Putting myself in the bin of life! (with Jay Rayner)

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2:58Welcome to Off Air with Jayden Fee, which today is with Jane. And yes, she's back. Eve. Didn't bring a cent of things, so I sent her to Marks and Sparks to get some chocolate buns, which is... Well, because you're supposed to come back with something when you've been on holiday. I've got a very trendy anklet on. How does that help me? Well, you can look at it. I don't want to look at it. Well, yeah, I did have to read the chocolate buttons because I did forget. But imagine the taste of turkey. M &S chocolate buttons. No, I'm sorry. It doesn't transport. They transport me, undeniably, but they don't take me to Turkey.

3:35Although I couldn't find the orange that we normally like. It's a secret known only to our team, but we do believe that during the colder winter months, eating the orange chocolate buttons from M &S does ward off colds. Yes. On account of the vitamin C. And if you believe that, you'll believe anything. Okay, our guest, my guest, the guest, is Jay Rayner, restaurant critic, broadcasts on a speech station funded by you if you have a licence fee. Licence, if you have a licence. And of course you should have, she said quickly. Jay Rayner, there's not much she doesn't know about food. And honestly, Eve, I don't mean this nastily.

4:18He's not a small man. He clearly loves his grub. And I actually think that's quite significant when you're a food critic and you're writing about food. He clearly just relishes every single mouthful. But he is interesting on the adjectives he uses to describe food. He's written a book, it is called Nights Out in the Kitchen. Chuck me some adjectives. Well, he's a beautiful writer, actually. No, he has a critic, sort of fan, but who's also a critic of his writing, who accuses him of overusing the adjective punchy. And it is actually, when you think about it, there aren't that many words that are in your locker if you are a food critic, because you are describing something relative, that we actually, most of us, putting stuff into your mouth and then tasting it.

5:10and yeah it's quite hard to think of new ways of doing it it is and it's a fair point how much of your job is to be flamboyant with your language and how much is just to get your point across be accurate yeah i suppose they can rely quite heavily on similes yeah give me an example well it was it was come on i'd like to hear it from you it it was like a summer's day in my mouth Well, that was beautiful. What a loss to the literary world, Eve is. It was like a breath of fresh air. Yeah, all right, that's enough. It was a minty cocktail. A minty cocktail. Right, so that's why Eve's doing this job and she isn't a restaurant critic.

5:53So Jay Rayner is the guest. I just want to bring this to your attention. And go do a better job than me. God help us. I should say he is a lovely writer. He's a beautiful writer. He talks about a three cheese toasty. So he talks about all sorts of highfalutin foods and fantastic meals, but he also acknowledges the joy of the simple bit of fodder that absolutely gladdens the heart and delights the palate. And one is this, it's quite expensive and it's sold in a hotel and a bar, I think it's a hotel, not that far from Broadcasting House, so I've certainly eaten it. It's a stovetop toasty. So it's a three cheese, really substantial cheese toasty.

6:33In fact, I never did finish one of these things. But there's three cheeses and the three cheeses are significant because one is for the tang and one is for the melt and then one is for the stretch. I'm glad you said that because I have always wondered the significance of three cheeses because it is quite specific. Yeah, I think it's quite specific. So all that explained, all that and more, explained by Jay Rayner a little bit later in this edition of the podcast. So you went this time to? I went to Turkey. Yeah. Never been on a holiday to Turkey, only been there on work. What was it like? I'm not particularly familiar with it.

7:09It was very fun. It was very lively. It was very beautiful. I'm sure everyone is sick to death of hearing about my holidays. Yeah, they are. So let's move on. This was a holiday of revelations. Oh, was it? Well, go on then. So one was, I'm a convert now, of the half sheet of kitchen roll, which you're familiar with. Yeah. That was stocked in our villa. Right. another is i'm now a strong convert for the b-day the lesser about that the better oh yeah i think probably and the third is i'm now a big fat convert for card games oh you're not a big fan of card games are you i know i'm not and i do think um but i'm not proud of not being a fan because i know so many people who love a night of cards particularly on because you were on a family holiday weren't you yeah yeah um and i think they can be really a nice unifying thing to do i used to be in your boat but jane i've jumped ship oh right okay so what which games did you play also we played one actually interestingly i say that um where set it up now this better be interesting three of us called it different things but it was essentially the same card game some one of us called it cambia one of us called it dutch one of us called it patrice that was fun contract whist we played well look you've made up you've made a relatively compelling case what it what are the rules of the game that i mean really want me to go no just very briefly is it simple to understand the game with three names yes it is okay yeah and then everyone can get involved and i think after dinner particularly when you're feeling a bit slumped and maybe you could sort of let the evening just slide away and it gives it a second wind and now i appreciate that i really did used to find it quite forced fun okay forced organized fun yeah as i'm right i'm completely against organized fun because i don't believe it works you have i mean my uh grandmother used to she was always at whist uh she used to play whist all the time and it used to absolutely crack up my sister and i because uh the two women that she normally sat with at whist were she used to play down the british legion on a saturday night with my granddad and they used to sit at a table often with the women who were called mrs buffy and mrs tart i don't know why but well i kind of do know why my sister and i used to find it absolutely hysterical you can picture that so clearly i I totally can.

9:22This is Liverpool in the 70s and they're all playing whist at the Legion on a Saturday night. I mean, I'm not deriding whist, I'm not deriding card games. I mean, it's very much in my DNA, but for whatever reason, I've just never taken to cards. I don't like crosswords, I don't like card games, I don't like board games. I generally just zone out when people start to explain rules to me in any capacity. God, I think you and I are probably just really quite unpleasant people. Unlike, this is such a leap and I really regret it, unlike the brilliant Dolly Parton. You know, celebrity deaths, they do happen relatively frequently, but who didn't feel a real sense of loss last night?

