True crime and vaginal oestrogen

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0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:28You're on. Oh, thanks. I was a bit nervous, but I know I'm on now. Welcome back to Off Air, not with Fee this week, because she's on her holidays, and I'm back, and Eve's here. So, you know, it's not bad, is it? No, it's not bad. I think it's great. Thank you. How was your holiday? Well, let's not bother about the holiday. Let's talk about how you slept last night, how everyone's feeling. and I was looking for evidence this morning on my way to work of scenes of mad celebration after, let's just be honest, England men's triumph last night in Mexico City. And I just watched the highlights last night.

2:04No, this morning when I woke up with Michael. Oh, you didn't watch the... No, I was woken up by... I mean, I don't officially get up in the night, but last night, call it nerves, I did actually wake up at 20 past two in the morning, put the radio on, because I'm such an old traditionalist, and listened to the commentary, which was very exciting. But you didn't do that. You didn't even do that, did you? Well, Jane... Young people today. You point the finger at me. Did you make it through the commentary? No, I fell asleep again. But England were winning 3-1. It was very tense making. So you slept soundly.

2:36Well, I thought that you would have been up. Well, no, not at my age. You can't take any chances, Eve. No, I didn't stay up because I've been feeling a little bit under the weather recently, so I thought it wasn't wise. but when I woke up and I saw the headlines and cinematic history made I had a bad case of FOMO I was always hoping that it wouldn't be such a good game so I wouldn't have missed out You actually wanted to wake up to the news that England lost 4-0 and that you'd missed nothing Because I took a bit of a gamble and I was like oh you know This is why I genuinely I would love to hear from people who just don't have a shred of interest in sport because events like this, to me, it's why I just love sport.

3:21Because of the jeopardy. Because you never, ever know what's going to happen. Well, Jane, you really don't. No, I don't. No, I've sacked her off. Do you know what Mystic Garb... No, she's useless. Do you know what this Thursday is? Yeah, no, I know. She's rubbish. This Thursday marks the date that Mystic Garb predicted England men out. It's marked on our calendars. it has been there for quite a while. Well, that was a hopeless date to pick because there were no games on that day. So that's just not, just pay no attention to Mystic Garth. She doesn't exist. Could not have been more wrong. Not even a game that day.

3:55Yeah, okay, rubbish. But what I would say is when I staggered out of my pit this morning, having, and Eve's not, she's got a point here, how I fell asleep again, I don't know, but I did. Got up this morning, made my tea, watched the highlights. And I've got to say, I was, do you know what? I found it genuinely moving because I really felt that in the last, I don't know, 10, 15 minutes of that match, the team really battled hard. And actually, they looked like they cared. And by the end, I was absolutely with them. I'm genuinely chuffed. They were hungry for it. They were hungry for it. And I hadn't felt that previously in some matches, I'll be honest with you, Jane.

4:34No, I hadn't either. Let's not forget. I mean, it's easy to knock these blokes because they're earning just sums of money that are beyond eye-watering. We're talking 300 grand a week or something like that in some cases. So, yeah, it's easy to say they don't care. Well, last night, they looked like they did. Harry Kane sounded like me by the end of the match. Harry Eve Kane. That's what I'm going to call him from now on. He's never gone viral, or has he? There's something viral going on in his throat. There definitely is. Anyway, look, Norway awaits. That's Saturday night at 10 o 'clock. Now, sure, you'll make a commitment to that one, Will.

5:09Oh, absolutely. Because I'm going to be in France, actually. on a family, big family holiday with lots and lots of family friends. Oh, well, that'd be great. So I think there will be quite an atmos for that. Yeah, I think there will be. So we've now completely lost every single listener who doesn't give a tinkers, no, we can't say that, who doesn't give a monkeys a bat sport. But I actually, I was going to say that I didn't see any evidence of late night cavorting in central London. I only saw one little child, a little toddler, very cute little lad on the train this morning in an England shirt.

