Oh, we can't bear affected young people.

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2:29you've got your coat on i've got my coat on because being a a woman like yourself born in the audio world grown up in the audio world find myself in a television studio and i didn't think to check that my slightly it's not a see-through white blouse but it's definitely uh it's it's of a thread count that is allowing my underwear to show through okay well nobody wants that nobody wants that it's not really why you come to our podcast so i'm might be i'm keeping my jacket on possibly for the rest of the day okay yeah so i'm sorry about that everybody no don't thank you for drawing attention no no but your hair's looking extremely neat and we are gonna i'll be talking about gray hair today i can't remember whether we're doing no we're not not No, we might pop that into a full roundup in our audio-only version, which this is still visualised.

3:25It is. A bumper bundle of visualisation for you this week. And later on today, you are interviewing... Laura Koonsberg. Laura Koonsberg. So she has got her first book out. She always said that she would never write a book. She is the... She is the BBC's political editor. Right. And I think as the opening question, we need to establish why now? Why write the book now? and she is explaining, it's called Pay Attention and she is explaining what's happened to politics in the last 20 years in this country and it is a superb run through everything that's gone on which we've seen in plain sight, Jane but I think she expresses it so eloquently.

4:07The way that everything has speeded up, I mean we are boiled frogs, aren't we, in the saucepan of democracy at the moment. That's good, yes. We have just had so many different prime ministers, particularly in the last six to eight years. So when you read about just, you know, 20 years ago, she talks about the implications of the financial crash. To me, I think, oh, my goodness, that's a whole lifetime ago. It's not. It's actually, you know, in very recent history. So it's absolutely brilliant. It's really jam packed full of everything that's happened, but also all of the people that she's met along the way.

4:45And we'll have plenty to talk about. She's got some very interesting little vignettes about... Quite disturbing revelation. Well, about the way that she's been treated in Westminster, including the one, you know, that has made the headlines, which was a meeting that she thought she was attending in a hotel room at a party conference because that's just what happens. You know, you want to go and see a minister or a junior minister or a spad and they're going to tell you something very interesting. That kind of stuff happens all the time. You know, she's a really proper, serious journalist. She doesn't portray herself as a flirt or a tease or anything like that.

5:23Not that any woman would ever be asking for it, even if they were. But, you know, she is a serious person. and she went to this man's room only to find him and his partner, lady partner, expecting her to be part of something a little bit different to a briefing, a political briefing. Right, okay. I mean, come on, Jane. But there are lots of examples, actually. There is a minister she refers to as still, whenever she sees him, he kisses her on the forehead. Gosh, that's an extraordinary intimate thing to do. Isn't it weird? Something that most people do with their children. Yes. Okay, quite creepy.

6:00Yeah. And when can people hear this? This will be going out on Thursday afternoon on the show. Okay, and it will be part of Thursdays? It will be part of Thursdays Off Air. Yes. And the afternoon show on Times Radio. Yeah, which is two till four. Just for a moment there, it just escaped me. I was just telling you earlier that my central heating came on unexpectedly early and I get very grumpy when it comes on of its own volition. I've mentioned this before, it really annoys me. I like to be the person to put it on. I forgot to turn it off last night and it came on and I can't stand it. Okay, so you're a bit dehydrated, aren't you?

6:34I am a bit dehydrated. And are you still feeling the benefit of last week? Hugely, yes. And we had a lovely email from somebody saying, I think they've been on a juice fast. Yes, I've got that here. Could you do that for me, darling? Yes, I can. It's from Anonymous. Your mention of Fee's enemy in the bathroom at her wellness retreat retreat in Germany last week, brought to mind my annual detox in which off-air plays a key role. I'm sure your listeners enjoy many diverse locations for listening to the pod, but this may be among the most original. Now, the enemy is, of course, the enema that was supplied to you, but you didn't make use of it.

7:14No, this was the DIY one in your room. Yeah. Anything DIY, I couldn't do. It would be very unwise. Please don't. Yes, I won't. Anyway, we're back with Anonymous. In a rustic location in southern Spain, 12 of us undertake a week's juice fast each spring. We drink three juices and one clear broth each day with yoga, meditation and various gentle therapies interspersed between. It is essentially a deep gut cleanse, which is helped by self-administered gentle enemas. Oh, yes. I mean, I'm not sure I'm at ease even with that juxtaposition of gentle and enema. I'm not really. Anyway, for best results, it's beneficial to listen to something soothing during the process.