10:00Yeah. It's so moving how unified everyone is in their love for her. Oh, completely. I mean, my children loved her. I always admired what she'd done in terms of her philanthropy, the songwriting talent, absolutely undeniable, the Glastonbury appearance in 2014, just her sense of self and the way she conducted herself. And I know from journalist friends who have either interviewed her or have been producers setting up interviews with Dolly Parton, sometimes getting her on the line and waiting for her to take part in the conversation. No one has a bad word to say about her. Not one person. Even Donald Trump managed to come up with an appropriate tribute to her.

10:42That is why it feels so sad, because it doesn't feel like there's many things left that bring everyone together Everyone completely and utterly is in agreement that she was amazing. And it's really sad to lose that. It is really, really sad. So to anyone who is a fully paid up Dolly fan, I just hope you're all right. And you're going to just acknowledge that this was such an epic life and so well lived. What a fantastic contribution she made to humanity. Cher has been in touch from the States and says, I'm at work right now. word is just being passed around the hospital that Dolly Parton has passed away.

11:20I'm not a celebrity follower. I don't watch much TV or listen to a lot of country music but her death has really bothered me. I feel like she's one of the last truly decent people left in the US. Between her immense philanthropy, both known and unknown, the books given to kids throughout her imagination library and the homes she helped rebuild after the Appalachian wildfires, what a legend she was. she built an incredible empire from her singing and songwriting and i know everyone loved her i really did she'll be so greatly missed well thank you share uh and that's just an example just one email from someone who just thought this woman was special and i just want to say something about her so i'm sure if you want to say something more please do over the course of the next couple of days when we're not here we'll be back on tuesday one guess who's back on tuesday Fee and she's been to Norway now not a place I know anything about so really looking forward to that it is very thrilling because can I also just say that on our production team we are also enormous Jane and Fee fans oh yeah just generally so as much as we've all enjoyed stepping in I think everyone's very excited to have you back together oh no I'm looking forward to it but that's not to say that you and Hannah I mean Hannah with her revelation yesterday about being on security at Pets at Home I mean, what was it you said earlier?

12:41Hannah, you've lived a thousand lives. She really has. I don't know about that. That doesn't even scratch the surface. You need to ask about her cafe work. Okay, we'll do that next time. But no, actually a lot of people have really enjoyed hearing from you and from Hannah, so we should say that too. Thank you. Now, yesterday, I have just said it, yesterday Hannah and I, well, Hannah had to listen to me talking about going to the Anish Kapoor exhibition at the Hayward Gallery over the weekend. and Wendy in Boston in Massachusetts says another terrific podcast today to keep me company on my commute home from work you were talking about going to the Hayward Gallery and thinking about what it might be like to be a security guard at a museum it reminded me of a really wonderful book I read about all that it's called all the beauty in the world and it's by an author called Patrick Boringly it's a truly remarkable story about his time as a guard at the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

13:38Even if you're not into the arts, the book is written in such an exquisite way. And he writes so descriptively about his observations of people and the beautiful artwork he was surrounded by. Now, that is very interesting. Thank you. And that's a very good recommendation. So that is, the book is called All the Beauty in the World. And the author is Patrick Boringly. Thank you, Wendy. Zoe says, I'm responding to Jane's call out for experiences of being a gallery attendant. In the 90s for about a year, I did just this at the Horniman Museum in Forest Hill in South London. We worked seven days in a row before getting a day off.

14:15And this is the really, we weren't allowed to sit down. Oh my gosh. I'd spend all week dreaming about what I'd do on my day off. And then actually I'd be far too tired to do it when it actually rolled around. Yeah, I can imagine. I did try to make use of the time by reading all the info by the exhibits to educate myself. but I could never retain all the information. We were in one gallery for a whole day and a particular favourite was the Natural History Gallery where you might have to shout don't touch the walrus several times a day. And if you've got young kids in the summer holidays I mean, you don't want to touch it, aren't you?

14:54I've been to the Horniman. Have you? With my boyfriend's young niece and nephew we took them on a day out. Oh, that's nice. And there is a lot of children running around so I can imagine that is quite full on work. Yes, but what a privilege in life to be able to shout, don't touch the water. You were a captive audience for any staff who could move about the museum and would stop by for a chat. Some welcome, others not so much. Despite all this, I have fond memories of the job. The people were lovely and, says Zoe, it's where I met my husband. So it's the Horniman Museum in Forest Hill. You recommend that, do you?

15:27I do. What else is in it? Sounds like a bit of everything. Yeah, there's quite big gardens and grounds and lots of interactive steel things that you can hit and there's an aquarium with some really beautiful jellyfish against like a really blue backdrop and they move in the way that they do where they blub, blub, blub. Right. That's the official noise of a jellyfish, is it? Sort of what I imagine if they were to make a noise, but actually it was very peaceful. I was only saying earlier to one of our senior executives here at Times Radio that we haven't had a giant jellyfish story this summer when it has been so hot.

16:00you and that as far as i know and i could be wrong we haven't had a story from a very specific beach where suddenly there were loads of giant jellyfish i don't know maybe i'm wrong maybe it has happened maybe i was away to cross off your august bingo card i haven't crossed that off and we also hadn't had a giant cat but apparently uh there are rumors that there has been a panther spotted in the Northamptonshire countryside. So we stand ready to cover giant cats. But so far, as far as we know, there haven't been any confirmed sightings of any giant cats, which is so peculiar, bearing in mind the extreme heat of the last couple of months in the UK.

