Watering and tending to the clitoris (with Frank Gardner)

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2:28Welcome to Tuesday's Affair with Jane Fee and Eve. I thought that was quite a formal way to start. Why is Eve laughing? I don't know, she's very nervous. For some reason, I thought you were going to say Jane and Fee, but then you said Jane Fee, and I thought that you thought your last name was Fee, and I thought you were having a silly moment. You thought I was having a silly moment yesterday. I did think you were having a silly moment yesterday. Define silly moment. Be very careful. Jane did her coffee round and she offered everyone on the team a coffee. And I said, oh, yeah, great. And I came with you and we always go together in the morning to get coffee.

3:02Just a little routine. Just a little routine. It's nothing, really. There's another Eve now who's joined our team, who does all our wonderful videos on the YouTube. And then Jade said across the desk, Eve, do you want a coffee? And I was stood behind her and I'd already told her I'd wanted a coffee. It's a bit of confusion because they've both got the same names. And I was like, oh my God, she's lost her marbles. Jane, I'm over here. Do you know what? Sometimes when you're really desperate and you actually look at stuff on ITV3. I've gone there. I know. It feels like a very wet afternoon, doesn't it?

3:36It does. You may have had to be there. Right. Well, that's how we roll here. Welcome to whatever this is. We're so glad you're with us. Okay. If you're anywhere near as confused as we are, you're one of us, there's no doubt about it. Now we are going to play a little bit of catch up as well because we've had a slightly, I don't want to say a bumpy ride, we just had we had some intermittent stops, didn't we, on our journey which meant that in particular Barbara's fantastic email about hair loss, which we were promising to read Barbara and I'm so sorry, from about three weeks ago has waited until today and we are also going to bring in somebody who queued with Richard Gere for the toilet.

4:22We'll be doing that in that episode, this in that episode too. Right, right. Okay, and our guest is the BBC security correspondent and novelist, Frank Gardner. Frank, Frank Gardner. Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank Gardner. He's doubly Frank. Frank Gardner. Frank, Frank Gardner. All right. What was one of the worst introductions or beginnings to any podcast you've ever heard, but Frank is so interesting. And his book, he does write books with, I like them because they're short chapters and they're packed with action feet. They're very Lee Child. They are. But with a slightly more intellectual background, aren't they?

4:59Because we're talking spies rather than soldiers. With a British heft and a British level of intrigue. And Ballistic is about, that's the title, Ballistic. Titles don't get any beefier than that, do they really? Well, unless it was just called Beef, which it isn't. It's called Ballistic. and Frank is our guest this afternoon. Now, shall we start with Barbara? Now we've teased it. Let's just go straight there. Let's just go straight there. So this came in in the middle of July and thank you very much indeed for it. Hello, Jane and Fee. I'm emailing about my hair loss experience. Six years ago, I noticed the shower wasn't draining and pulled out what resembled a sleeve of a knitted jumper.

5:42We've all been there, Barbara. my hair got thinner and thinner with scalp and contour of my head being visible i found it immensely distressing hated my reflection in the mirror and my confidence tanked i saw my gp who checked for thyroid problems levels of ferritin and that's stored iron isn't it barbara's helpfully put that in brackets vitamin d to eliminate those as a cause and i went to see a trichologist who diagnosed female pattern hair loss probably triggered by hormonal upheavals in menopause and talogon effluvium the hair follicles spend extended time in the dormant phase of the growth cycle after her hair has fallen out she was a very lovely woman i felt listened to and emerged from the appointment with her own branded multivitamin scalp spray shampoo and conditioner at 30 quid a bottle and marine collagen from a brand she endorsed which was so repugnant i retched every time i swallowed the contents of a daily sachet oh dear the hair loss continued and so did my misery.

6:40My mind was on a repeating loop. Why couldn't I accept what was happening? Why was I so vain? And why did it matter? But fast forward to now, I accepted that my hair isn't going to grow back and looked at alternatives, alternative hair in this case, a topper, a clip on hair piece which attaches onto and blends with the remaining hair underneath. I made an appointment with a woman who has alopecia and runs a business fitting and supplying toppers. I first wore my new hair to a local music festival last week and felt fantastic. My confidence is returning. I feel like myself again. And crucially, I'm not wasting mental energy on this anymore.

7:18It is liberating. Well, what a fantastic end to that email. I'm so chuffed for you, Barbara, that you've come through this and found a new confidence. And it sounds like you had a great time at the music festival. I'm sorry about your experience with the... Well, we don't want to be too rude about this woman, but I bet there are quite a lot of people out there who are, shall we say, perhaps keen, isn't exaggerating it, but happy to help you when you have a problem like this. And they may well be charging you a lot of money for products that may really not be able to help. That seems to be the experience that Barbara had.

7:56Yeah, I think some of those remedies do help. Well, that's why I'm not entirely certain about what I'm saying. I don't want to... We don't know the name of this. Did you say trichologist? I did. I probably got it wrong. Would you say trichologist? I don't know. I don't know what you say, actually. I don't know what it is. By saying trichologist, it sounds like I don't rate them. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So let's go with tri. Because, yes, we need to be careful. We don't know that what they were plying you with was a load of cobblers. it sounds as though your GP sort of went through some checks but didn't have any solutions but you've alighted on a solution that works for you yourself so and everyone who loves you and cares for you Barbara will be delighted with that with that turn of events and the fact that you're now out and about and feel much happier about everything great you've got there but there's no doubt that losing hair does make you feel rubbish I think we can absolutely all own that can't we?