8:02So there's no prizes for guessing which podcast I save up for this unusual task. Oh, my God. Your warm and witty discourses are just the job to feel relaxed and get things moving. The coffee enema halfway through the week induces a definite high. It's not a bit as revolting as it sounds, says Anonymous, and the ultimate aim is to transform the nervous system from the sympathetic, fight or flight, to the parasympathetic, rest and restore, essentially a detox of both body and mind. The overall health benefit is a rebooted immune system and we all leave feeling revived and refreshed, although we do talk about food a lot.

8:48I'm curious to know if Fi emerged from her week brimming with zest and vigor and new resolutions, or was it all a bit wacky woo-woo? Well, you just said you still feel good. Yes. Yeah. I emerged definitely feeling refreshed, and it's exactly that change that the place that I went to is trying to achieve, to take you out of basically being on receive as your body for stress, pollution, hassle, you know, low energy, all the rest of it, to being receive of restorative, calm, and just a more kind of actually pleasing diet and frame of mind. So has it changed daily habits? It probably will, yes. If I could carry on eating my boiled potatoes for lunch every day, then I would.

9:48But they don't really do a boiled potato in the canteen here. Not a boiled. No, they do a baked. They do a very nice baked. We've got good jackets. We've got very good jackets, yeah. But you said boiled potatoes and you sent me a message about that. And I thought, well, but are they little new potatoes? Because they can be delicious. No, so they were quite big. Oh. And I had a lot of conversations about the potatoes, actually, with the very nice staff at the Lancer Hoff. And they are local potatoes, organic potatoes. They were almost orange in colour. And they were so buttery as a taste rather than covered in butter as a thing.

10:23I was going to say, they weren't slathered in butter. No, they weren't swimming in butter at all, but they tasted really buttery. And I probably had two potatoes about that big. This is where visualisation actually helps. Yes, absolutely. About that big. Let's hear it for visualisation. Yes. For my lunch with some little greens on top. Oh, the world greens. Yep, and a couple of slices of protein or a little bit of sheep's cheese. And it was just lovely. Do you know what I think is really rare? And this is what our correspondent is definitely alluding to as well. We often can't stop, can we? You know, it would be nice to think that you can just put your life on pause for a week and do it your own way.

11:06It's almost impossible to do. Nearly all of us have got some kind of responsibility to somebody else, whether it's colleagues or people we need to care for. And just the way that we live and work means that we need an awful lot of energy to get around London, you know, commute to wherever it is that you're working. So just that chance to be in one place, Jane. You've reminded me of the chap who docked yesterday after that 28-year walk. So this is a guy from, well, he's from Hull. He's from Hull. And he had walked for 28 years. You and I were a little bit puzzled. Well, I think we'll just, I read a number of news reports about this gentleman's achievement.

11:50And by the way, he's ex-forces. There might be all sorts of reasons why he decided that this was something he had to do. and so I never, I mean I've not served in the military, I'm just making that clear and I don't know what experiences he might have had. Nevertheless I think we might find out a little more as the years progress about the impact of his adventure on the rest of his family. I mean his poor mum obviously was desperate to see him, of course she was. His son had flown out to see him I think on a couple of occasions but the son was quoted as saying you know it's not it's not been it's not been the easiest set of circumstances and yet there's a man who clearly was free to pursue that incredible dream and to have that remarkable adventure and it takes guts and it takes huge amounts of wherewithal and I absolutely honor that but find me the woman who has been able to walk for 28 years By the way, it also, of course, wouldn't have been deemed safe for a woman to attempt that adventure.

12:58You'd have been told you were taking your life in your hands, wouldn't you? Yeah. You can't assume that the kindness of strangers will see you through. I mean, obviously, most strangers will be very kind, but some may not be. Yes. Well, the evidence and the statistics would suggest that you're not going to be out of trouble for 28 years as a solo woman traveling around the world. so I completely take your point. Yeah, I just... I don't want to carp about him though because I do understand that I do sound like an old bat. Yes, and you're right. There could be all kinds of, you know, very, very deep-seated reasons.

13:34But, I mean, we've talked about this before a bit, haven't we? Just the celebration of the adventurer, both you and I find bewildering. You know, I don't look at a mountain and feel that as a tiny, tiny human being, I need to conquer it And I've never understood that term, you know, when people conquer Everest. You don't. You haven't. You've gone up it. It doesn't change Everest. Everest remains the same. Still going to be there. So that really, I find it, I just find it bewildering, bemusing. I am not bewitched by it at all. And I find it a really arrogant term as well. Well, it's Carl, isn't it?