16:41Dear Jane, Hannah, Eve and Fee, not quite sure who to send to. Claire, I understand exactly what you're getting at. As I said yesterday, Hannah and I, we don't know whether we've been on foot or horseback over the last couple of weeks. I want to share my enthusiasm for art and the excellent experience I had recently at the Anish Kapoor exhibition. Now, I should say that Claire is just slightly putting me right here because I did go on Saturday. I was somewhat underwhelmed, if I'm honest, but that's my bad. It's no judgment on the art involved at all. Regards in art galleries, top tip, it's always worth asking them questions about the work.

17:19and I confess to my shame, I hadn't thought of doing that, Claire. In the room at the Hayward Gallery with the massive red landscape, I was really, and I think I did take an image of that and of course it was hopeless because all my photographs are just crap, I'm just absolutely useless. Anyway, I was curious to know if they had put the red pigment, which you mustn't touch because there's a big sign, don't touch it, whether they put it on before or after the sculpture came into the gallery. I wish I'd been clever enough to think about this I approached the guard standing in the corner and asked how it was made to be honest I wasn't completely sure how he was going to react I thought he might be too busy protecting the work to want to talk but in hushed and excited French tones he told me what he thought had happened the artist came into the gallery he brings his people we're not allowed in for five weeks said the guard so I can only guess what happens.

18:18He continued to explain for about five minutes, explaining how he thought the art was constructed. It was really interesting. Listening to Poirot explaining a murder. I think he was very happy to talk to somebody and I was so pleased to have had his interaction. It pushed my experience of the exhibition way beyond expectations. I am an artist stroke art teacher so I am an insider but it's unfortunate that many people believe they don't have enough knowledge about art to enjoy it or to talk about it. All that matters is how it makes you feel. If you feel nothing when you see a piece of art, then the art has failed.

18:56I could ramble on forever. I'm not good at writing. That's why I make pictures. Best wishes, Claire. Claire, honestly, it's a great email and thank you for it. She says, I was so excited to see that Anish Kapoor was at the Hayward because seeing his work, the scale of it makes me feel like a little child again. Don't forget his big red trumpets in the Turbine Hall at the Tate Modern some years ago. I mean, the Turbine Hall has got to be... It's such an overwhelming space, that, isn't it? I am awestruck by the size of that space. And art sometimes needs to be ginormous. And I can completely understand that the big trumpets in the Turbine Hall will absolutely have served a fantastic artistic purpose.

19:43I find it comforting when people say that you can feel whatever and if you feel nothing then that's actually on the artist because I am someone who sometimes feels like I missed something or I got it wrong when I go to see art. I didn't quite understand and I'm not getting what everyone else is getting that actually it is your interpretation. I hear what you're saying. I think sometimes I feel under, like Claire or Emela, I sometimes feel underqualified to make any kind. And I just think, and this is in spite of my O level in art. You know, I mean, I'm like a qualified artist in some ways. You're wearing lots of colours today.

20:19Yes. It's like an artist's kind of blouse. Thank you. It is one of my more colourful offerings, isn't it? Because you can spend too much time in navy blue. I think sometimes I do. and, you know, sometimes I've got this shirt today. It's more of a blouson. It's got white, pale and dark blue and some lime green. And, yeah, there's a lot going on here, isn't it? The more I think about it, the more terrible it sounds. Watercolours. Thank you. Yes. Yes. That's right. Charlotte. Hello, Charlotte. Fee, come back. No. I do want to see her, though. um i met charlotte on saturday night after i've been to the hayward gallery now unfortunately after the hayward gallery i did have a few drinks and it was after the drinks that i met charlotte so um it was so good to talk to you on uh saturday night i think it was baker street we met at but forgive me i was a bit tipsy i did say that to her and she acknowledged that that wasn't such a bad thing um here is charlotte i was traveling home from central london on friday night no it wasn't friday night after a reunion with primary school friends who i hadn't seen in 15 years and i recognized jane getting off the tube honestly i charlotte i hope i'm right i'm sure it was saturday night buoyed by a couple of drinks there we are i patiently waited at the top of the escalator and ambush Jane where she had absolutely no escape it's honestly it's always a pleasure to meet people who listen to the podcast because um we are I honestly do feel that there are kindred spirits all over the world and it's so lovely we've already heard from Wendy in Massachusetts from Cher who's hard at work in the states as well uh remembering Dolly Parton so fondly we love hearing from people all over the world uh anyway I moved back to the UK last month says Charlotte, after living in Australia for 11 years.

22:18I only meant to go for two with my partner and our one-year-old daughter, Stevie. Jane, both you and my mum agree I should never move abroad again. I think I did say that on Saturday night, or was it Friday? Australia has so, so much to offer, but once my gorgeous daughter was born, I could no longer ignore the deep-rooted feeling that I wanted to be geographically close to my mother while I mothered. your podcast was an anchor to me while i lived in australia and it kept me company when i was navigating homesickness and the postpartum period with no family close by oh charlotte that's lovely to hear thank you very much indeed i know fee will be delighted to hear that too she's currently in zone six soon to be residing in godalming in surrey wish me luck in restarting the often often painful process of making friends as an adult charlotte welcome back to the uk thanks so much for talking to me on saturday night uh or was it friday it doesn't matter uh it was lovely to have a chat and i think your your partner was with you too and i forgive me i can't i think his name was relatively unusual and i don't want to say it in case i've got it completely wrong but um charlotte drink was talking on both sides whenever we met but it was lovely to do it molly is currently living elsewhere a little bit like charlotte but charlotte's now moved back to UK.

