There's a bosom, Eve. (with Maye Musk)

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2:15I think it should be prescribed listening, actually, for men of a certain age, just so you know what's coming around the corner. Can I ask you a personal question, please, Eve? You may. Why are you wearing heels today? Eve doesn't wear heels. Have you noticed this? Yes, I did notice you were looming over me at this coffee bar. What's all that about? We've been speaking about my new boots. Oh, yes. So there's two sides to this. The first is that... Two sides, I bet you can't wait. I'm on a mission to elevate my work wardrobe. So I've purchased some... They're quite a small heeled boot. thought they were quite autumnal with different patches of brown leather the other side to that is that they were delivered to my boyfriend's house i had to collect them they don't fit in my bag so i've had to wear them a bit sooner than i was actually ready to i haven't the ryanair approach to footwear don't obey for it just wear it i haven't quite got my head around them yet but i don't have any choice i have to wear them okay that's great that's great they've been ever Well, I think they look fantastic.

3:21Thank you. It's an interesting one, actually, the work wardrobe. Shall we spend a little time on this? Because today, you're on a half day today. I'm on a half day today. So I'm going Westfield after this. So I don't really feel... We've got this new working pattern where you have Wednesday afternoon off and I have Thursday afternoon off. By the way, which is lovely, it works nicely, doesn't it? It's very nice. The first Thursday afternoon I had off, I just thought I was like a schoolgirl playing truant. I didn't really know what to do with myself. It felt all wrong, but I'm adapting. I've got myself a schedule today.

3:55Yeah, so it took two weeks. It did take two weeks. We have adapted. So work wardrobes here are, well, the media generally, it's sort of a bit sloppy, isn't it? Well, it used to be sloppy, Jane, but because we are no longer a non-visual medium... Oh, you had to be slightly less sloppy. then very much so we do have to i think change our wardrobe one of the i think one of the the things that you don't really ever think about and it's never talked about in careers advice or when endless adults are telling you as a younger person what it is that you should do with your life two massive things what you want to go to work in in terms of uniform and clothes and what time you want to go to work, how you want to travel to work, they're never talked about and they become two such massive things in your working life.

4:49I would not have been able to go to work in an office during the rush hour wearing a suit for the rest of my life. When I tried it out as a young 20-something, it wasn't me. That kind of formality and being part of that bustle, I just couldn't do it. and I genuinely loved getting up at 3.30 in the morning, not having to think about what to wear and going through a dark, empty city to my job that was my happiest kind of 20-something working life. And they're big factors. They are quite big factors. I think you're perhaps, well, I did that too, except when I was getting up, I didn't get up at half three, I got up at 20 to four when I was 10.

5:35It makes such a chance. I've been so lazy. that's that's the difference between us and i 10 minutes i then had to i mean it's laughable really i had to drive my fiat panda through the i mean the empty streets of london no worcestershire okay right so this is before i even got to london oh no when i got to london i was doing breakfast a breakfast show at the bbc i was chauffeur driven to work i was completely different set of experiences i wish my careers teacher had asked me would you like to be chauffeur driven to work because I would have said, yeah, definitely. It doesn't come up though. But how you travel to work, what the work is and what you wear are never considered at all.

6:16And what hours you think you're at your best. Yeah. I do think the hours at your best is really important. Actually, also clothing. I mean, I'm just trying to think. So my dad would always go off to the office in a suit. And my mum always looked smart at work as well. And they had clerical jobs, but they weren't city big hitters or anything like that. I think people were routinely smarter in the 70s and 80s and 90s. But equally, some people really thrive in uniform. I just wouldn't have been able to wear a uniform. It's not what I've got to wear. To work every day. Although strangely, I long for it now.

6:52Yes. What's that about? You'd like a uniform. I'd love to have a uniform. Yeah. Well, effectively, a lot of men do have a work uniform, don't they? I mean, I think no man looks bad in a good suit. A good suit. important emphasis you're right but if you're fortunate enough to be able to afford a good suit I think that must be so effortless for most men nice crisp shirt oh lovely and just all of that slightly maverick tie that's where your all of that structure yes the structure show your personality and your tie because we are now visualised every day we've got this new studio you can watch us on YouTube so whatever some people like it some people don't it does like a lot of people wanted to listen to the radio and they were quite happy with that they were But I now have bought myself four different white shirts and that's all I'm going to wear.

7:41Okay, you're just going, okay, that's a good idea. Well, that's a uniform. So I have chosen a uniform. I love a white shirt, but they just don't stay that white for long. No, but then there's something, because I do like the laundry. Glow white. Yeah, there's something really satisfying about keeping your whites white. But anyway, thoughts about that would be really, really terrific. And I'd love to hear from somebody who's been in a uniform for 40 years. What's that like? you know do you just does it help you kind of become a different person is it restrictive i wonder whether we've got any police officers listening because i do think their uniform's extraordinary now they're in a stab proof vest in london they're carrying so much kit they've got all of their cams on them too what does that feel like you're you're kind of you're you are the equipment aren't you in that uniform especially with the camera yes you're a sort of walking emergency centre in some ways and yeah it must be i mean you have to be bloody fit to walk around anywhere in that oh and in the heat this summer yes do do let us know about this uniforms at work um my only experience of uniform is school uniform and i you know i do remember the last day i had to wear it because we had to i mean that's when i was 18 and still wearing a tie wow so in sixth form you still have to wear uniform yeah gosh uh and do people rebel against that no no good idea it It was the 1980s.

