The small margin between the Cheltenham and Boomtown medical tents... (with Jo Brand)

0:00Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's go.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

0:33Russell Brand is currently standing trial on charges of rape and other sexual offences. He has pleaded not guilty to them. Reporters from The Times and The Sunday Times will be in the courtroom every single day to watch what happens. Then they'll join me, Luke Jones, in the podcast studio to unpack everything they have heard. Search for The Trial of Russell Brand wherever you get your podcasts.

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1:42You can get a quote by searching AXA Health Insurance online. Pre-existing conditions are not covered. The mental health support line isn't a replacement for medical advice and is not an emergency service.

2:03Welcome. Oh, thank you. It's very kind of. Okay, now it's November the 4th and it's a Wednesday and we're... Now, can you just be honest? Because you were getting a bit, I'm mid-termed out yesterday, weren't you? But you busied yourself into the building today and you seemed very cheery. Oh, I thought. What an extraordinary result. Really extraordinary result. So if you're listening to this in a time way off in the future, these are the midterms that have really bonked President Trump's popularity on the head. It's almost like some people are beginning to have doubts about the man. The Senate and the House have both gone to the Democrat side and some astonishing victories have been had across the land.

2:53And so I think it's the America has elected its first Muslim senator. There are people of all kinds of backgrounds who have made it to the legislature, courtesy of the American electorate overnight. And I'll tell you what it does do, Jane. And I mean, this isn't giving away any of our obviously closely, closely guarded impartiality on the political spectrum. What's she about to say? I can't wait. Well, there's just a bit of relief from me that a reality is being seen by the people who it affects the most. Because you and I take a pop at President Trump often and the Secretary of War often and the motivations of the White House counsel are called into question on this podcast quite a lot.

3:40But it doesn't affect us as much as it affects the American people. And the American people have said, well, this isn't working for us. Well, obviously, there's still time in the future for all this to go completely wrong. So if you're joining us from the future, you'll probably be laughing. Yeah. But how did you feel? Well, I woke up this morning at two minutes to six, put the wireless on. And yes, I was very encouraged. Yeah. And do you know what? I didn't... You know, normally now you get your news flashes from your phone. Yes. Well, I had it on sleep mode overnight, not to reveal too much.

4:12So I hadn't had any notifications or anything. Nothing was pinging and ponging. and I thought, you know what, I want to go old school today. I want to find out from the radio what's happened. And I did. And yes, I was very pleased. Yeah. But obviously, if we've learned anything over the last 10 years or so, it's that America and Britain speak sort of the same language, but we don't really have all that much in common. We really don't. And let's just see what happens. Let's see. I mean, Donald Trump sounded weirdly contrite. Well, he did, didn't he? So I don't know what's wrong with him. He put quite a funny post up on X, actually, didn't he?

4:47Saying, my space-age laser interference of the election... That was Musk. ...hasn't worked. Oh, that was Musk. No, you're right. That was curiously comic. Yeah, curiously self-aware. Self-aware. He can't possibly have thought of that himself. Well, you never know. I mean, he's a clever bloke to have got where he's got, but maybe not in the same way that we want him to be clever. Can I just say, on this topic of political chaos, my guest tomorrow on the afternoon show and therefore on the podcast is laura koonsberg and she's got a book out called pair tension which is a romp through the last 20 years of politics in this country detailing quite the merry-go-round the speeding up merry-go-round that we've been on and that has thrown out quite a few people along the way and i heartily commend the interview to you.

5:36Do you talk about Nigel Farage? We talk a little bit about Nigel Farage. Because he hitched his wagon very firmly to DJ Trump, didn't he? Well, he did, but I don't think Trump always actually knew really who he was. I mean, he leapt over Farage to basically start being more friendly to Rupert Lowe, didn't he? So I don't know how close that connection is. We actually spend more time talking about Andy Burnham. We spend quite a lot of time just talking about what it's like to be a reporter in the world of Westminster. and we talk about the BBC, we talk about all kinds of things. So that's tomorrow.

6:08That's tomorrow. The guest on the podcast today is Jo Brand, who I love and you love, and she's great, and her book about growing old is, well, growing, you know, as it happens to be the process, we're all engaged in it. And it's very funny, as you might expect, and sort of gently revealing, I would say. But why we're taking up airtime on this podcast, I don't know, because Eve needs to tell us about what she did last night. Dom! because it's incredibly new age and adventurous. So let's bring in a voice from another generation. Here she is. Hello. Hello. What did you do last night? I went to an aerial hammock meditative gong bath.

6:48Yes, of course she did. Okay. Well, I don't have any further questions to you. That's it, my lord. Nothing else to say. And it cost you how much? It was such a weird sum of money you claimed to have paid for this. I think it was like£6.22. Is that a student rate? That just seems actually very cheap. I'm not sure. For the part of London that you were in? Yes. So it was in Highbury in Islington. You got there and they asked you to pick up two blankets and two cushions. And they asked you to wrap one blanket round your shoulders like a cape. But then your arms are constricted and you have to shuffle into your hammock.