5:41That was very sweet. I mean, he was far too young to have a clue what he was wearing, but it still looked very sweet. And I saw one discarded glass of red wine on the streets of central London. Rather civilised. Yeah, that's it. No other, I didn't see piles of vomit or signs of any destruction, which is great. So I don't know, maybe it wasn't as wild last night as we've been told it would be. I've seen some footage of it going relatively wild, but maybe they weren't in central London. Maybe people were more in their locals. a bit closer to home and to bed. I don't know. Well, whatever. I'm speculating.

6:15Whereabouts in France are you going? I'm going to St. Marlowe, which is in Brittany. Okay, right. Not that far from home. For Bastille Day. Oh, God. That should be absolutely wild. But you had a nice time in France. I did. I went very close to Bordeaux. One of the towns, well, it wasn't really a town, it was a tiny village that we visited. It was really, really sleepy and a really gorgeous little French town. and when I looked it up it was kind of sad because it said it had been the site of the last battle in the hundred years war which ended I'm here to tell you in 1453 because I wrote it down and you just think wow in the most gorgeous tranquil of places terrible things have happened yeah so that's a bit of a sad memory from my trip to Porto but it was gorgeous apart from that let's hear it for a quick change of subject here one thing I just wanted to shout about uh is french kitchen roll it's just a wonderful thing because they have the option on french kitchen roll of the half slice oh do you know what i mean yes because sometimes you don't need a full a full slice of kitchen roll and the french offer half a one we need to start doing that was it quite robust it was reasonably robust i would say not as robust as my favored kitchen roll in the uk but i just think we need to start offering the option not to have a full slice of kitchen roll it's not always required and we've got the planet to think about is it is it not a bit more fiddly to rip off a half though you'd be surprised it's not no the the facility is there on the kitchen roll and i really appreciated it so thanks to the french person who invented that right let's move on to the tennis i did go to wimbledon yesterday yes i was very very fortunate uh but i've got to say some of those prices eve wow talk about fancy eye-watering were they they really were no one tell you could take your own booze in apparently you can and believe me i'll be doing that in future i was very grateful though because i got uh thanks to one of my offspring uh tickets to number one court so we did have a lovely day uh and it's so i have to say sometimes you visit an occasion or an event that is just so well done and shout out to the organizers of wimbledon because it's so well it's brilliantly executed.

8:33Can I ask you what you donned? I wore, well, it's a good question. It was, I mean, it's a fiesta of linen. I have to say most people look very, very smart. One or two people didn't. And I'm going to say, I just think you need to dress up a little bit for Wimbledon. I mean, go with the flow of what is clearly a big day out for so many people. And the people who camp out and love tennis and really appreciate it. I mean, they can't always look super smart. Some of them have been in a tent for four days, for God's sake. But those of us who've just got a tube there, there's no reason not to look reasonably smart.

9:11I mean, I was crumpled by closer play. Well, it was hot. I was sweaty and I'd had a few pimps. I probably wouldn't want to have been photographed by the end of the occasion. You're prone to a little spillage now and again. I didn't actually spill anything yesterday and that was in spite of the fact that I had a lot of ketchup on my burger. But my daughter was watching proceedings and she always guides me. Because she knows how inept I am. So kind. Yeah, so we had a lovely time. So thanks to her, actually, because she was the one who invited me. So we did have a lovely day. Saw some amazing, I mean, can you play tennis?

9:45No. No, no, nor can I. Well, have you ever played it? Yes, I was made to do a camp on summer. Then there was a competition at the end of the camp where you all played each other and I came second to last. Oh, well, yeah, as I would always say at home, somebody has to. Yeah, and it wasn't last. And it wasn't last. Well, did you have a decent forehand? I believe so. Clearly not that decent. No, but I do enjoy watching tennis and I like strawberries and cream and I like Pimms. Yeah, OK, well, you probably pretty much nailed it. I saw a women's game and then almost not the whole of the men's game that came next yesterday afternoon.

