Off Air X Therapy Works

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2:57Julia Samuel is a brilliant woman. She's an esteemed psychotherapist. She's a Times contributor. She's a presenter of the podcast Therapy Works, a podcast about mental health and some of life's challenges. She hears from both known and unknown voices. I've been on Therapy Works myself. I've really enjoyed it. It has now joined the Times podcast family. Welcome, Therapy Works. Julia spoke to Fee and I for an off-air Therapy Works mash-up episode. And we found out a little bit more about Julia and her podcast. So, Julia, why don't you tell us your exciting news? You're coming into our stable, I believe.

3:33I am coming into the Times deck of podcasts, which I am very excited about. And this is a weird connection. But I used to work in a big organisation, the NHS, and I worked with a charity, Child Bereavement UK, and I've been working on my own for about 10, 12 years. And although you really couldn't compare the organisations, coming into a system and an organisation where you can have a lanyard and... You can't beat a lanyard. I love a lanyard. You know, when I was at St Mary's, I got 10p off at Costa Coffee with my lanyard. and it beeped open doors. So as I walked into the... I don't get that here, do I?

4:21You won't get a lanyard, I'm afraid. No, but get a discount either, will I? No, it doesn't get the local part. Do I? Yeah. What do I need to show? You should have to say you work here. Okay. You can get money off in the Itzu, down by London Bridge Station. Okay. And Jane and I are here entirely for the discounted gym membership. Yes, well, I can see it's really doing the business. Be careful, Julia. You've only just joined the organisation. And we need picking up. We're very low on confidence. We need you to help. Obviously, you need a lot of therapy between you. You probably need couples therapy, actually.

4:55Oh, God. Do you know what? I love that you've mentioned that because sometimes I think we do. Actually, we've been working together now for 10 years and we work together every day. I spend more time with Jane than my partner. I mean, it's just a treat. She's your work wife. Well, my marriage only lasted 11 years. so we're very close dangerous territory close to a record can you um tell us about your podcast and what people might get out of it yes so the podcast is called therapy works and it invites well-known voices like mary berry who is the first episode who is an absolute i mean she's the most marvelous woman i want to be more mary berry and we ask them what is a particular challenge they are facing or have faced and then through the challenge that they talk about we learn about what they find difficult what supports them to manage it and what they've learned from it and I think you know the most personal is often the most universal so when they hear her talking about her son Will died we can understand what grief feels like because we recognize what she's saying in ourselves but the other thing about the podcast is that we also have unheard voices people who've just written in who are facing a particular challenge it may be that they have anxiety or that they can't find a job or that they have been diagnosed with cancer there is no limit to what people's challenges are and they're they are given as much presence and um time on the podcast as well-known voices and i don't think we hear i mean we do through your show actually but often i don't think we hear enough of kind of real people that we can really see ourselves through in that way as well i would completely agree with you on that and and of course the way that we hear from other people now is often when they're on send they're sending out their message on social media it's not a true reflection of ourselves and undoubtedly it's making it quite hard isn't it to be very honest about all of the stuff that actually most of us are going through i agree and i think the big thing about being on transmit is that if our kind of window of receive is really narrowed our capacity to be in relationship is also narrowed.

7:26So I think what's important about the conversations that I have with my guests is that you hear that by someone's, I mean, it's therapeutic, it isn't therapy, by someone kind of getting in touch, what they're finding difficult, voicing it and then seeing how I respond to it changes their relationship with it. And then they have an expanded understanding of themselves. And then they go to a different place themselves that they didn't even know was there. And so I think people can see the value of that for themselves. And then there's a third bit of the podcast, which is my two therapist daughters.

8:06One is a child psychotherapist, Emily, and the other is an adult psychotherapist, Sophie. They get to give me what they call feedback. and so they can really give me a hard time and wonder with me why I didn't do this or remind them of the, I can't swear, can I? No. I can. Shit things I did as their mother. And then I get to go, oh God, things I didn't remember. So that is where my humility has to come to the fore. and can um can anyone benefit from therapy because there are i mean lots of people much more i think well i think i'm right in saying many more people have it now than at any time in our in our history i would imagine yes but in human history in human history yes let's settle for that um can anybody benefit uh but or is it a mindset if you go into it thinking this is rubbish it probably won't work but if you're much more likely to embrace the concept chances are it'll be good for you So there's two very well-researched aspects of that.