7:24And then they come round and they put one of the cushions behind your head. And then they lay the other blanket on top of you and literally tuck you in. And then they give you the second cushion just for cuddling. And then they come round and whisper, just going to put a lavender eye mask on your eyes so you have the smell of lavender. Then they gently swing you in your hammock. I think this sounds divine. Who are they? Two kind of bearded men, but they were really lovely. They were really nice. And then they lead you through some breathing and some humming, some meditation, and then they just hit their gongs.

8:03What happens when you then leave? Because you're in quite a busy... I mean, for people who don't live in London, Highbury and Islington is a massive kind of traffic junction. Yes, basically it's just a junction. And they do advise you to be careful if you're driving or cycling home because you do feel this sort of trance state. I put on big headphones and put my hood up to protect my peace and block out the rest of the world. And you took public transport. And I had to take public transport and I just averted my eyes from anything that would disturb my peace. But there was a very lovely dog on my overground train.

8:38Actually, I felt really brightened my mood and played into it. Well, do you know what? The dogs and yoga thing is massive. And he was doing a downward dog on the train. In London at the moment. What the dog was? Yes. They do, don't they? That tells you what North London's like. Even the dogs do yoga. He was a kindred spirit. Of course, I've only just realised that. That's what you're doing. I'm a bad boy. It was a very good session and the man said to me, which really stuck with me, because I'm quite a sire throughout the day. If I get a bad email, I just sit in my desk and... Tell me about it.

9:10And he said, the deep sigh is an underrated remedy. I'm with him on that. So it actually makes you feel better? It helps with your nervous system. That's interesting. So you should be doing more. That is interesting. See, I'm not somebody who cries a great deal because I don't find that crying helps, but I absolutely take on board that for some people it really, really does help. So you might be quite into humming. Well, I am into humming. Oh, you do hum. Yeah, but that's a nervous tick. Can you not hear her humming? I hear her humming. I'm too busy sighing. Okay, if we blank each other out, it actually helps that I sit next to her.

9:46Oh, dear. Oh, that's a sigh. I think it sounds fantastic, Eve. I'm not going to knock that one at all. And also for six quid, I mean, people are... £22,£6.22. No, sorry, did I say that? 16. 16? Oh, I thought it was six quid. I thought, oh my God, I did say six quid. No, sorry, but you're given herbal tea and biscuits at the end. Oh, they've seen you coming. You're not hurried out of that. What kind of biscuits? Coconutty ones. They've had quite healthy. They're quite small. They're always disappointing, aren't they? Get those in Costco. I had to. Yeah, actually, because what you want. I think they are the ones from Costco.

10:19You want a bourbon or a custard cream. You don't want a little tiny. and I slept so well last night well that's lovely Eve, I mean all hail all hail, so we ought to try and think of an equally easy to put on off air with Jane and Fee and Eve class what would it be, well we could just hum into microphones, there is something strangely comforting about the microphone and hearing yourself through the headphones don't you think, you're not wearing your headphones I'm not wearing any because mine are broken Oh, OK. What a high-tech establishment. Don't you find that quite good? There's a very different...

10:58If I took my headphones off and I was just talking out loud... Just be talking out loud. Yeah, no, no. But you put your headphones on and something changes. Well, come on then.

11:09People have just turned off. That will be£16.22. Claire is 58 and from Derbyshire. Or a cruise ad. Take your pick. she just wants to alert me to the fact that Toto are performing in London next year celebrating 50 years I'd hate you Jane to miss out on your favourite song that of course is Africa, keep up the great work, sending best wishes Claire in Derbyshire, thank you very much for that I won't be going but I appreciate the musicianship of Toto I just can't stand that song bless the rains down in Africa get off, on about And the Serengeti. The Serengeti. Yeah, that just hints the differences between us and the United States of America.

11:56But obviously they know what they're doing. Claire, thank you very much. It's one of those soft rock classics that I just, I can't, I cannot bear. What is your favourite soft rock classic? Oh, now, is it Keep On Believing? Oh. You don't like that? Oh. Oh. You don't want that? That set you off. Right. No, I wouldn't want... I'd prefer Toto's Africa. Nobody prefers Toto's Africa. No, I would. It wasn't Keep On Believing. Isn't that... Didn't that have a bit of a resurgence, wasn't it, in Stranger Things? Yes, it's connected to Stranger Things. Don't Stop Believing. I thought that was Glee. Glee, you're right.

12:38No, you're absolutely right. You're right, it is Don't Stop Believing. Don't Stop Believing. Clearly I stopped believing some time ago because I don't even remember it. Or you've actually penned the follow-up. keep on believing and that's going to be released just before christmas i love i love that pend it's it's something that people don't normally say but it's occasionally written down well it's like after the midterms nobody ever apart from when an election result is quite catastrophic for one party nobody ever says drubbing but there's been a drubbing a drubbing overnight yeah it just It doesn't happen.