9:02Merchant Taylor's girl school. No rebellion allowed. Well, no, there wasn't really. I certainly wasn't the rebel. But no, it's weird, isn't it, that we didn't question the tie, which is preposterous, really. Why girls were made to wear school tie? I know it's because we were aping men when formal girls' education came in. But it is a bit odd, isn't it? For seven years of my life, I wore a tie. Yeah, very odd. And then never again. Although you could do now, couldn't you, in Annie Lennox style. Could I be a cheeky schoolgirl? No. Exactly. That's repulsive. There's a fantastic article in The Times today, actually, about a group of young women who are campaigning to stop school uniform being sexualised.

9:46Well, good luck with that. And appearing as a category on porn websites. Why is that allowed? Let me think about that. Why is it allowed? I mean, stop it. Surely the government could actually stop that. Or we could just forever change school. I mean, no, actually, it really is. It's so awful. It's revolting when you think about it. Anyway, let us know what you think. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. May Musk is the guest in this edition of the podcast, Yes, Mother Of. Don't need to say any more, really, do we? No, probably not. Rachel is getting in touch to find out if anybody else, she says, has noticed the use of distracting colour schemes in TV thrillers.

10:29She says specifically blue, often teamed up with a reddish-brown and or mustardy colour. I noticed it in a recent series of Shetland where every single shot appeared to have some blue object in it, not just the obligatory knitwear, but also if there was a mug, a box file or a garage door, they'd always be blue and generally quite a bright blue. This is ringing bells with me, particularly about Shetland. Since then, I've noticed it in The Rapture and Ludwig on the BBC and Widows Bay on Apple TV. they all seem to favour a rich teal blue. But the worst offender is the new thriller Last Seen starring the man from Colin from Accounts.

11:05I have attached a screenshot of a scene where even his hair appears to be blue. And there we are. And there is Patrick Bramall. Yeah. And I watched that only last night. I didn't really notice the blue. Now I'm going to really notice the blue. Well, do let us know if you have also noticed a lot of teal on your telly. What's happening? I tell you what I am enjoying, and I didn't think I necessarily would, but Sharon Horgan's new thing, it's called Youth. It's about the sandwich generation and women of a certain age. There's a lot of ticks in boxes when I watch it, because, yeah, it's good. It's very, very good.

11:43It's a bit rude, so you just have to put up with that. Well, Sharon Horgan does do... She's known for her broad humour. A bit rude, doesn't she? I think she was in the building yesterday, and... Oh, was she? Her hair is just a, it's the eighth wonder of the world. It's glorious. It's still moving, Jane. Her hair is still hanging and it's still moving. And I'm very envious of women whose hair still moves. It still swings about. Yeah. As a Liverpudlian, I do struggle with the phrase her hair. Her hair. Exactly. Her hair. Woo-hoo. It can be a challenge. Yeah. Thank you very much indeed for Man Book recommendations.

12:21These come in for people who've never listened to the podcast before. but might have some kind of affiliation to them. James may be known to Hannah. Well, I mean, we can't be certain, but it's basically her boyfriend. Yeah, so James is recommending. Well, for a start, he says that he really, really loves David Sedaris and I think that's fantastic, actually. I wouldn't have thought that David Sedaris did appeal to the 20-something young man just because so many of his references are for our generation. But obviously the humour translates across the years. And James also recommends Carla by Colin Walsh, a debut novel from the Irish writer.

13:05Well-paced thriller with lots of twists and turns. What really stood out to me was how well-developed all the characters were. You really felt something for each of them. And also he's loved One Flute Over the Cuckoo's Nest, a modern classic. I have never read it. I've seen the film, but have you read that book? Ken McKeezy, I didn't read it. No. I loved the film. The film was, I think, the first time that I'd ever watched something about mental health and institutions and madness in a kind of let's all gather round the TV, this is entertainment. I remember being so, so struck by it. Because it was still something that you didn't talk to.

13:47You might know some people who had mental health difficulties. The way that they were spoken about by our parents' generation was weird. We just talk about things now. We can actually say what illness people suffer from, but I don't remember them ever being mentioned, those illnesses. Well, people just had bad problems with their nerves. I'd seen lots of people, my mother knew, who had problems with their nerves. I do think there are still some, for example, schizophrenia, is not really something that people talk about. They should, but they don't really talk about it. We do hear a lot about anxiety and depression, and I'm not for one minute dismissing either of those two things.

14:28But we've come such a long way. We have come a very long way. Although it's interesting, I think there's been feminist reinterpretations of One Flew Over the Cookies Nest, because the nurse Ratched was, shall we say, a troubling figure. There are feminist reinterpretations of pretty much everything from the 1980s, Jane. I remember being horrified by a Freudian interpretation of Alice in Wonderland. Oh, Lord. I know, which I remember we did this at university and I didn't like Alice in Wonderland anyway. But then when you put it to a Freudian test, oh my goodness, what the hell was going on there?

