Swedish balls in the freezer (with Sir Paul Smith)

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2:37So everything is content. And when I sat down, this was in front of me. So it is a little pot of BO5, matte clay, and the hold rating, Jane. Have a guess what the hold rating is. I'm so naive. Is this some sort of lubricant? No, it's for your hair. I don't think you want to put... Well, you might want to put maximum shape and define on all areas of your body, but I wouldn't recommend it. It's got a hold rating of five. So it's incredibly powerful stuff. So it will maintain a really quite substantial quiff over a period of, what, 12 hours? It certainly will. It will make a lot of things stand up straight and never come down.

3:20The man in my life uses this one. Does he? Who is this? Where has that voice come from? This is Rosie, executive producer of the podcast, who is joining us today. And will he be functioning next week as well? Yes, potentially, yeah, on one of the days, yeah. And why would that be? It's because Eve has gone on her 17th holiday. She's on holiday. She's on holiday. Well, yeah, she's on holiday. And Jane's got some news for the group. I'm away next week. you're away next week too on holiday what's going on it's september i mean this is time to just tidy up your desk sharpen your pencils get some new long white socks that still have some elastic and fit around the heel and just get down to work i know just dig in where are you going well a well no a european country starting with g are you going to germany again The other one.

4:16I'm going to get, they're going to start asking if I can just stop bothering them, aren't they? Well, you picked a better week to go to Greece this week. Do you know what? That smells a bit funny, the matte clay heavy hold. I hate the smell of it. I hate the smell. What if it was like bobble gum or something? Yeah. Well, do you want to, if this is used in your household, do you want to take this back for your fantastic fiancée? No, thank you. Because I worry that somebody's fingers might have been in it. Well, they're bound to have been, aren't they? Yeah. And we're all about health and safety.

4:46Right. Nathan has emailed, and he thinks he might have more holidays than Eve. I mean, it's debatable. He also says he liked hearing about Eve meeting Bill Nighy. I met him just after Pride was released. That's the film, when I was working at British Airways. What a kind, engaging man he was. He even had a photo taken with me. Have you seen that? Well, I have. Bill Nighy. And I thought that Nathan's allowed to have more breaks than Eve because he works, obviously, in the travel industry. Well, I don't think he is now. He said when I was working at, so maybe he's moved on. Eve, on a side note, he says, you must start bringing back holiday sweets or biscuits for Jane and Fee to enjoy.

5:24You, like me, are a fan of a getaway. I mean, I should say so. And it's greatly appreciated when I return from one of my many getaways. I'm on 10 so far for this year. Do enjoy your travels, Eve, and spend 10 euros, or the equivalent, on treats for the workplace. Be well, everyone, says Nathan. What a nice, positive message from Nathan. One of life's glasses half full, people. Thank you for that. And yes, Bill Nighy, he's obviously one of those people everyone enjoys meeting, and he seems to enjoy meeting everyone, so everyone's a winner. Well, he's definitely happy to do the selfie thing, isn't he?

5:57Yeah. Yeah, which is lovely. And that's a very nice shot of Nathan in uniform. Sorry, that sounded a bit weird, Nathan. Sorry. That would be a perfect prompt to say a big hello to David, who stopped me at the tube station this morning and we had a very nice little chat. He is a very sensible young gentleman. He was on his way to his job, which was as a... An actuary. No, a podcast producer. Oh, that's better, isn't it? Isn't it, Justin? He had a really lovely, firm and welcoming handshake and I think that's something to be commended in the young person. So, David, it was very nice to meet you.

6:35And I'd completely forgotten to say hello to Amanda, our eyes met across a crowded bar and this was before my holidays and I just said I'd give her a shout out because she was a really, really lovely person to meet as well. And can I also do a roll call of Peter Granger addicts? Gone, yes, because you've had a lot of emails. So many people have emailed the podcast to say that they've got stuck in them too for all of the right reasons. Once you start, I don't know whether it's something about the way that he ends every book that really makes you want to keep going with the story. Whatever it is, it's incredibly clever.

7:12So Joanne, and Joanne is the woman who also detailed us quite an extraordinary story about an overheard conversation with a nanny. Yeah, which we're not going to read out. No, we can't. We really can't, but wow is all I can say about that. Yes. It happened some time ago, we should say. Well, it did, Joanne, and thank you for relating it to us. And obviously we're very glad that it had a happy ending because Jane and I just couldn't believe it when we read it, actually. I mean, I think some of the things that go on in the world of nannies are, you know, they can be wonderful. They can also be a bit, oh, my God.

7:46Angela is hooked as well. Bridget's husband has done all 20 Peter Granger novels in the course of the last six weeks. Right, six weeks. He's been busy. Bridget, I hope he's been attentive towards you. Can I ask a tough question? I haven't seen them in bookshops. They are in bookshops now. But they're very recent to the bookshelf because the incredible story of Robert Partridge, real name, is that he was self-published for years and years and years until there was this massive auction for his books as all of the major publishers went, oh my God. I mean, he'd sold a million copies just through his own self-publishing in the online world.

8:27So if you do that, you don't make the bestseller charts? Oh, good question. I'd never seen his name. I didn't, I, anyway, this is, it's a fantastic story, as you say, and so many people, just judging by our email inbox, absolutely love what he does. He's quality writing, but that is a very good question about the bestseller lists. I honestly don't know the answer to that. But if the bestseller lists aren't including online sales, then that's a bit bonkers, isn't it? Or self-published work. They're probably not, I don't know, we don't know. Anyway, no, the list carries on, I'm not done yet. But Francesca is on her fifth consecutive book.

9:00Jeannie struggled to do an Ian Rankin, which she was intending to do in the middle of Two Peter Grangers and just couldn't do it. And Rachel can't alternate either. So we're all in the same boat, but let's just enjoy it because it's so rare to find a new author with such a huge back catalogue. That is the joy of it. Yeah, that's why I'm in my Elizabeth Jane Howard period with the Castellet Chronicles. I can no longer call them the Castellet Chronicles So every time I pick it up, I'm back with the catalay. Nice bit of bean, bit of sausage, lovely unctuous gravy. Fantastic. And I'm taking a couple of those on my trip next week and also some workbooks.