13:13Do you want to advertise your evening with Delia Smith? Yes, that's right. Yes, thank you for that very much indeed because I had completely forgotten having said I was going to do it. So yes, Delia Smith has got an event next, if you happen to be in London, next Thursday, November the 12th at a really beautiful location, a central location in Marylebone, St Mary's Church, Bryanston Square, W1. Starts at half past six. It's a Times event so you can get tickets on thetimes.com and I'm just going to be talking to her and then we'll take questions. She's written this interesting new book, Us, all about her sort of personal political philosophy.

13:49But also she's just, well, she is national treasure status, Delia Smith. She has a hinterland because she's interested in all sorts of things. The cookery is one aspect of her life. She's got football. She's got her political and philosophical opinions and experiences and she's just a very interesting woman. so I think people would enjoy spending an evening in her company. Very much so. Yes. Did she get asked to do Bake Off? Oh, I don't know. That's a good question. I'll add that to the list. I was watching Nigella last night and, I mean, apart from anything else, so Nigella's just one of those people, when she's on the screen, you can only look at Nigella.

14:31I haven't seen her doing it, not because I don't dislike her at all. I think she's great, but I'm not really drawn to Bake Off at all. Are you not? No. I think I'm just watching it for Nigella and Paul now, not the bakes at all. But it's incredible because you've got four very charismatic hosts now. You've got Alison Hammond, Noel, I'm just transfixed by the skinny jeans, and you've got Paul Hollywood and Nigella. But you still look at Nigella. And she just, her language, the spectrum of her language, I just never tire of. You don't quite know what's going to come out, but it's always very specific.

15:08She elevates the language. She does. She's got a good vocab. Unfortunately, there was football on last night, so I'm always going to... Fair enough. No, I know. Fair enough, and actually, it was a slightly disappointing episode. It was free from... It was a free from week. God, they started doing that. Look at the expression on young Eve's face. Well, she's drawn to it. I need to watch it tonight, but I didn't know what week it was. What's it free from? Well, it's free from... From. Taste. Yeah. And definitely, as they found out, in the pastry round, free from lamination. It's very difficult to laminate, isn't it, with a plant-based product?

15:41Right, wise counsel, family home to stay or move on comes in from Chloe. We're just going to pop this out there and I'm sure that the hive does indeed have some thoughts. I'm getting in touch now to request your wise counsel, that of your listeners, on the topic of family homes and the dilemma of when to stay versus move. This came to mind following Jane's reflections on no longer having a base in her home city once her parents' home is sold. Our son has recently gone to university. Our daughter hopes to follow in the next two years. My husband and I, soon to turn 50, initially chose to stay in the area during the school years to give a stable base for our kids, despite never having really felt at home in the place that we live.

16:22We would love to move pretty swiftish after our daughter goes to uni, but she is outraged at the prospect, and we know this home means a lot to both our kids, especially in the absence of any other remaining family home. I still miss my grand's house and my childhood home, so I understand how my kids feel. I also recall various friends' despair when their parents moved whilst they were away at university. But equally, as we start to plan our next chapter, I don't want to stay just to preserve memories. Can anyone share words of wisdom or perspectives that help to flesh out the choices ahead? Oh, that's interesting.

17:00It's a very interesting one. Chloe, I'm quite intrigued by the fact that she says they've never really felt a home in the area, city where they live. So it sounds to me like they, well, they genuinely don't feel any particular affection for it. But of course, their children do. So what should you prioritise at that point in your life? I think that's a very hard one. I think it's very difficult. And there is no doubt about it. Although, actually, I speak from the perspective of somebody who's 23 years old, is still very much living at home. And look, she's very welcome to stay. I was going to say that children come back less and less and stay for shorter and shorter periods.

17:35It's not true anymore. It doesn't seem to be true anymore, no. Which has both pluses and minuses, I would say. But should you... What is your duty as a parent? Is it to yourself? So you can establish an independent life of your own that isn't revolving around your children, who inevitably will move away, could go to the other side of the world. They need to be free to establish themselves, don't they? Should you always feel the responsibility to have a base for them that they will like? But won't they grow to like your new base? So I think two things could definitely happen here, couldn't they?

18:11I mean, you could move to somewhere that actually your children turn out to like more than the place that they grew up in. And I think that that can happen. You're taking quite a chance. I think your happiness is worth considering. I speak as somebody whose parents did move in that year when I left home. I would just say it's a little... Yeah, that's tough. To feel a little spicy. Well, more than a little spicy. A little bit spicy. But then it does allow you as the young person to genuinely put down roots or try and find your affinity for yourself, not through your childhood prism. so I mean you kind of don't have an option if that's what happens to you because you just have to find somewhere yourself so I yeah I think other people's experiences will be really really interesting they will hear and especially if you're that person whose parents did sell up and go somewhere else and you found you know that you made a great choice or when you went to see them you thought no this is better than where we lived before we would love to hear that but do tell your children where you're moving to?

