Was the Duchess of Devonshire above chemical toilets? (with Xand van Tulleken)

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2:28do you know i stood i stood in front of my bookshelves i'm thinning them out at the moment and uh it's quite difficult to decide which ones to keep and which ones to get rid of and i feel because because you and i but you know we have interviewed quite a few people over the years and i've always tried to keep books of people that i've interviewed but i think there's come a time now where that's not feasible and i'm just not going to go back to to some of those ones again but the starting point for this conversation was you mentioning that alistair campbell has got another one out and i did look at his copy of winners which is uh deliciously signed And I thought, how am I keeping that?

3:14I don't know. Charity shops in the very posh part of East London, where you live, area. I think they're going to be getting a copy of that, aren't they? Do you think? Yes, I do. I always wondered whether it would follow it up with Alastair Campbell's Losers. Losers, well, yes. Well, I don't know, but his new book is out in a... Why am I talking about this? I don't know. What's his book about? I don't know, he hasn't said. Oh, OK. Nor has he told us the title. Right, so there we are. It would be lovely, wouldn't it, if he'd completely diversified into maybe Alistair Campbell's Guide to Autumn Fashion.

3:43Or his Guide to Housework, because I think he quite famously has declared that he's never done anything. Well, that would be a slim tome then, wouldn't it? He wrote a couple of semi-pornographic novels, didn't he? Well, he used to work for a porn mag, didn't he? So I don't know whether he just wrote long-form erotic essays. I think that was more what he did. OK, but then he did bring a couple of novels out when he left politics. one of them I think called Maya which I remember reading I think probably ahead of an interview with him too so we've covered him let's move on quick it's a phrase I never thought I'd say we've covered Alastair Campbell let's just talk about double entendres in a childish way and bring in Debbie who's a long time listener and will be in Cheltenham now in Cheltenham that's great it'll be good to see you there that is in a couple of weeks we do look forward to going to the Cheltenham Literature Festival it's always very lovely just to visit Cheltenham.

4:39It's a beautiful town. Oh, it's fantastic. And even, we don't usually get a chance because we're bombing in and out to go to lots of the other things. Bombing, not bombing in and out. Available. But I often feel that I've dusted myself with an intellectual rigour just by being there. I think so. There's just something about, it's a very dignified little town with a lot going on and some very, very interesting people and some wonderful retail opportunities. And we are there because we're interviewing Annika Rice about her autobiography challenge. I just think that would be fun. It would be brilliant.

5:13She is fun. So please do. If you can get down there, we'd love to see you. Debbie is catching up with the podcast from a sun lounger in Demetria. Never heard of that, but it's on roads. How wonderful. Jane recently talked about a road in Malvern with a silly name. She couldn't remember the name. Well, it was Horny Old Road. How could you have forgotten that? It did remind me of a recent journey I made to collect some garden furniture. I live in Solihull. and needed to take a 40-minute journey to Cradley Heath. So I set the sat-nav and laughed out loud on both the journey there and back when I was directed to turn left into Bellend.

5:50Is that for real? It's the Midlands, so quite possibly. Oh, dear. Right, OK. I did have a good chuckle with you both about Brian Johnston and his weighted blanket. No intellectual debate in my email, just schoolgirl humour, says Debbie. Oh, that's all right. It's very welcome. Absolutely fine. Very, very welcome. Don't worry about it. Emma joins us from Rutland. Now, Emma has completely and utterly changed my mind about the music of Neil Diamond. Yeah, I'm afraid I can't unknow this now. No, this is really, it's just really disturbing, actually, Emma. So what do we do with this? I'm not sure this can be read out.

6:28Well, we're going to. That's us. But I agree, Fee. Neil Diamond was utterly brilliant in concert but caused much ridicule for me when I saw him at Earl's Court about 25 years ago, when I was only 25. And the average concert goer was probably my age now, but seems so old, as did he at 60. However, now this is an enormous however, there was one very disconcerting moment when he invited women to come up to his kissing booth, which involved him sitting on the front of the stage, snogging women who raced forward. He asked one if she had a partner and she said he was with her in the audience to which Neil Diamond announced, she's ready for you now.

7:09It absolutely grossed me out, but I do still love his iconic tunes. It's just so difficult, Emma. I'm just not going to be able to listen to him in the same way. Crackling Rosie. Oh, dear. How many years ago was that? Crackling Rose. It's about wine. Oh, is it? Right. I thought it was about our executive producer. 24, 25 years ago. About 25 years ago. Oh, just... don't just kneel don't do it why do you need to do that people really love your music anyway why do you need to do that that's very unhygienic and it's very wrong so uh emma let's hold hands together and maybe we'll be able to get through it and we do know that there's some pretty nefarious activity that still goes on in the world of the rock and rollers that seems to just be a given that sexual attraction that seems to go with being on stage and virile and whatever.

8:08I mean, I don't think Florence is, you know, standing outside her dressing room waiting for a long line of young men to join her after a set at the Reading Festival. It's really interesting. Dolly Parton didn't have, you know, a great big line-up of ripped young men, you know, who later in life slightly regretted what they'd done. It's just so weird, Jane, but Neil, Don't. Close down the kissing booth. It's something about, is it something about the stance of a young, and let's say it is a young man, although we know that these bands, these all-male combos go on for decades, don't they? Something about the stance of the man with his guitar and the way he stands and that whole, I've got my instrument in my hand and I'm going to...

8:51Fiddle with it. Strum it. I was going to say fiddle with it. What is that all about? And look, we should say there are plenty of willing female participants in all this. Absolutely there are. And we're not suggesting... Well, I mean, none of these women who are going to, you know, who are running up on the stage to the kissing room, they weren't being made to do anything. No, absolutely not. You're too young, but there was this amazing TV show, Cookie Show, Cookery Show, when I was a girl, called The Galloping Gourmet. Oh, do you remember? I used to love... He was called Graham something, Graham Kerr, I think.