9:37Because as regular listeners will know, our commitment to work is unceasing. Well, I mean, as detailed by our extraordinary devotion to the working schedule over the summer. I think we've got a decent run of everybody being in the office for at least six or seven weeks coming up. so forgive us. No, we haven't. We haven't. Okay, look. No, hang on, Rosie. Where are you going? I'm going, sorry, I'm going nowhere, just to say. Eve's not got another one. Eve's not got another one, no, but somebody else in this room does have one at the end of October. Oh, I know, but that's what I mean by six or seven weeks because, I mean, hands up, baby, hands up.

10:17Yes. Don't never say that again. Why? Hands up, baby, hands up. What does that come from? Hands up. Is that D-I-S-C-O? No, I'm going to say it's Ottawa. Is it? D-I-S-C-O. Yeah, it is Ottawa. God, people are absolutely praying we get to find out who it is. What? We've got about six weeks together, sorry. All right, well, let's look forward to that. We do have a guest in this podcast too. It is the fashion designer, Paul Smith. Sir Paul Smith. Oh, God. Sir Paul Smith. And when he came in, what was he wearing? This is the key thing. Because fashion designers, I've interviewed some, and although their designs are incredibly bold and colourful, so many of them just wear a navy blue jumper and black trousers.

11:04Yes, he was wearing one of his unstructured suits. So it's in a kind of fawn, beige-y colour, probably has a proper term. And he was wearing a Paul Smith, absolutely on-brand striped shirt. one stripe going down all of the front and the sleeves and then a slightly different stripe on the cuff because that's the twist that he adds. So he looks very dapper, as you'd expect him to look. And, I mean, he is remarkable. He's 80 years old. The detail that I love about him is that he still... He loves retail so much, and if you read his book, it's a love letter to retail, I think more than it's a love letter to design.

11:45so he really enjoys being in shops so he's still a saturday boy at his mayfair store so if you go and buy a paul smith beanie whatever it is he can afford yeah then uh you you will probably see sir paul serving behind the counter by the i've just listening to you there talking about the possibility of buying a beanie i've suddenly um gone back to this morning and the news about ai possibly ending us all within well by the end of the decade how are we just sitting here why aren't we're running around screaming and saying stop in a very loud voice is there just no point is there so we've just got to carry on it's such a huge thought yes i wish i hadn't brought it up what are we meant to do well that's that's my question yeah yeah that's my question i don't have any answer um but there have been stories before yes about uh sorry am i boring you no no but you know we've always thought about apocalyptic events and this is just the latest and say just about meteorites heading towards Earth.

12:43And I think we're such a hopeful species we can't bear to think like that. So, yeah. I think if it's going to happen, Jane, it's going to happen. I do feel genuinely, as a very small 58-year-old woman with quite a busy life, it's not for me to try and sort this one out. I mean, it's just not. so I know that might seem unhelpful but I don't know whether other people feel more powerful in the whole let's stop AI thing. Well it's because the people in charge, none of them, are prepared to stop the very thing that might cause a catastrophic incident because they all think if the others are keeping on doing it we must keep on doing it too.

13:30Yeah and that fantastic book Supremacy by the journalist Parmy Olson which is about exactly that, the fact that AI and its superannuated speed was fuelled initially by competition to get there first between two great big powerhouses of it instead of what's this going to do to the world. So things have already been unleashed just because you can do it and you can get out there and you can be the first. And that's not the sensible way to develop something so powerful. So I'm backing myself into my own corner. I mean, should we just shut up shop? shall we just go and have a nice meal at the canteen and just wander along the Thames together hand in hand and call it a day?

14:11Come on. Come on, everybody. I know what we're going to do, Fee. We're going to talk about The Archers Live. Oh, good. This is from Frances in Sevenoaks. Armageddon, me now. Exactly.

14:25Frances has got a report for us. She went to The Archers Live tour on Sunday in Woking. Now, that's a sentence that, Fee, you would never write, isn't it? No, when I saw that in the email, my eyes glazed over and I clicked onto the next one. Frances took her 26-year-old daughter. Frances says, I'm a typical Archers fan, brought up listening through my parents, drifted away as a teenager, then just found myself back. And that's where I've stayed for the last 30 plus years. My daughter only came along to keep me company, reminding me that she hadn't heard it for a while because I listened to the omnibus doing jobs around the house with my headphones on.

15:00so she did not come along as a fan but she really enjoyed it despite being one of the youngest youngest there didn't follow any of the references she does sound golden this daughter actually how lovely of her to go along with you angela barnes was the host she was funny and entertaining four of the main characters were there and the ingenious sound engineer they all chatted about their experiences and performed a couple of scenes involving the sound effects we had a sound effects demonstration which is very interesting seeing the various items that were used to create the desired effect. All impressive and it really came across just how much they loved being involved in the programme.

15:35There was also an interactive quiz and a couple of polls. I would highly recommend it if you're a fan. Polls here is spelt P-O-L-L-S just to be absolutely clear. I would highly recommend it if you're a fan and it is possible that the Archers might have gained one more listener. I don't know Francis. I mean in my experience 26 year olds are not entertained by the archers but well what is in the archers for the younger listener well there's a lot of young characters in it in fairness what do they get up to oh well everything you'd expect them to get up to and more making kefir um i'm not sure anyone is actively oh well there is a dairy so some people are making there was a kefir plot because i remember it being pertinent to the podcast for a while where people brought us kefir as gifts that's right um i'm not sure there's a major a kafir twist ongoing in Ambridge at the moment.

16:27But there is a lot going on always. And there's a lot at the moment about inheritance and land disputes. And honestly, I'm not going to sell it to you. If I sat here for all eternity or however long we've got left, which could be three years, I will not convince Fee to join us in Ambridge. But hang on a sec. OK, if you're going to describe something as being absolutely fantastic and you must jump on board, what's it about land disputes? there's just something about the term that it's just immediately like no okay i'm busy what nonsense actually uh mia who is the chaplain at newcastle university uh mia you're a very kind person i know uh and you've actually said there are lots of archers fans who like my like myself who haven't seen this live show i don't want to hear any spoilers oh dear sorry i'm going next month to the time theater in newcastle right okay all right right well i i hope that you sensibly walked away for a little bit.