19:23I don't think Chloe's intending to just disappear. No. I don't think that's what she's going to do. No, she's not. It's not entry witness protection. Just thinking of maybe moving out of Lincoln. I don't know where you live, Chloe, but... Just pick that around. I do know that as children, and of course, I'm actually aware with both my parents now gone, I'm no longer anybody's child. You aren't. And so I won't have the option, the opportunity, to behave like a prat. Because there is absolutely no doubt... Eve, bear witness to this, please. Bear witness to this. But you know that sometimes when you'd spend time with your parents, even when I was in my 50s, I would still behave like a child.

20:02Oh, Jane. It's outrageous, isn't it, really? I think it's one of the hardest things is to change that gear. Yeah, it really is. And some people manage it better than others. Some parents are better at letting their children become adults and changing the nature of their relationship. than others but you know what you you have had an experience that's just so far removed from mine because your parents did stay in the place that you grew up in provided a welcoming base stayed with each other you've always had liverpool as a place to never had a crossword and if you believe that you'll believe anything but you've had a very very different experience which i i fully appreciate is is not that usual these days and for which i am grateful yeah but i wonder whether or not it's dulled your ability to find your true affinity the place where you woke up and went okay this is this is my home it's got nothing to do with Crosby it's got nothing to do with where I grew up I'm really um I think it's possible to be incredibly fond of two places I am fond of Liverpool and actually fonder of it now because actually of the of the quality of care that my mum and dad had from the people of the place.

21:15Genuinely, that has really changed something for me. But also, I love London. I mean, I'm not one of those people who pretends that I think London's a hellhole and I'm just here because I have to be. I think it's a fantastic place. Yeah, so you found your place. And I love being in the mix of London and I would never want to live anywhere else now, I don't think. Yeah. Well, I mean, you could try East London. It is much better. I've just fallen off my chair. Literally, she fell off her chair. It's not that different.

22:11and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Russell! Russell! Russell Brand is currently standing trial on charges of rape and other sexual offenses. He has pleaded not guilty to them. Reporters from The Times and The Sunday Times will be in the courtroom every single day to watch what happens. Then they'll join me, Luke Jones, in the podcast studio to unpack everything they have heard. Search for The Trial of Russell Brand wherever you get your podcasts.

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23:33Can we do a couple of conversations about death? That is the title of an email that remain and anonymous because we've been saving these up haven't we um you would be the first to admit that the experience that you've had of your parents departing this earth over the last year has been i don't want to put words into your mouth but it's it's almost as good as as an experience could be i have been much blessed yeah so good care and good pain relief and Mum in particular, great pain relief. Dad, it was a more challenging... I mean, neck cancer, which is what he had. It's not... It's hard. It's really hard.

24:13And look, his courage was exceptional, I would say, in his last couple of months. So I absolutely own that. But yes, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it can be. And I think for some people listening, of course, there will be an element of, I wish that that could have been my experience too. So we just want to really, really acknowledge that other people have had a very different experience. And of course, you can remain anonymous when you send us emails. I would like to say that if somebody lives a long life and has a peaceful death with loved ones present, they are incredibly lucky. A lot of people don't get that.

24:52My husband died a few years ago from cancer at the age of 50, leaving me and my 12-year-old son. He didn't want to leave us. His death was not peaceful. Sadly, I wasn't there when he died as I was with my son. We're approaching the first anniversary of the death of my sister at the age of 52, also too young, and I wasn't able to be with her at her death because she lived abroad. But I understand from my brother-in-law that her death was peaceful and that is a blessing. I agree it's important to demystify death, but when talking about it, we do need to be aware that death happens to people at different ages and in different ways.

25:29We also need to be sensitive to the fact that conversations about death are triggering to people whose loved one was too young or did not have a peaceful death. Sadly, with the challenges of funding the health service and end of life care at the moment, too many people are in that situation and it can be an incredibly stressful time for families. I would just like to say to our correspondent my heart goes out to you I think that is a terrible set of circumstances you've lost your sister you've lost your husband the father of your son at such a precious age for him and obviously far far too soon so sending lots of love I mean that's a lot of love yes I mean a huge amount because that's extraordinarily tough Yeah.

26:18And I would actually just like to reference our colleague Hannah again, because she talked so brilliantly on this podcast about the trauma of losing a parent when you're very young yourself, really a child, actually, still a child. and we did say that we would a bit further down the line actually try and do a grief special because very weirdly as it turns out we have all lost a parent at very different times in our lives Hannah incredibly young mine kind of I don't know midway through life I mean before I had my kids and you you know at a more advanced stage slightly slightly more advanced stage I'll take it but i think it's so worth hearing those other perspectives because of course for people listening there'll be a lot of people going oh gosh jane you've been very lucky and i have yeah but you acknowledge it yeah absolutely and also we've had emails as well saying look i tried to be there for my dying parent but i i didn't make it i was stuck on the motorway or my employer wouldn't let me all my employer i mean i am i have to say this is one of and sometimes that employer is the state or the NHS and you just have an absolutely ghastly manager or head of HR who doesn't in any way treat you in the right manner.