9:24and at the end of when he'd created a meal really very quickly and at the end of the show a lady from the audience could join him on stage and eat the meal and I remember as I must have been well below my teens I used to love it I used to think oh how wonderful to be invited up to share a meal with Graham I think for me I was stunned that a man could cook because it didn't happen in our house and it didn't happen in any other household I knew but here was Graham just magically conjuring up this amazing fair and then I think they had like flowers on the table and it just seemed like a glimpse of the future.

10:00I thought, wonderful. I can't wait to be a part of a life. But he didn't, he wasn't snogging them or whatever. No suggestion of that, no. But a willing lady from the audience was invited to be a part of his greatness at the end and as a child, far from being outraged by it, I thought it was tremendous. I just thought, wow, great. Yeah. Well, I mean, they were different times, but this isn't particularly different times. It's not that long ago. Emma from Rutland. Can we just go back to her email? Because it was plenty in there. Yeah, there's plenty in there. It was very beautifully done. It was separated into very neat paragraphs.

10:33There's one about boarding school. I can only ever remember wishing I could go away to boarding school imagining St Trinian's. Finally, my parents allowed me to go for sixth form and I absolutely adored it, made brilliant friends and did activities I've never had the opportunity to do since. I appreciated and made the most of every moment. However, a number of girls loathed it and were deeply unhappy. And I also believe that many of the boys who had boarded since they were tiny tended to have overinflated egos, a lack of awareness or appreciation for the real world and a strong sense of entitlement.

11:06And I haven't seen much change in over 30 years. There is also a piece about Liverpool versus Manchester. Would you like me to read parts of this to you? Well, I just want to say thank you very much for your very positive thoughts. Actually, what she says is that she had a great visit to Liverpool generally and the cab drivers were particularly good with her elderly dad. And I just want to echo that because whenever I've taken my dad anywhere in a cab in Liverpool or around the suburb where he lives, they're brilliant, they're really helpful, helping him in and out for hospital appointments and stuff.

11:36So you're absolutely right about that. And Liverpool Anglican Cathedral is so well worth a visit. It's just incredible. and don't worry Emma because you haven't started something off again no no because we will just we'll be able to rest it it would go off again if you had said that Manchester was better than Liverpool in which case we'd be here for hours we would be here for hours you've landed on the right side there yeah I haven't been to Manchester Cathedral but I'm sure there is one okay lucky Manchester might get a visit on the boarding school thing um there is a thing in the therapy world of boarding school syndrome that is very well recognized and i just throw that in there because i know that we've got quite a few therapists and counselors who listen to this podcast uh i don't want i'm not having a downer on boarding schools at all but it's a it's quite a strangely british thing and some of the stuff that went down in boarding schools of yore is truly disturbing actually it's a proper proper stain on the establishment actually for looking the other way.

12:40So we are interested to hear all kinds of stories. But Emma from Rutland, I'm delighted you had a lovely sixth form. No, that is good. And I can imagine the sixth form is really, really very, very different from going away at nine or seven in some cases. But yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. There was this idea that, yes, I had a terrible time at my boarding school, so I'm going to send my son. Yes, keep it in the family. Why? That was a thing. But I mean, I'm with V. We're not saying all boarding school experiences are terrible. Clearly, that isn't true. Mental load has proved to be quite interesting.

13:13And thank you for your thoughts on this. This is from somebody who wants to be anonymous. On the point of mental load, where the correspondent noted that her sister-in-law has chosen to opt out of organising for her husband's family. I've got to say, I did feel a small pang of panic, as that describes mine and my husband's set up. Am I the sister-in-law, writes Anonymous. When we first got together, I found myself organising all of the events, the presents, keeping contact, etc. with both my family and his. However, he wasn't stressing about what to get any of my relatives for Christmas, nor was he doing any organising for any gatherings with my side.

13:51Why? Because there is absolutely no obligation for men to fulfil these roles. After a couple of years, I told him I'd just had enough without adding his family into my mix. Don't get me wrong, I like them, but it's unfair for me to carry double the mental load here simply because of society's expectations of women. This has meant some Christmases where gift-giving has been poor and I've had to sit awkwardly while his mother has been gifted something from the middle of little. Has this meant that birthdays have been forgotten? Yes. Has this meant a few more barbed comments to me from his dad's wife?

14:32Yes. But she says, I've just got to make peace with it. It's on him. It's not on me. My side of things runs very smoothly. Gift giving is thoughtful and never last minute. Birthdays are remembered. Barbed comments are still to be found, but that's families, I suppose. both my husband and I work full-time why should I get another full-time unpaid job while he can relax and just show up right I can feel a lot of people nodding in appreciation of that email I'm afraid it is still true it's that expectation that women will just do it anyway but let's um let's try and be more more positive about it because overwhelmingly the stories that we have heard are from people of our generation aren't they where we've just been expected to take on all of these things and i hate that fact that this correspondent has been on the receiving end of criticism from her partner's family yeah for not fulfilling their expectations of her not necessarily her partner's expectations of her their expectations of her just back off father-in-law back off or mother-in-law there needs to be sisterly solidarity yeah no very much so but there sometimes isn't but let's but let's just really really mark our own cards about what we're going to expect in the future and if if there is ever a tut that we feel coming our way because it'll be us won't it who are left out of the equation uh by our well it won't be you actually it might it may well be if my son's partner decides she can't be asked to remember my birthday I'm not going to toss in her direction.

16:13That's what we need to keep in our heads when we're discussing this. I mean, I wouldn't put it past either of my daughters to forget my birthday. I'll body brain them if they ever do. But anyway. Yeah, but you won't have that experience of a woman coming into your family. Well, not the term we're aware of, no. But hey, listen, everything, you know, you never know. It's all fluid. Well, I didn't know that it was fluid. No, well, it's not, but it could be. Right, OK. I'd be just as delighted to have a daughter-in-law as a son-in-law should either of those two things ever come to pass. Right, I feel this has suddenly got way more complicated than it was intended to.