23:37I'm a 32-year-old female, originally from Essex. I came away from uni with an MA degree in history and politics. Looking back, my parents fell foul of the Blairism push for uni degrees and the promise of well-paid graduate jobs in abundance. However, it didn't quite work out for me like I thought it was going to. I travelled after graduation. I'm now in Australia working in legal admin. This is what I want to say. Your discussion about pensions and just how important they are made my blood go cold. I am currently on a sponsorship visa through my boyfriend's work. If we wanted to permanently move home after spending six years here currently and counting, wow, listen to this Eve, the Australian government would tax any pension withdrawal at 65%.

24:26That is outrageous. 65%. But I guess they don't want you to go do they um that must be why they they're doing it but that is that is that's extraordinary we have been talking quite a bit about how tough it is to get a job post uni so i'm just really want to read this positive story out because otherwise we're in danger of making people feel really quite depressed about everything when um you know good things are going to happen you might just have to be quite patient i suspect uh but this is from a listener called rosie who says i've been listening to the stories of graduates not being able to find work.

25:03And I feel a lot of sympathy for all these young people who are struggling so much. But I did want to share a more positive side to the story. My son graduated two years ago and is now on an engineering grad scheme in Bristol with an aerospace company. My daughter graduated last month and she has an entry-level graduate job at a company in Poole. God, listen to this. She only applied for one job and was successful after one interview. But look, that has to happen to some people, doesn't it? Yeah. It has to. I appreciate they are both very lucky and in the right place at the right time. But I just thought I'd let you know that there are at least a few grads who are managing to find work at graduate level and in a field they're interested in.

25:47Rosie, thank you for that. I'm sure you're really proud of both your son and your daughter. Well done to them and well done to you. But obviously there will be some people who think, what, only apply for one job and got it? But statistically, that is going to happen to somebody. this is very interesting it's from Sophie who says I am a recruiter myself although within an agency I do make a point of always replying to any application with something at least to acknowledge the email I also have a list of company names that I share with grads so that they know who to apply to often it's hard to know which company works in certain fields but most companies don't use agencies for grad roles.

26:28I recruit for actuaries. It's very niche. Actuaries are very clever and justifiably well-paid, says Sophie. But it's amazing. Can we just Google actuary so we've got to clear? I think I know what they do, but I need to be accurate here. But it's amazing how many people apply for roles that they are totally unsuitable for. Have we got a definition of actuary? An actuary is a business professional who uses math, statistics and probability to measure and manage future risks and their financial impacts. Right. OK. But this is really interesting, Eve. Sophie says, my favourite was someone at Wagamama's applying for a role needing a qualified actuary with at least a decade of experience.

27:13On the other hand, I spoke to someone, this is also very concerning, who has developed an AI program that automatically applies to any job that contains various key words. As you can imagine, this compounds the problem and companies then have to use AI to sort through everyone. Oh my God, this is a doom loop that benefits no one, says Sophie. my advice and I have a son who'll graduate next year so I'll be in the same boat is to differentiate yourself as much as possible try and contact people directly as well as via the application link often it's the candidate that bugs you the most that gets to the top of the pile yeah and it's good advice but again it just when you're applying for such a high volume of jobs it just creates that extra step and that extra thing to do which i mean you argue that that sets you apart and makes you the stronger candidate but when you're told that you need to apply it to as many jobs as possible yeah it makes it so time consuming it's so hard yeah but i i hadn't realized that there was now um a bit of ai that would allow you basically to ping off applications for absolutely everything i know it's yeah as long as the right keywords are there i mean that's but that and as our correspondent says there that creates then another role for ai sifting through oh my god and the more adept you are with ai the stronger your advantage then it's like we should all be strengthening our ai skills because that's what you're competing with but should we well i well i'm afraid i'm just too busy um she said basically putting herself in the bin of life um i wanted to mention this because we've talked a lot about travel over the last a couple of weeks mainly but who's trump no uh because this is an experience that i i wonder whether many more of you have had.

29:01We'll keep the listener anonymous at her request. I'm a long time listener. I'm a 46 year old NHS consultant. I'm married to another NHS consultant. I recently travelled to Romania for a summer holiday adventure with my husband and our two children. My husband is British born and bred. He's ethnically Chinese. Our children are mixed race. Both entering and leaving Romania, we had difficulties at border control. We were told there were system errors with our passports, despite all of us having previously completed our EES registration on another European trip. On arrival, my children and I were eventually allowed through while my husband was kept waiting.

29:43The situation was only resolved after our 12-year-old became so distressed that they burst into tears. After finally getting through passport control, we walked through the Nothing to Declare channel at customs. An official appeared to make a beeline for us and immediately asked whether we were bringing in cigarettes or alcohol. Neither of us smoke, my husband is a lung cancer consultant and neither of us drink. On our journey home something similar happened. Customs officials again came directly over to us, questioned us about where we were going and took photographs of our passports. Of course I can't know for certain what motivated any individual official and the border control delays were explained to us as system errors.

30:27But taken together, the experiences left me with a strong sense that my husband was being singled out because he's Chinese. We saw very few East Asian people during our time in Romania, which made the experience feel particularly stark. As a white woman and the mother of two mixed-race children, I have tried to educate myself about racism and unconscious bias, including reading Rennie Edo Lodge's Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race. But this trip did feel different. It was the first time I'd witnessed what appeared to be racial bias impacting my own family so directly right in front of me.

31:06It made me angry and deeply sad for my husband and children. It also made me reflect on the fact that for many black and other minority ethnic people in Britain experiences of being viewed with additional suspicion or treated differently can be a far more frequent and entrenched part of everyday life well to that listener i'm so sorry that happened to your husband and to your children that is a it's a grim thing to have your 12 year old bursting into tears when something like this goes on even i are white i'm not well i've never you've never had experienced any issues like this um getting in or out of the country and i've never been to Romania, so I don't know about the specifics of going to that part of Eastern Europe.

