Queue jumping at the pearly gates (with Johnny Mercer)

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. requires iPhone 11 or later.

0:40Eve's been very stern. We don't have long, so let's get started. Welcome to Off Air with Jane and Fee. It's Wednesday. And I would say it was a properly autumnal middle of the week day, isn't it? Oh, it's very, it's got very dreech, as we would say, high up on the East Coast. and I've already lost a beanie on the tube and this will be the first of many, many, many because you don't want to take your wet hat off and put it right on your lap or in your bag. So I put them on seats next door to me and they just go. I don't know whether this one was lifted or whether I just left it. I think you just forgot it.

1:20I think I probably forgot it. It was quite a busy tube. Anyway, that's mildly irritating. It's annoying. I'm a big fan of a beanie, but you're right, you should never splurge on one because they do go missing. Yeah, and it was my mistake. I went posh beanie instead of... You just need mountain warehouse. Yeah, well, I do love their adverts. They've always got these really clean, living-looking family units, usually standing on a hillside or right at the top of a mountain. And they all look fabulous. They're all a glow, rosy-cheeked. Well, they look happy to be there, and as you and I know, Try dragging your kids.

1:57Family wants to go up Ben Nevis. Not with their parents, no. No, they just look so fantastically accomplished. And you can't ever imagine that there's a particular quartet at the moment flogging Mountain Warehouse gear. You can't ever imagine them having a crossword, arguing in the car, one of the kids having the trots. It just doesn't seem plausible in that world. But good luck to them. Using the phrase, I'll see you at the bottom. heading off I don't want I'm joining gosh that kind of thing and that was me not the kids now look we've got a guest in this podcast it is former people will be excited to hear Eve former I'm going to have to do this with a straight face former Tory MP Johnny Mercer there I am I said the former Tory MP bit relatively quickly but actually he's interesting Johnny Mercer he had he had been in the army and his book is called No Way to Run a Country, An Outsider's Journey into the Heart of Our Broken Politics.

2:57And it's been endorsed by some remarkable men. Roy Stewart and Alistair Campbell. Whoever they are. Now, why didn't we ask them to endorse our book? I don't know. I really don't. But this is actually, I've read the book and it is an interesting one. And he has some quite uncomfortable things to say about politics, politicians, about what motivates a lot of politicians. and basically if you want to get on, if you want to shin up the greasy pole at Westminster, you've really got to abide by some quite strict rules and that may actually not necessarily be of much value to your constituents, the people who elected you.

3:36So, you know, he's got some interesting things to say. Thank you, Eve. Although you can do both and I had an example this morning of a friend of mine who has been enormously helped, I'm going to name him, by David Lammy in his constituency office went to see him about a problem. He's straight on the case. The letter has been written. It's to a governmental body that hasn't done the right thing and hasn't been doing the right thing for about a year. And I'm so impressed. I mean, you know, that's a man who you could use that expression of if you wanted to, was shutting up the greasy pole. But actually, for all the Johnny Mercer stories, the untold stories are of the really boring, dull detail done by MPs and constituency officers that absolutely turns people's lives around.

4:27And I don't think this problem would have got sorted out without the intervention of Mr Lamy. So I'm just popping that in there. I think we just need... I will listen with enormous interest... I should hope so. ...to your interview with Johnny Mercer. And I think he's got so many good things to say about defence and politics, Jane? I don't think we understand that at all at the moment. I think if you've... The uncomfortable bedfellows at the moment are there. If you've been in the services, then, you know, first of all, you deserve respect. And also, your words just carry a bit more weight because you do know what you're talking about.

5:02You've seen things. You've been to places. You've done things. You know, it might be uncomfortable, it might be excessively challenging. But, you know, your opinion does count for something. So anyway, Johnny Mercer is our guest today. But for all of those MPs who then go on to write a book, there are just so many who are in it for completely different reasons. And of course, they're the people who won't write the book because that's not why they're in it. So I think we just become cynical about politicians at our peril at the moment. Really, really, really at our peril. And the more we celebrate the people who are in it for the very, what other people would see as boring and dull reasons, the more we can balance out the people who are in it just to, you know, stuff cash up their what's-it.

5:43And that's not Johnny Mercer, actually, but there are other people who are definitely stuffing cash up their what's-its. Well, it's just true, isn't it? Yes. I mean, a lot of cash as well. You have to have a big what's-it to shove some of that cash up there. Oh, yep. You've got to have a working what's-it to keep it in. Can we just say hurrah for the autumn playlist? Yes, let's. Are you listening? Have you listened yet? I'm not. It's on Spotify, isn't it? Yes, it is. Off Air with Jane and Fee, Hunker Down. Yes, and name some of the tracks. Well, I tell you what, it's so real. It is a real game of two halves.

6:19So we have got, well, the ones that I was very excited about, in particular, Week of Pines by Georgia Ruth. Now, I'd never come across Georgia Ruth before. She's a Welsh harpist and folk singer. So you've got the kind of obvious ones that we talked about before already. It is always lovely to hear A Forest from the Cure. And the other one that I loved hearing again was Let the River Run by Carly Simon. Oh, that's a banger. It's a banger. It's such a banger, that one. And we've got a couple of Mumford and Sons in there. We've got September in the Rain from Rod Stewart. Shush. Okay. I wasn't going to say anything.

7:02Have I got a downer on September? I think you've got a downer on Rod Stewart, love. Have I? I don't think it's a bit. No, I mean, I don't share your passion for Rod, but I hugely admire his back catalogue. Do you? I don't get it, Jane. Right. Not all of them. I'm not keen on Maggie May. No. Love and Affection, Joan Armand Trading, Autumn Paolo Natini, that is a cracker of a song, Stoned Soul Picnic from Laura Nairo, When October Goes, Barry Manilow, and then some ones that I just never, ever, ever want to hear again. And that's the great thing. you can just shuffle through them. Which one? Well, I won't say.