17:26Yeah, but it sounds like you'll enjoy it. Oh, dear. I did another couple of Colin from Accounts last night and it just gets better and better. That does not disappoint. This is definitely the last series, isn't it, they've said. Absolutely no more after this. So I had to put the brakes on so I've still got another two left, I think, to watch, which I want to do with a glass of wine. Oh, a glass of wine. Why don't you cheat yourself on a glass of wine? Well, I can't do a glass of wine during the week. They were during the week. I don't. And I just have two glasses of wine at the weekend. Okay, yes.

17:59Yes. Margaret is in South Norwood. And she has also seen The Archers Live, but we can't do any more. Oh, God, we're still on that. We can't do any more spoilers. She does say, as a young child, I lived in Barnes and my infant school was in Fanny Road. Shouldn't be funny, but I'm sorry it is. They did actually change the name to St Hilda's Road as the Fanny Road sign kept on being stolen. Well, we've been sent a picture of the head girls of boarding school, which I don't know whether we can do. I'm reluctant to really openly chortle. I don't know. Maybe you'll feel all right about it. I'm not sure what I feel, Colin.

18:45OK, let's move on. Back with Colin from Accounts. Let's just say some of the girls were called Fanny, weren't they? They were. Yeah. And you just, what's the matter, Rosie? My, I went to primary school in a village called Cockfield. What's funny about that? Nothing. Just wanted to add to the conversation. Thank you. Primary school? Yes. My primary school was in a village called Cockfield. I went to Cockfield Primary School. And can you remember what year, as in the year groups of school, people started sniggering and laughing at that? Well, actually, I don't think we ever did because I went, It was a primary school that only went up to year four because I did a middle school system where I'm from.

19:25Interesting. So I went to three schools. So I was only nine when I left. But when I went to middle school, yes, it was discussed. Yes, well, it would be, wouldn't it? Pure Isle. You wouldn't get that kind of thing here. It's a lovely village, though. Good. I'm very glad to hear it. Why was it named? Do we know? Well, because there would have been cocks in it. Cockroles? Yes. I mean, that's the whole point, isn't it? Cocks are completely normal things. They're beautiful. Absolutely marvellous. I mean, there are still a few cocks there. I'm sure there are. Let's try and move away from cocks. Well, we're going to talk commodes in a minute.

20:00Carry on. When I woke up this morning, I didn't think that was a sentence I was going to have to say, but I have said it now. It is Karen, who joins us from Perth. And Karen says... In Scotland? No, she says, g'day, Fee. Right. So I've accented that purely for you, Karen. We've had complaints. Just to answer your question, Colin from Accounts is indeed hugely popular in Australia. I just finished the last episode of the final series with a massive, ugly laugh cry. It is all you could hope for. It is perfection and wouldn't expect anything less. There has also been a suggestion that if we really, really like Patrick Bramall, which I believe we do, then one of our correspondents, desperately searching for the correct email at the correct time has recommended something called upper middle bogan which stars him and is from a couple of years ago uh oh it's karen again and she thinks that we would very much enjoy it so bogan and i tried to work this out because it featured in a maths quite heavily is a very australian term uh for somebody within their class system and I won't hazard a guess as to what because I'm bound to get it wrong not actually being Australian I mean sometimes it's hard to believe isn't it it is you come in every day with that hat with the corks on it I feel yeah I have an affinity maybe um uh so thank you for that recommendation uh that's fantastic and I will definitely definitely give that a go um Sarah of Ledbury uh regular correspondent from that beautiful market town incidentally um Sarah says like me she does not like the adjective quirky i just always i've got it in for quirky don't like it at all let's abandon it never use it again um she does confess um that she hasn't actually researched best of hardwick one of our topics this week for new joiners but i do recall the chatsworth connection and i imagined her in a fabulous elizabeth the first dress ladying it or lording it about in the grounds.

22:04As to the idea that there was no loo in the bedroom, something identified by a correspondent's mother yesterday, I did wonder if they might have had commodes back then, such as the things that turn up on the antique roadshow occasionally. I'm sure Fiona Bruce has mentioned them. Some elaborate carved thing could be worth thousands. Sarah, thank you for that thought. I suppose, would the Elizabethans have had commodes? I suppose they probably... I'm sure they would. They would, yeah. I mean, I can't see Fiona Bruce peering into an Elizabethan commode. I can quite happily. I'm sure she has. I'm sure she has.

22:42Yes, I mean, we used to have, I think my gran used to have something called what she referred to as a gazonda. Goes under the bed. Yeah, goes under the bed. But I know that you're old, but your grandmother wouldn't have been an Elizabethan. She wasn't. No. No, not quite. But you'd have to have a commode, wouldn't you? Because in the middle of the night, you're not going to be able to just switch on the landing light and head on into a bathroom. Not in Elizabethan toilet. No, the flushing toilet wasn't a thing. Wasn't Hampton Court Palace one of the first places where something resembling a flushing toilet was installed, which would have been for Henry VIII?

23:26Oh, I didn't know that. I think that's a tiny little nugget of history that has stayed in my frontal lobe. I should know this, considering the number of times I had to visit the History of Toilets exhibition at the Science Museum with my kids. I should know that. You should. Shame on you. I'm very sorry. So I saw Tears for Fears live at Hampton Court. Did they flush? Was the adequate sewerage provided? For some reason I found the whole thing, the juxtaposition of one of my favourite 80s bands and Hampton Court. It's a little bit disquieting. Well, but it's funny, isn't it? Because quite often the massive country house is now the backdrop to huge gigs because they have to diversify, don't they?

24:09Oh, yeah. Now, we sent out the Sudochrome Challenge, didn't we? Other programmes aim in different directions, but we're very much aiming at the bathroom cabinet here. This one comes in from Fran who says, I am the person who finished a tub of Sudochrome. See attached photos for evidence. no idea how he got it but presumably parental negligence getting it out of his mouth was a particular highlight now your son has just really done the business with the pseudogram it is everywhere we've got a photograph of it all over the mattress it's all over the walls and then it's all over him and i think he's just he's put it all over his mouth hasn't he and he's just realized that it doesn't taste nice.