16:48I thought we were on the precipice there of something absolutely massive. But you're right, like a Boy Scout, be prepared. Be prepared, and as a proud feminist, I would be more than happy to have a lesbian daughter. That's all I'm saying. You've covered all bases, darling. Have I covered everything? You've covered all bases. I've gone, I've tried. I absolutely have. I've really tried. Actually, on that note, Rachel says, I found that conversation between Amy and Kirsten in vigil about their domestic centre. Oh, it was ridiculous. I mean, they're in a real crisis on this Arctic, or was it Antarctic base?

17:21Arctic base. Right. And I mean, there were people on ATVs. Do you know what that is? I have to really think about it. No, I'm sorry, I don't. All-terrain vehicles. Oh, yes. And they had guns, massive rifles. There's no time to start arguing about your relationship. They had handguns as well. It was absolutely freezing. saying there was no heating in the satellite centre. There didn't appear to be more than a couple of blankets. There wasn't even an emergency biscuit tin going down. And they took that as the time at which... And also they were trying to protect somebody from being killed by either the Russians, the Norwegians, the British, the Chinese...

17:53Don't forget the Russians. Or, I don't know, any other member of the Arctic community. And, yeah, they discussed the mental load. Yeah. Well, anyway, Rachel says she just found it really bizarre. You wanted to hear about relationships in the gay community and sharing the load. Well, I often get this question as a gay woman. When we first got together about 17 years ago, we did share jobs. It was a standing joke. I did inside jobs. She did outside jobs. However, my wife got a promotion, which meant I took on more. Having said that, she was very aware that I took on more and made a conscious effort to help.

18:27Whoever was free or less busy walked the dog or did the washing. Whoever didn't need to catch up on work at the weekend did the shopping. It was a genuine team effort. Sounds marvellous, doesn't it? However, my wife retired in February and as a result has taken on the lion's share, but we're still a team. This evening, while listening to the podcast, I have washed up, etc., as my wife was apparently exhausted from her day-making soup. Well, it can be tiring. It can be, because there's a lot of standing up involved and chopping. Rachel, thank you very much. That ends this party political broadcast on behalf of the lesbian community.

19:00But you did a good job there. That was good. That made it sound like a real possibility of a version of equality that you may not necessarily get in heteronormative relationships. I love the way that everybody, well, I mean, if you've got an open mind, everybody is learning things from a better conversation about same-sex relationships because it definitely throws into question some of the accepted norms that have been... Yeah, you've got to think about it. ...in the heterosexual community for a very long time. So we always, always, always welcome them. I'm going to stick with Vedge, you're right, till the very end, Jane.

19:38Are you? Yes, I am. Just in order to just find out what the bloody hell is going on. I might watch the final episode to find out what happens, particularly about how they're sharing the mental load. Yeah, very much. I want to see what happens when they get back home. I really want to make sure that the kiddies are all right, because they've just been left with Granny, and Granny doesn't appear to actually be a person. We don't know. We've never seen it. I mean, she could be working for the Russians, the Chinese, the Norwegians. We don't know. I mean, whether or not she has access to an all-terrain vehicle, we don't know that either.

20:08But the moment at which it's all suddenly revealed, which usually in a thriller is an incredibly satisfying moment, isn't it? I think actually for many of us who are watching Villager Series 3, it will just be an overwhelming sense of relief. It's so good. And I don't think I'm going to understand it any better by the time I get to the end of it. The actors in it are fantastic. It's just a bewildering premise. Well, there's someone from Shetland in there as well, isn't there? That slightly bamboozled me, the young chap. Yeah, that can be very confusing, can't it? But I did start season three of Colin from Accounts last night.

20:45It's glorious, isn't it? And it's genuinely funny. Why can't more programmes be that funny? I don't want to use the word quirky, because it's not really good enough, but there is a quirk element to Colin from Accounts that really works. Plus, I love the 30-minute episodes. Somehow it's just enough. It's like a really tasty starter. I had a lovely starter over the weekend. I wouldn't mind if it was 45 minutes, actually. I find 30 minutes a little bit slim. But do you know what? I really like the way that they talk about sex in Colin from accounts. There was that funny penile... What was it? It's a very funny bit where he turns off.

21:26Anyway, you have to watch it. It's a questionnaire, isn't it? that he's being asked to answer. A kind of work experience GP. Yeah, and it's about your recent sexual history and it's receptive penile something or other or intrusive penile something or other. But it is very funny. And also the mother character, so Ashley's mother. Yes, who's running these workshops. Is it Lynette? who's running these workshops where men have to stand up and say, I am the man of the house, and she is a man's rights campaigner, and it's so brilliant, Jane. It's very funny. It's extremely funny. It's really, really clever.

22:11I hope it's as loved in Australia as it is here. Oh, I think it is. I think it is. Although he's getting a bit too big for it all, I think, the main... Patrick Bramall. Because he's in some Apple show that's coming out as well. Yeah. He's everywhere. I can't watch that until I'm over Colin from accounts, because that's very confusing. This is actually, we'll stop talking about mental load in a minute, but this is from Anonymous. And I'll just put this out there and see if anybody else wants to come in on it. She's talking about how her children have matured. I'm paraphrasing. Her children are sort of now in their 20s.

22:42And one thing I hadn't anticipated, because this is somebody who did do the majority of the child rearing, is the emotional effect on me as our children transition into adulthood. It's having much more of an impact on me than my husband. I'm happy to see them develop and relieved on so many occasions that the often exhausting drain of just seeing to the kids is more or less in the past. But it has left a kind of emptiness, me questioning what now? I'm not looking for things to keep me busy. Please don't suggest a wild swimming group. We weren't going to, were we?

23:16OK. I suppose I just wanted to say out loud that I'm just a bit sad and I sometimes feel a bit lost because I was responsible for something really important for so many years. And now I feel it's more or less over. Oh, by the way, it's not over. It's never over, is it? Once you've got them, I mean, you know, hopefully, God forbid anything terrible should happen, they're going to be there until you're gone. And so it's never over. But I completely understand where our correspondent is coming from because it does feel like you've been made redundant from a job. It definitely, definitely does. That kind of satisfaction of somebody needing something from you and you providing it to the best of your ability, I think when that goes in any form in your life, it is tricky.