7:39Oh, go on. Just name one. I don't... Guns and Roses, November Rain. Oh. I just can't... I don't know why. I don't think it... It doesn't even remind me of anything bad. It's just so... It's paint-by-numbers rock, isn't it? I don't... I can't even... I can't hum it. In the cold, November Rain. Yeah. I'll tell you what. We'll all have fired up our heating by then, won't we? Yeah. But, you know, everyone's got things they like and things they don't like. Northern Sky by Nick Drake. Oh. Bit of Nick Drake. That's a beauty. So thank you to everybody who contributed. And actually, when you look across all of our playlists, they are magnificent.

8:16There's something for every kind of feeling, for every kind of circumstance. And it's always just lovely, isn't it, when you come across a new artist and it's just banging. And I do feel like that about Georgia Ruth. And there aren't very many. I don't think I've ever really been drawn to the music of the harp before. Well, there was a girl at my school who played the harp. and I can still remember her name, I won't mention it, but every now and again, probably at least once a term, she'd bring her harp into assembly and we would enjoy a recital. And we did enjoy it. She was extraordinarily talented.

8:51It's very calming, the harp, don't you think? What a bugger to move around, though. Yeah, I don't think... I'm not surprised she only brought it in once. We can't possibly have had a school harp. So I don't know where. Perhaps she did have her own. She was extraordinarily talented. Now, Joan has emailed, she shares my passion for cinema. I also saw the uprising, Jane, but I suddenly realised I hadn't put enough money in the cinema car park. Not wanting to get an£80 fine, I had to leave 20 minutes from the end. Now, that is absolutely, what a pain. Did I miss anything or was it just more gory beheadings and unintelligible dialogue?

9:29Asks history buff and cinema fan, Joan. just in case you missed our earlier discussion about the uprising it's about the peasants revolt in 1381 and actually joan you didn't really miss a lot i mean what turned out in the end uh that the king was a right wrong and effectively the protesters were ambushed and it was it was really gory at the end really gory it all took on a very um and our hero yes Is that a spoiler? Is it a spoiler? No, not really. No, because if you know your history, Eve, you will know what happened in the Peasants' Revolt. I don't think the peasants won throughout history. Exactly.

10:09Have the peasants won? Have they thump? So our hero, played by Andrew Garfield, returned to his, well, to his sort of marshland home and it was all incredibly bleak, I have to say. I probably should have gone to see a rom-com that day. it probably wasn't the right thing for me. No, I don't think so at all, Jane. But Joan, I mean, the£80 fine, I'm not surprised you left. I mean, this is something that... Andy Burnham's tackling this. Exactly. I mean, it did slightly make me laugh when there's so much turmoil in the world. The headline the other day here in Britain was that our Prime Minister is trying to do something about parking fines.

10:48Well, I'm going to discreave you that. No, it is important. I think all of the tiny things in the background, they're the things that really genuinely lift people's daily spirits I don't mind that I would with hand pump dispensers actually that is another only somebody could take that on board and do something about it are you talking about things like hand wash? yeah the little spring that you have to turn and then push down for it to push up every single time I buy one of those I'm so befuddled by how to get it started You should read your ex-husband's columns. Has he written about that? I mean, the man had his qualities.

11:30No, he's absolutely on it. He still does. Absolutely on it. Really? Yes. Okay. Like I say, had his qualities. Has his qualities.

11:44Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. Can we just allow thoughts from Celia, who says, firstly, love and thoughts are with you, Jane, with news about your dad.

12:24As you say, you've been fortunate in your life. I'm the same age as you, but I lost my dad in 1984 when I was 21 and my mum died four years later. So I've been an orphan for 40 years and I'll be frank, you never get over it. Well, we send lots and lots of love. And do you know what? You in particular are not unaware of the fact that when you're talking about losing your parents there'll be people listening for whom that is actually quite a tricksy old conversation. Of course, yeah. so you know we're not being careless in this conversation we will be carrying on talking about losing parents i think for a little while yet on the podcast this is just to warn everybody well yeah and also um i think we should just talk more frankly and honestly about death because obviously it is going to happen to all of us and i think it's so we live our lives because we live our lives on the basis that yes it'll happen but i don't want to dwell on it because if i did I would go completely bonkers and we'd all be running around screaming into the existential echo chamber.

13:21Yeah, abyss. Yeah, abyss is much better. And we can't, we can't live from one day to the next like that. It's just impossible. But what we can do is embrace the reality of death. And actually, because I was with my dad when he died by pure fluke, and I might not have been, but I happen to be, I just want to say to people, it's not, don't worry about it. It's all right. it's okay and it's nothing to be too scared of and i've said that to my kids who were asking about it and i really do think it's important that people just you know yes it's going to happen but it needn't be terrible if it's peaceful if it's peaceful the word peaceful does a lot of heavy lifting yeah i mean for some people i think the the struggle is very real at the bedside and yeah you know a death can be a incredibly uncomfortable thing yeah to witness but do what Celia I really feel for you I wonder how many people have actually openly had a direct conversation with you over the years when you've said that both your parents died within four years of each other when she was so young in your 20s I think especially when we're young because we don't talk about it often enough we haven't heard it talked about often enough we simply do not know how to discuss it and actually I saw some lovely old school friends at the weekend and we were talking about the the kids in school and i mean this was secondary school so from you know 12 to 18 whose parents died while they were there and just the complete lack of pastoral care maybe they said a word did they you know there was a it was a boarding school i was a day pupil at a boarding school sorry that's so boringly repetitious i've told people that far more often than i actually think about it myself um but but the house mistress one of the house mistresses told everybody else in the house not to mention the death of one girl's mum who had died very suddenly and she told everyone else not to mention it and so this you know this poor girl was overwhelmed with grief miles away from the rest of her family so she was there yes and no and everyone was told not to talk about it you know which we just it was just the completely the wrong completely the wrong thing to do but we were all saying how much it's changed actually and for our kids when tragedy has befallen their friends um there has been a much much more solid response from schools and actually some fantastic work some absolutely fantastic work done you know for the whole school to help them cope with loss but you know if you can get back in touch with us with any valuable advice, you know, because obviously you've been through a situation that Jane and I haven't been through.