31:49But if you can just chip in on this conversation, let us know what's happened to you as you've travelled with your family over the last couple of months. Please do. It is Jane and Fee at times.radio.

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34:25Right. In Jay Rayner's book, he writes so much about all sorts of gorgeous foods, but the meal that I really wanted to eat on the basis of reading his book was from a restaurant on the holloway road in north london and eve it was quite simply lasagna and chips well you'd fancy that wouldn't you oh no you don't eat meat no i don't eat meat sorry right she's such a joy bringer

34:54would you have vegetarian lasagna i would and i'm i would enjoy it very much i mean it's a double carb load but what's wrong with that well there's nothing there's absolutely nothing wrong with it in my experience and i think occasionally as winter draws on so many of us will be turning to that i think it's hard to imagine lasagna in heat well i mean we were talking earlier in the office we do talk it's quite incredible uh about how non-stop non-stop pretty much i just i just i've honestly had fantasies about slipping on a coat yeah it just feels like a distant dream and i know you shouldn't say that because sometimes winter can be rotten and it's horrible if you You can't put your heating on because you can't afford it.

35:33But, oh, my God. It does feel like there's a slight change in the air, and I am ready for it. Normally I'm very much someone who digs their heels in towards the end of summer, and I really don't want it to go. No, but this time. But this time. Yeah. Bye, Summer. Thanks very much. OK, let's bring in Jay Rayner. Writer, broadcaster, restaurant critic, which one do you like the best? Which title? I think writer is the one that is the best umbrella term. because restaurant critic made me sound like a feeble Velveteen fop, doesn't it? You know, just waving his cuffs over people's efforts. Right. But I've been a print journalist for 35 years now.

36:15OK. And I've done a lot of different things, even though people know me as a restaurant critic. So I'll go with writer. All right. Well, we'll let you have that. Writer journalist. Thank you. Now, you broadcast on a speech network known to many, but it's great to have you with us here this afternoon. Do we not name it? Well, there's no need. Yeah. Times Radio. Yes. It's lovely to be here. And your latest book is Nights Out in the Kitchen. I love food. I'm already thinking vaguely about what I'm going to have later. But let me just read a few things out to you. Shaved fennel and lemon zest salad, slow-cooked tandoori lamb shoulder, a three-cheese toasty lasagna and chips.

36:50Of the four, which one would you have? Oh, they're all my darlings, Jane. That's very, very hard a lasagna and chips probably. But the thing about the lasagna and chips, I mean, one of the things about all the recipes in this book, a lot of them are recipes inspired by my favourite restaurant dishes over the many ridiculous number of years I've been a restaurant critic and some of them my own. And often the recipes are part of being able to tell a story. And I'm fascinated by the Anglo-Italian cafe story. Those places that do dishes that any God-fearing person from Bologna would just roll their eyes at.

37:27There is no such thing as spaghetti bolognese. There is, and it's served here in the UK, and that's why. Can I just ask briefly? Yes. Parmesan on fish-based pasta dishes? That's absolutely fine. I think so. I mean, listen, if you run scared of the Italians and their food rules, there's no end to it. No end to it at all. I mean, you know, one of the other recipes in this is for braised spaghetti with meatballs, and I'm not sure braising spaghetti, as in cooking it in stock in the oven, is a thing you're allowed to do within the greater Rome area. You know, they'd probably set somebody on you. Are the Italians more precious than the French then?

38:09Yes. Are they? Oh, I think they are much more precious. And it's hilarious because, you know, every recipe is at some point invented or developed from something else. So that great rustic Italian loaf, ciabatta, invented in 1986 the carbonara invented in the second world war to satisfy the hunger of American troops for bacon and eggs in their pasta as they were coming up the boot of Italy you know they get so grand about it and it's hilarious and some of it is fabulous let's not pretend really good Italian food ideally eaten under a tree in Puglia or something delightful in every single way but I also think food moves and develops and creates its own stories.

38:55It's like that thing when people, you know, we've stopped doing the, oh, chicken tikka masala isn't an Indian dish because it wasn't invented there. We now understand it as an Anglo-Indian dish which has been exported back. And it's a thing. You can't just pretend these dishes don't exist. So, you know, the Trevi, which is... It's in North London. It's on the Holloway Road. Right. Been there since 1962, which makes it a relative newcomer to this world of the British-Italian cafe. But it's a fantastic place and it's brilliantly cheap and on match days when Arsenal are playing, I really don't care about football, but I thought I'd make it sound like I did.

39:31It's absolutely rammed. And one of the things they do is this kind of classic British lasagna, brackets served with chips. I mean, I could eat that every night. Couldn't we? I mean, I honestly could, actually. I know it's a carbo load and I know we shouldn't do it. Carb on carb, denim on denim of food. Yes, it is a double denim, absolutely. What is it, though, about it that just makes it sound so luring? So is this book about food? Is it about restaurants? What is it? Who is it for? What is it about? It is a functional cookbook, for a start. There are 65, perhaps even 70 recipes in there. You can use it as a cookbook, and I hope people do.

40:07And the feedback I've had, because it's a sequel to Nights Out at Home from two years ago, which I've had lots of lovely feedback on the recipes. But I'm a writer, so I'm going to tell stories. and you know there are many stories to be told and the dishes are introduced with a journey around where those dishes come from there's a whole section on things on toast oh I was going to get on to that well we can get on to that in a minute but it's all of those things it's narrative it's both narrative non-fiction and functional cookbook so you don't have to pick it up and read it from beginning to end you can use it as a cookbook or you can put it on your bedside table or you can buy it and never read it.