24:08And I hear what you say, your kids will always need you. And in a sense, now when they need you in adult life, they really need you and it'll be for something big and you will have to be prepared to use what has turned out to be the motif of this podcast episode. But I really hear you on that, just the kind of the daily pull. I think it is like losing a job. Well, do chip in on this if you have anything to say about it. It's janeandfee at times.radio. I know we're at that turn of the year with young people going off to uni and things where people, I say people, parents, if you are a parent, you do start to think about what the future might be like.

24:50Definitely. And in fact, I found myself this morning, Jane, in about quarter class seven, very willingly and very lovingly hemming a shirt. And in previous years, there would have been a little bit of a... about it. Yes, but now, because it's presented to me as a task that makes me feel fulfilled in my life, I really save it every second. I love it. I love it when the nippers come to you and we can actually do something for them. Yes, because sometimes, I mean, increasingly, I'm having to ask them, how do I do this? What do I do? That comes upon you much quicker than you think, doesn't it? Well, you're asking them.

25:24Oh, Lord. Our guest today, by the way, you'll be interested in this, you will be, is Dr. Zand van Tulleken. And he is someone with some strong views on wellness and particularly supplements. And Janice Turner interviewed him for The Times over the weekend. You can still read the article on thetimes.com. It's very interesting. Actually, it was yesterday. Forgive me, not the weekend. um and he he she goes through all the um supplements she's taking and he basically just says the cobblers i mean she mentions the fizzy vitamin c plus zinc tablets that her husband this is janice's husband believes wards off colds well i swear by that stuff and apparently it's just a load of nonsense you don't need it at all expensive weed it's very and vibrant urine results.

26:13But weirdly, I mean, maybe it's a placebo. I never feel worse after I've had one of those. But basically, he's taking apart the wellness industry, and it is industry. It's worth billions. Supplements are so expensive, and they're widely advertised by some hugely famous people. And actually, Dr. Zand himself reveals that he was paid a juicy sum of money to promote something. He hasn't done it since. He wouldn't do it again. but if you are a medical person you know you're you're very much in vogue to promote this stuff and some of it is not only not helpful it could be harmful avoid anyway listen to him he speaks sense i'm looking forward to hearing from him enormously there's so much cloth being pulled over our eyes isn't there about that so you know you'll see somebody dressed up in scrubs telling you about the value of various procedures and all of that kind of stuff and i'm so bedazzled by that setting i immediately listen far more closely to whatever it is that's being delivered to me and it says underneath dr so-and-so well a that might be an ai generated film b you and i can be called doctors because we've got honorary doctorates it doesn't mean that we're doctors with the knowledge of the human body, does it?

27:34Well, no. And also, it just, I mean, who's going to bother to track that person down and check their credentials and all of that kind of stuff? It's just, honestly, it's just the money involved. I hadn't realised, I mean, Janice says in this article, the British supplement, the annual UK supplement market, is worth£3.6 billion. Yeah, well, that doesn't surprise me at all, Jane. I mean, there are high street shops, all they sell are supplements. Supplements, yeah, that's true. And you just think, well, everybody else on the high street's flailing around and shutting up shop. Yeah. But, you know, these ones are doing mega, mega, mega business.

28:07And, I mean, actually, on, you know, where we started with whether or not to chuck out Alistair Campbell's winners, I tell you what, if somebody would like Alistair Campbell's winners, which is a signed copy, it's a very interesting book, it's about people who've succeeded in the world, I'm very happy to send it to them. I was also looking through our shelves in the bathroom and I mean I've fallen for it myself I've got some hair thickening vitamin supplements that I think I spent a bloody fortune on when my hair thinned quite dramatically after I can't remember which baby arrived as is often the case you know you get this you get the hair of two people during pregnancy yeah and then when it falls out it falls out a lot and i got very worried about it then so i bought so you know they're nearly 20 years old so uh but but you think that you're a sentient person and capable of distinguishing what you should and shouldn't have but the way that we're sold these things is mesmerizing and we've all got them we've all got them in our cabinets they're very very clever these people they really are just on that topic actually can we do uh can we set uh our listeners a tiny and very fun challenge about finding the oldest tub yes i've got it here pseudocrine brilliant okay go for it uh welcome susie and you slightly barked at me there i've got it susie joins from north yorkshire we're just going to be over here having a little sip of my coffee should we have a little think about north yorkshire there we are we've all we've all picture to where Susie is.

29:46My Sudocreme. It is creme, isn't it? Yes. Yes. But it is a cream. I've never understood why. Anyway, whatever. My Sudocreme went out of date in the August of 2003. Absolutely brilliant. I'm still using it, boast Susie. I moved house last year, so I cleared out my larder. The oldest used before date was 1994. What was that for? We'd love to know. Did you eat? Did you eat the product? What is the oldest your listeners have? Well, that's absolutely fascinating. We'll punt that out there if you do have a really... I think it's all very well setting the challenge. You have to have told us that you've eaten it or used it.

30:31I mean, Sudocreme, because it's not eaten, it's dabbed on... It's very good with burns, really is actually, and nappy rash and other skin inflammations. It can't do any real harm if it's out of date. Presumably it won't do much good if it's out of date, but I can't see how it could do any harm. Well, why don't you pop that as your end question to Dr Zand. Let's make the most of him here. He's not a GP. It's not like you can only come to him with one problem. Which you have to talk about in less than eight minutes. Yes. It just seems so strange. but also I would like to know from anybody who's actually finished a whole tub of pseudocram I would have thought that would be almost impossible I don't think anybody has no, unless you have 19 children I suppose you might get through it for nappy rash some of the tubs are so big oh well that could be handed down turbo tubs the size of a wheelie bin

31:31anyway Eve, we haven't neglected her Oh, my God. Eve, yes, Eve's up on the Instagram. You can see a picture of her looking really, really beautiful with the obviously captivated, captivated Bill Nye. And it's followed by the picture of Rosie and Rod Stewart, which has got the title, Lest We Forget, which implies Rod's died. But he hasn't, as of this podcast. He has not, but I just, we shouldn't forget that Rosie didn't. Yes, she did. But it's just, it's a phrase more often used at somebody's passing. I hadn't even considered that. It's unfortunate. But it's great because, you know, there'll come a time.