16:08We would absolutely welcome that. I do love the rest of your email, though, which is a ticking off. Please do get into the 21st century with weights and measures. Oh, dear. Imperial measurements have not been taught in schools since 1970. Metric is so much simpler. One litre weighs one kilogram. Everything is divisible by 10. It's so easy to compute. You don't have to divide by 12, 36 or whatever number of yards equals a mile. Our heights are shown in centimetres on passports. All our health data is in kilograms. All gyms use kilograms. And supermarkets show comparative prices by kilogram. The only people to still continuously ram Imperial down our throats are our lovely media, of which I'm sorry but you are part of, and which still proliferate its use.

16:53The UK government agreed to move to metric in the 1960s, but Mrs Thatcher's government put a hold on it, and this has never been removed. the one major obstacle to being fully metric is our road system. And yeah, we are still in miles, aren't we? Well, also, a friend of mine had another grandchild the other day, a lovely little boy, and we always give the weights of babies in Imperial. Yeah, I don't know my kids' birth weights in kilograms. How about you? No. No. Not a clue. The three countdown lines, though, Celia says, leading up to each motorway exit are in 100-metre sections. so that's sorry let me hear that one again the three countdown lines leading up to each motorway exit are in 100 meter sections you know the three slanting bars two slanting bars one slanting bars those are meters though so those aren't in yards okay if only andy burnham was brave enough as he's being with noisy music on trains and parking and parking to take us fully metric our world would be a simpler and easier place so please don't wang on about being old i'm your age jane Just be practical, get on with it and use the simpler metric system.

18:00The sign-off is fantastic. By the way, the only other three countries in the world still to use imperial measurements, Liberia, Myanmar and America. Let that be a salutary thought. Thank you, Celia. Very much. Right. Yes, no, thank you. Although I don't know enough about the politics of Liberia to comment. Best not to then. That's just, it's never... Eve, do you? No, we welcome all correspondents from Liberia. No, we really do. We're back to death, I'm afraid, because it's definitely worth discussing. Susie's in Worcester. Hello, Susie. Hope you're all right. I have been relating to a lot of the issues you've been discussing recently.

18:42Like Jane's dad, Ray, our dad was a good age. He was 88 and he was ready to go. But honestly, nothing prepares you for the heartbreak of seeing the man who's loved and protected you for over 60 years painfully leave us. Knowing friends who lost their dads at a young age, we do feel immensely privileged and grateful to have had ours at the absolute centre of our lives for so long. Our dad, Ron, did die last Friday at home in Birmingham. My sister was on the phone to him, paramedics were with him, and I was racing up the M5 from Worcester. I got there a little bit too late, but soon enough to still feel his warmth and to call him Daddy one last time.

19:19Oh gosh, that's sad, isn't it? but thank goodness you actually you were able to be at his side i mean shortly after he died but you know you were there and not that your sister should feel in any way um you know hard on herself that she wasn't there because she couldn't be there are all kinds of reasons why she couldn't be uh no wisdom to impart just solidarity and sisterhood uh and i honestly feel that your podcast gives me that in spades you feel like friends well susie that is lovely and that's generally the aim of things isn't it very much so yeah yeah and we're a hub we use the parlance of the modern world we're a hub and i'm sorry to hear about ron um but um it sounds as though his his end was was relatively okay and i i met i have met over the course of the last year uh dealing with my dad uh so many brilliant paramedics they're just the paramedic there's something about a paramedic uh that just they're so capable they're funny they're friendly they're just fantastic people their levels of their capacity to inhale adrenaline and cortisol i just yeah it knows no bounds you know sometimes when you see an ambulance racing through the streets of london you think that in itself just trying to get able to drive the patient yeah no i agree with all the Line bikes and everyone's got headphones on looking at you, Eve.

20:41No, the young people with the line bikes and the headphones. I mean, you're just asking for trouble there. And everybody jaywalking across the street and stuff. You just think, how do you arrive at your destination capable to then take on the trauma that you witness? I'm absolutely with you, Jane. I think they're just incredible, really incredible people. This is going to be anonymous. And I think it's worth reading out because we have congratulated our own employer, haven't we, a couple of times on being really decent about recognising that sometimes there are other things in an employee's life that mean that they just shouldn't be in work.

21:19They really shouldn't be in work. But I still think we've got a long way to go, actually. Not here. But this is an example of the rest of the world operating at a completely different pace. our correspondent says my own experience was the polar opposite of yours when my father was dying the stress of helping my mother nurse and care for my father on my days off became untenable and i took time away from work on stress-related sickness leave i would travel the two hours to my parents each week for three or four days and then try to live my life back at home whilst catching up on sleep and running a house one of my colleagues saw me out socializing and informed HR that I looked fine.

21:58What? Yeah. So I was called into a support meeting with my boss and an HR rep. The meeting was far from supportive and the question that just pushed me over the edge was, well, just how long do you think your dad has left from the 37-year-old boss? At this point, my 54-year-old self cried and the girl from HR, who was younger than my daughter, pushed a box of tissues across the table and muttered, I thought we'd be needing these. At this point, I said, I think this meeting is over now and left the room. Well, if we had some applause as a sound effect, we'd play it now. As you know, we don't have the budget for any sound effects.

22:37That night, I resigned from my job in a career that I'd loved. As a teacher of over 30 years, I've never felt so belittled and undervalued as I did in that meeting. I still have flashbacks to the meeting and regret the way my career was ended by two inexperienced and thoughtless people. I'm so glad that Times Radio is a shining beacon of how staff shall be valued and respected and I shall continue to spend my afternoons in your company. Well, anonymous person. We send many, many thoughts and hugs and that's just awful. And, you know, the colleague who dobbed you in, who said, oh, I saw her out and about and she looked fine.