15:04I think there were some question marks about Lewis Carroll. Okay, right. Yeah, he's dead. The biggest films of the 80s just are so difficult to watch now. I mean, you know, Grease, Rocky, Saturday Night Fever, Flashdance, Welder by Day, Dancer by Night. Well, we've all been there. You know, they're a difficult watch now, but we loved them. They shaped us. That was what we watched. Yes. Midnight Express is a film. Oh, my goodness. I wonder whether I've watched that four or five times. One of the very few films I have revisited, that and Doctor Zhivago are the ones I've seen a lot of. um i don't know whether would i would when was the last time i saw i haven't seen midnight express for a decade or so but that's probably do you remember that music oh very much so and yeah midnight express was the most salutary tale of never to entertain the thought of being a drug mule it certainly was and i'll tell you what it put me off yeah that was it actually whenever now whenever there's a scene in a crime drama where a relative goes to prison to visit the inmate and they have to sit with a glass thing in between them i always think of midnight express yeah i know i do too and if you've seen the film then you know exactly what i mean and sometimes it's so inappropriate to have that thought yes because it's not nothing to do no i know but yes it certainly there's a bosom eve there's a bosom that emerges let's just say midnight express Yes, left an impression.

16:38Right, sorry, so dirty laugh. The Song of Achilles. What on earth will Barbara think of that? Oh, Babs. Lady Babs is on such fine form at the moment. The Song of Achilles by Madeleine Miller is the last one. Oh, we're back with it. Suggested by James. And we don't want to leave out Eve's boyfriend, another 26-year-old. He's got very good taste too, hasn't he? So one of his recommendations... Not in women.

17:07right yeah got back at you there i refer you to an early podcast in the week about what men are doing while women ditch on other women uh the hearts invisible furies by john boyne now that's one of my favorite books too what superb choice he has it's very funny is it yes i i think um i think you'd enjoy it uh wager by david gran a non-fiction book based on the english expedition around the Argentinian Peninsula to attack Spanish colonies in South America. That sounds a little bit ballsy to me. And James Percival Everett's story of a runaway slave in the US when some states have abolished slavery, a sickening story of how humans used to treat each other relatively recently, narrated from the runaway slave's point of view.

17:54Well, I think that your boyfriend has shown himself to be a man of extraordinary taste. I was sort of thinking, listening to James' recommendations as well, that I wonder if a common thread in young men's literature is often history. Yeah. Boys tend to be quite interested in history and specific periods. So maybe we do end up landing on some historical fiction. Yeah, well, what was that thing about men think about ancient Rome? Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. How long did you think about the Roman Empire? Well, apparently, something ridiculous like every 20 minutes. Is that happening? potentially do you go home and find him in a toga it's just lost in thought i i genuinely think and there'll be people of far more scholarly persuasion than me so i'm bound to get corrected on this but just from what i remember of reading the classics classics the ancient literature and epic poems and plays the depiction of women in them taught me so much more about the female perspective than my A-level history syllabus did, which was about more modern history.

19:01Some of the great, great characters that stick in my mind, you know, like Clytemnestra, are there written 2 ,000 years ago. And then it's like everyone kind of forgot to write about women. And then they came back on board. What was her story? Well, she was the wife of Agamemnon. So she faced that horrendous maternal place of watching and being expected to support her husband in an endeavour that was going to cost their family. So one of the great myths is about Agamemnon being asked to sacrifice one of his daughters in order to be victorious in battle. Yeah. And I suppose if you wanted to if you wanted to ask why that has stayed with us throughout time it is about sacrificing your family for your ambition and what you're asked to do as a warrior may not fit what you want to do at home and certainly you know didn't fit the women but if you think about things like the trojan women which is one of the great greek tragedies i mean it's entirely about the pain and grief of war and i just don't remember reading anything from that point of view when i was doing my A-level history, you know, about the Tudors and the Reformation and stuff.

20:14So it's probably just the syllabus. I'm sure I'll be corrected, but it's just my own personal take on history. Yeah. I mean, we know the history syllabus has changed, hasn't it? I mean, I still, I think it's astonishing that although I was born only, what was it, 19 years. So I was born 64 so i was born 21 years after world war ii ended no 19 years after world war ii ended so that's just extraordinary isn't it but i was never taught anything about it at school nothing not a word not a word so that's just because it was too recent in people's memories to want to call it history what do you think that was i don't know i think it's just the fact that yes it was too recent but it was but but the impact it was how it continued to have obviously an impact on our world because everything that happened in world war ii has determined pretty much everything that's happened since so it is it's really bizarre my own children have been taught at least about some uh aspects i mean the holocaust and the blitz and um you know the the social history of world war ii is now taught in schools isn't it even to primary school children they learn about it but nothing, not a word.