32:16I shouldn't say that. No, Fee, what have you started? Well, he's now immortalised on Instagram. Oh my God, don't use words like immortalised. No, he'll be immortal in my heart. I think we'll just head briefly to one of our most wonderful stately homes, that's Chatsworth again. On a visit to Chatsworth, writes Anonymous, with my outspoken mother, imagine Jane Horrocks and Prunella Scales, right, we took an additional tour of the Duchess of Devonshire's private quarters. A small group, for some reason that sounds rather rude, I didn't say that. I'm not intent to do it. A small group of us were taken to a different part of the house, eventually coming to a large room.

32:55The guide then reverentially told us that her grace stayed in this actual room when in residence. Wow. My mother then announced, Crikey, if I were her, I wouldn't want to stay here. She hasn't even got a flipping en suite. A freezing silence hit the tour party and the guide also went entirely silent. I grabbed my mother quickly and bundled her off to the tea room where she complained about the Earl Grey not being strong enough. Cheers, says Anonymous. Thank you for that beguiling tale of your dear mother's trip to Chatsworth, where she made not very much of the fact that the Duchess doesn't have access to an ensuite.

33:35I will have to say I'm surprised. I would have expected the Duchess of Devonshire to have an ensuite at Chatsworth. Well, I don't know. In those stately homes, the plumbing's notorious, isn't it? There'll only be one WC down a long gallery and past 17 map rooms and across the boot room, and then it's just a pot anyway. Oh, perhaps a plumber could explain why it might be difficult to install an en suite in a stately home. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I would imagine it's almost impossible because you need one of those great big soil pipes, don't you? And they only ever go on one side of a house. Is that right?

34:08Yes. If your plumbing's on the left side of your house, then you're absolutely stuffed if you want your bathroom on the right. Well, this is what I've been informed by a very well-known post-coded plumbing merchant. I hope it's not misinformation if it is once again I'm learning from you I did not know that please other plumbing experts make contact yes please do we need to know that otherwise you have to end up with one of those macerators and I don't think the Duchess of Devonshire would have wanted a chemical toilet I'm just putting it out there inside her bedroom it's unlikely isn't it with that little and that's a little sign saying no sanitary product.

34:56I think it's unlikely. I mean, I'm sure, I can't picture the lady, I don't even know if she's still with us, but we wish her the very, very best. Should she be listening? Unlikely. Right, as for Earl Grey not being strong enough. Oh, it never is. It's disgusting. Never is. It's avoidable. Please avoid Earl Grey. I honestly I think it's one of the most dangerous of substances perfumed tosh, don't go near it

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37:29well we've taken an unexpected um diversion um down an alleyway that is inhabited by a meandering conversation about the Duchess of Devonshire's toilet arrangements which I I you know I don't think any other podcast will be discussing that today but I could be wrong if you hear this elsewhere never knowingly under what's it we're just like them let us know jane and fiat times dot radio. Let's bring in our guest. My glasses have steamed up, so it must be time to welcome Dr. Zand van Tulleken. I was already deep in conversation. We were, I don't know, it's a shame this has to be live. Couldn't you just be my private consultant for the next half of that?

38:10It always changes when the microphone comes on. I try not to make it change too much. Dr. Zand van Tulleken is here, author of Make Me Well, A Quest to Understand the Confusing World of wellness. I think on the back, the blurb says it's the wild west of wellness. You are an author, you're a broadcaster, just set out your medical credentials. We've just been talking about scientists and trust. We need to know, are you qualified, Zand? I try not to begin sentences with a sort of as a doctor, because I think it can be annoying, frankly. But in this case, I think that credentials are important. So I trained at Oxford.

38:43And the reason to say that is it's a very academic medical school. And so we were really schooled in the scientific literature. And then I did a master's in public health at Harvard, again, a very academic place. And so I've been a broadcaster for 20 years. I spent 10 years doing acute medicine in the NHS. I'm an honorary associate professor at University College London. So I am familiar with reading and digesting the scientific commentary and the sort of evidence on wellness. And yet I found myself, I'm 48, I want to be well. I was very confused and I could not answer the questions. Right. I want to get rid of all that confusion.

39:19Is the whole thing, the whole supplement thing, is it just a massive con job? So I feel like it is a very confusing place because you don't expect it to be a con job. And 20 years ago, you could have looked at, you know, there are all kinds of cranky things going on. You could say, well, this is obviously a con. You know, that person does not look. But now the wellness is sold to us by people from really good universities who are doctors and scientists. And often they have papers in good medical journals to back up what they're saying. So I don't, the first thing I would say is no one should feel gullible, foolish.

39:52If they've got swept up in this, so did I. I found it all very persuasive. But it took me three years to write the book. And at the end of it, I basically would say I can save you a lot of money. And I think more importantly, I can save you confusion, anxiety and headspace for the things you want to do. Because the wellness industry, as you see it on the socials, is pretty much selling stuff that I would say is dangerous and does not work. OK, so not only does it not work, it might be doing you harm. That's the really important bit, isn't it? The harms are, there are very many different kinds of harms.

40:24So in Make Me Well, I look at supplements, wearable tech and testing. Those are the things that really look and feel very scientific. And if we take the supplements, the supplements can do you harm. For instance, the menopause supplement Black Cohosh, our medicines regulator has said it should have a health warning on it. And yet there is no health warning on it. It's associated with liver damage, drug interactions. in some cases something like turmeric is associated with fatal liver damage these things are unusual but turmeric is very very popular so the substances can do you physical harm even in subtle ways large doses of vitamin d can be dangerous everyone takes vitamin d everyone takes vitamin d which is why we have to worry about these things so the things can harm you but also many supplements are adulterated.