40:43I really don't care. Well, you particularly don't care if someone buys it. Well, exactly. No, I mean, he really doesn't. I want to know, I mean, London, some restaurant critics, not looking at you necessarily, are accused of being London centric. There's a lot of references to places elsewhere in the UK in this book. And I was really pleased about that because there are some great places to eat outside London. I mean, you know, it's a fabulous country in which to eat. It wasn't always the case. I started in 1999 and I would be lying if I claimed that it was always possible to eat well everywhere.

41:16There came a point when I realised as you said, I present a show for another speech network and it takes me all over the country. And there was a point, and sometimes we stay overnight and then we've got a whole team to feed. And there was a point I suddenly realised if I looked hard enough, I would find somewhere good, anywhere. And then you end up sort of sounding like you're being an utter snob. I found somewhere fabulous in have a risk with? Well, I did. I found a fantastic place called Arabic Flavour, run by a Syrian refugee, a woman called Gafran Hansa. And the food was fantastic and served the best baklava I've ever eaten.

41:52So I went back and for this book, got her to teach me how to make that baklava. Yeah. And that's one of the beauties of the book, that there are so many recipes, ideas, but place names and parts of the country where immigrants have come, have brought their culture, have brought their food and where would we be in this country without people moving to this country and telling us and teaching us how to eat different sorts of things? You can eat more broadly and more deeply in this country than you can, frankly, anywhere else in Europe. It's one of the classic British middle classes, the summer, like we're having, and they swan off to the Dordogne and, you know, the food's delightful.

42:31Friseu salad and confit de canard and a tarte au citron. That's day one. Day three, it's a friseu salad, gigot d 'agneau, lamb. By day four, what they wouldn't do for a Thai green curry, but they're never going to find one. They're never going to find one. I mean, frankly, I love France, obviously. Who doesn't? But I'm not sure it's anywhere near close to being my favourite cuisine. I really don't. I love the French classics. I love the Bistro. Or Beef Bourguignon. Yeah, all those Bistro classics. There's a great story which I've never quite been able to pin down when it's called, you know, cuisine peasant, the peasant food.

43:08And as one historian informally, she pointed it out to me, she said, yeah, no, the peasantry in France around that time were eating millet. They weren't eating bourguignon dobes and coqueville. These were dishes invented by cosmopolitan chefs in Paris for the Demimonde. Did you start life professionally editing the lead student magazine? Is that a test of my memory or of my accuracy? A listener wants to out you as being somebody who worked on the lead student magazine. Well, it wasn't a magazine. It was a newspaper. It was the biggest student newspaper at that point in the country. It covered the university, the then Polytechnic and all the colleges.

43:43And yes, I was elected editor by a cross-campus vote. And it was my first job. I'd worked my way up through the paper. Right. That is from Kate. So, Kate, it was Jay Rayner. You're absolutely right. So can we just talk briefly about the Three Cheese Toasty? Because you reference an establishment I have been to. I'm only frowning slightly because I may have mentioned it in passing in this book because the original recipe is in the last book but we can talk about it. Well it's the stovetop toasty Yeah that's the one, that's in A Nights Out at Home. Well it's also in here because I've read this. Have you read it from beginning to end Jay?

44:17Well I've certainly had a jolly good look Jay. You had a good flick. I think you won't find the full recipe for that in there but I will tell you the story about it. It's the stovetop toasty and what I've learnt from this book is that there are three different types of cheese because the three different types of cheese bring something else to the toast party. You need something for sharpness, like a cheddar. You need something for melt, like a fontina. And you need something for stretch, like a telegio. I'm trying to remember if those are the right examples. But that's the point. You want sourness, you want stretch, and you want melt.

44:53And that's what's so brilliant about that toast. It's no accident that it's created by Michel Roux. who, you know, one of his side projects is a pub called The Wigmore. And it is about a foot long. It is, yeah. You want to watch on the web. I'm putting my fingers apart. It's huge. Yeah, you actually don't need chips with that. No, you don't need chips with that. And I described it to being the size of one of my feet, and I have very big feet. Yeah, I can imagine you do. There's also, I like cocktails. I'm a late-life convert to the cocktail. And there's a cocktail in here, I really like the sound of, the Twinkle.

45:27Now, what's in a Twinkle? A twinkle is champagne, elderflower, cordial and vodka. And where might one procure a twinkle? Try your local barman. Most good bars, when they hand you that menu, you should ignore it unless you see something you really like because most of them can make most of the things that you like. They've learnt all of them. So, for example, my favourite, personal, absolute favourite is a daiquiri and most of them don't have it on the list. You just say, can you make me a classic daiquiri? and of course they can. What's in a classic daiquiri? Lime juice, white rum and sugar syrup.

46:03And there's nowhere to hide in it. It's usually a test of bar people. It's how they're tested by the bosses. But the Twinkle is a champagne cocktail and is invented by a guy called Tony Coniglaro. I hope I pronounced his name. I thought you were going to say Tony Twinkle then. No, Tony Twinkle would be great. at the Lonsdale Bar. I came across it because it was served constantly at the Ivy Club, which is a Ponzi members club above the Ivy restaurant. I'm no longer a member, I hasten to add. But for a while they stopped serving it because once people saw the first one come out, everybody would order them.

46:43Because it's not quite as fierce as a full-on cocktail, so you think, oh, I can keep going on these. And, you know, it's a four-twinkle night. It's a six-twinkle night. I wouldn't want to meet me on a four-twinkle night, I really wouldn't. Chicken skin. Please just explain your devotion to chicken skin. I think that we have been too narrow in the matter of scratchings. The word scratching is generally applied only to pork. And it shouldn't be? Well, no, the pork scratching is a noble, noble item in every way. But other forms of skin are available. And chicken skin. I mean, anybody who's roasted a chicken, I say anybody, it's probably everybody who's listening, knows just how fantastic chicken skin is.