23:13Well, God alone knows what's going on in their head. That is just so ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, you know, you've got to be able to go to the supermarket when you're looking after people and caring for people. You've got to be able to keep sane by going to the cinema or popping into Pizza Express. I just can't believe that. And also, where's the training? Where's the compassion in that room from HR? You know, how long do you think your parents are going to be alive for? Unbelievable. Whoa, whoa. So, yeah, we just say Times Radio. And actually, Tim Lavelle, who's our boss, he's the person who allows us to put family first.

23:50So credit where credit's due. Yes, and we've got a couple of emails about lack of curiosity, which I do like this. This is Anonymous, who says, It made me laugh when you were talking about your late dad's lack of curiosity, Jane. When my then boyfriend, now husband, and I came back from a year around the world, we had a similar thing. We sat in the dining room and nobody asked us anything. I mean, they'd been around the bloody world. It was back in 2000. cousin we hadn't been in touch and his parents talked about all the latest happenings in their area in the end we just started talking about it and we still laugh about it now on another note just looking for advice about how to support octogenarians what to say when they say they want to die how to help them accept help and support with caring etc it is so hard also how do you manage teenagers with a fear of death hormones and all the joys of your 50s it's a lot says anonymous there is a lot going on uh in midlife there's no doubt about it a lot to contend with and sometimes older folk are let's just be honest not that easy to wrangle and i say that fully aware that i probably won't be easy to wrangle myself uh but you know it's heartbreaking to hear somebody say they've had enough and they want to go and how how you're supposed to deal with that and what you're supposed to say i do not know and i'd really welcome other people's import there and also how do you ask how do you get older people to accept the help they desperately need my dad did have carers going in to be with him in the sort of latter months of his life and he did it wasn't he wasn't great with them they were fine but he just wasn't he didn't really want them there and it was just difficult well it's such a familiar story though yeah isn't it and i think you know you and i when we've talked about it uh in and we've asked the question how will we feel when the time comes i think both of us have said that we we don't want our children to be doing elements of our personal care uh i'm all for the robot carer if they can do i'm warming to the job i've i'm all for the robot carer yeah uh you know as long as that's not taking somebody else's job he really wants to be there and to do it but also that's another conversation that we are reluctant to have before it's too late to have the chat uh who do you want to be and let's be honest about it you know wiping our bottoms and putting us to bed and you know dealing with the frustrations of being in pain as well and I mean for me it's just not it's just not I don't want my children to have to do that I would also say actually there's there is a skill set here which we really undervalue professional care workers know how to lift people they know how to change their position without hurting them and I don't and you know I was horribly exposed on a number of occasions when, you know, my dad would maybe look a bit uncomfortable.

26:40And I'd just do the wrong thing because I didn't know what I was doing. And so it's not a job for the novice. The keen amateur has no place in care work. We need to start valuing the people, the humans who currently do that work. We need to start paying them properly. And we need to make it a career that people are going to want to do. Yes. Because God knows you make a difference doing it. Yes, all of those things. Oh, Lord. I mean, we're a long way from it. Can we just talk about the logistics of heaven? Because this appealed to me. This is from Sonia. By the way, Sonia says, my dad just reorganised the shed on the day of Princess Diana's funeral.

27:14He was just baffled. Actually, my dad spent a lot of that day in the garage. I wasn't there, but my sister and mum were drinking gin in front of the telly. He was just in the garage. It affected people differently. It certainly did. Let's put it that way. Do you know what? I went to put some cornflowers in Kensington Palace Gardens. Did you? After Diana died. It was one of those extraordinary things. I got on the 14137 bus. Name that bus. Name that bus, which goes all the way from South London over Battersea Bridge. It's a hard-working bus, that, isn't it? Yep, up to Kensington. You can get off at High Park and walk to Kensington Gardens.

27:48Highly recommended. And the whole of the top floor of the bus was people going to pay their respects to Princess Diana. So I'd felt a bit foolish, actually, when I decided that that was what I was going to do. and there is a liberal sentiment that really sneers at people who love the royal family. I can quite often be in that camp myself. Really? Well, you know, I wax and wane, as you know. Yeah, no, and I have a real, you know, I do have quite a cob on about the royal family, but there was something so, so sad just about her as a person dying at the age that she did. Because her children were so young.

28:24Yes, no, no, it just really shook me. So I went on the bus and did that kind of stuff. And then I related that story to a bloke who I went out on a date with about three weeks later and he got up from the table and walked out and he said, I can't stay on a date with someone who's done that. So people really did have the most extraordinary reaction to Princess Diana's dying. And I'm no, you know, no hate on a person who goes to do their shed, but weird to actively dislike people who showed moments of compassion for a woman who died at the age of 36. I think it was okay to be compassionate and a little bit sad, to be honest.

29:04Sonia, back to the logistics of the heavenly heavens. My friend's mother died a fortnight after the late American president, Jimmy Carter. Her name was Meredith, and she was just a few years younger than the president. I had known her well and could vouchsafe her genuine interest in everyone around her. No detail in our lives was too trivial to discuss. Motivations for doing this or that were poured over, and when found wanting, the verb should was deployed with some certainty. It struck me that the heavenly authorities would be kept quite busy with the near simultaneous arrival of two such forthright and capable individuals.

29:40Mum wasn't afraid of dying, my friend said to me, but she did have some serious reservations about how heaven worked. You know, where you go, how it was all organised and so forth. Although spiritually prepared, she didn't feel entirely ready from that point of view. I said that was my understanding that new people were arriving all the time and that's why there were so many angels. They were able to be present, to advise and to guide. Well, that's a reassuring thought, isn't it? Because if you are running the logistics of heaven, then it is going to be pretty busy. I mean, you've got people coming 24-7, haven't you?