24:54It doesn't taste nice at all. So you get a prize and Jo, listening from near Paris, she gets a prize as well because she thinks that her husband has got the oldest pot mentioned on the pod so far. It's a big quarter of a kilo pot, about half used. He's still using it. What does he use it for? And why did he buy it quite some time ago? it expired in January 1999 that's a 20th century pseudochrome it is I'll be on the Antiques Roadshow before you know it it certainly will and there is photographic evidence to prove it and that is phenomenal so yeah two supplementary questions what does he use it for why did he buy such a big pot if you could answer both of those Jo that would be great but if you could beat 1999 Jane and Fee at Times.Radio and we do need the photographic evidence.

25:51We do. We're cheating. We're not having it. This is from Anonymous, who writes, I feel oddly like your podcast yesterday was less a podcast and more a slightly alarming synopsis of my life. I have just gone back to work after maternity leave as the manager of a stately home. So I am extremely well versed in historic plumbing and I can confirm absolutely no en-suites. In fact, I have 209 rooms and one shower. but that's another story. I've also somehow finished not one, but two tubs of Sudocrem this week. Add to this a three-year-old, a ten-month-old, a full-time job and precisely no village, I can confirm the mental load is currently swallowing me whole.

26:34The thousand tiny things permanently open in my brain. Appointments, nursery, clothes they've outgrown, postpartum recovery, nappies, snacks, tidying, medicine, birthday presents, laundry, meal planning, where that missing shoe is and whether that cough is becoming a cough. But it's the emotional weight of it too, being needed so constantly that by bedtime there's barely any of you left, counting down the minutes until they're asleep, then missing them once they are, losing your patience, feeling awful, apologising and trying again. Wanting quite desperately five bloody minutes where nobody needs anything from you and then when the little arms reach for you, somehow finding a tiny bit more to give.

27:16there's so much of motherhood that nobody sees um right it's nice to feel seen she says slightly less nice to realize quite how seen right okay anonymous um it sounds like you're currently going through it on every front but we are so glad that you're part of our community and i mean i appreciate there's a limit to how much you can tell us but that that place you're managing i I mean, 209 rooms. Give us an idea of where it is and which stately home that is. That sounds like quite an undertaking and that's before you've got home to everything going on there. Yeah, they are very, very, very, very busy years and it's funny, isn't it, Jane, because sleep is obviously necessary, incredibly welcome, sometimes quite difficult to get to, but it performs a different function in those years, doesn't it?

28:06It gets you to the next day. That's pretty much all it does. Like a bridge. Yeah, and I think that when you're so caught up in that and you've got no other option, it's hard to think that there'd ever be a time when it changes back into something a little bit more pleasurable. But it really does, doesn't it? Yes. We should send out that message. It really does. One day, one of your children, Anonymous, could accompany you to the archer's life. Think of that. Yeah, I mean, neither of mine would. It's a little bit doom-laden. I was intending to be supportive. Oh, no, it's just properly hard. And, of course, they are wonderful and it's so wonderful to have them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

28:51But bloody hell, it's also a knacker. Yeah. And then you're working as well. And as she says, she doesn't have a village. Not everybody does have. No. Masses of support. No, they don't. And sometimes, you know, people who do have a village around them, it can be difficult to be around them if you don't have a village because it can be a very, very isolating experience and not everybody has got somebody on tap. This is from Faye and it's such a lovely email and it is about trying to find that balance in very, very early parenting when the odds are pretty stacked against you. So here we go, Faye.

29:31I'm another listener who's found her way back to your podcast postpartum. I listen during my daily pram stomps or in the wee hours when up breastfeeding. and in need of something to keep me awake. Bar the examples above, I'm likely having a fairly different postpartum experience to many because my husband works rotationally in China. He spends six weeks away and then two weeks back home and has done since I was in my third trimester. Do you say trimester or trimester? Oh, trimester. Trimester. I don't know. We've given you both there. He's always worked rotationally in one pattern or another since we met, so this has always been our situation to some degree and due to that pattern and our son's late arrival my husband only had five days from when our son was born to when he had to go back to China.

30:18It was devastating at the time as I had an unplanned C-section and we were so worried about the lengthy recovery period whilst I'd be on my own but we made the best of the newborn bubble while we had it before he returned to work though of course that was bittersweet. Ultimately I was fortunate to feel well physically not long after and was supported by my wonderful parents for a few weeks, travelling up from York to Scotland and staying with me in shifts around those busy jobs, around their busy jobs, sorry. Now, five months on, the weeks-long periods of parenting solo is our new normal. I'm very lucky that in addition to my parents' early support, my boy Darcy is easygoing and sunny.

30:58They're still a naff sleeper, which has made this doable, if not genuinely enjoyable, most of the time. And when my husband is home, he's a very present father, doing all that he can to ensure the load is shared by batch cooking meals for when he's away and sorting a fortnightly cleaner etc. Further to ensure my husband doesn't miss out on too much of our son's babyhood I've also flown out with our son from Edinburgh to Shanghai twice now to join him for the last weeks of his rotation. This has actually made our setup slightly more conventional in that dad works during the day and is back in the evening to join us for dinner that's a hotel buffet, take over bath times, nappy changes and share the middle of the night resettles.

31:40So whilst definitely not a conventional start to new parenthood for either of us, I'm proud that we have muddled through together. It's definitely tough. Neither parenting on your own for weeks at a time or in an unfamiliar country from a hotel could ever be considered easy, but we are finding our rhythm as a family. Thank you for the podcast. It's a wonderful tethered to back home and you say i can't help myself as a proud new mum i've attached a photo of darcy practicing his sitting and he is such a cutie he's lovely i mean he is just what uh what a bobbin of a bobbin he is uh that smile is just to die for isn't it uh an absolute cutie may i say he's doing sitting up ever so well i mean it's quite something when your child sits up oh it's No, it really is incredible, and he is absolutely gorgeous.