14:17It's the chap who's done the amazing war. I'm really interested in what happens to him now. I think he's doing a speaking tour. And we might even be able to get him on, actually. Yeah, no, I'd love to. I'd love to. But as far as I have read, he's not saying that he's conquered the world by walking around it. He's not making that clear. No, his motivation seemed to be very different. But, yeah, I mean, inevitably, there's somebody at home if you go and do all of those. They're picking up the slack. huge daring do things you know during that 28 years chances are that his mum might have needed something picking up from the chemist you know well I think his son might have needed somebody on the touchline maybe yes the metaphorical one and the physical one all of that yeah anyway we're not ones to criticise

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16:35Right, Peter Granger, Audiobooks Appreciation. This one comes in from Gemma. I'm not having one of these coffees again. Are they not nice? No, they're cold. I was a bit surprised. I mean, it's a capsule, isn't it? It's a capsule, but why is it cold? Anyway, I don't know. Well, because the milk was cold and the capsule, it never comes. I mean, it's not boiling water, it's boiled water. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I'm sure somebody will be able to get you one, darling. Yeah. In comes Gemma again. I love books, but I struggled to prioritise sitting down to physically read. But in the last decade, I've become an avid lover of novel consumption via audiobook.

17:14And Gemma is doing what lots of people are doing and getting stuck in to the DC Smith Kingslake novels, crime fiction books written by Peter Granger, real name Robert Partridge. Now, you asked who it was who was doing the Audible version, and it's Gildert Jackson. Have you come across Gildert Jackson before? It's a man. Yes. Gemma says, the narrator of these books is just sublime. The voice he uses for DC Smith and the other characters just seem so right. In general, I'm frequently in awe of what a fantastic talent an excellent audiobook reader delivers, especially when there is a demand to flip between multiple characters.

17:57so a shout out to this medium of art as well as specifically for the genius of this writing uh etc etc uh like fear i hope he keeps writing more that was one of the notes and queries that i had to look up overnight after yes very very busy terribly sorry so robert partridge is writing at the moment um there isn't a new one out the latest one some sort of justice was published to kind of, to illuminate the fact that his entire back catalogue has now come to Penguin. So don't be fooled. You know, when you get to the end of a book and there's a read the first chapter of the next thing, don't read that.

18:40Because if you're starting at the beginning, some sort of justice is right at the end. It's the latest book he's published. Okay. So keep it back, kids. It's a warning to people. Keep it back. Other notes and queries. Liz Truss, Book Sales. Yes. Oh, yes. You have done a lot of work. So we have sold more than five times the amount we have in our book. What, Jane Garvey and Fee Glover? Yes. More than, we are times five and then some of Liz Truss's oeuvres. So far. Yes. Yeah, I mean, this one could be a belter. Yeah, absolutely right. Absolutely. It's called Bank Job, isn't it? Which is quite a good title.

19:17Well, yes. Yeah. Yeah, there's quite a lot in Laura Coonsworth's book about just what we are paying for now because of the incredible imbecilic nature of some people who've been in charge of this country. What's the problem that there? Okay, which reminds me, of course, it's the midterms today in the States. So there's going to be a thorough debrief, I'm sure, across all media overnight tonight and throughout tomorrow in the next couple of days. Well, President Trump is already saying, you know, the midterms always, they're always bad for the sitting president. So, I mean, he's seen the numbers and obviously they're not good.

19:57Well, he'll take it well, won't he? Whatever happens. Yes, looking forward to finding out what goes on there. She said, sounding as neutral as possible in difficult circumstances. Now, have you watched This City is Ours? No, I haven't. The new series. The new series? No, I haven't either because I can't do, I haven't finished Blue Lights yet. The third series of Blue Lights. And I can't do both at the same time because I love them both. And weirdly, they seem to have arrived on my televisual shores at almost exactly the same time. Don't really get it. You go for months with nothing to watch. And then all of a sudden, abundant riches come your way.

20:36Anyway, so I'm loving Blue Lights. Have you seen this? I have. That whole business. The episode where you find out about Jerry and Sandra getting together is heartbreaking. And then, of course, it leads on to, yeah, I can't wait. Do you know what I couldn't believe about? Because this is the final ever series of the lights. Yes, they've said, you know, this is it. Right. So I don't know whether the writers had always known. This is series five, isn't it? Or four? I think it's only three. No, I think it might be more than that. Anyway, I don't know whether the writers always knew that there would be this huge narrative arc and props to them if they did.