30:18Up there, docking. I mean, these are the good people, like Meredith and Jimmy Carter. Some of us won't make it, I suspect. And you and I will be condemned to spend life in a kind of media purgatory, I suspect. Why? Well, you know, because... Is it because you read about the Icelandic playwright? That. And the trouble I had when I didn't realise the microphone was on. Yes. I said something disobliging about a Tory MP. Anyway, and other things I've done. All that's been litigated. But it is interesting. This lady, Meredith, was obviously very formidable in a really good way. But I'm not surprised she was a little concerned of just how things would be organised up there.

31:08Because it will have been really frantic. Yeah. And do you think there'll still be someone who kind of slightly pushes past you in the queue? But they won't have got there, will they? the nasty people won't be there so you won't get queue jumpers in heaven otherwise there's been a real error there's been an admin error I think if you're not going to allow people into heaven because they've queue jumped and actually heaven's got a very high bar yeah I mean I've given away the end of the uprising you're definitely not getting in if the bar is queue jumping blimey I'm going to save all of your grey hair emails for a grey hair special tomorrow and I'm loving all of your photographs.

31:49They are so encouraging. You all look really beautiful and we are going to discuss when we all go grey together. Yeah. And we will definitely, we can't give it enough welly today because we're almost out of time. But do keep them coming and they've got a special folder. Have you got a special folder? You see, you'd be good at sorting out the admin up there. Oh, I'm not taking that on afterwards. No, I want an admin-free afterlife. Please. I really do. I just... I'm leaving my whole punch of my stapler down here. I just want to go to the great big bun fight in the sky where somebody else is looking after it.

32:27The never-ending running buffet. That'd be great, actually. Oh? I know. I can't do a buffet anymore. Oh. Well, yeah, but up there it'll be fine. Oh, I guess, yes. Yeah, because you can't die again from the germs, can you? Can't. Oh, good point. Right. Well, get out of my way, King Broad. Ponds. A go-go. That chorizo that's been there for thousands of millennia. Chow down. Don't say that because poor Hannah's had terrible food points that she has from uncooked. I think actually that should be next on Andy Burnham's list. I don't think we should be allowed in this country to have on sale uncooked chorizo.

33:07Because in other countries, in Spain and in Portugal, they know that it's uncooked. They can tell. and so they don't serve it raw like it's salami. Whereas here? Here, all too often, all too often that is what happens. Come on, Andy. Put it on your list, Andy. You know, after you've tackled the lost beanies of the great British winter, you can turn your attention to Tully. Oh.

33:43sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app now with heart rate variability could tell you when something is off and your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions requires iPhone 11 or later.

34:08Well, my big guest is here. He's on good form, partly because he's not in politics anymore. That's the gist of it. He is Johnny Mercer, former Tory MP. His book, No Way to Run a Country, an Outsider's Journey into the Heart of Our Broken Politics, is out now. I mean, you do look well and you say you feel better. What does politics do to people? It's a good question. I mean, I think it's quite a unique environment. I think there's a lot of misunderstandings and misperceptions around it, certainly to outsiders. And that means, you know that that was me right and i totally accept the criticisms and so on for going in pretty green to all this but um i think it definitely does something to you as a person it does something to your soul i i never met anyone who went in there to you know to cause problems and do damage right but you can see that plenty of people end up doing that anyway and uh you know so i think it's worth an examination as to what actually goes on you know how it works the kind of ecosystem that is westminster and whitehall and you know and i I've tried to give an honest recollection of that as I can.

35:11Well, in case people just need bringing up to speed with you and some of your backstory, you were an army captain, you were twice the veterans minister. And there are reasons why the MOD, Ministry of Defence, might have had a few issues with your book. I mean, in the past, you'd revealed or refused to reveal the names of two military sources to a judge who was leading a public inquiry into unlawful killings in Afghanistan. done. Did the MOD have real problems with what you've said in this book? The MOD haven't got any problems with what I've said, because I'm not even close to the line on any of my agreements with them.

35:44I find, you know, I found their behaviour when I was in the last few months of sort of bringing it out pretty, you know, I mean, inept is really the word that comes to mind, because it was a kind of quite a quite a bullying approach to try and censor the book, when there was no need at all. And, you know, I think you'd struggle to find a stronger advocate for the people in uniform in this country than I was when I was in Parliament. So, I mean, that was all regressible. But, you know, that has marked my experiences with the Ministry of Defence over, you know, over the last few years. And it is what it is.

36:23You know, it's not worth getting upset about. Can we just ask, I mean, I was really interested because you did say that before you went into politics, really weirdly to me, you'd never voted. I mean, not only were you not political, you'd never even voted, man. What was the problem? I was away a lot with the military. And when you're in the military, you're going to do whatever comes down the road anyway. And so often some people find it emotionally kind of easier not to invest in what's going on by voting. So, look, I understand that that makes me a bit of an outsider. And, you know, people think dimly of that.

36:56But, you know, I've got to be honest about it. And there are plenty of people in this country who don't vote. and it's sad and it's a shame and we need to ask why that is. And I went through an examination as to why that was for me and my family and tried to change that and went and knocked on pretty much every door in Plymouth. Yeah, well, that's how you won the seat back in 2015. And what made you a Tory? Look, back then, obviously, David Cameron was Prime Minister and under him it was clear to me that, you know, the Conservatives were something I was very proud to be part of. I enjoyed his kind of mission, particularly around life chances and how, you know, your life chances shouldn't be dictated by the circumstance of your birth.

37:36And to be honest, in Plymouth at the time, that Conservative government was transforming life chances. Unemployment was down 55%. You know, the biggest factor that improved kids' life chances in Plymouth at the time was one of their parents having a job. And, you know, this was the reality at the time. Obviously, Cameron resigned within, you know, within a year, which was disappointing. And then it became quite a difficult process for the remaining nine years that I was there. Right. I mean, who was the worst prime minister you served under? Look, I don't honestly, I don't like to do kind of drive by.