32:32And I think you're doing more than modelling. I think you're both, all three of you, are doing brilliantly well. Very much so. I'm completely in awe of your capacity to do exactly that, I have to say. Edinburgh to Shanghai. You've got to be joking with a baby. It's such a schlep. And actually, you're right. I mean, you encapsulate it in just one sentence, but being in a hotel room with a baby on your own for days at a time is a massive ask. Another thing I couldn't understand. So, Faye, just well done to all three of you. And, you know, I hope that, you know, some kind of, I don't want to say better balance, because you're definitely getting through it all.

33:10But I hope that you don't have to carry on at that pace forever, actually, because maybe that would be a bit more unsustainable. But thank you for sharing that with us as well. It was very good to know. And actually, we should say, our regular correspondent Anita has become a grandmother. She sent us a lovely photograph earlier in the week of her beautiful grandchild as well. So we do like to be kept informed. And also, I just love a picture of a bubba. I do love a picture of a bubba. Well, I'll bring in some of my baby photographs, it'd be like when I get back from holiday. I was a very fugly child, sadly, so there were almost no images at all of me as a baby.

33:47There were so many of my sister. Anyway.

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36:22Karen says, I've listened to you for quite some time, either in the gym, where I laugh out loud, or as you lull me into sleep. Both options are good. I love the discussion some weeks ago about Vesta packet meals. Do you remember this? I think it must have been when I was away, one of those many times. Could be a different podcast. But anyway, who knows? Because she makes a good point. In my teens, in the early 70s in Barnsley, I thought the Vesta beef curry was the height of sophistication and fine dining. And she says, and I think this is probably true, that on the cover of the Vesta beef curry, they would add a slice of cucumber as a kind of...

37:02Serving suggestion. Serving suggestion. An adornment. This, for some reason, has stayed with Karen over many, many years. Now, I don't remember the cucumber. But I do remember the Vesta beef curry. It was one of the few packets meals sold in my student hall of residence tuck shop. And it was something that on a Sunday night when there was no meal provided because I was in catered halls due to me having an appetite. You could pour a bit of boiling water over a beef curry and try and pretend you were at home having a lovely roast your mum had made you. Didn't really work. It wasn't the same. It never is the same.

37:39So our student population now are quite spilt for choice and things. They can pour bowling water over, aren't they? Oh, yes, they are. They really are. Honestly, kids, you may have trouble in any other number of different areas, but by God. Reconstituted food. You're laughing. Your quick snack options are multiplied by a trillion compared to what was available to us. But it's the whole serving suggestion thing that really makes me laugh. And you still do get it. You know, packets of crackers, there'll be a really enticing image of a cracker with a bit of cheese on and it'll say, you know, serving suggestion.

38:20How about doing this? Treating yourself. Stick a bit of cheese on top of the biscuit. Go on, go for it. Oh, it's just laughable, isn't it? The food packaging is quite funny. Do you know what? I did take a picture only this morning, actually. I was in my local Cost Increases. is that the shop that sells everything that's convenient to home it is it's another good reason to buy your house there's a oh there's a there's a wonderful selection of retail and in fact there's some that we live at the top of an extraordinary street for uh food and wine and i'm looking at you food and wine yes at me yes because down the bottom of the road there's this, you know, what used to be Butcher Baker Candlestick Maker back in the day a small parade of shops that over the years have stopped being that small parade of shops and we should definitely rue their passing but what's emerged in their place is this pedestrianised basically, because it's a low traffic neighbourhood road which has got cafes, it's got a cafe, a delicatessen it's got two really, really amazing local restaurants It's got a fantastic local Italian restaurant, one of the best in London, Jane, called Ornella, where you can pop down for a beautiful bowl of pasta.

39:41Fancy Bryce's? So it is high-end cooking, so you are paying for a really beautiful meal, but it's not beyond daft, which some other places are. Not too far away, some other places are beyond daft. I'm only smiling at Rosie because Rosie has a connection to that particular restaurant. She owns it. No, it's a fantastic place. It's a lovely part of town. By the house. By the house. There are restaurants. Shops open 24-7. And I live nearby. And Rosie's nearby. Oh, Rosie's nearby. And she's a very good neighbourhood Nelly. She'll always help you out. Do you want to describe that? That arrived in Coscutter's freezer section today.

40:27I thought it said dumpy Swedish balls. What does it say? It says oomph with an exclamation mark. Swedish balls. And that's just what they are. That's the product. The product is just Swedish balls. Is that like an Ikea Swedish meatball kind of thing? Well, I think it's a takedown. It's exactly that, but they're plant-based and that's just what they put on the front. Great big bag of Swedish balls. I just think the only frozen thing you should be buying from a shop like that is a Ristorante pizza. I just don't think you should be buying anything. Ristorante? I think those kind of items are for Sainsbury's and you're named brands, I think.

41:10I see. Okay. It's just the fact that it just says Swedish balls on it that would make you a little concerned. I just think it's an odd thing to buy from a corner shop. Yes, I'm with you on that. There are many, many things that we can buy in the corner shops of Dalston now that are just extraordinary. So no joke, the condiment section of our local shop is bigger than the household cleaning section. So even the massive, great big rolls of toilet paper are not taking up as much room as kimchi. It is wild, actually, because I was just in Italy and you forget living in London and most of the UK, actually not everywhere in the UK, but if you're in a relatively big town, how much you can get.

41:49And when I was on the coast in Italy, we couldn't even get soy sauce. Oh, my God. How did you go? oh god i wasn't looking for it but i just noticed yeah there was no i know what you mean and you can literally just go to the shop at the end of my road and get a full if you wanted you could cook a three-course japanese meal from the co-op a friend of mine a school friend of mine i had a drink with over the summer is has been living in sydney for a long long time most of her life now and she says um that she really doesn't think that the australians got supermarkets not in the way that we have here.

42:23She says she can't believe how good even a so-called bog standard supermarket in the UK is compared to what is available to her in Australia. So I know we've got lots of listeners in Australia. If you have experience of the British alternative to a supermarket and you do think it's better than what you have, do let us know. Equally, you might want to make a passionate case for the Australian supermarket. But my school friend was saying she just couldn't, I mean, you know, exactly that. 16 different sorts of mayonnaise, endless, quite sophisticated and really now fairly tasty ready meals any number of different nationalities we've got the lot haven't we well we come to britain we've got the lot actually i think it's a really interesting topic of conversation because i wonder whether other countries have quite so many supermarkets as we do so our supermarkets are that they're quite a kind of arterial force in this country aren't they and we often we know exactly what each supermarket represents we know the different demographic.