21:29I mean, quite extraordinary. I did know a bit about Swedish foreign policy in the 17th century. Did you? Why? That was on our A-level history syllabus. I just don't know why. Go on, give us a nugget from that. No, I can't remember anything now but troubled times for the Swedes. It was long, way before ABBA. Gosh, what a weird thing to have. I mean, was it a particularly flamboyant part of our history? I think there was, oh God, we've already been criticised this week for our appalling ignorance of crittle windows and i'm just about i'm going to have to ask eve to do a bit of research i think there was a swedish queen called christina who did have quite an impact okay come back to us with that in a minute yeah we'll give you a thumbnail of swedish history bear with us bear with us just because you mentioned auschwitz that is a story oh my god it is worth talking about this jane So you showed it to me yesterday because I think you'd been sent it.

22:25I thought Eve showed it to me. Was it Eve first? Anyway, there's this clip that's been doing the rounds. It went viral. She's in the newspapers today, that woman. Of a woman and her daughter who often post about their travels around the world. And they had been to Auschwitz. And the video that they chose to put up, forgive my old-fashioned language, was of them criticising the prices in the cafe at Auschwitz and saying things like they had a strawberry milkshake, but it was a bit watery. And the lemonade, it tasted a little bit like Dettol. And there was a terribly, I mean, the whole thing is just tone deaf, but there was such an off-key complaint about how long they'd have to wait.

23:09I mean, just, just have a think about where you are. It was astonishing. when we watched it we thought it might you said it must be a joke well i thought it might be some of the bleakest comedy i'd ever seen yeah i didn't but it's absolutely but it's genuine it is genuine is it okay yeah i'm just horrified it just says something about about where we've got to where i'm sure that there have been lots of people in the past who've gone to auschwitz and on the way back they found something to complain about within their circle of friends or whoever they've visited with and all that kind of stuff and you know maybe that's human nature but to think that that's what you send out to the world is just it's astonishing jane i mean really it's so galling isn't it i i i don't know the women involved i in one level i feel sorry for them because i imagine they're getting quite a lot of a pro a pro brim is that the program yeah they've doubled down oh well okay i i find the whole thing just i mean it's galloping ignorance it's just absolutely extraordinary and it's a measure of just how dumb our world can be i think we're getting thicker there's no doubt about it we really do anyway let's should we talk about happier things please please yes yes eve do you want to hear about queen christina yes please there was a queen christina of sweden yes she was a 17th century monarch she was known for her brilliant intellect defiance of traditional gender roles yes conversion to catholicism and abdication of the throne.

24:42She refused all proposals, refused to provide an heir. And then she dipped and went to Rome. She went to Rome. She just went to live in Rome. What was her foreign policy? Oh, well, we'll leave that for another day. But it's good to know that she existed. And the fact that she didn't find happiness with a chap, we'll just have to put that down to the difficult time she lived in. And the fact that she had major responsibilities at home. It's not everything. Well, and it clearly wasn't for her. She had, I mean, little did she know that she was monarch of a country that would give the world IKEA and the Volvo and so much to come.

25:17And Swedish balls. And Swedish meatballs, yeah, though not on her watch. Are you referring to her actively pushing for an end to the 30 years rule? That'll be it. Yes, that's right, yes. I like the sound of Queen Christina. Yes, she should be better known. So in some ways they were right to teach us. It's just a shame I didn't remember. Well, I tell you what, she's having a moment now on this podcast, isn't she? You thought that was going to happen. Literally nobody. Ellie says, I've got some place names from Christchurch, New Zealand. These road names do crack me up. I always cringe when I pass by the incredibly chintzy sounding Happy Home Road.

25:55I mean, you're on a hiding to nothing there, aren't you? If you just have a sort of averagely happy household, that must really stick in the craw every time you go home. You just be livid. and beware the person who has to send the affidavit. Happy home road. She also says, I could never stop myself humming the bolero when I see Torville and Dean Lane. I'm immensely pleased that Torville and Dean have been commemorated in road name form in Christchurch. That's great. Do they have a New Zealand background or connection? I don't think they do, no. I mean, they won Olympic gold medal in Sarajevo, in fact, so that wouldn't be it.

26:32I don't think either of them are from New Zealand I could be just wallowing in our own stupidity because I've got the voice of Karen in my head all of the time at the moment but actually honestly I've got quite a few happy sporting memories I think one of my favourites was them winning that gold medal just at the very end oh I meant to ask you earlier and I know we've meandered all over the place have you watched 70 Up, the TV series? no have you never watched it? So I have watched it occasionally over the years, but no. And do you know, I saw it come up and I thought I need to actually just, I'd like to watch it properly, therefore go back and watch the seven-year intervals.

27:15I was telling my daughter about it this morning and we've agreed, I think we've agreed, it's always a bit difficult to know, that we are going to sit and watch this, because she liked the sound of it when I explained the concept. We're going to watch the final episode. It's such a good concept. And I wonder, has there ever been an audio version of that? We should just explain, this is an incredible, and not without, I mean, it has controversial elements to it. People have criticised the approach of the man who started it all. It's visiting people every seven years in their life and documenting it and filming them.