27:37I appreciate it's difficult. I understand as well that you don't know when someone's going to die. So if somebody rings up and says, I think I'm about to lose a relative who's very dear to me, I'll have to stay away for the time being. What is an employer supposed to do i'm a bit confused actually as to what the rules are well they appear to be very different they do seem incredibly different yeah yeah and this one comes in as well and i just want to read it out to um this is for somebody who describes themselves as an old faithful i wondered whether any of the hive would be willing to share their feelings on the death of parents that they haven't loved so deeply or indeed were estranged from i will be in this position and I assume that I'm going to feel a mixture of relief, guilt, freedom, regret and sadness which I'll have to work through but I wonder if I'll be more upset than I'm expecting.

28:30It's something I find hard to admit to friends but I know that the Hive is a safe space. You say some very lovely things about the podcast. It's absolutely a group experience and I'm sure that there'll be people who understand completely what you're saying and it will be good to have some thoughts on that too if you've had a very difficult relationship with someone who's been very unkind and worse to you uh you know there is no one size fits all grief so what does that feel like we would we would love to hear those because even if your relationship with a parent or somebody else is significantly not in your life was was good um you still find when they when they've died that you revisit so much that you hadn't thought about for the last however many years.

29:18Because everything's very concentrated, isn't it? And you suddenly start to focus on all sorts of events. And of course, you're looking through stuff and you're seeing photographs and all the rest of it. So yeah, I think that's a very, very important part of this conversation. Yeah, so all of those to Jane and Fee at times.radio. I think we ought to just congratulate Kirstie. What's she done? She joined us at Cheltenham with her friend, Anne. Oh, Kirsty. I was both... I just... I felt better after reading this email. I love this email, Kirsty. Do you want to do it? No, you do it. Are you sure?

29:52I'm just going to listen. OK. Hello, Jane and Fee. Your recent comment about the day drinking at the Cheltenham Literary Festival filled me with shame. We were the trio in the Times hospitality area, knocking back a glass of Prosecco and enjoying the excitement of seeing you with your headphones on and even Blue Fear Kiss. Yes. She is now a super fan after my recommendation. Well, the heat in there, the alcohol, following a large portion of rhubarb crumble, and being a woman of a certain age, led to an unfortunate incident in the portaloos, followed by medical assistants, including a wheelchair, which went unused, a spell in the medical tent with an ice pack, and a portable collapsible sick bowl.

30:33Yes, this is in Cheltenham, everybody. This is great. Which Kirsty has kept as a souvenir. Oh, pull that one out. When Kirsty goes to meet her maker, somebody will find that and think, what the hell's this? Oh, dear. I hope it stayed empty, Kirsty. Needless to say, I recovered in time to see you with Annika and thoroughly enjoyed every minute. Oh, God. As Kirsty says, what about's back? Please, can you give a shout out to Anne, a complete legend. Years ago, I would have been mortified, the blessing of age. Briefly, on another note, I'm an HR consultant. and I've worked in HR for over 35 years.

31:09And Kirsty goes on to make exactly this point, Jane. I'm often shocked by employers' lack of sensitivity and flexibility when it comes to caring for the elderly in their final days and the provision of bereavement leave. How this is handled can have a huge impact on individuals, good and bad. I want to offer my condolences to Jane and say that, of course, work should never have to come first. These are not everyday events by the nature of them. Now, Kirsty, you've also sent a lovely, lovely picture there With us in the background, you've got, I think, your friend Anne there in the background. I mean, you look angelic in that picture.

31:42But I'm afraid to say that now I'm just always going to see, if we ever meet in person, the vision of you in a port-a-loo, having a little bit of a chunder. And then having to be escorted to the medical tent for a lie-down with an ice pack. I didn't realise there weren't medical staff. But imagine you were in the medical tent. Probably nothing's happened all day. I was just thinking. Is it like the emergency tent at Boomtown? I very much doubt it. Oh, God. Right. Kirsty's in a K-hole. She was in the Times tent. It's not quite the same thing, is it? A Times K-hole. Well, some of our friskier younger listeners will know what we're talking about.

32:31That really made us laugh. It really made us laugh. and thank you for sharing it because you really didn't have to. I love her sense of humor about it all. I really do. Did she want to remain anonymous? I don't know. She is an HR consultant. She doesn't say. And Anne, hello. Hello to you both. You sound like lovely friends and may you continue to support each other through life's many ups and downs. And obviously the K is for kimchi. Yes, thank you. I hope you get round to that. Crumble's having a revival, There was a crumble stall at Cheltenham. It is a big thing. And I know the crumble stall that you mean.

33:09It's got branches of actual shops down at Borough Market. They've got crumble. Who'd have thought that? Because it's quite a simple pudding, isn't it? Even I can make a crumble. I don't like it. You don't? No, I do quite like it. I like it with cream. I don't like custard or crème anglaise, as we refer to it in East West Kensington.

33:32Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of the best one yet behind every episode. There's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google doc, the headline hammer with Google workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools. We already use like Gmail docs and sheets, no new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

34:09Let's bring in our guest today, Jo Brand. Jo's book is called Decline and Falling Over. You will know her TV work. Her CV includes Taskmaster, Have I Got News for You, Getting On, which is my favorite, and Bake Off Extra Slice, which you're not doing anymore to my regret. No. Well, that's because sort of extra slice isn't happening at all. They've got something new called second helpings. They've modified it ever so slightly there. Yes, they have. OK. Now, your latest book, It's Many Things, I need to say very clearly, it's not a guide to living a longer, healthier life or anything like that, is it?