10:27And it goes without saying that the standard is breathtaking. And you know what really baffles me about tennis is they have a nanosecond, less than that really, to decide what shot they're going to deploy. And more often than not, they get it more or less right. I mean, obviously things go wrong. I just don't understand that. At some point, it just must become complete and utter instinct. Yeah, I guess it must. But to reach that point and then you can give it such force, such oomph, It is massively impressive. I'm not sure it's our calling. No. Well, it wasn't. Why we're here talking tosh about tennis.

11:05My daughter did ask, and I don't know the answer to this, what happens to the All England Club the rest of the year? It's a huge, huge chunk of land. Absolutely enormous. Vast. I'd forgotten how huge it was. And does it really? I mean, what happens for the other 50 weeks? Wimbledon goes on for two weeks. Then what? Well, don't the people of Wimbledon just play tennis? No, I don't think so. I think they do year round. I think it's like this little tennis utopia. No, you're kidding, aren't you? Only if you're a member of the club. Not if you're Mrs Jo Spark. I don't think she's got her... She might have it out, but she's not playing there.

11:38Mrs Jo Spark, get in touch. Yeah, please do. It's Jane and Fee at Times.radio. Anyway, lovely day out. A lot of sport. Once again, I've learned that Pimms is not the drink for me. No wonder you didn't make it through the football commentary. Actually, that's a good point. Well made. Right, now, I know that you and Fee were making merry last week. A lot of people enjoyed your input. I've noticed this, Fee, I've just called you Fee, Eve, because they say that there's one lovely email here pointing out that you get on very well with older people. Oh, yes, I saw this. Now, why do you think this is?

12:12Because I'm paid to. Right, there we are. There's a very, very honest answer. No, I thought that was a really nice email. Yes, it's from Andrew. thank you for this Andrew my question to Eve is you seem to have a lovely warm relationship with Jane and Fee why do you like having older friends she's already answered this Andrew what would you say to your peers about widening their viewpoint on friendships and the benefits it's brought to you in doing so he says lots of love to you all well love to you too Andrew thank you for that thought provoking question I'm going to offer Eve the opportunity to answer the question in a different way?

12:52I think a sense of humour prevails. And I think that anyone can get on if you have a sense of humour. And that probably is it. Yeah. So we've got sense of humour and money. And what else motivates you? The troubles that I face in life and the troubles that you face in life are probably very different. Yeah, but sometimes not so different. Well, that's true. But I do think that the problems that you face, for example, with your parents, are very, very different to the troubles that I face and that maybe me and my peers would gripe about and that you would gripe about with your friends. So then our relationship exists in an area away from the gripes that we share with our peers, which maybe allows it to just be a bit lighter.

13:39Well, there's your answer, Andrew. She did better that time, I thought. Do you think that's fair? I think the truth may have come out the first time she answered the question, but still. um no i do think it's fair and i one of the things i like about working here is that i get to spend time with people in their 20s and 30s and it's just good fun and you're right we can talk on a sort of level playing field about the things we do have in common and we can disagree about some some view but i mean i don't agree with everything your generation thinks and i'm never going to and you're not going to agree with everything um i think or fee thinks or people like me think so I think it's really healthy and also we don't really ever lose our fruits I want to name check Caroline Caroline Priestley is the fantastic um well she's she's an illustrator and she did these fantastic drawings of the pets didn't she which I really appreciate the effort you went to there Caroline if you're going to the Royal Academy summer exhibition this year I do have a drawing on their cat wall so just to anyone who is going to that exhibition at the Royal Academy look out for fur coat, no whiskers.

14:41She says there are many beautiful cats on the wall and in other parts of the gallery, there's a reclining giant black cat sculpture and also the famous Palmerston sitting on a set of photographer's steps. I'm not sure. It's not a real stuffed cat, she says. It is well worth a visit. Caroline, thank you. And thank you again for the lovely portraits you did for us. Palmerston, I think, is the Foreign Office cat. Could be wrong. yes we might have to give that google I think Fee did also read out that email from Caroline but get it twice you're welcome Caroline you worked hard so you know sometimes we need to just own that what else do I want to mention Zoe says I just wanted to email in to agree with the comments this presumably was Fee last week about the scarcity and the need for silent places in cities I work in a university library and I spend my lunch breaks in the silent reading areas.