27:43So it starts at seven and it's ending at 70. And there have been some very, very moving stories amongst that group. Of course, yeah. Do you know what, I think that there have been attempts to do the audio equivalent. and I'm going to say, I think Sue Mitchell has done something along those lines, incredible documentary maker at Radio 4, but we could look into that. I think because it's just such a powerful idea and to be able to carry it out is astonishing and some of those little people that you meet at the age of seven, your heart breaks for how things turned out for them. But equally, there are people who did astonishingly well, not always from the most promising start.

28:27so yeah it's an amazing series i'm going to return to the email inbox for one called back off zane which just made me laugh this morning hello again this is from angela with two l's i wanted to share that you've definitely heard from listeners in bahrain yeah and i'm really sorry yes fortunately kept me company during the 13 years i lived there before moving to australia in 2022 i was interested to hear that zane is a librarian because there's only one library on the island or there was during my time there when I returned to Australia joining my local library was one of the very first things I did I delight in having access to one and always make sure to tell the staff how much I value their work so thank you for that Angela and actually we've been talking about homesickness and particularly when kids head off to university and the library is a lovely place to go if you just need to fill some hours and you've been sitting in your room too long and you're feeling a bit down about the world because it allows you to be quiet you don't have to be with other people you can look at everybody else and i think librarians are possibly some of the nicest people in the world would you agree i think you have to be very patient knowledgeable and uh it's not a shouty role is it the librarian's role it's not so i think i quite i just think yes i think they're all probably lovely people well it's it's a job that must give you a great deal of satisfaction yeah um university libraries i'm afraid to say my degree rather uh bears this out i wasn't a regular at the library no me neither i'll just be honest about that i spent quite a lot of time in the library basement where the vending machines and the smoking room were that's what happened uh we have had a passionate email from julia um i wanted to add to the conversation about motherhood and i just completely agree with a previous listener who flagged up the vague criticism which seems to adhere to the expression stay-at-home mum.

30:22It's faintly patronising, seems to come from a place that believes the only valid work is paid work and the only way to support the future of the state is to be part of the taxation system. Personally, I believe that many young women would love to stay at home to raise their little citizens, but they're prevented from doing so by the ridiculous and unfair cost of buying or even renting a house when there's only one income coming in and not two. I was lucky enough to be born into a different world. I am now 72. Across two marriages and 50 years, I've raised four sons and two stepdaughters, none of whom is perfect, but all of whom have careers across policing, social work, accountancy and teaching.

30:58I was also able to offer significant help to my two nieces when my sister sadly died very young, leaving her two teenagers behind. I've since helped my daughters-in-law out of the washing machine of family life, plus jobs by providing childcare for my nine grandchildren. Not all at once, luckily. That would have killed the toughest granny, she says. And finally, I had the space to help my parents for the last 10 years of their long lives without getting too exhausted myself. Goodness me, Julia, you have put in a shift. But thank you for telling us about it and it's no mean feat to have been able to do that.

31:33And well done you for just doing it. Because it's largely women, it's not entirely women, but these people prop up the nation, they really do. Yeah. What can we say instead of stay-at-home mums? Because it is patronising. I mean, apart from anything else, it just kind of implies that you're stuck. It's stuck you permanently inside the house. You'll never go anywhere. So we definitely need a different term. Steve Wright always used to encourage his stay-at-home mum listeners to call themselves domestic engineers, didn't he? oh yes i think he did yeah yeah and and he had other euphemisms as well always deliver the plumb we still miss him the postcards one eve i know that uh i know that it got starred this morning and i i know that i've promised it twice now i think it's titled university homesickness is it that's very kind you're very good oh look there we go thank you genius uh caroline uh says autumnal greetings from Leeds regarding yesterday's conversation on how parents can support homesick students when I was at university in the early 2000s my mum and sometimes other relatives would send me postcards it was great because it was a little reminder of home and that they were thinking of me but less emotionally charged than a phone call which could make family feel very far away if it came on a tough day mum prided herself on finding the most boring postcard she could which always made me laugh I think that's such a nice little tip, Caroline.

33:06Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, and I think that's a very good point. Sometimes a phone call is not something you're able to do. Oh, absolutely. And when someone says, how are you, in a cheery voice, you know, you probably can't really find the right words to express how you are. And I love that, you know, just finding an incredibly dull postcard to send. So if you can still afford the stamps, and it's a big issue for many of us, then pop one in the post today. First class stamp is£1.80. Yes, it's just incredible. £1.80. You used to be able to go on holiday to Tenerife for that, for a fortnight. I just bring my things to work now, Jane.

33:43And Eve posts them on. What? By the way, Emily, you're going to get your copy of Alastair Campbell's Winners. And I do apologise because it was on a bookshelf that had a leak down the back of it. So it's a little bit worn, but I think it's very readable. Well, what an endorsement that is. Okay, enjoy.

34:29Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only. Not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify Bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit Bill.com slash proven for a special offer. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text.

35:06You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends.

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36:15Right, I think we'd better crack on. I think we'd better crack on. Yes. So, peoples, here comes an interview with May Musk, mother of Elon Musk, about her book, Timeless. She spent decades feeling like she was on a treadmill, always running, trying hard not to fall off. And her life does have something of a topsy-turvy feel to it. Her modelling success has come on in bounds in her later decades, as has her doctorate in nutrition and her worldwide fame through the rise of her son Elon Musk to become one of the richest and possibly most controversial men in the world. Well, May's early years in South Africa were often difficult.