41:09I went to China to commission some supplements to be made as a buyer. I stood on the factory floor watching them being made. And I was nervous to say, like, could you adulterate these? Like, I'm not good at these sort of awkward questions. And I eventually said, does what's in the bottle, does it have to match what's on the label? Could we cut some corners? And he got annoyed with me and he said, what are you talking about? You're not listening. And he took the bottle off the production line and showed it to me. And in huge letters on the label, it said made in USA. I couldn't believe that. Yeah, it's amazing.

41:39So there is fraud. And the adulterants can be dangerous as well. Turmeric is adulterated with lead oxide, which is not a safe thing to be eating. Adulteration, contamination, fraudulent stuff and the real thing can be dangerous. And that is just scratching the surface of arms. Right. When did our obsession with so-called wellness begin? I think that there are two different kinds of wellness. taking money from people in return for a sort of promise of longer life and better health is a very old game right you can be selling snake oil in the wild west and and back through history and there isn't i think there is there is animals in a way you could say take supplements they go to salt licks they eat particular plants when they're not well um in most of human history herbal medicines medicines love potions supplements these things have all been wrapped up together but wellness emerges as distinct from health in the 20th century where we go right there's something about health health is sort of evidence-based the chasing of very particular measurable things blood pressure cholesterol and wellness is everything else that you might want to feel in your body that your gp isn't going to help you with so it might be your park run time it might be running a 5k it might be feeling good or having a glow from your skin and if you go to your gp not unreasonably your gp will say look i can't help you with the glow you know but i can measure your cholesterol so wellness is that stuff and it has become charged over the last 20 years because you can sell it with science and because we all want more from our bodies we all want to be sort of well we actually feel we're entitled to it weirdly i think that's right i think that's right and i think social media i did not want to write a book that just said social media is to blame for everything but social media has been a big force in changing what we ask for from our bodies and our lives, just like television was.

43:24Yeah. OK. Let's talk about wearable tech. You mentioned it. The watches that tell you how well you slept. Now, I mean, you should know yourself how well you've slept, shouldn't you? So for the book I interviewed, I would say that one of the greatest sleep scientists in the world, Russell Foster. And in the end, I would say, if you want to know about sleep, buy Russell's book. I did not write a chapter on sleep because there's just so much to say. But essentially, the core bit of wisdom is trust your body, not your wearable. The sleep score is a guess. The thing is not measuring if you're asleep.

43:54So I'm not anti-wearable tech. Wearable tech can be great. If you want to go for a run and see if you went for a run and record that run, wearable tech's great. If you're a cyclist, all fantastic stuff. I wear a heart rate monitor when I do my exercise. No problem at all. But I think it can be dangerous when it starts to look like it's interfering with your health. And the most dangerous wearable tech gadget, I would say, is the continuous glucose monitor. Lifesaving if you have diabetes. But the number of companies and influencers that are selling this piece of medical technology to healthy people to measure their blood glucose, that will take you down a road that will be bad for you in many ways.

44:29OK, we went round the table in the office earlier on, just me and my colleagues. Oh, this is good. OK. Most of them are women in their 20s. Vitamin C and zinc was taken by just about everybody. Iron, because we have a vegetarian colleague, she felt she needed iron and supplement and B12. everyone was on vitamin d and we all routinely take that fizzy orange drink i take it for hangovers and just on days when i feel less than optimum and we've got a question here from andrew what about cod liver oil so let's shall we start knock off cod liver oil first of all well cod liver oil and vitamin d overlap so the dose of vitamin d that the nhs recommends 400 international units is the same as a teaspoonful of cod liver oil and we've got to begin cod liver oil uh when i was writing make me well vitamin d was the hardest chapter to write because it went against what i've said on the television for 20 years my whole medical education vitamin d there was so much excitement my grandfather had rickets vitamin d deficiency from his his wartime childhood he had a lifetime of bow-legged which caused caused caused him problems so vitamin d is real and we do need it and the nhs advice is very good but vitamin d is sold to us with a promise of being the sunshine vitamin it's good for your muscles it's good for your brain it's good for your mood it's good for your heart your risk of cancer and all of that came out of science that was done while i was at medical school in the early 2000s that said yeah take a group of ill people and you will find they have low vitamin d and so maybe if we can top them up it'll fix all those problems over the last 20 years about a billion dollars was spent studying vitamin d by scientists who we everyone wanted it to work it's not grumpy skeptical doctors we all wanted vitamin d to work and the trials all said it will prevent rickets some people should take it follow the nhs guidelines a low dose but the big doses are dangerous and it will do nothing for you other than prevent okay i mean the truth is the people who really could benefit they're not hearing the messages it is totally it is a real tragedy that the people who are taking the vitamin d almost definitely don't need it and the we have a few deaths every year from low vitamin d in this country and in breastfed children um and we have some cases of rickets and some adult vitamin d deficiency those people really need it invariably they are not taking the supplement i don't i mean people get very exercised by breastfeeding i understand it did you imply that a baby being breast exclusively breastfed that is the nhs guidelines is that if you're exclusively breastfed you are at higher risk of vitamin d deficiency and so both the mother and the baby should be taking vitamin d so this is not breastfeeding you should feed your child however you want i cannot emphasize that a fed child is great.

47:03I'm thrilled. But that is the NHS guidelines, which I think are good. But all you're doing, you're not going to make them grow big and strong and win at the Olympics. You're just going to stop them getting rickets and vitamin D deficiency. What about magnesium? Ask Jamie. Magnesium, wildly popular. In fact, when I started writing Make Me Well, I thought, oh, this is, you know, I said to my wife, what do we have in the house? Like I was sort of, what are we using? And she said, well, there's two kilos of magnesium in the bathroom. And I Why do we have that? This massive bag of magnesium. I've no idea where it came from.

47:32So magnesium is extremely popular. It's sold for sleep, for muscle cramps, for a wide variety of things. And again, the wellness industry is brilliant at picking something that we do need. You have to eat some magnesium. And it can be very important for your health. So when I had a heart condition and my heart was not working properly, I was treated with magnesium. But the vast majority of people do not need any magnesium supplements. And if you take high doses of it, you can cause yourself serious medical problems. So I would say there is certainly no evidence that anyone should be taking it.