43:18There was a lot of competition between them, but I wonder whether other countries, within a square mile in London, you would be able to go M &S, Waitrose, Sainsbury's, Aldi, Morrison's, Little, Tesco, Co-op. That's eight major branded supermarkets and they'd all be there, represented somewhere, wouldn't they? I thought that was really good, your list of supermarkets. I had to leap in with Tesco just so I could be a part of that. That's good. She's very good at naming supermarkets. If you were asked to name supermarkets to win a prize, you'd have won that fee. Well, we could make our eventual appearance on Celebrity Pointless, couldn't we, and hope that supermarkets came up.

43:59Let's bring in Sartorial God. Just before we do, I've literally put my hand up in Jane's face. I just want to add the word booths. Because our correspondents in the north will be upset. Oh, yes, you're quite right. Who's our guest today, Fee? Sir Paul Smith. Sir Paul, what an absolute pleasure to meet you. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. We're talking quite early in the morning, but I don't think that bothers you. You are a morning person, aren't you? You are a lark. I love early mornings, especially because of where we live in London. And I swim at five o 'clock most mornings. And I love it.

44:37I get to work at six-ish and the cleaners are in, and me. and then first appointment's about 7.30. But all of that is wonderful. I love it. Because, you know, you have time to think and be yourself. And also you could actually drive through London at that time of the morning. That is very true. And presumably you get to swim in quite an empty place as well. I swim in the Royal Automobile Club, which is closed sadly at the moment for refurbishment. So we've missed it. but I also go to the Lansdowne Club, which I've been a member of for years. And there's normally about four of us. And we are called, guess what, the early morning swimmers.

45:26I would have hoped something a bit more imaginative. We're allowed now. We didn't used to be allowed. We used to sneak in probably illegally, but not illegally. But you know what I mean? We used to switch the lights on. Yeah, this is a lovely vision, Sir Paul, lovely vision. Were you always up with the larks when you were a child and when you were a teenager? Tell us a bit about home life because you are the youngest child by a country mile in your family. That's right. As I think you know, it was a gift from God, mistake in brackets. And yes, so I was like an only child really. And I honestly can't really remember much about my childhood until I got to the age of 11.

46:08and that was because there were two punctuation marks at 11. One was a racing bicycle, which was bought for me by my dad, and then also a camera, a Kodak Retinet film camera. My father was an amateur photographer and also the founder member of the local camera club just outside of Nottingham, which still exists, the Beeson Camera Club. And the wonderful thing about both those things was, one is the gentleman we bought the bicycle from was a member of the local cycle club and said, why don't you come out with the club on a Sunday and you're very welcome. And I started doing that at 12 and looked around and there was no parents.

46:59And it was just sort of very lovely and special. And of course, lived in Nottingham, So we used to go to Derbyshire and all the rolling hills and the treat of the CTC cafe that you would find now and again, the Cycle Touring Club, beans on toast. And it did give you dreams and ambitions of being a professional racing cyclist, didn't it? But your parents weren't completely keen on that. No, no. At the age of 15, I was not very bright at school and my love was cycling. and I left, my father said, I want to go on to like a technical college or something like that. And I said, I want to be a professional cyclist.

47:43And he said, sadly, that's not a real job, which at the time he was absolutely correct because there were no professional teams in Great Britain at all, mostly in Belgium and France. But also you went on to have a terrible cycling accident, didn't you? Yes, at the age of 17, yeah. But started to work at 15, which was fantastic, actually, because I worked for a very old-fashioned company that switched the lights off when there was nobody in the room and used the back of invoices for notepaper and undid the string of a parcel. And so when I eventually got my own little business, age 21, things like that stuck in my mind and seemed terribly old-fashioned at the time, but they were really useful.

48:28And, yes, at 17 I had a bad crash, three months in hospital, And when I came out, luckily, two of the other patients were released at that time, same time. And one of them said, oh, let's keep in touch. We always used to get on each other, shouting to each other across the ward, morning, how are you? And one of them luckily chose to meet up in a pub called the Bell Inn in Nottingham. And that's where all the arts students went. And so suddenly this whole language that I'd never ever witnessed before, I remember talking to a young man who turned out to be a fine artist called... I love the work of Vasily Kandinsky.

49:11And, of course, I had no idea even how to say the words Kandinsky or the Bauhaus, which, of course, is the famous German design school. And I thought that the Bauhaus was probably a council house estate near Nottingham or something. So there was this amazing sort of world opening up to me. I thought, I wonder if you can earn a living actually doing something which is creative. Well, I mean, Sir Paul, the answer is yes. You absolutely can. Well, so far, so good. 56 years in. Before we talk about retail and design, I was really interested in your childhood. I mean, it shapes our entire lives, doesn't it?

49:55And your dad had this flair, didn't he, for designing bits and pieces. who was a proper Heath Robinson, he feels to me in the book like a very entrepreneurial spirit. Yes. Did he have a sense that you went the distance that he couldn't go? That often happens, doesn't it? Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think that's correct. What I do think is correct is he was entrepreneurial in a way which wasn't financial. He was... I don't think he ever employed anybody to do any work on the car or the house, not because he was mean or didn't have the money, but just because he could do it, you know. So he would paint the house or repair the car.

50:44And I think in the book it mentions he, at 92, I noticed a piece of metal on the wall and I said, oh, what's that, Dad? And he said, oh, don't look at that. He said, I made a shoehorn because I couldn't get my shoes on at 92, you know, which is lovely. But this is such an inherited trait for you, isn't it? Because you clean out the fridge at work. You know, you are there emptying the bins when they need emptying. You're the problem solver in all of your businesses in a tiny practical way as well as... Very much influenced by my first job and my father, yeah. And my quite good success in Japan, which started in the 80s, I really cite that on my communication skill, which came from my dad.