38:07But let's talk about Boris Johnson. He wasn't the worst. He wasn't the worst. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but he wasn't the worst. But also, I'm not I'm not into the whole kind of, you know, coming out afterwards and slacking everyone off. I think it's more about the system in the country. Right. And how we want to be run and how we want to be a serious organisation again. Well, let's talk about the system then, because you do say that when you get into Parliament, you have a decision to make. You either want to do something or you want to be someone. So the people who want to be someone, what is it they have to do?

38:40Look, yeah, I think broadly people fall into those two categories. I think if you want to be someone, you know, it's a question of I never understood, for example, why someone would want to go into Parliament just to be an MP. right to be to have a seat anywhere in the country to be a minister for anything that it may be in order that they may be a member of parliament or a government minister for something they didn't really understand i never saw it that way i had a kind of fundamentally different view and that politics was a a vehicle to get things done for people who really needed it and in my case that was people who lived in plymouth and that was the veteran community so um for me you know that that is a fundamentally different approach and if you look at what you do through those lenses obviously if you want to be someone you're going to look at someone like me and think johnny doesn't really get it we're not here to rock the boat we're here to manage this process and you know hopefully we'll get away with it and we'll get elected next time for me i was like you know what life's really difficult for some of these people i've come here to represent particularly veterans like i find it morally offensive the way my generation has been fighting in afghanistan over the last nine years as it was at the time and you say all these nice things and i come home and the reality is there's no decent prosthetics there's no mental health care more people are killing themselves than were killed in the conflict in afghanistan is that is that right that was correct in 2012 and that is what drove me into politics so that is a fundamental fundamentally kind of different viewpoint of what politics is there for and that's why i got involved and that's why in some ways i was very successful creating the office of veterans affairs and spending 6.5 billion pounds a year on veterans which you do now in some ways unsuccessful because i know that not everyone was pleased that i was there, but I probably wasn't there for them.

40:16Tell everybody in case they've forgotten about your maiden speech. Well, my maiden speech, I mean, in 2015, I gave a maiden speech. And from there, I mean, it wasn't one of those contrived things where you think this is what I'm going to do. And I hope it plays out. I genuinely felt like people in the House of Commons didn't understand what it meant to make decisions and say things about the military. And then what that felt like to be a serviceman, to go and fight in a really unpopular war in Iraq, what that felt like as a family member who lost someone in Afghanistan. You know, your only child, you haven't changed their bedroom since they died.

40:50And now everyone wants to forget about Afghanistan. And I was like, no, you know, I don't want to be in a country like that. I want to change my country. I want to get this stuff right. I want to get these priorities right. And that's what I'm here to do. And I made that very clear in my main speech. And I never veered from that, which is why I was always slightly surprised when people were, you know, sort of took against me for doing exactly what I said I was there to do, right? Well, because most people didn't. Well, that was my view. And that's why, you know, the last government lost so heavily, and rightly so, is that, you know, people are absolutely fed up of politicians coming in and saying one thing and doing another.

41:26It wouldn't work in the sort of environment that I'm in now. It certainly wouldn't work in the military, but we kind of excuse it in politics. And I think for as long as we continue to do that, we're not going to get the best out of what I still believe as the best country in the world. Yeah. Your military service, just tell us a little bit about it, where you went, the years you served. Yeah, look, I was nothing special in the military. I joined up as a teenager after 9-11 and I became a terminal controller. So I controlled jets and helicopters and things like that in contact, in combat. And I served in Afghanistan in 2006, eight to nine, and then 2010 again.

42:09and then I had a break, came back and ran the commando course in 2011. But in 2012, you know, and the sort of collateral damage from those tours was beginning to stack up in terms of soldiers coming to me for help and things. I was just very lucky, really. I didn't, you know, it was nothing special, but I seemed to have got away scot-free. 2012, the BBC made this programme, broken by battle. More people killed themselves that year than they were killed in Afghanistan. And this light just went off and it kind of gripped me. And I just thought, you know, I'd been fortunate in Afghanistan for good reason.

42:38and that I had to go and change what being a veteran meant in the UK. Obviously, you served alongside people who were not as fortunate as you. And there are some harrowing examples in the book of things that you saw, friends you lost. I mean, obviously, I don't understand and I can't ever understand what it's like to resume a life and to be amongst people like me who've never seen what you've seen, never been to the places you've been to and just expect you to just carry on? And as you say, it's just not, it cannot be possible, surely. So it is definitely difficult. And I think, you know, we still don't get that quite right.

43:18I think with the correct support structures and things like that, you absolutely can get it right. And actually being in the military can be the best thing a person does in terms of developing their character and who they are. If I think of, you know, the challenges of doing small team contact in Afghanistan versus what I've done since, I mean, that is, you know, operating at the kind of optimum of what you can do as a human being. But also, I think, you know, it's important to remember that you're not kind of special or unique for going through those things. Plenty of plenty of people did it.

43:49And this is the real world, to be honest. This, you know, London and Cornwall and home and work, that is the real world. The military is not. And so it's kind of on you to make sure you kind of readjust properly. And that's what I've worked hard to do for myself. Can I just bring in a listener who is Jeff who says, Johnny Mercer speaks well of David Cameron, but surely as a veteran like me, he should realise that Cameron bears huge responsibility for scrapping the military capability we now so sorely need. There were cuts during. There were. Yeah, there were. And to be honest, I have a lot of sympathy for that view.

44:21And I have I've spoken extensively to the service chiefs and to generals and to David Cameron about this. um look the the truth is if you you know when i joined parliament military spending was 38 billion pounds a year right it's going to tax 60 billion this year so the idea that that it's all disappeared isn't isn't correct but i i accept there are massive holes in in uk defense at the moment and and the pressure of that is borne by the people who go out the door and make it work every day um and it breaks my heart to see it happen and um yes you know there's been responsibility from all governments and I don't devolve from that.