48:02And I would be very cautious about taking it. Right. I'm getting lots of questions. Oh, goodness. OK, here we go. Neil says everyone is talking about creatine and collagen. Are they a waste of money? Oh, that's such a good question. So very different, actually. So collagen. I went to a factory in China where they boil 1.2 million donkeys a year. Just tell people what collagen is. Oh, sorry. Okay. So before that was to make collagen supplements. Collagen is the most common protein in your body. It's in every animal and it holds our bodies together. It's cartilage, it's in your skin, it is the structural protein, it holds our organs together.

48:38So it's very important and it gets worse as we get older. So your wrinkles, your joint pain, you know, everything that you feel about aging, a lot of that is due to your collagen getting worse. So eating a bit of collagen makes sense. That's what the industry is selling you. And there is some science to say it works what's the link to donkeys and so so in china the most luxurious expensive collagen supplement is made um with donkey skin and uh there aren't enough donkeys in china and so they are uh so there's been a huge international scandal where donkeys from africa have been taken to china um donkey skins have been taken from africa which causes massive problems for farmers in africa so this is all a part of the collagen story but the big the big collagen story is the The collagen we buy in the supermarket is essentially industrial waste.

49:22That if you run an abattoir, when you're left with the hooves, the claws and the skins, you boil it up, you make collagen. It costs 15 quid a kilo if you buy it as a commodity, as a wholesale. And by the time you get it on the high street, it is 300 pounds a kilo. So if you want collagen, I would say the evidence is if you take away the industry funded studies, it doesn't work. If you want to take collagen, you feel it works for you. Make some chicken stock. Make some beef broth. That's exactly the same stuff. It will cost you no money at all. It'll be sustainable and be better for you. I want to talk about the menopause because I know lots of our listeners are interested in that.

49:54But let's just briefly mention testosterone because this is, I mean, you ponder at one point in the book about the genuine impact high testosterone doses might be having. I mean, it's not overstating it, on the world order. So it's a very interesting, yeah, I know when you say it like that. So testosterone is the thing that I'm marketed most. I'm a 48-year-old man, and the symptoms of low testosterone are, you know, tiredness, lack of energy, loss of muscles, low sex drive, lack of sleep, all these things. And I, you know, on any given day, I could tick a few of those boxes. And it is heavily marketed, as anyone who's gone on the London Underground knows.

50:35And I went down the journey of getting the tests, being recommended the stuff, almost being sold it. And then I went and interviewed some real expert endocrinologists who essentially said, you can have it if you want it, but it will not do the things that is promised. You will become dependent on it. It will ruin your fertility and it will not give you these benefits. The main benefit is is libido and sexual function. And it works for a small number of men for that. So, yeah, testosterone was an area where I was particularly targeted. I felt particularly vulnerable. And the evidence that this is useful for large numbers of people is very, very minimal.

51:11But your question's about the world order. If you take lots of testosterone, it does seem to affect your mood, your attitude, and possibly even your politics. So there is this suggestion that as more and more men get their testosterone prescriptions and take large doses in order to get more muscles, these doses are dangerous. They're not the doses we should be taking. It will affect their mood. If you're in a workplace with lots of people taking testosterone, I would be like, I think the atmosphere is going to change. I don't have any proof that that's the case, but I think it's a reasonable concern.

51:42And I'm not the only person who's raised it. OK, so many questions. I want to do justice to them. But Rob says you skipped over creatine. I did skip over creatine. Well, I did, I think. So creatine, just to say there are six supplements I found that are effective in certain situations. They're all named by the Australian Institute for Sport, along with all their evidence. And creatine is one of them. So I don't think everyone should be on creatine. I think it is oversold and overmarketed. I don't think it'll cure your brain fog. I don't think it'll help you run a long distance. but for explosive sports if you've got all your training right and everything and you're really looking for a marginal gain um there is evidence that creatine will work and there are there are the other ones are caffeine bicarb beta alanine um gels in sport like taking on a bit of ng is good um those things that on the australian institute for sports website the gains are small i don't think everyone should take them but there are some things that work if you really want to go looking the menopause is um it's a time in a woman's life where all sorts of things are going on and you say in the book that actually your own mother she went through the menopause and you didn't like a lot of children frankly you took little or no notice I am I found it the most heartbreaking chapter to write because it is a place where the medical profession and the healthcare industry has completely failed women in multiple ways haven't invested in research the findings around HRT the dangers of HRT had been exaggerated and poorly communicated and that led to women exploring supplements oh my goodness and so you could track as the women's health initiative study results came out in the late 90s and the association with cancer was widely publicized HRT prescriptions plummet from 80 percent of American women post-menopause were taking HRT and getting massive benefit from it and the prescriptions fall down to almost nothing and consumption of menopause supplements absolutely soars so the neglect of the medical profession we are totally complicit in the rise of the wellness profession and the wellness industry and what you find with the menopause supplements if you you know there are hundreds of different menopause supplements on the market in the uk they're all different many of them contain ingredients that we would not um there's no evidence that they do any good many of them contain ingredients like black cohosh which is the one that i would be most concerned about which i think should really have a health warning on it they contain very variable doses either doses of vitamins that are so low they couldn't possibly help or that are so high they may cause nerve damage and other problems well i think you you report um a study that revealed that there's no common ingredient no common if you go and buy or if you go and buy lasagna in all the different supermarkets it's all got mints in it you know it's they've all got tomatoes in they've all got wheat in you know there might be a bit of you know are they using thyme or marjoram who knows But they'd agree on some of the ingredients.

54:26Menopause supplements, there is no common ingredient to any of them at all. The most shocking stat in the whole book for me is that every year around the world, we spend$6 billion on menopause supplements. And last year, the National Institutes for Health recorded funding menopause research at$60 million. So 100 times less. In the UK, we do not record how much we spend on menopause research because we spend so little. That is, it is, no one should feel gullible for taking these things. I suppose the counterpoint is that HRT's had some good publicity lately. Lots of very famous women really endorsing, going big on HRT.