34:45It's not. But it is funny. Oh, I hope so. Yeah, it is. Why would I want to write that sort of book? I just think I'm not, I don't know anything. I can't be bothered to do the research. I'm not sensible enough. I always want to make a joke. You know, it would be terrible to write a book like that. It's so lovely to interview somebody who just says, I can't be bothered doing the research. It's fantastic. I interview so many erudite, informed people who've spent years labouring on their very important books, Jo. We are not those people. No, don't include me in that. No, you're not. Are you? Well, of course I'm not.

35:21Of course you're not. No, no. Now, I think you're 68 now, is that correct? Nine. 69. Does this stage of life suit you? Well, I think you just have to not think about it and think, am I all right at the moment? Yes, I'm fine. And I am, you know. It's really just what will happen down the line, but no one knows that, so I won't bother to worry about that until it happens. And were you good at being young? Because not everybody is. I don't think I was that good at being young. I'm much better now. That's interesting. Yes, I was very good at it. A bit too good at it for my parents' liking, if I'm honest.

35:58Yes. Well, you do hint in this book at, shall we say, a little bit of agitation in the homestead. A little bit, yes. But I think I was way more out of control than a lot of girls my age probably were. So this is back in the 70s, I guess. Yeah, yeah. And you left home, I think, at 17, didn't you? With the invitation of my parents, yeah. Well, you were warmly encouraged to. Get out. Yeah, warmly. Because they lit a fire in my bedroom. Actually, my dad did burn all my clothes. So that's not that far from the truth. Gosh, what made him do that? Because I was, at the time, I was kind of a hippie. So I didn't wear any shoes.

36:40And I had those Laura Ashley skirts that dragged on the ground and looked horrendous. and, you know, that sort of loons T-shirt with no bra. My dad was just ashamed of me that I didn't look like an air hostess. Were they both quite traditional, your parents? My dad much more than my mum. My mum went along with my dad for quite a bit because he wasn't very nice if you didn't go along with him. I don't mean that in a really scary way, but just in a, you know, conventional way, really. Yes, and I think it's interesting you use the word conventional. You do more than hint in the book that he could be aggressive.

37:20Yes, yeah, he could. I mean, he was verbally aggressive quite a lot, quite shouty. Physically aggressive, yes, but not, you know, not on a regular basis. Nevertheless, if it only happens once, you live in slight fear of it, don't you? You do, yeah. And I think the worst thing was he had quite a temper. So if he lost his temper, basically batten down the hatches, you know, which is quite hard to do when you're 15. Yeah, and especially if you don't have a hatch. Exactly, or a batten. Where do I get one from? I know. So you left home at 17 barefoot and you went where? I went and lived in a bedsit in Hastings, looking out over Hastings Pier and the sea, which was absolutely wonderful.

38:08Was it? It was. It was almost a bit like a sort of play because I moved in there. On the top floor, there were five Korean chefs sharing a room who would cook for us all fairly regularly. Next floor down, a Rastafarian guy who was a singer. I was the next floor down. The basement was a woman in her late 60s who was the landlady who sold cannabis. And then her daughter was on the next floor up and she had a baby of indeterminate parenting. At your age. Oh, I see. I think you were going to say you didn't know what age it was. No, no. No one knew who the father was. Oh, I see. I think she probably did.

38:56She probably did. Well, we're not passing any judgment. No, indeed. I just thought it was like, wow, this is great here. Yeah. And your parents, did they know where you were living or how you were living? Yeah, they did, because I remember my dad dropping me off there and it just being such an awful experience, because he obviously went in and thought, oh, no, what have we done? But, you know, I didn't want to go back home. The die was cast. It was indeed. Yeah. Well, in this book, you do talk about your youth and your youthful experiences, but it is largely about getting older and how we deal with it.

39:31And I think you would acknowledge, you say in the book, that you're at the stage where falling over is now a fall. Having a fall. Yeah, it's a fall. I've had a fall. I haven't fallen over, I've had a fall. And I must admit, I notice it in myself. As I'm coming down the stairs now, I'm very much, I'm affiliated with the banister. Do you know what I mean? I don't just make a dart for it. Yeah, absolutely, I do. I'm also aware of like not wearing a particular pair of sandals that I've got that have, well, tripped me up in the past, shall we say, you know. And that's kind of ridiculous because I wouldn't even have thought twice about it five, ten years ago.

40:14But, yeah, you just have to I think you just have to be a bit more wary, really, because I think obviously like I am kind of fairly well padded. So if I had a fall, and I have had, it's not too bad. Well, didn't you fall over once outside A &E? Yes, and then the other time was outside my GP. So it was very handy. If you are going to have a fall, make sure you look around you. Exactly. And just assess the circumstances. Right. I mean, you talk about euthanising in this book. And there is this, I mean, the obsession these days with looking younger than you actually are. I mean, from my perspective, I've interviewed any number of very famous actresses, radiantly beautiful, but you can always tell who's had work and who hasn't.