15:42They are often the most peaceful periods of my week and I just cherish them. Just for the record, I am not a shy retiring librarian type. I actually can be quite the chatterbox. But the silent reading flaws give both my ears and mouth a break. The other day, another colleague entered the silent space, but the rules prevented us from talking to each other. I thought it was bliss, says Zoe. Yeah, even those of us who talk for a living appreciate silence. No. And silent places. Yes. No, I don't know what. I'm staying quiet. I'm bringing in Valley, who says, after suffering from a painful hip, what's the answer on the cat, by the way?

16:26Sorry. Yeah, he is the cat of the UK Foreign Office in Commonwealth. So I was right. You are right. Own it. Fee and Eve and Jane. This is from Valley. After suffering from a painful hip for several months, I took myself off to my GP, imagining that I was heading for a hip replacement, but it turned out my arch had dropped. Not both of them, just the one. Pain left after having an inner sole fitted into that shoe. Well, a tennis shoe, she says, as I can't wear an ordinary shoe with the inner sole. Have a wonderful holiday, Fee. Right, thank you. This was a conversation we had. We pondered whether you are born with flat feet and high arches.

17:08Because last week, Les Snowden had got a pedicure and I think he might have shown her his high arches or at least said that he had very high arches. I think we need to explain who Les is because this is beginning to sound a bit creepy. Les is our wonderful football journalist who's bringing us news from the World Cup but not necessarily straight football. He's kind of on the road. It's the World Cup road trip. And yeah, he flashed his high arches to Fee. Talking of high arches. Robbie Millen's outside. He's coming in. Carry on, Eve. Fee said something about in the war, yes, soldiers weren't allowed.

17:44This is absolutely true. But we couldn't understand why. Okay, I'm not sure either, but I'm going to put the shout out again because I think somebody will know, and maybe Robbie with all his military experience. Robbie Millen is literary editor of the Times and Sunday Times. Why were men with flat feet not allowed to take part in, not join the army or the armed forces of any sort? Well, you can't march, can you? You could fight, though, couldn't you? I suppose you're not so much use, though, if you've got to romp large distances. I've got flat feet. Oh, that's handy. Yes. I need arch support right now.

18:19How did I know that you might be a sufferer? Yeah, no, exactly. It's the way I walk, I think. that's my uneducated guess I'm going to ask Max Hastings for you actually I would like you to when you next speak to Max Hastings military historian, great writer I'd love to know what the answer is I'm going to find out for you do flat feet, are they painful? I used to like running, jogging and things like that, tried marathons disaster really? tried marathons? yeah yeah yes I'm sorry to say I'm quite surprised No, I'm genuinely impressed that you did. Yeah, I wasn't very good at it. It was pain. Did you complete one?

18:59No, well, I sort of got to half marathon and then realised that I'm not designed for fast movement. No. I'm like the Mississippi. I move slowly and inexorably. It's almost like the literary area of the times might be the right place for you. No, exactly. It's not too... Although we have to move books around. We get two sacks a day, you know. I know, you do. It's very arduous. I know it's hard. I mean, people talked about the Siberian salt mines, but it's not a patch on what goes on here. No, exactly. And also, if you open an envelope badly, you get all those little... I know. Paper cuts. Paper cuts and also the dust from it, you know.

19:38So it's like there is such a thing as literary editor's lung from imbibing poorly opened envelopes. Do you open your own post? Yes, I know. It's a dangerous business. I know, exactly. I don't, by the way. I'm too grand. She actually doesn't. I just can't. It's simply too dangerous. It is quite right.

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20:38You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

21:22Robbie, it's good to see you. Genuinely. Now, we're going to talk books because we've got to do a chunk of this podcast that is suitable for radio, which is just a production note really, and doesn't help anyone listening to the podcast. But I also would like you just to have a quick look at some of the emails about bedside tables and the books that have piled up by some listeners to off air now have you got it you've got a chunk of them there i think um i'm just going to mention does anyone keep a trollop by their bedside we love auntie trollop thank you uh etty says here's my bedside table with the books i'm about to read now this is interesting she says she's halfway through the prisoner the sequel to the fabulous crooked cross by sally carson yes yeah um I like this, Eddie.