36:56She trained as a dietician, she modelled two and she married young and it was to be a marriage characterised by violence and abuse, one that she did get out of but she found herself moving halfway across the world as a single mum to keep setting up home from Durban to Canada to California to New York. May, where do you join us from this afternoon? From New York. Excellent. Well, it's absolutely lovely to have you on the programme. You look blooming wonderful. And we'll talk about that in depth in the next half an hour or so. But tell us a little bit about life back then in South Africa. And maybe we'll start with some childhood memories which have the magic of the Kalahari in them.

37:40Oh, yes. Well, my parents were adventurers. That's why we moved to South Africa from Regina, Saskatchewan in Canada. People don't even know where that is. And they'd heard from missionaries that there were wild animals and there was a lot of trees and mountains and beautiful foliage, whereas Saskatchewan was a wheat area where everything was flat. So they wanted to explore that. And we went to South Africa. And my dad had already explored Canada and America. So he wanted to explore Africa. So first of all, my parents would fly up Africa to Europe and come back in a single engine plane, canvas plane, with no GPS or anything like that.

38:35They didn't have radios either. You just flew and you landed where you could. And then they also went to Australia, the only people to do that. And then they won the Cape to Algiers rally. So that they did when I was very young, before I was five. And then when I was five years old, we started going to the Kalahari Desert. And we were the only family that would go from one village to another for three weeks looking for the lost city because there'd been a lot of books and stories about the lost city. And my dad thought that was very fascinating. So we would then sleep on the ground, of course, so there's no beds.

39:14And with a sleeping bag and then hope the hyenas don't bite off your face. but so we got just used to sleeping wherever you could you know and he just wanted us to know that when you go through hard times you can actually sleep on the ground right I mean the hyenas as well you did well to survive it's an extraordinary childhood and can we spool forward a little bit because you do detail some things in the book that really pull into very sharp focus just how difficult some points in your life have been, May. So you had dated Errol Musk on and off when you were at college. We know that you married him and he's the father of your three children.

40:05But actually, you say in the book, you never agreed to marry him. He basically got engaged to you, even though you hadn't really got engaged to him. Correct. So I haven't, I really didn't date him much because I was at university for four years and he didn't come to the dietetics department. I didn't go to the engineering department. We didn't do lunches or anything. And we dated once every few months just because I was such a nerd. I didn't have any dates. And so sometimes he would take me to dinner. He didn't realize that I'd never been out to dinner before. But we didn't get along because he was very aggressive.

40:48If anybody came and spoke to me, he would want to beat them up. So I really didn't date him. And then I went to Cape Town, a thousand miles away. And then he came in and he said, I brought an engagement ring. I said, I'll never marry you. He went back and told my parents that I was going to, that I'd agreed to marry him. And my parents were surprised because they didn't know I was dating him and I wasn't. So then the next thing I get a telegram, 800 people come into the wedding, there's 200 guests, and you're getting married with my princess and her boyfriend. And so what do I say? Do I say, no, I don't, I'm not getting married.

41:32But I just thought, well, I was in a bad situation, obese and lonely and backache. And so I just thought, well, what's worse than that? But I have to say, even though the marriage was bad, I had three wonderful children and they brought me a lot of joy. So I have to say thank you for that. And that absolutely sings in the book, your maternal devotion to your children, May. But I mean, I think anyone who reads your story would have enormous sympathy for a very young woman trapped in a violent marriage. And you say that the bruises started on your honeymoon. And he also drove a wedge between you and your family, didn't he?

42:22So it was difficult for you to say what was happening to you. Yeah, I wasn't allowed to see my family or have any friends. Now, when I say that, you can't believe how many women relate to that. And I'm shocked that it's happening so much in the world. What would your advice be to anybody who is listening who thinks, yep, this is my story too? Yeah, oh, there you go. let your friends and family know because my family had no idea and my friends had no idea they just knew that they couldn't visit me or talk to me but they thought it was because I'm busy with three kids you know until my mom when he the first time he wanted to beat me up in public then my friends took me to I didn't have many friends but they were people we would see on rare occasions.

43:21They took me to my mom's home and then she found out. And then when he came there, he came to find me the next morning and he begged for me to return. And she said, you touch my daughter again. You hurt her again. And she's coming to live with me with the children. And he never hit me again. So I couldn't believe this small elderly woman could control that. And so then I could open my practice and see patients. And then I was asked to do modelling, which was bizarre because I was 28. And they needed mother of the bride. And you can't have a 15-year-old modelling mother of the bride. So that's when there was a niche for me.

44:09Sure. And your life did get better. You divorced Errol and you took on the role of provider and single mum, which you detail in the book. I don't wish to make you dwell on such a dark period of your life, Mae. We've got plenty of other things to talk about. But I would want to ask you what effect you think his behaviour had on your children. Well, my children don't talk to him.