41:07So why do people bother? I honestly don't know, because I think there are a lot of myths floating around that, for example, if your relationship's not going very well, If you make yourself look a bit more beautiful, then it will all be sorted out. But I think there's just such a fundamental issue that's wrong with that, because I don't agree that it will. It doesn't make any difference if you have two wrinkles removed from your forehead and you look two years younger. So I think that's a problem. But I think we are kind of in hock to, not in hock, I don't know what's the right word. Enthrall. Enthrall, Jane, honestly, you're so much more articulate than me.

41:54I do admire you. No, it's true, though. Enthrall to youth. We always have been to some extent, but to looking youthful. And I think because, you know, treatments of that are so much more sophisticated than they used to be, it's much more available not to mention things like Ozempic, should I say that No you can say Ozempic, Monjaro Yes all those I mean I do know people who have been very much helped by taking that medication those medications Absolutely me too, yeah It must be all over showbiz in your world people must be on it Not in comedy I think Not quite the same and I also really admire someone like Catherine Ryan who gave a really interesting interview to The Times a couple of weeks ago, just saying, yes, I've had a facelift, I don't care.

42:46And I think she had that very winning line, if people want to say what they like about me, let them do it. I think her line was, I'm a millionaire with healthy children. Absolutely. Yeah, I really like Catherine and good on her. And I think the whole thing there is women should just be able to say what they want without, well, obviously without anyone judging them. But I don't mean that in the sense that they could say some appalling things. But I kind of feel with Catherine, good honour. If that's what she wants to do, that's what she wants to do. Why not? Well, let her be. And we certainly have.

43:20You talk about Brian Johnson. I love hearing about him. He's this anti-aging guru. He's 48. But according to your book, and you'll have to try and back this up, he's 48, but his rectum is only 18. That's right. Well, how do you know that? Because that's what it says in his book. He says it. Yes, but I think they've said, I don't know, what is a rectum measurer like and an age rectum? Apparently, you can tell by the way that it functions and I think the muscle power and all that sort of thing. But yes, I don't suspect that his rectum is secretly 75. Because why would you bother to lie about what age your rectum is, Jane?

44:10Why indeed. But Brian's regime is quite a punishing one. I mean, I think he again was featured in the Times magazine not that long ago. Your book says he takes 54 tablets in the morning and 34 later in the day. I mean, what's that box called that you have for your medication? Dosset box. How big is his? See, I'm an old person. I know these things. You did know that. So he must have a dosset trunk. I know. And also it seems counterintuitive that someone who's trying to be healthy and live longer is slinging so many tablets down their throat. Why isn't it really weird? What, where is the joy, Brian?

44:51But he does have a younger girlfriend, doesn't he? Yes. But the thing I most remember about him is that he has a son called Talmadge. Yes. I don't know if this is too horrible to say, but anyway. Go on. Well, he milks him. Yes, that's... OK, stop it. Yes, that was such a weird... Yeah, sorry, Jane. Let's talk instead about robot carers, because this is another factor in the book. And I think we're the same generation, and the plain fact, Jo, is that robot carers will be a reality in our lifetime if we're spared. And would you be OK with one? Yes. Why? um because i i think they can only be less irritating than humans quite that's not a nice thing to say is it but i i don't particularly want humans around me so i can have conversations with them if i ever end up somewhere which i won't so it's not even an issue really what do you mean why are you so certain you won't end up where in a home why won't you in an old people's home because I've instructed my family.

46:04Oh, have you? Yeah. This is interesting. I hope you don't mind me asking, but what have you told them? Well, I haven't told them exactly what to do. I haven't said at midnight on the 14th of March, I'd like you to take me to the top of a cliff and then play a bit of, I don't know, whatever, and then just push me off. No, I've just said, I really don't want to end up in an old people's home or a residential home. So for that reason, could you find some way round that? And that's up to you. And you've left it just like that. Yes. I mean, I've just, I should say my dad died recently in a care home.

46:44And I've got to be honest, I was like most people, a little squeamish about the idea of him being in a care home, of visiting a care home. Let's just be honest, most people feel the same way. My dad was very poorly when he went there. But I honestly felt, Joe, that there were a lot of people in that place who were having a not bad life at all. There was companionship. They were warm. There were three meals a day. There was entertainment. There were things to do. Which consisted of what? Quizzes. I'd love that. Yeah, singing. One afternoon, there was Diana Ross impersonator, who I have to say people talk about entertainers, that woman, the effort she put in to her performance was incredible.

47:30Did she do Touch Me in the Morning? No, she did actually end with I Will Survive, which I thought was the Gloria Gaynor. Yeah, exactly. I know. I did think that was a bomb. So I don't want to be too down on care homes. And also I would say the staff, although I suppose you could always point to understaffing in establishments like that, they were lovely and they were properly committed. Yeah, you see, I think the problem with care homes and people say they're much for muchness, but they're not. No, they're not. And that's the issue for me. I know some of them are wonderful and, you know, the people that work there are wonderful and I'm sure a lot of people in the ones that aren't so wonderful are understaffed or whatever it is.