21:18But even more so if they didn't, to have been able to pick up a story, go back and infill with the benefit of hindsight in such a convincing way. I've never seen anything like it. Well, I was amazed because how did they make the characters look younger? I was intrigued by that too. They did. And they did look, I mean, not substantially different, but you went with it, didn't you? Very much so. You absolutely did. And if they can do that on Blue Lights, why can't they do it here? That's a really good point for you. Really good point. Come on. God's sake, what's holding you back? But no, it was very, very believable.

21:54And it's just really touching. But every single tiny bit of the story then hark back to what had happened before. It's just incredible writing. It's absolutely. Yes, let's just own. It's Declan Lawn, isn't it? And I'm afraid I don't know the name of the other, should know the writers of... You keep talking and I'll look it up because we do need to get a wiggle on because I did want to talk about hoarding, which is such a complicated subject. And the reason for that we were talking about it last week was that Eve and I had seen a story in The Times about a woman who'd inherited a property which felt like an enormous slice of good fortune because she'd been left a flat in a dear friend's will.

22:38Yeah. And it was a flat in a beautiful part of London and it was valued at about half a million quid. So this lady not unreasonably thought, well, this is just how fantastic. The only problem was, and it was a huge problem, was that the woman who'd owned the flat was a hoarder. And so it actually cost this poor woman a lot of money to clear the flat before she could even begin to think of selling it or even living there herself. I can't remember what she wanted to do. But it just got us thinking about hoarding, which is a subject that I think impacts more people than we realise. And we've had a lot of emails.

23:10They're very detailed because this, as I'm learning, is a hugely complicated subject. This is from Anonymous. And she just says, you've got me up at three in the morning because I just felt compelled to drop you a line when you started discussing hoarding. I've often been tempted to write you about it. But I'd always talk to myself and say, well, no, they won't be interested because it won't be relatable. So my ears pricked up tonight when you actually brought up the subject. My mum is 80 and she's been a hoarder my entire life. And I think this is quite typical. She goes through the same cycle repeatedly.

23:45Neighbours complaining, housing, social services getting involved, me being dragged in to clean and clear the place. I'm an only child. And then everyone forgetting her because now that the place is clear.

23:59I told you I was ill. I'm not laughing. Are you OK? You want me to pick up the email. What have you got to? Hang on a sec. Oh, dear. Halfway down on the blue highlighting. Because now the place is clear. There are other more pressing demands on their resources. OK, right. This is where visualisation doesn't work. I think that was the moment across the divides. The first time we were evicted, I was 11. The first time I did a deep clean of her flat on my own, I was 17. I'm now 59 I won't bore you with every experience of those 50 years but I will share just two who's come in? oh it's young Eve it's casualty thanks darling do you want to pop in front of the camera give everybody a treat don't say they'll have a treat thank you very much it's a proper coffee we criticise Eve we don't mean to thank you I think I might feign hunger now.

25:05Can I have a hot dog? No, what would I be after? Well, you'd like a potato, wouldn't you? Yes, I'd like a buttery orange boiled potato from Germany, please, Eve. You can manage that before the end of the podcast. I'll hold your breath. In 2014, my mum had to be rehomed because her house was declared unfit for human habitation. and despite the fact that I had a husband, my own business and three kids aged 20, 18 and 16 at the time, it was somehow seen as my job to take the lead in clearing the house and to deal with social workers, doctors and other professionals. It took teams of people including me months to clear the house and the housing association had to take it back to bare brick and remove all of the plaster and floorboards.

25:49They kindly gave her new accommodation and given that I live 100 miles from Liverpool. I pleaded with them to monitor her closely. They didn't. Over the last 12 years, the cycle has repeated more frequently. And each time, meetings take place to assess mum. Every time, without exception, it's deemed that she has capacity. And therefore, when she declines help, it cannot be forced upon her. Wow. That's a slice of life, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, to be a 17-year-old and having to deal with that is colossal and something I'd never heard that experience before. Yeah. So thank you for telling us about it.