47:24It's the point of roasting a chicken. and there are ways to turn them into their own form of crackling. It's a really interesting little method in that you first render them dry, and then you add water and boil that out, and that renders out the rest of the fat, and then it cooks in its own fat. You have to define rendering, I'm afraid. Rendering is when you melt the natural fats in a piece of meat. And so it's something that any household cook could do? Yes. No special equipment required? No specialist equipment, although they might want to buy a book to understand the recipe and the method. Well done, Jay.

47:57Thank you. Excellent. Now, you mentioned things on toast, and mince on toast is something that... I'm sure we used to eat that routinely in the 70s. Well, I was also in the 70s and I didn't, so the background... Right. Maybe we had different upbringings, Jack. Well, we certainly were, because I don't think you're a member of my family. One forgets when time passes. There is a backstory, which was at the website Eater, which used to be huge. They had 30 outposts across Europe and the States and Canada. They had a London outpost and they ran a thing which was called the Carnivore, I think it was called, which was a meat eaters video series.

48:39The guy had gone to the Quality Chop House, a restaurant in Farringdon. I don't know if you've ever been. It's very good. And he was reviewing this particular dish which was beef mince cooked down in lots of beef stock and veal jus. It looked absolutely gorgeous, and then it was put on an absolute, to die for, crouton cooked in dripping. So it's, you know, it's one to harden the arteries with. I did sound effects, so it's like folia. Yeah, but on a winter's night, and I don't know about you, I'm longing for winter. How good would that be? Fantastic. Now, the problem with this post on Eater in 2017 was it described it as a quintessential British classic.

49:16And? Twitter, as was XNOW, went absolutely mad because they said, you know, fish and chips are a classic, beans on toast are a classic. Mince on toast is not a British classic, although later the Scots would claim it and the Kiwis. It became Mincegate. It got a suffix. There was a hashtag. People wrote State of the Nation pieces. It was high summer. It was a row of zero calorie outrage. There was nothing at stake. They're the best rows. Yeah, they are the best rows. The crowd gathered around the Eater website shouting, burn them, burn them. And eventually Eta did apologise. Oh, did they? Right.

49:54Let's bring in the listeners. It's always a little dangerous here on Times Radio to bring in the listeners, but I'm doing it anyway. Rob says, I think this is the most middle-class conversation I've ever heard. Oh, Rob, you should get out more. Because we can up it. Really, we can. We honestly can. We have a river cafe yet, but go on. It is one of those classic British things that if you start... Firstly, yes, I am middle-class and I won't deny my true nature. But there is a thing that if anybody, if the British start talking lovingly about food and the joys of food. That's a good point. People attack us.

50:30People attack us as being in some way hoity-toity and above ourselves. Right. Yes, we love it. I've just got an air fryer, boasts Keith. I do a ham and three cheese buttered toasty. I use gouda, cheddar and parmesan and it's lush. Gouda, cheddar and parmesan. That's three hard cheeses. You don't think that would work? Well, no, clearly it does work because he likes it. I'm just curious as to where the melt and the stretch is in there. I mean, the gouda would give you a bit of that if it wasn't too aged. Do you have a stance on air fryers? I was given one to test, and the fryer word is the thing that I think is the issue.

51:09They don't fry. They are small convection ovens, and they're very efficient. They're brilliant in terms of power usage. And if there aren't many of you that you're cooking for, I think it's a superb thing to have. I think if you're one person living on your own. Absolutely. I have started looking slightly jealously at certain things on social media that people can do with them. And then realising that my wife would kill me if I bought another piece of kit. Yeah, and you met her at Leeds University. I did meet her at Leeds University, yes, where I was the editor of Leeds Student. Yes, that's right.

51:38Chicken shops. We're getting away slightly from middle class banter here. But there are, I couldn't believe it, there are 8 ,000 of them in the UK. No, that's 8 ,000 in London. The what? 8 ,000 in London? Yes. OK. That's the most shocking statistic I've heard this week, other than the suggestion from a contributor earlier in the week that there are only 12 ,000 foxes in London, which I don't believe. No, I don't believe that. No, it's more like under 50 ,000. There's only 12 ,000 foxes they've met. Exactly. So chicken shops... I'm suddenly worried about it. You keep talking. I'm going to just quickly check my number.

52:09OK. Chicken shops are very prevalent in the part of West London where I'm very happy to live. And I do know how popular they are. I also know they represent really good value. But what do you think of them? Should they be quite as popular as they are? Well, there is a reason why you raised it, because I have a whole section on a particular brand called Morley's. Other chicken shops are available. I don't even have to do that, do I really? Morley's grew out of South London, and I included them in a barbecue sauce chicken wing recipe because I wanted to write about how significant and interesting it is as a cultural item.

52:45they are a third space in which people who can't go to pubs, young people who need to go somewhere, they meet and they are a fixture in their lives. And that is fascinating. I think it's relevant that when the new London Museum opens later this year, it's going to include the sign for the first mall as part of it. Are there too many of them? Yes, absolutely. But if we're going to start going rah, rah, rah, close them down, we have to ask other questions about the cost of food and food deserts. the lack of affordable cheap food um you know too often we had a complaint that we're all too middle class um the middle classes rage against people on low incomes the socially excluded for their habits and sound like paternalist tories are going well you really have to better yourselves we have to think rather more seriously about the causes of poverty and nutritional issues than simply saying that's not good good for you and you should do better right so you're you're not snooty at all and um i'm lovely oh look at that you just literally rolled your eyes at me i hope that wasn't caught on one of many cameras um could we ever trust a menu with pictures now i speak of somebody i went to greece on holiday last week week before last i love greece uh but you there are a lot of restaurants where everything is is photographed for you outside and let's face it about Greece, most restaurants sell exactly the same dishes.