44:59And I take that criticism on the chin. I think obviously Cameron would say that he was dealing with a particular financial set of challenges at the time. And look, there is an incredible amount of waste in the MOD. I mean, defence spending now up at£60 billion a year. You wouldn't think that if you read the papers and read what's going on in the military. So, you know, whilst there's fault on people, prime ministers and so on, there's also, you know, The MOD needs a long, hard look at itself as well. Yeah, I've heard people say that. And obviously, I'm not an expert. I don't understand quite what you're getting at.

45:31Procurement is also always mentioned as something the MOD doesn't get right. But what's going wrong? At what point? Equipment programmes, for example, are so completely over-engineered. They go through so many processes that by the end of that process, you start with an idea. By the end, everybody's decided what they want tacked onto that piece of equipment. It's taken so long to go through that time frame. If you look in Ukraine, for example, where they are actually fighting war, their capability turnaround is sometimes six weeks. So they'll identify a gap in their capabilities, remanufacture it and get out the door.

46:02You look at a program like Boxer in the UK. Which is, what is it? Boxer is a wheeled armoured vehicle that they've been trying to bring into service for almost 20 years. These timelines are just not compatible with modern warfare, right? But because we don't have the Russians on the border, we don't feel this pressure to change. And that, you know, Ukraine, it just wouldn't work out there. Now, you went to Ukraine, didn't you? Very soon after the Russian invasion. Why were you allowed to do that? What were the circumstances? Look, I wanted to go and see what it was like and try and highlight what extraordinary people the Ukrainians were at that time.

46:43And I've been since many times and established, you know, work with their veterans ministry to establish a sort of AI interface for their veterans. services that now serves about um 300 000 people in ukraine so it's all been part of that journey um i think they're an extraordinary people um they are you know literally on we're kind of involved in a in a in a hybrid war at the moment and we we are at war you know we don't like to think of it because it's not like the second world war and things like that but you know these penetrative attacks from the iranians and the russians are happening every day the ukrainians are seeing the reality of that in their lives you know babies getting killed as you saw yesterday and I just think that if we give up on them we've started to have this unfortunate characteristic of giving up in Afghanistan in Iraq we need to really sort of double down on our commitment to Ukraine and make sure we stay the course strategic patience has almost been completely lost because things are driven by the electoral cycle, we need to show we actually believe in something and stand with these people to the end.

47:46Well Mr Witkoff is out and about today trying to bring about peace in Ukraine. I think he's called President Putin a humanitarian today. It's all very bizarre. What is Donald Trump up to? I don't know. I mean, clearly he is, I mean, I think William Hague said he's the worst president that he's seen in his lifetime. I mean, it's the chaotic nature of it, I think, that is very difficult for world leaders and for world events to keep up with. You know, only four weeks before he relieved sanctions on Russia, he'd actually signed them into law. Right. And it's very, very hard, as we've seen in this country with our prime ministers at times.

48:26It's very hard when policy shifts all over the place and you don't know whether you're coming or going for for people to react and get used to that. And, you know, clearly what he has done has not worked. You know, the Iranian war has not worked in the way he thought. Whatever he's done on Ukraine has only made it worse. And the world is a worse place because of him. And I think that's a very sad place to be. He just appears to want Ukraine to capitulate, to give up. And from what you've said about your experience with the Ukrainian people, they're not going to, are they? Well, the Ukrainian people aren't going to give up, right?

49:01And if you go out there and spend any time out there, the first thing you'll think in the first 24 hours is, yeah, these guys are up against it, but they are simply never going to quit. It's not like when we were partnering people in Afghanistan or things like that. These people are not going to quit. And, you know, I just think he hasn't really understood that. I think obviously there's a very isolationist feel to the United States at the moment. And, you know, you could argue it's setting them back a long way. Look, Trump would say, you know, he's trying to get a result out of Putin. I think people like Putin don't change.

49:34You know, he's been on this trajectory for 20 years. He's not going to change and they only respond to strength, which is why we need to get our house in order. Chris says, can you ask Johnny, support Ukraine at all costs for as long as needed? How long? What cost? What is the win strategy? Yeah, it's a good question. I think what does success look like in Ukraine? And Zelensky is thinking about this every day, whether he's prepared to stop the fighting on the current lines, whether he's ever going to see any of that territory. Honestly, I think any of those options are in the ballpark for success.

50:07the question he you know very much on their mind is that they they agree to that and then the russians never stop because that's what's happened before every time and so they kind of have no choice it's not like a i think people think that it's like a political choice them to get up every day and fight because that's what we have in this country it's not for them it's existential right they are killing their women and children every single day um so it's not it's not like they're they're short of things to do and they want to carry on this war for no reason um and i do think if you don't draw the line there, where are you going to draw it?

50:39If you're not going to draw it in Ukraine, where are you going to draw it? In Poland, in France, where do you draw it? So I think we've got to be a bit more realistic on these things. Do you have sympathy for John Healy? The budget is this time next week for coverage here on Times Radio. What should you do about defence spending? I like John. He's a decent man. I think it would be quite extraordinary to resign on the issue of a very clear pathway to 3 % of GDP and defence spending, it would be completely extraordinary to cross the fence, go and sit in the Treasury, and then not do that, and stay and roll.

51:14So, you know, it comes back to what I talk about in the book, integrity. What do you actually believe in? Are you there for yourself? Are you there because you want the next big job? Or did he actually believe in defence spending when he was the defence secretary, and is he going to show that he does? And, you know, in the real world, you have to be authentic and you have to actually have these convictions and stick by them. In politics, you don't. And that's, you know, at the moment, that's not a good place to be. We have, you know, a complete dearth of conviction politicians. And, you know, if we can get back to that, then I think we can meet the very difficult challenges of Britain in the late 2020s.