22:08My survival kit is also by my bed. Vaginal oestrogen. Oh.

22:15A fan and all my books. What more could a 69-year-old happily single woman need? Eddie, thank you for your honesty. Much appreciated. Right, tell me about the Crooked Cross sequel. What is the Crooked Cross by Sally Carson? So this is Sally Carson. She's one of these writers that's recently been rediscovered and reissued, 1930s writer. and I think she lived, and this is off the top of my head, I think she actually lived in Germany in the early 30s. So I think she wrote her first novel, which I think was The Crooked Cross, The Crooked Cross being the swastika. Right. I think about 1933 and it turned out to be very prescient about what was happening there.

22:54So in a way she was one of the first people to warn about this impending disaster. Oh, I see, okay. Yeah, that's why it sort of gains a sort of new status. Right. Yes, there are some horrifying stories about the right-wing parties in Germany coming to the fore again now. Anyway, let's try and be more cheerful. Yes, yes, exactly. That reminds me of a Frank Gardner book I'm reading at the moment, and we're going to talk to Frank in a couple of weeks on the programme, aren't we, Fee? Aren't we, Fee? God, I'm calling a Fee. Yes, we are. Thank you, Fee Eve. Right, so I think you're getting a tick for your bedside table, Etty.

23:25Thank you very much for the email. Right, what else have you got, Robbie? I'm looking at this, and I'm not sure who this is, but that's a very nice selection. She got Land by Maggie O 'Farrell, which is only just out. It's brilliant. And The Land in Wind by Andrew Miller, which I thought was terrific. It came out last year. Should have won the Booker Prize, if you ask me. But no one did. Never do. Same old story. So we like that. It's Monica. Oh, Monica. We like her. Because she's got another book we've featured, Hungry, by Katrina O'Sullivan, which we talked about on the programme, and indeed I interviewed Katrina.

23:58So thank you very much for drawing further attention to that. What else has she got there? Nicola Sparks, Counting Miracles. I don't know that one either. Marie Bostwick's The Book Club for Troublesome Women. That sounds more my territory than yours, to be honest, Robbie. Got Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe. Everyone loves Patrick Radden Keefe because he's got his book out this year. London Falling. London Falling, thank you. Brain fade there. Yeah. And obviously another... Empire of Pain. And then Say Nothing. So he's, I think, if you want to look a bit sophisticated and suave, you can't go wrong with Patrick Radden Keefe.

24:32Patrick Reddenkeith and your vaginal oestrogen and your set fair for a half-decent night. I know, I'm just... I'm off already. Well, yes. He's making for the exit, in fact. You know what, Robbie? I'll let you mention one more list of books. Oh, I was going to say, this is right. I love Deborah Mogad. Yeah. Here's one of Paul... This is a rather nice part. The Other Bennett Sister by Janet. By the way, a lot of people have got The Other Bennett Sister by the way. Carry on, sorry. Because I think the novel by Janice Heller, I've Got a Feeling, is better than the recent Kelly adaptation. And this book has also got Best Loved Winnie the Pooh stories, which is a very good choice.

25:10And Claire Keegan, Small Things Like These. I think Claire Keegan's amazing. She has these very tightly written, shortish novellas. I mean, all novellas are short, aren't they? Can you define a novella? How long is too long for a novella? Oh, that's a good question. and I think if it's over 120 pages, it's starting to get novelish. Right. She keeps it really tight, Claire Keegan. She doesn't write very much either. Is it just easy to write a short book? Well, do you know what? No, it's not. I tell you what, it's like when I'm in a hurry and I have to write something, it's easy to write long. You know that old, I think, is it a Mark Twain saying, sorry, I wrote you a long letter because I didn't have time to write you a short one.