26:26And I'm just so sorry. And actually a little further on in the email, she goes on to say, and we probably haven't got time to read everything out, but her mum goes into hospital and she turned up at hospital with just what she was standing up in. And after quite a few weeks in there, she had something like 11 bin bags of stuff. Oh my goodness. that she had accumulated because she'd made online purchases from her hospital bed. And, yeah, it's a really, really challenging set of circumstances. So, I mean, I would imagine that the way that we live now makes hoarding an even more, makes people more vulnerable to it for exactly that reason, that actually you can just now, in the privacy of your own home, click, click, click, click, click, click.

27:15And we all do it to an extent. And you're buying things for 30p on Vinted or whatever it is in a way that actually you would have to leave the house to go somewhere to bring things back in. So, wow. Gosh, we don't understand enough, do we? Thank you for picking that up. And I think I've recovered sufficiently. Here's another anonymous one. And it's an explanation, really, of what goes on. You ask people to get in touch if they had any experience of hoarding and it really touched a nerve. I grew up in a hoarded house and I can tell you it affects everything. The first thing to say is it's not about valued possessions or memories.

27:53People hoard total rubbish like used yogurt containers and pamphlets. I think it stems from a fear of chucking out something that you might need but the irony is that if you ever do need anything you wouldn't be able to find it. You also can't make memories or have any possessions of value because the conditions of the house ruin even things like precious photos and there are often mice and bugs. Nothing feels safe and there are no limits as to how bad it can get, even if you think you've reached them. People say they're a little bit of a hoarder, but it's nothing like that. You can't enter rooms, you can't see the stove in the kitchen, you can't see beds, you can't do your schoolwork or find important documents.

28:36You can't even find a free bit of space to rest your contact lens case while you take your lenses out at night. If somebody's ill, maybe they won't be discharged from hospital. No one can ever come round. You end up feeling like an extension of the stuff because the outside world feels unreal. Sometimes it feels as though the stuff is loved more than you. I was told that normal practical things that were given to me as a child were not mine. nothing was ultimately I was also blamed for the being so much stuff as if having a child means that anyone needs to live like that I did try to help but it was impossible you have to pretend it's normal and that is impossible too I just I mean that to grow up in that environment and it's brilliantly expressed by the way um to that uh email you are a wonderful writer and perhaps I don't know if you if you do it for a living but you should certainly think about it as an adult she goes on to say i am in a good situation i own my own hope i'm not a hoarder however i'm totally living in the shadow of how i had to grow up i do have quite bad allergies i'm so used to not even seeing my environment that i forget that i can control it and make choices so there are there are knock-on effects throughout the rest of the the child's life and i haven't thought about either yeah absolutely would be wouldn't there i mean she does say it's just an incredibly private problem and of course it is because I mean there are lots of people who can't invite friends into the family home for a whole string of reasons associated with what might be going on there and that is the reason I hadn't really thought of that you know you might actually be the child of a hoarder so it's just unthinkable that you'd allow someone to see how you live yeah it's awful isn't it it is it is and not talked about often enough no and and and it is I remember when it was put on the list of proper recognised mental health conditions by the WHO and there was quite a lot of coverage of that and it's one of those conditions as well isn't it Jane that I think people can be very mocking about so you've got that kind of I'm a bit of a hoarder which goes into the same category as people who say I'm a bit on the spectrum and if you're looking after someone who is properly on the spectrum you're not nobody else is a bit on the spectrum you You shouldn't do that.

31:01But it enables us to not take seriously hoarding, doesn't it, as well? I think we don't want to really think about it. No. I'll just do one more because, as I say, this is a really, really serious subject and it's not an uncomplicated one. This is also anonymous. My personal experience is this. I worked with someone for a couple of years and after she left, we kept in contact and we were friendly outside work. I suppose we probably caught up three or four times a year. She was intelligent. She was feisty. She was compassionate. She lived on her own and I really enjoyed her company. She seemed to have lots of interests and a good social life.

31:35On one meeting, she told me that she'd been diagnosed with cancer and it was terminal. She didn't have any family. She was an only child. And although her dad was still alive, he was very elderly. So I said I'd help in whatever way I could. And alongside another friend, managed the many hospital visits and offered emotional support. She got taken into hospital just before I was going on holiday. And when I came back, the other person supporting her said that she'd written us a letter that we should read together. It was incredibly sad, telling us that she'd let her house get into a bit of a state.

32:08And could we help her? We decided to spend the day there while she was still in hospital. We took buckets and mops and cleaning products and plastic bags, expecting it to take an afternoon or maybe a day at most. when we got there we quickly realized there was a bigger problem going on we simply couldn't barely get in the front door and it was going to be impossible to do enough to allow her to come home we were so shocked as she'd always appeared so capable held a job of some importance down and was always well turned out well in the end they had to get social services involved and And it goes on from there.