54:12I love them all. You know, I had that snobbery. There was various points over the years, there will be various things that are held to be true and one of them was never go to a restaurant with pictures on the menu. One of the interesting things about the Greek language is although it's part of the European family, it's a little bit impenetrable and if you're not completely up to date on your Greek dishes, some of that you'll go, I have no idea what that is. And given you were in a tourist resort with many nationalities, putting pictures on the menu doesn't seem like a terrible way to go. So you wouldn't dismiss a restaurant?

54:47Absolutely not. And specifically, there's a whole category of Chinese restaurants. There are no pictures of the food in this book of mine, but there are illustrations and there are menus because people love looking at menus. And one of the places I talk about is a place in Swansea called Zizi Gao's favourite authentic Chinese restaurant. And the place is bonkers in every way. Big, giant stuffed panda. She served us wearing a tight-fitting sequined dress and a tasseled veil. And I then realised it wasn't a religious choice because her face was on the bottle of wine that she served us as well. There are pictures on that menu and they're reproduced in the book.

55:27And I think they're absolutely delightful. so it depends on what the culture is and how it fits into the culture and also there will be certain cultures where literacy creates issues and it has become part of the culture to present photographs on menus and you also have views on waiters and the art of being a waiter and I'm always quite intrigued by waiting staff who don't write anything down oh, you're intrigued? Well, this seems to be... They won't be desperate. It's a relatively recent phenomenon, isn't it? Or am I wrong about that? I think it is relatively recent, although I don't know if you'll agree, I'm literally just about turned 60 and I've realised that what I thought of as recent was actually quite a long time ago.

56:14Time is passing fast. Yeah, you know, you don't know whether the person who is trying to take down... not take down your order with a notebook, whether they are the memory man or were on crack last night or whatever. And so often when they don't take an order down with a notebook, something's forgotten. So you think it's simply, it's grandstanding. It's completely unnecessary. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they want to show that, oh, they're just here and it gets in the way. I'll tell you my favourite story of taking an order without this is if you're upset about the middle classness, brace yourself.

56:54Should a klaxon go on? Yeah, absolutely. I was at Le Gavroche. It was one of my birthdays. And the great Silvano Gioaldino was the great maitre d 'e and he came along and he put his hands behind his back and said, what will we be having tonight? And I ordered the woodcar. Whatever. I ordered dinner and then I turned to my wife and said, that was amazing. He didn't write a single thing down. He said, no, but the lad about four paces behind with the notebook took the order. Yeah, OK. I love the mention in the book of your critic who didn't like your overuse of certain adjectives. Now, I think punchy.

57:33It was punchy. Punchy that you did that. Greg had been reading my column with more attention to detail than can ever be strictly necessary. But it's a real art form, writing a restaurant column. I don't know how anybody does it. How do you keep coming up with different, properly helpful ways of describing putting something in your mouth and then swallowing it? I wish I had said that now, but go on. Thanks. It's good to meet you. The key to this, I think, is to regard a restaurant column as being like any piece of journalism. And my job, when I'm deciding where to go, is to ask myself, what's the story?

58:11I have to work that out first and foremost, because basically we're talking about a room, a table, a chair, a plate of food. And if that's all I was writing about, a thousand words would be really tiresome. But if you can identify from the outset what this column is going to be about, then you're ahead of the game. And then the issue of how the food actually tastes becomes less urgent to you. Yeah, there are challenges, because how many times can you say succulent and moist? And let's be honest, how many times should you? I got into a habit for a while of using emotional responses. I said a curry sauce in an upmarket fish and chip place tasted of care, which I thought actually was all right, because that kind of tells you what it...

59:00Yes. You know, it's good. And I once wrote about a... I was actually asked to write a review of Rob Beckett and Romesh Ranganathan's one-night-only restaurant, and there was a bottle of this apple sour liqueur, horrible stuff only a teenage boy could like, and I said that tasted of hate. These things work. Yes, but they can only work once. Well, they can only work a few times. And then I appeared as a character in a viz column, a cartoon strip called Foodie, you've missed, well, not euphemism. Yes, thank you. For testicles. And it had me saying something like describing a glue vine as tasting of all of Europe's hopes and dreams for Christmas.

59:44Jay Rayner, thank you very much. I'm so sorry. We could have gone on for another 10 or 11 years. but Jay has to go the book is out now I'm also on tour on my website oh yes Nights Out in the Kitchen Jay Rona's new book and just to alert you Kate Atkinson is our guest tomorrow she's written another thumping good read this one is called Our Noble Selves and I have been raving about it forever because it's about the Festival of Britain and it's oh it's just fantastic it's actually very poignant but also extremely funny so Kate Atkinson tomorrow next week who have we got lined up next week? we have ian dale coming in on the tuesday for your and fees reunion he's some sort of broadcaster isn't he yeah less said about that the better wednesday we have your interview with miriam which you've already done yeah and on thursday we have friend of the show scott bryan who's got a book about his kind of journey through television i think it also ties into like queer television yeah and his experience with it what's it called out on the box or out in the box I think it's called Out Now.

1:00:47Out Now. Which is a bit confusing because then you say... Well, no, it's good. It's a clever title, Scott. Out Now is... Out Now is Out Now. I mean, it's a work of genius. Out Now, A Queer Journey Through Modern Television. Scott, that's a good title. And that's going to be interesting. So a lot to look forward to next week. Miriam, as I said yesterday, I think, was on sparkling form when we recorded the interview. She does actually, she's quite controversial about one particular British food. And I think people are going to be very upset because Miriam has come right out against, of all things, the Yorkshire pudding.

1:01:19Ina, hear about that next week, everybody.

1:01:37Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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