9:14One is it's the quality of the relationship with the therapist that will really influence your outcome. But the other most significant aspect of therapy working is your investment in the therapy. Often parents are encouraged to go into therapy by their adult children. Are they? Yes. I genuinely didn't know that. Yes. Right. Are you surprised by that? I'm not that surprised, just because I think there's a better understanding of the benefit of therapy in young adults now than there ever has been before. Yes. And we often see our parents as being the source of our own anxiety. So if we're bold enough to understand therapy or think we understand therapy, I think we might be bold enough to go, you need it love yeah but also if you think about it because most of us are living longer your relationship with your children as adults is much longer than when they were children so sometimes it can actually be transformative for a whole family system but so the point i was going to make was that uh if you are open and invest in the therapy then you're much more likely to benefit from it.

10:34How do you find a good therapist? There isn't one form of accreditation, is there? So what are we looking for when we first start our search? So you do want a therapist that has accreditation. So there are different accreditations. There's UKCP, which is the psychotherapy accreditation. There's BACP, British Association of Psychotherapists. so you do want to see that someone has been trained and has an accredited qualification because someone it isn't someone can go and say i'm a counsellor and have done a three-week course so it's really important they see people who are accredited and should you test out a therapist yes okay so i so i i think you know often if you go to one therapist for whatever reason they may remind you of your worst teacher at school or there may be a rubbish therapist but that one doesn't work and don't let that put you off therapy you don't go and try on one dress and think I'm never going to wear a dress so go on and try the others until you find one that kind of suits you and you have therapy too don't you I do I I I have to have supervision so I have explain because I never really get this what is it what is this well I think we should all have debriefs and supervision actually i think people particularly who are in charge of the world should have supervision i imagine yeah but they're just not self-aware enough to have it are they that's the problem so i have three supervisors um i have a peer supervision so we are both kind of colleagues and we talk about that difficulty or things that we're doing with our clients then i have um someone who oversees my whole practice and to make sure that my balance is right that i'm not doing too much trauma so that I'm then not kind of fully available for my other clients and then because I am a trauma therapist I have as well I have an EMDR therapist as a supervisor and that is remind eye movement desensitization reprocessing so what they do is so I am the instrument of the relationship.

12:56And so if I'm psychologically kind of open and healthy by talking about a session with a client that was very difficult, if I have supervision on that, I work out, was that me? Was that them? Was something I need to learn about? What can I improve? I then go back into the relationship with a sort of clarity and an openness that means I work more effectively. And should you ask your therapist to give you an idea of the timeline of therapy or is it impossible to do that? You should definitely contract. So you should have an assessment session where you work out what is the issue I'm bringing, what do I want from therapy, what's the outcome I most expect from therapy and you would normally contract a number of sessions.

13:45It could be four sessions, six sessions and then you have a review and then you decide, have I got what I wanted? Am I done? Or you recontract. Because I think some people are fearful of embarking on therapy because they don't know when it will stop. And you do hear, and I think probably it's a bit of a pastiche of therapy, the people who cannot live without their therapist who are in therapy for their whole lives. Yes. I mean, I think different people and different needs require different types of therapy. So you could say that someone who sees someone at weekly therapist for the rest of their life, it's like going to the garage with your car and it's maintenance.

14:27It's like going to the gym and it's maintenance for your mind. and that 50 minutes really sets you up so that you don't mess up your love relationships, you work better at work because you have someone you can kind of take the residue and the muck of your life and put it down there and go out and live and be more open and effective. So, you know, for some people that maintenance is really useful. Most people can't afford that and most people have a particular issue, whether it's the death of a parent or a difficult relationship with their partner or with themselves or whatever it is that they just want to have a better understanding of and a different way of responding to because how they're living with it now isn't working for them.