32:44It's quite the saga, as all these stories are. And I just, I'm amazed, actually. I mean, obviously, it's incredible, isn't it, V? Not everybody in Britain listens to this podcast. No? More for them. Well, indeed. But we've had so many emails on this subject. It really is something that is... Yeah, well, I don't think people talk about it at all. And for exactly the reasons that those emails have revealed, that, you know, the people around a hoarder, you know, can't really explain it to other people. You can't invite somebody back to your house. You wouldn't want them to see it. Perhaps it's something that you quite rightly leave behind when you shut the door yourself.

33:25So it's a very, it's a very hidden thing, isn't it? It really is. And I bet social services, blimey. I mean, if you're confronted with that and you have to find the people to clear out all of those possessions, I mean, that's a minefield as well, isn't it? Oh, it really is. And it's not cheap either. Yeah. And at some point you're going to have to be, you're going to be the person who decides what should be kept and what shouldn't. And I mean, you know, that's difficult enough as you're finding out, you know, dealing with somebody who's died, you're not quite sure. No, you're not. Which is the imperative ornament and which is the one, you know, that could go in the bin.

34:04Yes, quite possibly. Some of them could. So yes, that is so complicated. The oddest thing we've found so far amongst my dad's possessions is my maternal grandmother's World War II identity card. Brilliant. Brilliant. And I'm not inclined to throw that out. No, you should keep that forever. I'll keep that. I've got my mum's World War II identity card, but now I've got the companion. Yes. So I could put them in. Oh, and that will be of so much meaning to future generations. Well, one hopes so. Oh, no, it will be. It will be. yeah yeah it's hard to chuck that in the skip isn't it yeah no definitely but trust me some stuff will be going in the skip I think that's fair enough

34:48would you like to finish on some greyhound tarot tingles I we haven't had enough spooky content this Halloween adjacent god this is I'm sorry by the way the coffee is very very good is it very good Yeah, it's really good. I didn't get one. No, well... Eve just assumed squeaky wheels get the most grease. Eve, you just think, nah, she'll be all right. Yeah. Well, you're younger, you see. For the sake. What? She just said, good to say. Let's speak again. You've got to get your orders in before the episode begins. I can't disturb the recording. This is magic happening right now. Yes, OK. I can't disturb it.

35:28No, but you did disturb the recording because you brought only one of us a coffee. I'm sorry. Because I was visibly and audibly ailing. Fee, you already seem so perky. Just keep up the invigorating week in a spa. That's very true. And actually, I'm making my own coffee here. And I'm making it in a very specific way at the moment as well. How are you? Is that something you learned last week? No, not at all. I've got one of those, put it on the stove pots. Do you call them mocha pots? I think they're M-O-K-K-A. Oh, Adam Patterson was the other writer of Blue Lights. Thank you. Declan Law and Adam Patterson.

36:05Both brilliant. Yeah, so I'm doing the little stove pot coffee thing. And actually, it does taste an awful lot better. Lovely. I think you're allowed to go down a coffee rabbit hole in middle age. Oh, absolutely you are. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'll allow you that one. Okay, that's good to know. I think in the younger person, it's a bit of an affectation. Oh, we can't bear affected young people. affected middle-aged and later life people. It's absolutely fine. It's forgiven, isn't it? You've earned the right. Because it's kind of like, oh, just, yeah, it's best that she goes batty over that.

36:39You've served your time, you've towed the line. Now is the moment. Okay, so I'm getting a bit daft about coffee. Hello, Fee, Jane and Eve. This morning I was listening to the interview with Bonnie Gamas about her latest book from the 13th of October podcast. Yes, I am a little behind, but I like to have a few in reserve so I don't run out. Towards the end of the interview, as Fi and Bonnie were talking about greyhounds, I decided to get out my tarot desk, give it a shuffle, and draw today's card from the top of the pack. Imagine my surprise when I turned over the card, ten of pentacles. Blimey.

37:13I know. I think I've had that, but I used the ointment and it was fine. I think you can get a vaccine against it now. Oh, thank God. And saw it had an image of a woman in a long flowing robe with a white greyhound. Spooky. I didn't know that. Could you get white greyhounds? Yes, you can. Yeah, there are many, many white greyhounds. Yeah. It made me tingle out of all of the cards I could select from the deck. It reflected the conversation that the two of you were having as I was listening. Further tingles came when I looked up the interpretation of the card, the general meaning being to create lasting security and to reflect on what you're building, not just for yourself, but for others.