25:55Brilliant. because you have to kind of edit yourself if you're doing it small every word must count whereas i just blither it all out well yeah i've read some of your stuff did you get to the end yeah sometimes uh robbie thank you very much indeed for that we'll now move on to your literary picks of the week oh i should say got some great guests coming later this week on the podcast before we bring in robbie the mega mega selling novelist lisa jewel and the Oh, yes. A fantastic swimmer and strictly contestant Mark Foster, who's written, I think, a very interesting sporting memoir. They're not always the best books by sports people.

26:35No, gosh, no. But Mark has done a very, very good job. He's very tall as well. He's six foot four. Yes, as is Luke Jones. Both giants among men. Luke Jones isn't tall, is he? Well, I look up to him. Well, yeah, but so do I. OK, he's five foot six. Right, OK. In that case, he is tall. It's because of my flat feet. Literary editor of the Times and Sunday Times, Robbie Millen is here with some of his book picks of the week. Now, you've got one that I loved so much when I read up on this one that I have made it my new audio book, Robbie. Oh, gosh, OK. So this really, you'd better give this top, top marks.

27:13It's The Family Man by James Lasden. Now, what is this about? Ah, right. Some of you might be familiar with the case. It's about a terrible murder, a man called Alex Murdoch, who murdered his wife and his 22-year-old son. And he's from a prosperous South Carolina family. He's from a long family of lawyers. So he kind of murdered them on, or allegedly murdered on them, on his estate. It was a kind of, they had a big hunting lodge down in the kind of, near the swamplands of South Carolina. and it really captured the public imagination in America because it had a lot of the good ingredients for a sort of true crime gripper.

27:57First of all, it was a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible crime. You must remember that. But there were sort of stories within stories because the son he murdered had been involved in a terrible boat accident a couple of years before. His son was a bit kind of, by all accounts, a bit of a spoiled brat, had been skippering a boat which crashed and the girl on board, fellow student aged 20 or so, died on board. And there was a sort of sense there had been a cover-up. Okay, this is Shades of the Kennedys and Ted Kennedy, wasn't it? Exactly, yeah, definitely. So it's, yeah, one of those stories about privilege and the fact that they were from this long family of lawyers meant there was this kind of real feeling, yeah, that they were too close to the police and the police were very slow to investigate.

28:41So James Lasden, who's a novelist, a Brit, who lived in America for a long time and a New Yorker writer. He's written this, I think, really fascinating book which peels back the layers and it becomes ever more complex. You realise all of a sudden the housekeeper died in very mysterious circumstances a few years before that. At the same property. Yes, exactly. So it's all of a sudden, it becomes this fascinating kind of description of one corner of South Carolina, this kind of power in one family. But also the thing that really he keeps worrying away at, what turns a man into a killer of his own wife and children?

29:19Because it's reasonably rare. Well, also, this man, we should say, there was no record of domestic violence or suggestion that he would be capable of this. But then it sort of becomes more, evidence comes out that he's been defrauding his illegal partners and also his clients. So he was big into sort of civil litigation, and sort of suing people to get their sort of medical bills paid and such like. But he would, these were people he'd known for years and would lie to them and just take all of their money. So like if you'd get a$150 ,000 award, he would take it away and just take it for himself, which is a kind of very unusual to be able to sit next to someone, look at them in the eyes and lie to them.

30:04So that's the conundrum. You know, what turned, what is this sort of white-collar criminal into something much, much, much worse? It's just, I think he does it in a really intelligent way. And at times I thought, come on, it's easy. He's just a psychopath and things like that. Then actually there's going to be another trial in this case because of jury trampering. I mean, one of the problems with writing true crime books these days is that wherever he was going trying to talk to people, they would say, oh, well, you'd be lucky to get that person to talk. Netflix has already been round and basically brought people up.

30:42Gosh, OK, I mean, you're right, this is the world we now inhabit. And those of us who do feel, I mean, I've just admitted, admitted, that I've downloaded it, I want to hear it. Yeah. Is true crime OK or do you feel somewhat a little bit mucky when you've indulged in it? Well, I mean, again, that's a problem that he worries away at as well because he's a New Yorker writer, clever fellow. He doesn't want to do anything too tawdry. And I think this is very non-lurid. This is very much trying to strip away the nonsense, the hyperbole. And he mentions the various bits of gossip about this Alec Murdoch having affairs and things like that with what we call blonde bimbos and such like.