51:48But there's some way to go. Well, you say you want better people to get into British politics. But how? Why would they, frankly? I mean, you know yourself, it costs your family. It has an impact on your physical and mental health. The money is good, but not brilliant. Why would anyone do it? So I think you've got to get the right sort of, I think it attracts the wrong people. Okay. I think that this is why I wrote the book, because the whole point is that, you know, I started with this very nebulous ambition, right, to change what it meant to be a veteran. By the end, I'd created a new veterans department, bought in legislation.

52:27We now spend£6.5 billion a year on veterans. If I can do that, anyone vaguely gifted could go in and do that for a cause that they believed in. Right. And I want people who actually believe in something to go into politics and use it for what it's there for. It's not a reality TV show. It's not a show business for ugly people. Actually, for a lot of people in this country, it really matters whether social housing is run properly, public services, addiction services. It really matters. And that's those are the sort of people I want to be attracted to. And I hope that changes. So one person you really don't like, I think you called him a poisonous little man, was the then Speaker John Bercow.

53:04It's not that I don't like these people. I mean, he just is, right? Well, actually, I have met him. And when I met him, he was all right. But look, I didn't. But anyone can act. Well, I can't, actually. But yes, I take your point. So let's try to be positive because I agree with you. We need decent people to go into politics. We need better people. So who did you meet? who was truly principled, hardworking, properly cared about their constituents. I named some of them in the book. I thought Alex Chalk was an exemplary MP, right? Kind, clever, integrity, you know, his intellect. Like he dorfed me as a member of parliament.

53:41Jesse Norman, who's still there. There's plenty of them, you know, you've got... Anyone not in the same party as you? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I was close to people in the Labour Party like Peter Carl and Luciana Berger and Ruth Smead. And, you know, there are good people. But the thing is, Westminster doesn't reward that, right? You will see that you kind of rotate the same people, don't you? Even though you may have been convicted of quite a serious criminal offence that would see you out of employment in civilian life, you get regurgitated and you're smiling because you know it's true, right?

54:12And it's vaguely funny, but not if you need capable, good, upstanding people to run the country. and that's the position we're in, you know, and we've all got a role to play in it. You know, us as citizens and the way we treat MPs, the media, the way the media treats this place, you know, and I just wanted to recount my experiences in the hope that it's a small effort to make that happen. Yeah, I've got to say, having read the book, I'm even less certain that a career in politics would be the right thing for anyone because it is just tough. And, I mean, you credit your wife, Felicity, isn't it?

54:45Yeah, she's exceptional. What an incredible help to you. Yeah, she's amazing. Is she better and happier now that you're not in politics? Well, we all are. We all are, right? But it shouldn't really be like that. That's a kind of sad indictment of it, of the job. But I think it can get better. And I think there is a route out of it. But we all have to stop talking about it and actually do it, right? I mean, you know, we can't talk about standards in public life and then regurgitate the same people who've made the same, you know, mistakes. And Tories do this as much as the Labour Party are doing at the moment.

55:19Tories did exactly the same before. So it's, you know, yeah, life is completely different. I'm very lucky with my family and we live in Cornwall and I'm extraordinarily fortunate. But I am, you know, I wish it was more attractive for better people because ultimately, right, I'm a patriot and I care. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. Otherwise I'd just do my job, go back to Cornwall, go to the beach, go surfing and forget about life. but most people love this country and care deeply about it and that's only going to change if better people get into politics Kieran of 29 Commando says this is a good interview by Johnny Mercer he's honest and he does have integrity well there you go that means something because 29 is quite a small place and he was obviously served with me okay and Barry wants to know of the six and a half billion spent on vets that was the figure wasn't it how much is spent on civil servants and admin would you know a percentage i wouldn't know but i i'm not i don't join the kind of anti-civil servant brigade i found my civil servants when they work with me like if you give them that direction and leadership there's some pretty capable people in there who can solve some really difficult problems but i i i have a lot of sympathy with people who who think it's kind of bloated and i think in some areas it is that just wasn't my experience and i have to be true to that.

56:39And Helen says, I've read both of Johnny's books. And one of the delights is hearing somebody say I made a mistake and being honest about the grim horror of war and feeling responsible wrongly for a mate's death. Courage and compassion shine through. We need more of him in public life. There you go. That's very nice. Thank you. And Johnny, thank you. I've enjoyed talking to you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Johnny Mercer and his book, No Way to Run a country an outsider's journey into the heart of our broken politics is available now and if you have a politics buff in your family then i suggest you could make a lovely present towards the end of the year i can't bring myself to say the word but you know what i mean i do know what you mean yeah there's a tea and coffee cellar downstairs in the arcade you know that sells everything in tins and stuff and and i mean they are everybody's emergency destination for last minute christmas presents but they've already got an advent calendar up oh in their window an advent calendar yeah you know the the 24 mini things that you'll be able to buy from them at the end of christmas i walked extra fast past that shop in fairness i'm only weeks away a week away days away from my first christmas lunch sandwich okay well we'll all be grateful for that because you've been having that terrible tuna wrap for the last three months why don't you say it eve come on don't why are you suddenly shy here's eve i know that we actually do have a spare copy of johnny mercer's book so if you do fancy giving it to someone for christmas email and i will post it to you first come first serve thank you okay and can we all just uh before i forget can we all keep a lookout for the weirdest advent calendar uh known to mankind this year because every year more and more companies join the advent calendar opportunity don't they we know that screw fix does a lovely one yeah very very happy to receive that but there's some right old bollocks going down now.

58:31Right old bollocks? Yep. Well, I don't think I'd want that, Anne Frank, can't you? Right, join us tomorrow, if you dare. I can't imagine that. A bollock a day. And then what would be the special one on Christmas Eve? Let's not think about it. A left bollock or a penis.

59:08Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

59:55Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. everyone wants healthcare to be simpler and easier that's why united health group is fast tracking more than 60 percent of children's procedures that used to need pre-approval so more kids get the care they need when they need it and speeding up procedure approvals and payments for more than 1500 rural hospitals so they can focus on caring for their communities and that's just the start learn more at uhg.com access