37:51As I've just started to gather items from my family to use in emergencies, such as power cuts and interrupted water supplies. Yes. I enclose a couple of photos of the tarot card and its meaning regards Karen Eastbourne Sussex. Oh, shit. Sorry, I just spilled my coffee on the chair. Oh, this is a new chair as well. I know, I know. Sorry, I've had such... Karen, this is very, very spooky indeed. Very, very spooky and delightful. And thank God it was that card because that's what really spooks me about tarot. What was the card again? Just remind me. The card is the Ten of Pentacles. Yeah. And it's got an image of a woman in a long flowing robe with a white greyhound.

38:35Okay. And what does it signify? It signifies that you're creating lasting security, not just for yourself but for others. Oh. So we are gifting the hive. Yeah. Yeah. The amateur tarot card reader is a danger. I went on a hen night once and somebody brought along their tarot cards and they were new to tarot cards and they said, let's all do our tarot cards. Oh, no, let's not. No, because the first tarot card that was turned over was death. Yeah. You know, the second one was the devil. It's just like, no. And then the lights go out. Let's not do this. Everyone's had too much Prosecco. No, but interestingly, the marriage didn't last.

39:16But I would also say statistically, you know, you would turn over 45 % of cards and find that the marriage didn't last. So I just popped that one in there. Anyway, if you're going on a hen weekend this weekend, ignore what Fee's just said. No, have a lovely time. And have a great time. But don't, you know, don't mess with that stuff. Don't mess with it. I am very resistant to that. I think you tamper with that gear at your peril. Yes. But Karen obviously knows what she's doing and has looked into it. I keep going, it's the pen of tentacles or the ten of pen, what was it? The ten of pentacles. Okay.

39:55I don't really know what that means. No. Jane, but it's definitely not the pen of tentacles. Well, let's, I mean, how is Nancy? She's okay. She's a bit, we call her bony N now. She's very, very bony. And she does a little walk in the morning, does what a walk's intended to do, and then she just turns around and goes home. So I was striding out this morning because it's a beautiful day. here in London, and it's our favourite season, isn't it? It's autumn, and it's really lovely in our local parks at the moment. It's actually a particularly beautiful autumn, and is that because of the drought? I think it is, isn't it?

40:29It's because of the lack of moisture in the soil, which changes the colour of the leaves. So I thought, yeah, I can bound out for a lovely 45-minute walk, but Nance was having absolutely none of it. Eight minutes later, we were back home. Eight minutes? Come on, Nance, you laugh. but she's she's still being lovely so okay well that that is really all that matters now just very briefly um the other day eve was talking about we were talking about the pedestrianization of oxford street yes and uh i haven't visited the new pedestrianized street of dreams have you no god i haven't been to oxford street since nobody in london goes to oxford no since we left the BBC.

41:11No, exactly. It's a place that if you live in the city generally speaking you wouldn't go near would you? No. Not in a month of Sundays with a bank holiday tacked on. No. No. Exactly. I mean it's not to say I love a John Lewis and I love a Selfridges visit every now and again but I am talking once every couple of years if I'm honest. Anyway, Eve said we were talking about the cyclists who have They're slightly ruining it aren't they? Well they've ignored. Yeah. And I'm going to reach out here, overreach, and suggest that the cyclists who are ignoring the rules are probably not female cyclists, but they could be.

41:49Some of them might be. Bloody hell, love. I tell you what, you've released the ten of misandry today. Yeah, I know I have. If our radio listener Mike were listening, he'd certainly have a complaint about that, wouldn't he? Oh, Mike complains every day. Literally, as soon as we go on air, Mike complains. Mike basically does not want to have to listen to two women in the afternoon. And here's the deal, Mike, don't. And then we won't listen to you. Don't give him the option. No, don't remind him or perhaps even tell him that he doesn't need to listen to us. Mike's on his own planet. Anyway, we shouldn't really give him airtime, should we, actually?