31:25But he sort of tries to keep it as, you know, straight as possible. And it's very intelligent, non-lurid. because I have to say I'm a fan of true crime. I'm criminally minded. But I can't read any of the really lurid stuff because you do feel that kind of ick factor. You know, sometimes it's easy to sort of get carried away with the writing of a book and things like that and forget, well, actually there are victims here. Yeah, yeah. So we've got to remember that. Well, of course we have. But this does sound very intriguing. I mean, there's just no denying it. It's The Family Man by James Lasden.

32:00And that's out now, isn't it? That's out now, yeah. I mean, it's quite interesting because there have been some two or three, I think, really first-class true crime books. The Patrick Raddenkeith book, London Falling, which is terrific. But it's still the story of the death of a very young man. Exactly. And it's a terrible thing to say that it is a page-turner. And in one sense, you can say it's entertaining. But again, he never loses sight of the fact there is a dead young man some very bad people still out there and then likewise there was a i think it's called para 68 um a really terrific book about alain delon in the 60s the actor the actor alain delon one of his sort of friend-cum-bodyguard was found murdered this yukoslav guy and it turns into one of those kind of stories which involves mrs pompadour the you know the french prime minister's wife was she going to orgies where Alain Delon was at?

32:58It's one of those stories which... My God. I mean, it sounds a bit sensationist, but again, the author, whose name has gone straight out of my head. I can't remember. Murder in Paris 68, a true story of death and glamour. Edward Chisholm, who's a very talented youngish writer. He's younger than me anyway. He wrote a very good book called A Waiter in Paris, about his experiences as a waiter. But if you want to know about death and glamour in late 60s France, it's the one for you. It's the one for you. I tell you what, this has gone everywhere, but it's all been interesting. Now, this is a book that came out in the 80s.

33:36You've described it, I think, to my colleague Eve as a banger, which isn't normally a term that either Fiori would employ. It's Waterland by Graham Swift. Yeah, so this came out in 1983. Graham Swift, remember, won the Booker Prize for Last Order. This came out in 1983. and I've had it on my TBR pile, my TBR pile, for ages, sitting there because it's quite a big book. So I just picked it up yesterday and started reading 400 pages later. Still haven't quite got it. It's terrific. All human life is in there. It's got this kind of great swagger to it. It's like a Victorian novel. It says I'm going to be ever so slow and I'm going to digress.

34:13But you're going to come with me. Yeah, you're going to come with me because all of a sudden you didn't know you were interested about the draining of the fens. I didn't know, but I could be convinced. Or The Sex Lives of Eels. You didn't know you wanted to read about that. Still not sure about that. Yet it's there. It starts with a kind of a mystery story of a teacher in 1980, in Lewisham, a history teacher, who we know his wife has stolen a baby from a supermarket. She said God told her to do it. So we've got this mystery of him going back to his own past, when he was a small lad. A body was found in the canal.

34:55His father worked on the canals in the fens. So we've got all these different personal elements as well as, it's a very early 80s novel because all the pupils this man teaches are obsessed with the end of the world. Do you remember everyone was frightened of nuclear conflagration? So he's got all of these various themes and then let's digress and talk about the nature of curiosity, the nature of history. Should we know about the French Revolution? It's the past. So it's got lots of bits in it. It's got everything, yes. It's got everything in it. It does look chunky. It's nearly 490. OK. We're nearly there.

35:33Come on, we can't all have slim novellas. But if you're in the mood for a slightly slower, more Victorian-type novel... I've read the first sentence of Graham's first quarter. I'm in. When I've got more time, I'm going to read that. That sounds good. If you think that won't be for me, I'm not sure. I think you should give it a whirl. Yeah. Waterland by Graham Swift. Right. Now, something that I do think I'll love. He's a great writer, actually, Matthew Sweet. Oh, he's terrific. Now, he has written... You'll never guess who this book is about if I tell you the title. The title is called The Great Dictator.