15:15I think it was, was it last year that we did an event together here at the Times and there was a very big audience and a very involved audience. Yeah. Some of whom had been through some, God, I mean, some truly terrible experiences. Yes. And forgive me, I don't know whether you said it at the public event or to me earlier on before we started talking. This sounds a bit like my children. Hang on, I'm just going to tell you some terrible thing that you said. You were talking about the stiff upper lip because we're told now that you've got to get everything out there. You've got it's remote, you know, it doesn't matter.

15:48You can cry if you like, blah, blah, blah. Some people think you have to cry. And you actually said there isn't, it's not actually, the stiff upper lip wasn't so bad if it works for you so i have a very strong view about the which is that all of us need a stiff upper lip so that when we go to work or we go out in the world we have a kind of protection that enables us to operate what is not useful is a stiff upper lip in your most intimate closest relationships where you're not fully known and you're not honest and you aren't able to express what you feel you don't allow yourself to be known no so you're too defended and you don't allow yourself to be known i think there is real risk in not having a stiff upper lip and taking all of what you feel and pouring yourself out in places to people who don't care who are insensitive and will make you feel worse yeah and who will judge you for it and judge you for it and they'll call you something like you're pathetic or wet or a snowflake or a snowflake yeah we've got lots of questions for you from our listeners so we will get through as many as we can i think julia's answered the first question i think so too yeah so i hope uh whoever sent this in uh asking you about how to protect your own mental health how you protect your own mental health so i do that but i also do it by uh so how I think of myself as a system.

17:18Whatever goes into my system, what I listen to, what I watch, who I spend time with, how I move my body, what I eat, how much sleep I have, all of that helps me be more robust to do my job. So I exercise quite a lot. Sounds really boring, but I love exercising. And I watch funny things on telly, listen to funny things. I don't watch scary stuff, drive my husband mad. And I intentionally do things that give me joy, whether that's playing with my dog or being with friends that helps me stay robust another question comes in I love this one we will allow you to remain anonymous how do I move on from a friend of 10 years who I support but they lash out whenever I share my own challenges well it's interesting to call that person a friend when relationships are relationships they're reciprocal so you co you both one and one should make three in a relationship so if you have a relationship with this person who can't respond to you in a way that is kind and empathic and sensitive and doesn't listen to you but actually judges you I would really think about whether this is a relationship that you want to go on investing and maybe this is someone that you can see and spend time with and you don't have to have a big dramatic kind of bust up.

18:46But, you know, where you put your time and attention is where you get your outcome. Do you want to be putting your precious time into that person? I think friendship is often the hardest thing to manage in your life, isn't it? We almost have many rules about parenting, many rules about partnerships, very few rules about friendships. Yes, I do. And also I think they're the sort of untold love story. that when we have really good friendships, they can save us when nothing else can. They're so important. And they are a real predictor of our happiness and even our longevity. Look at your friendship, work friendship.

19:26Well, as Fia says, it's our most lucrative friendship so far. And we just own that. I mean, what is it? Good. We've got an extra incentive. One and one makes more than three for you. You said it, Julia. um this is another anonymous question i got divorced about a year ago and i have met a wonderful new partner but i'm scared of getting hurt again i mean that's that's the human experience isn't it is there anything you can do about that so i mean acknowledging it is really good that you feel that fear and once you've been hurt you kind of can't not know that you can be hurt but also don't run at this or run away from it go slowly like be gentle with your heart and go step by step and as much as you can be open and honest with the person who's wonderful you know say i really like you and i'm really scared and so kind of build this relationship slowly together and then you will be able to build a relationship that you have trust and love and connection and they might be feeling exactly the same way exactly especially if it's a kind of later in life thing they're bound to have had a relationship before so you can ask them about that too that's very good for you could maybe do my job no i absolutely i so couldn't do your job i don't also i don't want to do because of the lucrative thing oh yes that's true that wouldn't work and also if you look at some of my decisions you don't really you don't take any of my advice at all um this one i think is a really really relevant one i have severe anorexia and i'm struggling to cope with my mum being on weight loss jabs there is a lot there that that's a lot isn't it i mean i go in different directions with this so first of all how we uh this isn't to blame at all but what we think about if we have anorexia is the environment that you were brought up in that has given you a particular relationship with food or your body and weight and control.