48:13And that was the issue for me because my dad was somewhere as well. And, yeah, it was, I mean, he went from one extreme to the other. He got moved after coming out of hospital to a very posh one where they had this huge poodle running around everywhere, annoying everywhere. A comfort poodle? No, I just think it belonged to the woman who owned the home, so she just let it run riot. And they served sherry at three o 'clock in the afternoon, which I think is kind of a bit weird as well. But my dad likes a sherry and had far too much and kind of like passed out. So, well, why not? You'd want to feel like he's had a good session, I suppose.

48:58But the other place that he went to was very, very different. And I just think it just made him sort of lose a bit of hope in life, really. Right. And he just sort of stopped doing stuff he liked. And I found that really difficult to deal with. And on that basis, you just thought, I just don't want that for myself. That's right. Yeah. You know, I mean, yeah, I just don't really. And I'm not going to sort of talk about it, but I'm not squeamish about what I think will be available, you know, So hopefully by the time it comes to me having to make that decision. But the other thing to say is you don't know what's going to happen.

49:43No. So, you know, just have to take it. Yeah, in a way, making plans for anything is sort of a bit, a little pointless. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, but you've worked in the NHS, haven't you? And I think Getting On was one of those programmes that, I mean, properly got the sort of, how can I describe it? In some cases, the genuine desperation of particularly looking after elderly people and the treatment of elderly people within our system. Yeah, absolutely. It was bleak, but it was also extremely funny. Yeah. And I thank you. It was just. I think it's hard to write something like that where you manage to get the right balance of because if you go a bit too bleak, it's just bleak, you know, and you don't want to go the other way where it just looks like you're taking the mick out of older people.

50:41And really we were kind of delighted with it, you know. It just fell right. Can I still see getting on? Because I've tried to find it and I don't think it's available on... Well, I mean, I'm still in touch with a lot of people that were involved in the making of it, so I'll ask the producer, a lovely guy called Jeff Atkinson, he'll have us something squirrelled away somewhere. Right. Well, I very much appreciate that, Jo. What makes you laugh? Who makes you laugh? Well, lots of different things, really. You know, comics-wise, I used to love John Hegley, still do. And I like, I mean, in terms of contemporary comedians, I kind of like people that are a bit like me on stage, which is a very vain thing to say.

51:29But I like Romesh because he's very bad tempered on stage. And I think that's kind of quite a nice way for a comedian to be, really. Does he get away with it more easily than you did? I mean, I remember seeing you live in Cheltenham. It must have been some point in the 90s. Were they a bit? It was Cheltenham, Jo. Yes, Jane. Well, you know. Yes, there were a few crossed arms and people weren't entirely sure about you. I think you were wearing boffer boots or something. Oh, yes, I've probably got the same ones off. Yes, that's right. Well, Cheltenham's not my natural home. But I think the nice thing about starting to get a bit of a profile is that it weeds out the people that will just come along and see you not knowing what to expect in a way.

52:18So it's quite nice to do gigs now because you know that everyone that's bought a ticket hopefully likes you unless they've dragged along their dad as a special birthday treat or something. So you're writing, you've written Declined and Falling Over, which is out now. Is there any chance of you touring? Are you doing anything else? Well, I've just done like a 10-day tour with my mate Andy Robinson who we've toured together for years and I'm really, really fond of him. We had a great time and we really enjoyed it. So I think we may expand it a bit, yeah. but I don't really like going far away from home in a sad old lady kind of way.

52:58So I'm thinking of maybe doing something in London where you just do it for ages. Do a residency. Yes, exactly. Yeah, that'd be lovely. Yes, go for it. At the Savoy or somewhere so I can play the piano and sing too. Yes, and cocktails could be imbibed. Indeed. It sounds lovely, Jo. Thank you very much for coming in. Decline and Falling Over is out now, the perfect gift for this happy time of year. What? Yes, we'll get there already. So why not just do it? Jo Brand, always a pleasure. And her book is called Decline and Falling Over. Do you get it? It's a very clever title. It's very good, isn't it?

53:32Yeah. We've been a bit cleverer with our title. Oh, I think actually the title was the best thing about our book. Yeah. The cover was good. Right. I wouldn't put that one down. We're never going to stop talking about our book. Oh, we made money out of it even if nobody else did. Right. Okay. Let's reconvene tomorrow. Why not? Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Oh, look forward to hearing from you. Goodbye.

54:12Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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56:21They build their teams with people who care. So for cover that cares, choose AXA Health. You can get a quote by searching AXA Health Insurance online. Pre-existing conditions are not covered. The mental health support line isn't a replacement for medical advice and is not an emergency service. Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of the best one yet behind every episode. There's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google doc, the headline hammer with Google workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools. We already use like Gmail docs and sheets, no new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

57:02That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.