36:07This book is out in September and it's about... It's about Barbara Cartland. I think that's absolutely brilliant. Now, I did have the pleasure of interviewing Barbara. Oh, well, do you know what? I was talking about Barbara Carton to the young 'uns in the office and they had no idea who she was. Oh, wow, that's... It's an age gap. So there's a blank, okay. The great romantic novelist. Yeah, I mean, she used to... Well, she's no longer with us. No, no. She lived in a very large establishment in Pershaw, in Worcestershire, for many years. And I was in local radio in that part of the world. So we could talk to Barbara.

36:44Not regularly, but it was possible. She only communicated by a telephonic device. And I think she was on her chaise longue when I talked to her. But I think Fee has also interviewed Barbara Garland. It's a shame she's not here. Although I do keep thinking she's here because I'm calling Eve Fee. So tell me, was she a nice person? No, I don't think so. Not particularly nice. I mean, it's a great punning title because obviously she wrote 723 books. On her chaise longue. On her chaise longue. But she didn't write a word of them. In the sense that she dictated everything, hence the title. It's a great title.

37:26So I think 750 million sales. Only Agatha Christie and William Shakespeare has passed that. So she's extraordinary. But the reason why he also calls her the great dictator is because she was like Stalin, you know, with tractor production. Well, she wasn't completely like Stalin. Well, she liked to boast about numbers, everything. So I've sold more this than that than anyone else. I've had more wedding proposals than anyone else. Apparently she said she'd had 49 proposals before she accepted proposals from her first husband. But sometimes she would forget her own numbers and it would go up to 56.

38:08So it was this kind of everything had to be. So she had the biggest who's who entry because it listed all of her books. Although she had to pay for that as well. Yes, of course, yeah. So it was all things, so everything was about, never mind the quality, look at the quantity. And the genius of Matthew Sweet is that he's picked her as a subject. She was ripe for this, wasn't she, actually? And I'm amazed nobody's done it before. Well, there has been earlier, but I think it helped that she was no longer around to sort of stop. Right, so he could really tell the truth. Yeah. I mean, it's like everything about her is curious, like her look.

38:41Obviously, um... Well, she looked like a pantomime dame. let's just be honest about it she said a mascara she used meltonian black shoe cream for her eyelashes because she thought mascara was too pliable i think he rather admires her kind of chutzpah i don't i mean he tries to take her writing seriously he said that in her lifetime she didn't really require her editors to take her work seriously it was just kind of another thing Do you remember the Little Britain sketches? I think it was Bubbles de Vieux. I can't remember the name. With this woman sitting on the chairs along eating chocolates.

39:22It's essentially Barbara Carlin. It's Babs. Who came to our attention again in the 80s because she was Princess Diana's step. Yes, so Rain Spencer, who was Barbara's daughter, was Diana's stepmother. That's right. Okay. They weren't invited to the wedding. No. The royal wedding in the 81. one it didn't stop Barbara giving us the benefit of her opinions but her opinions were quite fun so she would say kind of completely ludicrous things like uh of course uh men with amputated legs make the best lovers they're much more attentive and I just love anyone that can sort of with a straight face make these kind of uh big bold claims and maybe she's right I don't know Well, I can't say either.

40:10Write in. Well, we've certainly put some shout-outs to you today, and that's another one. Robbie, I cannot thank you enough, so I won't bother. That book, The Great Dictator by Matthew Sweet, is not out until September. I mean, I'm very keen indeed to get my hands on a copy. It's really funny. It's worth it. Thank you very much. Now, we must also, of course, address the important issue of England's chances in the Cup of the World. I bet you were up all night, weren't you? What's your take? Oh, yes. Norway is going to be a tough nut to crack, isn't it? Excellent, Robbie. Great assessment. Thank you very much indeed.

40:46Oh, yes. Over and out. See you tomorrow. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Disgraceful episode that was.

41:08Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.