55:05And is that, I mean, do we really want to be on HRT for our entire post-menopause life? So you're raising this. So the extraordinary thing that's happened is that if you're a woman going through or after menopause, you have been perhaps not you found HRT is both under prescribed and over prescribed. In that the pharmaceutical industry wants you back. You can get half the world's people to be customers at some point. And so HRT is under prescribed, but it's also oversold. So it is the fountain of youth. It's going to cure all these problems. And we know from big HRT trials that it is very good at managing the symptoms of menopause, but it will not keep you young forever.

55:41It will just sort of keep you your regular self and manage the symptoms. and so um HRT at least the experts I spoke to and I'm so cautious to sort of go well here's how to manage menopause but the experts I spoke to said HRT's main role is a bridge through menopause to help you manage these big fluctuations in hormones and I had a very interesting interview with Joyce Harper from University College London who said she's a professor of reproductive endocrinology and her main thing the thing she said look I want you to tell people for many people life after the menopause it can seem very bleak but your career can be amazing it can be absolutely great and we should be much more optimistic about the menopause and i thought that was i know that many people really struggle with it for a long time but she did say we're so negative about it um but yeah i think hrt is both is oversold and under prescribed which just makes the whole thing incredibly it's a i mean look as a guy writing this i just yes i can tell you in the presence of a woman who's been through the menopause.

56:40You are right to be angry. No, I'm not angry. I am on HRT, I should say. That's probably why I'm not angry. Betsy says, well, not as angry as I might be. What about probiotics? Can you take too many probiotic supplements? I think we, yes, it's such an interesting question. So probiotics, the idea that eating the bacteria that live in your gut and colonise your gut can do you good is a very popular idea. um there is very little evidence that high street probiotics will do you any good at all and they are very expensive and so there are lots of personalized nutrition companies that will test your poo tell your microbiome score well you do talk about we haven't got time unfortunately to explore no no and we don't i would say be very very cautious about any of that and personally i i would not spend your money on probiotics fruit and vegetables with lots of fiber seem a great way of nourishing your gut and keeping it safe.

57:34But the testing is unreliable and does not give you useful results. I mean, we are living in an age where some people in California and elsewhere are exploring living forever. Yes. And this is obviously not going to happen to them or to any of us. But it is out there. It's a very real conversation. These men who are measuring the strength of their nocturnal erections and it's just this is a bizarre planet isn't it and getting more bizarre my brother said to me that the great thing about being our age is that we will live to see the first of the longevity billionaires die which is an odd an odd perspective i mean die naturally we don't want them dead but it will there will be something a bit gratifying about going yes there's been a lot of hype um uh my my uh my old i have i have um colleagues at oxford who are teachers of mine who say that their labs are being sort of plundered for scientists to go and work in weird stem cell clinics in the Caribbean to help the billionaires live longer.

58:33It is the thing you said, they are all men. I do not know of any serious big longevity kind of proponent who is a woman. And there is a very sinister and unfortunate association between some of the prominent longevity science and Jeffrey Epstein, these odd projects, almost you feel like the ambition is to get these men to live longer so that they can abuse more women. I mean, it seems so... Gosh, that's bleak, Sam. It was so bleak. But, I mean, you look at some of the correspondence between Jeffrey Epstein and some of the big American longevity enthusiasts. They knew what he was doing. They literally were sending him emails saying, oh, your life's so outrageous and I can't tell anyone, but here's how to live a bit longer and let's organize your blood tests and let's sort you out i mean it's so that is i think that health and wellness are so important and we are so vulnerable in that area that you cannot get good advice about how to live long from a doctor whose main income is from billionaires who are abusing women and and abusing children as well i mean this is not i know every time you mentioned jeffrey epstein that atmosphere in the room changes but it feels like to have him as a central part of this story and this science just gives you it should give everyone the ick we should run a million miles from this stuff yeah the ick and the rest um fantastic to have you on thank you very much what a treat to speak to you thank you so much dr zand van tuliken um i suspect that may have set a few people thinking about what supplements they have in their life and in their cupboard it is make me well a quest to understand the confusing world of wellness.

1:00:14That is Dr. Zan's new book. It's out now. I'd like to take that away with me, if that's okay. You can buy it off me. No, I'd like to take that away with me, if that's okay. You can buy it. Anyway, never mind. We could be here forever. We have some parish notices. Yes, we do. So we need to start another book club. It will be book club number, I don't know. 11, I think. No, I think it's more than that. I think it's more than that. Maybe we could add them up. And we'd love some thoughts as to what genre. And we don't have to do something completely different. The USP of the book club has only ever been to read books that might have slightly passed people by at the time and that we want to revisit.

1:00:57So just anything that's not currently on a shortlist for a massive, great big prize or really out there in the ether. It's 12. It is book club number 12. And we would also love an autumn playlist. so chuck us a theme for that and we will get both of those things up and running. Well it could be autumn itself isn't it? Season of mist and mellow. Mellow fruitfulness. Close bosom friend of the maturing sun. Correct. Yeah. Lovely, lovely piece of poetry. Even in a maturing sun you do need sunscreen. You do. And even in a maturing bosom you do need lift. There's a chap in a war film with pseudocreme on his face there and I don't know what's going on.

1:01:40Oh, that's like the zinc of Shane Warne, isn't it? He was just so well-known, wasn't he, as a cricketer for being the first person to kind of pitch up with his great big stride across his face. Oh, that's right. He was very sensible. Very sensible. Unfortunately, he didn't do him any good in the end. No. Right, let's not go down that road. So genres and playlist themes, all of that, if you could do some thinking on our behalf. Please do, for God's sake. Please do. And bung them to Jane and Fee at times.radio. Bye-bye. See you tomorrow.

1:02:26Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

1:03:33Apple Watch Series 12 only not intended for clinical use or to detect diagnose monitor or treat medical conditions requires iphone 11 or later at pwc we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your ai from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible from blueprint to breakthrough we take you further with tech so you can out think outpace and outperform pwc so you can pwc refers to the pwc network and or one or more of its member firms each of which is a separate legal entity