44:36When we're together, we actually don't talk about it. we just have so much fun together. Elon lived with him when he was quite young though didn't he? Yes and what happens I got divorced and two years in Elon had read every book he wanted in the school library and his father had a computer two sets of encyclopedias and a great library nearby so So that's what, and he wouldn't let Elon bring the computer to my home. So Elon went there and that's what he did. And it was actually the best thing, although he said it was horrible living with his father. He had the computer and books and that's what he loved.

45:23You must have worried about him being with Beryl though. Well, he could have come back if he wanted to. but then he came back he could come back without a computer or books and he rather put up with the abuse right which he has spoken about hasn't he yes I can tell that you would like us to move on and we absolutely will may I do want to talk about Elon as a child but we also need to talk about your success and what you did with your own life. Because as you say, you are a mistress of reinvention and resilience. Let me take you over and over again, over and over again. So you go back to Canada as a single mum, you're trying to build up your dietician's practice.

46:15What happens then? Things aren't easy for a very long time for you, are they? Yes, but they're not easy financially. But they're easy because I found out my ex-husband couldn't sue me. He'd been suing me every year. So I had nine years of lawsuits. And I had no idea how wonderful it feels that you can not have this pain in your gut because there's another lawsuit coming up. So, we first started in a one-bedroom apartment and then we got a rent-controlled three-bedroom apartment. It was fabulous. I mean, and two bathrooms. And it just took us three weeks to clean it up so that we could actually make it livable.

47:04And then I could find really inexpensive beds, inexpensive linen. And, you know, if good linen is flawed, you can get it for a very low price. And then buy clothes is very warehouses where you could get clothes that are very inexpensive. So I was a research officer at the University of Toronto, as well as then it took four months before I could get my registration as a dietician. But in that time, I taught then public health in the evenings for early childhood educators. And so you do all sorts of things. But modelling started right away because in Toronto, they didn't have a 41-year-old model.

47:52And they needed one. And I did so many mother of the brides. But then they also needed grandmothers. So at 42, I was doing grandmother ads because you can't use a young girl. You've gone on to be astonishingly successful in your 60s and 70s. And there may be some people listening who think that it's a trivial question to ask you about the colour of your hair. But actually, it's not, is it? Well, I'm so happy I went natural. First of all, doing the roots when you're blonde is really, it can look pretty bad. because I had to do it myself because I couldn't afford a hairstylist. So when I went natural, I was told I would never model again.

48:40And within a year, I had four billboards in Times Square and one in Madison Square Gardens. And maybe a few years I got those four billboards. And so obviously they wanted a white-haired woman. And it's really worked out. Yes. Mate, as you know, people really, really want to talk to you about your son, Elon. So I've got a lot of questions from our listeners who've called in this afternoon. Your descriptions of him as a child are very interesting. A little one who was lost in books. He was awkward in social situations. He needed very little sleep. Did you worry about him and what he had become as an adult?

49:27well no i didn't worry about him i was just worried about health and they were all in good health and then um yeah i didn't really worry i just knew he was extreme nerd but um and nerds would really invent fabulous stuff in their basements but they couldn't really get out but then when kimball and elon started zip2 then they would give a presentation and elon would talk about coding because that's very important to him. And then nobody understood him. And then Kimball would come along and explain exactly what Zip2 did. And then they would get financing for it. So Kimball could talk normally to people and Elon could talk coding to people.

50:18And now he's got so many coding people around him. And they, when I sit in on their meetings, they just laugh and they enjoy it so much. I understand nothing. But as you well know, Elon can also really rub people up the wrong way. And you do mention quite a few times in the book, just the weight that that controversy has sometimes placed on your family and on him. Do you think we are getting him wrong? You say when we believe he's made a Nazi salute. In fact, this is just an awkward guy on stage who doesn't really know what to do with his body. Yes, well, you know, it's an Obama arm gesture, Biden, AOC, Emmanuel Macron.

51:08all of them raised their arms and repeatedly. And Elon says, my heart goes out to you. And people say, that's what Nazis did. And I think, no, they didn't say my heart goes out to you and then raise their arms. But the press didn't say that. They were very dishonest because they knew this would cause violence and hatred. And it did, which was very sad. You say in the book as well that you might have slightly different political views to him. I was interested by that. I mean, are you a President Trump supporter yourself? I am a supporter of America and the world and I want only good things to happen and I think they're going to be and they are happening I'm seeing it every day when I'm on X I really enjoy it because I see this progress being made especially regarding fraud and corruption.

52:18Do you think that sometimes your son doesn't realise how provocative he's being then? Because an awful lot of people would say that he's incredibly divisive now, especially with what he tweets and what he talks about on X. Oh, I don't, I don't have, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't get that from anyone. And I travel the world giving talks and modeling and people all, I haven't had one person say to me, oh, what did Elon say? Or something like that. They all say, we love Elon. We love Elon. So So the media is not getting across to them because the media hates him and makes up lies about him. And they're very proud of that because stupid people believe the media.