21:27And so maybe in this family, she was influenced by a mother who had a kind of complex relationship with food and her body. So as a response, what I would think about is the two of them maybe going for a walk and talk and her saying to her mum, can we talk about how we both relate to food that we both have a complicated relationship with food what I'm aiming at saying and saying like it's stuck at the bottom of my boot is try and get what's underneath the water line to be open and to discuss between them and maybe even go to a kind of couples therapist to talk about or family therapist to talk about what how how they eat what what their relationship with food is what does that i mean i have not been asked that question before but i i was talking to a child psychologist the other day i have a kind of um professionals meet up and she was saying she is really worried about um and jaro and all the jabs affecting a whole generation of young people because they're being brought up in families where half the parents don't eat yeah because they're on the jabs right okay yeah i think there's so much about those weight loss pills that we've yet to understand the consequences of just i mean apart from anything else juna it is just sending out the message yet again that uh thin equals good yeah and i don't know i mean there's a lot of evidence that it doesn't so i understand if you need to be on the weight loss jabs for your health but for your vanity i don't know and that that thing of how you your internal world is far more profound and important to how you live in your external world than your waist size so begin to pay attention and nurture that rather than thinking it's, you know, a clothes size.

23:38Here's a good one. What is a good... I mean, if you can answer this question, you basically solved every issue on earth. Anonymous asks, what's a good technique to stop overthinking and spiralling? OK, I sent this in. I'm asking on behalf of the it's 20 past three in the morning community and you wake up because you need the loo and then you just start thinking and you should never start thinking at that time. So there are a couple of cognitive behavioral therapy little tools that I can suggest. One of them is called change the channel. So you've got your spiraling video of, oh, I mucked up yesterday or I hate so and so.

24:19And put that on the image. You don't say TV screen, I do. your device and take a breath change the channel and put on your device an image that is soothing and calming is it the sea is it mountains is it you know a warm experience take a breath and then move your attention somewhere else so read your book or go for a little walk and then that because that stops the spiral does that make sense you don't look very convinced well i'm thinking it's the middle of the night okay well fair enough so the first bit works yeah but when you get stuck in bed the thing is to get out of bed don't so okay sleep hygiene if you've woken up and you haven't fallen back to sleep after 20 minutes the best advice is to get out of bed, go into another room, and do something that distracts your mind with a low light, not your phone, book of poetry, something like that.

25:31So then you do the device exercise and then read your poetry and then go back to bed. And it changes the channel. Or you could just call me. Will you be on your phone nearby? He wouldn't answer. No, I'll be on my phone. I'll just say, oh, for heaven's sake, I'll just shut up and go to sleep soon in the morning. You could try. I could try. You still don't look very impressed by the way. No, it's not. This is just my face. Dissatisfied client. Yeah. The podcast, is it for the therapy positive or is it for the therapy curious? People who think, oh, you know what, I'd quite like to dip my toes into this environment.

26:12I'd want to know more about it. I think it's the human being curious. Okay. Because we love hearing other people's stories. We love hearing how people are in the world. And this is a really good source of stories. Well, it is, isn't it? Because ultimately what your podcast does is, because I've been on it, is it draws out things that you didn't even know you were that concerned about. Yes. But it turns out you are. And things that you realise that actually you were better at than you realised as well. Some people feel me feeling, oh, I didn't really, yeah, I did that. Yeah, that's good. Well, that's maybe something you could do at 20 past three in the morning.

26:55You could listen to yourself on Julia's podcast. That's a good idea. Thank you very much. That's problem solved. Welcome properly to The Times is Stable. What a fantastic edition. Thank you very much indeed, Julia. I'm thrilled to be part of it. And thank you for inviting me onto your wonderful show. Great pleasure. Now put your lanyard on. And go and get a cup-price drink. Congratulations.

27:36You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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