42:28Let's not give him the oxygen. I don't think he's listening to this, darling. Well, if he is, he's a real sucker for punishment. Anyway, Eve was wondering whether a large group of runners she'd seen setting off on Oxford Street the previous evening were also breaking the pedestrianisation rule. But in fact, our emailer here wonders whether it was a female only run, one of the Let's Lift the Curfew events, which she's runs taking place across the country this week following the clock change on the Sunday. and it's a campaign from This Girl Can which aims to end the curfew imposed, a supposed curfew, that's in speech marks, imposed on female runners because of safety fears as the evenings get darker and to highlight the impact this has on women's health and well-being during the winter.

43:18Well, actually, I spoke to Eve about this earlier and actually it was not an all-female group of runners she saw. It was, in fact, a male group of runners she saw, which is why she mentioned it. So it wasn't part of that campaign because we'd be the last podcast to diss a female running group going down Oxford Street or going anywhere. But it is interesting that this time of year, it does start to become, well, a conversation you have to have with yourself about whether you're okay to go out after a certain time. And we still live that way and we shouldn't. It's just annoying. And Tanya is the emailer.

43:57She says, I've done many a 4 a.m. solo walk home from the pub back in my child free days. But my confidence has lessened in recent years. And I just can't shake the fact that I do feel vulnerable running alone on a dark evening. I also like to listen to music or podcasts while I run one earphone in, but not two. But I don't feel I can do that when it's dark because of the increased need to listen out for approaching footsteps behind me. So the enjoyment just isn't there in the same way. Meanwhile, off my male partner will go for a 9pm stroll to the corner shop in the middle of winter without giving it a second thought.

44:35Well, it's not the first time we've referenced this and it won't be the last, but it's just, it is annoying, Tanya. I understand where you're coming from. Yes, yeah. I think we did some good work, though, when we talked about it before. I think lots of people did come forward, didn't they, with a more kind of positive ways to alleviate the fear. And we talked about those apps that you can get. And all of those things are helpful. And, of course, they won't ultimately protect you if somebody has evil intentions towards you. But I like to think that they help people feel that the world has noticed women in the dark, you know, and we can feel more powerful to do something about it.

45:20I just don't want to always be in that position, Jane, where I just, you know, I literally just think the worst of the world as soon as I open my front door. I really resent having to feel that way. Yeah, I find that just too overwhelming. It's crap, isn't it? It really is. And also, I could not recommend enough, and you're going to laugh at me for saying this, just get a big dog. It has changed my life walking around London at different times of day, night, on my own. For the last seven years I've had Nancy, I've been to places at times of day and, you know, in different circumstances that I would never have gone to without a dog.

46:00And I can just, I don't think it's said often enough that it just seems to give you a sense of, I don't want to say protection, but... Well, a protective shimmer. A shield? Well, maybe. I think also people think that a big dog is an aggressive dog. I was going to say, am I right in saying that, in fact, Nancy is grateful to... Just a wet fart of a security proposition. But they look like they could give it some welly. Yeah. So that definitely helps too. Right. I mean, it's a little bit like us. We look like we could give it some welly. And we certainly often sound like we could. I know. I think we can.

46:43But the truth is we're soft as anything. We're soft as shite. It's great. Oh, I don't know. I think we've got some hard bits in us too. We return tomorrow. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio if you'd like to send us an email. We've got a bit of a backlog, though. So if you're thinking of sending something, I'm going to say... Hold that thought. Hold that thought. Write it down somewhere, because otherwise you'll forget it. And maybe send it to us next week, because we've got... I mean, look at how many emails you've got there. These are just the ones that I was hoping to read out at some point this week.

47:13Yes. Yeah, we are really sorry if we haven't got around to you, but trust me, we are reading them, so thank you. Yeah. I always feel very guilty that we can't get to every single one, but we really can't. Otherwise, the podcast would go on for four to five hours. And whilst it would please some people, it would really irritate us. Maybe we should do a kind of Fidel Castro special. Where we just go on and on. Yeah, like a Ken Dodd live show in the 1980s. Let's go for it. Yeah, promises, promises. Two quick parish notices. The playlist is up there, Hunker Down in the Autumn. I'm enjoying it very much.

47:55I'm listening to bits and pieces. We will talk more about the book club book, make sure that everyone can get hold of a copy of Norwegian Wood. And there was something else, but I can't remember that either. All right. Oh, no, our tour. News about our tour. That comes at the end of the week too. I think tour is a little bit of a tour. It sounds, we're heading into Elton John territory, aren't we? But you're right. it's a slight exaggeration but we're leaving London I mean we are definitely basically we've been hounded out yeah yeah so lots to look forward to Jo yes no there really is yeah look out take cover goodbye

48:49Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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51:46Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.