53:06And then stupid and crazy. Remember, my mom says don't argue with people who are stupid or crazy. And so if you're going to believe the media, I don't know why when I model or give talks, why nobody believes the media. So it gives me a lot of hope. Okay. What do you think your son will be doing in maybe 10, 15 years' time? One of our listeners wanted to know how as a mum you would feel if he did go and live on Mars? He can do whatever he likes. And if he... I think it will be engineers that would go to Mars first to build homes and cities because if we're going to destroy the world, you need plan B.

53:59Right. Would you ever want to go to a different planet, May? Well, I'm very comfortable, so I don't think I need to even consider that because maybe they only start building homes in 10 years' time, so then I'll be 88. and 88 is not a good age to go and start all over in another planet. You do say towards the end of the book just how happy you are. You have been fulfilled through taking care of your children. You now have a role as a grandmother. I know that other journalists have asked you this in the past about how many grandchildren you have, May, so I am going to ask you because we're a little unsure as to how many children Elon has and I'm presuming that you aren't unsure about that at all.

54:52So I have 18 grandchildren and what they know is that they have to have good manners because I always insist on that, but they do have. I'm so happy, especially the older ones. And then when they come and stay with me, they are so polite. And then also, I don't give gifts to them. I only give hugs. And so once one of my grandsons said, why doesn't grandma give me presents for my birthday? And then his twin sister says, she gives us hugs. And there's never enough hugs. So I'm happy with all the kids. I just love seeing them. but I'm not a cuddly little grandma. I just observe and if they want to come sit on my lap, they can.

55:45Do you worry about their future? And I know that you do worry about Elon because you do say in the book that actually when he gets death threats, of course that's going to run a chill through a mother's spine, isn't it? It is. It is death threats, but that's very much encouraged by the media. Well, I think some people listening would say that Elon can be a little bit provocative himself, May. There is a point in the book where you talk about his generosity towards the rescue campaign of the Thai boys who were stuck in the cave. And he developed this mini submarine that he wanted to be able to gift to them.

56:28I mean, of course, the way that we might remember that incident and your son's involvement is him calling one of the rescuers a paedophile and it ending up in court. I mean, there just are two sides to the story, aren't they? Being in the media doesn't automatically mean that we're wrong. Well, you obviously don't know much about that incident, so I'm not going to explain it to you. Okay. I would like to return to your own life, May. I think you've done some remarkable things in it. And I wonder that young single mum who was going down to the local shop to buy the cheapest laundry to look after her kids who had managed to get herself out of a really nasty marriage, what would she think of where you are now?

57:16well she wouldn't believe it there's no way you can believe it um yeah for 20 years it was really you're just terrified inside you know you're working as hard as you can but you remember i moved to a lot of cities and countries and with each one i had to rewrite the dietician exams in in order to see patients and then start modeling modeling actually started right away because nobody had an old model. So there wasn't that much competition. But no, it's quite amazing what's going on. But I do work continuously on social media. On X, I get all my speaking engagements and translations of my books.

58:03And then on Instagram and Facebook, I get my modeling jobs. Well, it is A Remarkable Life. It is detailed in Timeless, which is the latest book from May Musk. Thank you very much indeed for joining us this afternoon. May Musk, there's a picture of her on the cover. Honestly, she's a very, very, very stunning woman. And the greyification, the grey-naissance, whatever you want to call it, it's interesting just how impactful that change in hair colour can be. For her, all good. And for many of us it's the reason why we can't bring ourselves to do it because we think it's going to be all bad well which reminds me i've got an appointment so uh this afternoon uh making use of my truanting thursday afternoons off because as we speak we haven't heard may musk it's morning time here in london yeah um does that make sense well it does so something absolutely explosive happened in this interview we don't know we don't know yet uh so we're just talking as if nothing difficult has happened at all i mean what could possibly go wrong with an interview with a musk i can't think yeah uh who do we have as a bonus episode tomorrow jane well i hope people will make time in their lives for a friday bonus edition of off air it's a mash-up with a podcast that is joining us here in the times towers family it's julia samuel the psychotherapist and very successful author as well.

59:30And her podcast is called Therapy Works or Therapy Works. I can never quite decide how you say it, but that's the least of all of our problems. Julia is well worth hearing from. And we've had a chat with her about the podcast and about life in general. And people can hear that tomorrow. Excellent. Have you got a new Marks and Spencers loafer on there? Yes, I have. I have. And I've also... We started with these shoes, were only with yours? Yes. And I'm wearing a couple of... Well, I'm wearing a Compeed blister pad supplied by Hannah and one of my own plasters. Right. So they haven't proved to be the most well-fitted shoe.

1:00:05Well, it's early days for me and my Marks and Spencers loafers. I don't know why we're plugging that company because they don't come back to us. Oh, well, I think we can still plug that company. In the hope that one day they will. So super, super tight blister making shoes. they then often turn into your most favourite most luxuriantly comfortable shoes It's a very curious area of life isn't it that you do have to put the effort in with new shoes apart from trainers and even they can sometimes cause a commotion on the heel Yeah, but it is worth sticking with an uncomfortable shoe to see if it turns into that It's not worth sticking with an uncomfortable bra that will never become comfortable I leave you with that thought, goodbye Bye

1:01:03Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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