51:34And because in 82 in Japan, the company I was working with, one person spoke schoolboy English and that was it. So it was very much about gesture and humour and somehow working out the situation where you could communicate with somebody in a very visual way rather than the language, using the language. And I definitely think that was to do with my father. And you say that you feel that your mum didn't have a huge influence on you, but what she created around you was warmth and calm. And she had a beautiful voice. And you also say that you have inherited from her something that you might consider to be a weakness, which is a desire to avoid confrontation.

52:22But actually that can be a massive strength, can't it? Yes, I mean, I think I'm not a confrontational person at all and the clothes are definitely not confrontational because I was sort of weaned in my 20s of, you know, really amazing designers around the world, Jean-Paul Gaultier from France, Vivienne Westwood, and they did very extreme clothing. And I call those confrontational clothes, you know, where, look at me, attention-seeking clothes. And I never wanted that. But I always realised that also I needed to have a point of view, otherwise I wouldn't sell the clothes. And that's how the little expression came, classic with a twist.

53:10So you just look under a cuff and it would be in this shirt I've got on. It's blue, but inside the cuff is brown. So just tiny little things. Let's talk about the clothes. One person who it is hard to imagine your life without is your wife, Pauline. She brought something out in you, didn't she, after you had met? Tell us a bit about her and the life that you moved into after you had met her. Well, I met her and she already had two children and she lived in London. She looked amazing because she made all her own clothes and the cut and shape and the quality. And she had studied at the Royal College of Art as quite a young student at a very interesting time that sort of crossed over with the Hockney, Peter Blake era, not exactly at the same time, but either side of her.

54:06and the interesting thing, they studied couture clothes which anybody who doesn't know what that is, it's really understanding about how things are made, the understanding of shape, cut, balance, proportion, quality and so Pauline's standard from the beginning was always that and there were lots of lovely creative designers in London similar age to me and they were far more creative but sadly the clothes were normally quite badly made and if they sold to a little shop in London or Paris or New York often they would come back and the company would close down quite quickly. So you always wanted to aim high and for something stylish and smart.

54:54Take us to Paul Smith's Vetements Port-aube, forgive my accent. It was rather pretentious name, wasn't it? I was trying to be different because I had been working in a shop very near to the little room that I opened because it was a room without windows and down an alleyway. And so I thought, well, you need to do something that will attract attention. And so we had this sign that said Vetter Mont Prom, Paul Smith, in different graphics to what we use now, actually, but very modern. And it was just a way, a lot of people knew me, husband Paul Smith, and so I just sort of wanted to let people know I existed and I got this little job.

55:39Yeah. What you were doing, though, was very bold and it was very brave and you were taking a risk, weren't you? Yeah, a huge risk because Pauline was the actual person earning the money because her wages, we survived on her wages as a teacher at the art school in Nottingham, having moved from London to be with me in Nottingham. I realised that this little shop that we opened wouldn't provide an income for us to live on. And so thanks to Edward de Bono, the lateral thinker, who Pauline and I were big fans of, he said many interesting things, but one of the things he said was, the job always changes you and you never change the job.

56:23And so we were thinking, well, how did that apply to us? And then we realised this little shop full of clothes that were quite specific and probably a little bit too advanced for a shop in a provincial town, city, we wouldn't be able to survive on. So I worked Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, earning money doing styling, photography, because I could take photographs because of my dad. This is your wheeler-dealer sense, yeah. Definitely that. that and it's a good expression because in order to you know survive and to do jobs you had to be a bit cheeky you know and so um and then on friday and saturday was this lovely purity of no compromise which is almost certainly why i'm sitting here with you now and the the imprimatur of your brand is just so clear it always has been and it is about the cut it's about the style the quality but it's also about the name it's about the logo and it is about the stripes i was delighted this fantastic little detail about your logo what does it have to do with ron atkinson and well the logo the ron atkinson's uh girlfriend was called zena marsh who's luckily still with us and we love her and uh she had slightly better writing than me and so we all tried to write Paul Smith because I was keen on it was a period when graphic design was really trendy, which obviously it's always there in our society but people were trying new fonts and things and I thought to buck the trend I wanted handwriting so I wrote Paul Smith which was legible but not great and Zena, Ron Atkinson's girlfriend, wrote it and we said yes, that'll do.

58:14I think that's brilliant I mean, people just must have assumed your entire career that that's your handwriting. Yes, well, it nearly is. Yeah. And what about the stripes? Tell us about the stripes. The stripes came in the 90s with, you know, because mostly shirts, shirts for men, especially shirts, were always in burgundy and white, blue and white stripes or little neat colours like the one I'm wearing now. And it just seemed in the 90s just a period where we need to be really positive and optimistic. And so I had the opportunity. My minimum quantities were high enough to create exclusive fabrics because they're quite high quantities.

58:57And so we put together all these lovely colours and we made a shirt in 14 colours. Originally 27, went down to 14. and we sold very well and then we do working seasons. The next season, I think it was Harrods in the department store in London, came along and said, oh, we'd like that stripe again because it sold really well. I said, oh, I only did it for this summer. And he said, no, no, we want it again. We want it again. And in fact, your business took a dip, didn't it, financially, when you decided to retire the stripes? Yes, I think it's like the burden of a logo, of any sort that has a real relevance at one point and then you feel it's not quite right.

59:46And so I just stopped it completely and it was an enormous problem because it was actually, I think in hindsight, it was about£5 million loss of sales and everybody said, you're mad, you're mad. But what it did do was it gave me a breath, it gave me a breath and I remade the stripe but in more muted colours. So it's got slightly more autumnal colours now. They were a bit too primary. And I think I was right doing it. Do you know how we do the stripes? We make the stripes. I and my team make the stripes by taking a piece of white card and yarn, which we have little drawers. We have all the yarn and then we wind the yarn around a card and then we build up the colour combinations.

1:00:33And we use yarn rather than a computer because yarn is three-dimensional and so the colours reflect on each other and you get more of an accurate... Well, I'm so delighted that you do it by hand. Yeah, it's lovely. It's pretty obvious, the name, but they're called windings. And that's the way we always used to do it. I felt that your book, Life in Threads, was a love letter to retail as much as a love letter to design. I love throngs. And I really think that it's a good shop with the experience of going shopping is still lovely. And I work in the shop on a Saturday, you know, in one of my shops in Mayfair.

1:01:23Not this Saturday or next Saturday because I've got a pop-up shop in a department store. But normally I'm there and it's gorgeous because you meet people from... In that particular shot, we meet people from, you know, Norway, Athens, Paris, wherever, and you have a proper conversation, and sometimes it's quite amusing when recently I was pinning up some trousers of a gentleman, and the gentleman said to his wife, Oh, you know Jack? Jack, Jack. She said, Jack? She said, yeah, Jack. Jack apparently knows Paul Smith. He's supposed to be a nice guy. And I was pinning up the man's trousers at the time, which was quite funny.

1:02:03And beautiful. Do you look back, though, and think that because you started in different times, you had more chance of success on the high street? Floral Street in Covent Garden, which hosts your really, really beautiful, would you call it your flagship store? Yes, yeah. You initially got that lease for£25 ,000. Yes. Times are just different now, aren't they, on the high street in terms of the money? It's enormously difficult now to run a shop anywhere in the world. and you have to really think hard and long about opening a shop anywhere now because unfortunately often the rents are too high, inappropriate for the times, often because property developers have developed them and had to borrow money to develop them.

1:02:54So what do you think the future for the high street is? Are you optimistic that we will fall in love again? with being in a space and wanting to share our shopping experience? I think if the shop can be personal and feel like there's a, even though it'll be a manager, it feels like there's an owner and the shopkeeper understands about making people relaxed. And I did a talk with Peter Capaldi, the actor, last week, and he said, I remember first going into Floral Street because he said, so many shops, you felt like you needed a stiff drink and a new hairdo to go into. And he said, with Portsmouth in Floral Street, it was immediately relaxed.

1:03:46It's got all the mahogany, old mahogany fittings that I bought from an old tailor shop. The staff had been with me a long time. He always has the same lady takes care of him. And that's so old-fashioned but so modern and so different and unique. So I hope so. I hope retail will become, you know, still be there. You've lived through many different times, many different flavours of government. What do you think the current government needs to do to help the much, much younger Paul Smith get started if he were around now? I mean, as a contrary, before I answer that question directly, I mean, they took away VAT, you know, due to free shopping from us a few years ago.

1:04:34And a lot of the government, I think, attitude is like, well, why give wealthy people discount? You know, but it's bigger than that because it's to do with hotels. It's to do with restaurants. and places like the Royal Academy and Tate, you know, they really struggle with customer, with visitor numbers because, and a lot of that is to do with so many people now go to Paris or Rome where you can get duty-free shopping. And so that's one thing that we really would love to get back and it would help retail and all the other things I've just mentioned.

1:05:17I'm old enough to have worked with what I say worked as a non-political person Thatcher, Heseltine, Blair, Brown all of them I've spoken to about the importance of design and it's never really resonated properly with anybody because I don't think it's in our blood the way it is with say a lot of the countries, like in fashion anyway, Italy, it's in your blood. The newsreader in Italy or France won't make a little joke about the height of the heels of a catwalk show or wouldn't be able to catch the 59 bus in those heels. They take it very seriously because it's an industry. So we've got a prime minister who definitely likes his threads.

1:06:09Do you think that he might be different? Have you been asked to dress Andy Burnham? I haven't, no, no. Would you? Is there anyone you'd say no to? Let me be asked first, then I'll make my mind up. Interesting answer. Do you think he's stylish? He thinks he's stylish, doesn't he? I don't think he's stylish, no. I think he's smart. Same with most of them. But, you know, when you've got the more formal suit, shirt and tie, it's a form of uniform which is to do with business and obviously politicians and it's definitely I mean the suit our biggest category is suits but this is the suit, the very casual cotton jacket I've got on today is a suit so suits and suits and suits it depends on how they're designed and and how they're constructed back to Pauline.

1:07:09This has got no interlining in it, no pads, so the modern suit is a lot more relaxed. Final question. Does Sir Paul Smith ever relax at home in a pair of tracky bottoms? Sorry, tracky, you've never heard of? Tracky bottoms. What are they? Scaffolder pants, whatever you want to call them, Sir Paul. I've never heard of them. No, no. I don't own anything like that at all. No. You know, I spent 16 weeks in my studio in London, alone during Covid instead of 180 people in the building and without realising it and I only realised recently I wore a suit every day because I don't think of them as a suit I think of them as clothing I've always worn somewhere for my specs notebook, pens, keys What a fantastic image Sir Paul Smith, absolute pleasure to meet you Thank you very much indeed for coming in Sir Paul Smith and his memoir His autobiography is called My Life in Threads.

1:08:07If you want to know more about design and if you want to know more about... It's a kind of potted history of retail in this country over the last 30 years. It's the book for you. It's got pictures as well. Pictures? Yeah, and I do. I love a memoir with photographs. Absolutely love it. Love it. Which is the best photograph in there? Oh, so, well, there are some fantastic... There are a couple of ones of him and his wife, Pauline, with their Afghan hounds over the years. and we just didn't have time to talk about his Afghan hounds. Has he always had Afghan hounds? Yes, they've always had Afghan hounds.

1:08:38Afghan hounds are just the most extraordinary creatures. They are. They're very long hair. They're beautiful and statuesque and I believe some of them are quite daft as well. But you don't see very many of them around anymore and the pictures of them all together are brilliant. Well, plenty to get at, at commodes through history. Afghan Hounds, Vesta Ready Meals, and we're still on Bess of Hardwick. We'll never tire. We will never tire. And supermarkets where you live. We would like to know more about that. Good, bad or indifferent. So it'll be a combination of Rosie and me and Hannah next week.

1:09:20Yes, and Eve. She is actually back on Wednesday. Oh, she's dead to me. And Laura Hackett will be joining us on Monday. She's dead to me. And if she doesn't bring us some form of luxuriant gift, not from duty free either it has to be authentic from where is she this time? Marseille yes she's in Marseille she's in Marseille okay well I want some pastis Eve if you're listening she won't be and a very fresh croissant and then you're allowed back in the building Jane is off on her holidays to one of the many islands of Greece so we will just do our very best for you next week I hope you can join us Jane and Fiat times.radio remains the email address I'm still here have a good week

1:10:18congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case uh so you can get the radio online on dab or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosie cutler

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