8:54Very much so and I think for women it is an incredibly difficult conversation to broach yeah so I when I read your email Barbara I thought god good for you for emailing in because I am sure we will have hundreds of members of the hive who are having a similar experience because our hair does change in menopause a lot and I'm not saying that it's easy for men to go bald because I know it's not but there is a whole there's a there's a visibility about it now there's an industry surrounding it there are people who are very happily bald there's an acceptance that uh hair loss doesn't mean loss in the rest of your life you know that there's just a bigger conversation about it isn't there i think female pattern hair loss yeah when it affects women isn't talked about enough at all and jane back in the day wigs were just so much more of a thing for for women as they got older yeah people did wear wigs didn't they and of course some religions a lot of women wear wigs don't they um as a matter of course it's what they do every day and i wonder in our world of hair extensions and all of that kind of stuff why we aren't talking about it that's a good point because you're right hair extensions are everywhere oh my word yeah they really are um barbara i know we've taken our time to get round to your email and I do remember Fee mentioning it and she was very sincere in her desire to read it out and we have finally got there.

10:16Let us know how you are now and whether you've continued to be really chipper about this turn of events because I think a lot of people will be very interested in it and I must admit I hadn't heard the expression topper I just didn't know about them. Did you? Well I did yes yeah no I knew exactly what what Barbara meant. I mean, I suppose a topper or a toupee, same thing, isn't it? Yeah, I guess it is, yeah. And again, we don't want to be too damning of the trichologist you saw, but I suppose I would be a little dubious of anyone who was, frankly, flogging their own branded multivitamin. Yeah, and do you know what, the marine collagen thing is everywhere.

10:54Is it? Yeah, oh, I get that a lot on Instagram. Oh, do you? Okay. Yes, yes, yes. And what does that, where does it come from? Well, so there's a lot of promises being made about things that come from the sea. that they can help us in our menopause. And it was funny as well, when I read your email, Barbara, and you said that Sashay made you wretch, I actually thought, are you meant to take it internally? Or was it meant to be just spread on your head? Anyways, I'm glad you stopped taking it. There was a follow-up from Barbara who said, I wrote to you about my hair loss, just a couple of things to add to my original email.

11:27What inhibited me from considering alternative hair earlier, the stigma that surrounds hair loss for women and wearing wigs, which is odd given this is exactly the point that you've just made, given that women wear hair extensions and this isn't stigmatised. Part of my tipping point to getting a topper, I had breast cancer 20 years ago and had a mastectomy and reconstructive surgery using stomach fat. I have a fake tit with a tattoo of a nipple on it. So wearing a topper is completely consistent with replacing something that was lost to me to benefit my psychological wellbeing. It is simple restoration.

12:02oh well done Barbara just great so tell us your thoughts about this because yes I think it would be very very good to give hair loss and the solutions that people have found a bit more of an airing and I know through a friend who had breast cancer that she really she did lose most of her hair which has now grown back and it looks fantastic actually she did not like wearing wigs at all she just couldn't do it so she didn't really and I think it is a very very personal choice isn't it not really something that anybody else could advise you on it's how you feel about yourself and the way you look and you should just be allowed to do whatever you want yes yeah but I do find it interesting that we're still I don't know what we are we're a little bit unembracing of wigs for women and I just think when did that happen because there just would have been a time when every woman wore a wig I mean, throughout history, wigging has been a very, very good thing.

13:04I hope I haven't said something rude there. Wigging, I don't know. It's probably a practice. Neither of you nor I will know anything about it. Oh, my goodness. It hasn't triggered Eve, so I think we're all right. Oh, lordy, lordy. Dolls' names. Oh, these dolls' names. These are very, very funny. Elaine says, my daughter, when very young, named one of her dolls Five O 'Clock. I don't know why, but the name stuck, and it seemed quite normal. I just love that. I mean, it's a nice time, five o 'clock. Not in the morning, but five o 'clock at night, I don't know. Do you like it? I do, I like it. I think that's one of the better times in the 24-hour clock.

13:40Oh, I find five o 'clock very frustrating. Of course, in the 24-hour clock it's 17. 1 ,700 hours. Which isn't as good at all. No. So it's too early to have an evening drink. It isn't. It really isn't. So you're taking the it's always five o 'clock somewhere. Oh, so I am. Very seriously. Yeah, and a slice of processed cheese. Nothing wrong with it at five o 'clock. Yeah, I find it a very in-betweeny hour between five and six. Well, I guess I associate it with that's more or less when I get back from work. So I suppose that's why I think of it as a happy time. I'm reunited with Dora. I can open the fridge and anything is possible.

14:14Well, within reason. That is nice. I do remember when I stayed at home quite a lot to look after the kiddies when they were young. And actually, I mean, this is a common experience for loads of parents. It's probably the first time that you do that since when you were a teenager and you'd left school and you were trying to find a job or whatever. You're just not really at, if you're lucky, you're not really at home very much during the day. These are lost hours where you're home. I mean, you don't know what it's up to. Yeah. And I remember just finding pockets of time that I really loved and pockets of time that I really didn't and thinking this is so strange.

14:50There are just these whole hours of the day that take on a completely different significance. I did just love 11.30. In the morning? In the morning, yep. Why? Because the house would be relatively still because either the kids had gone for a bit of a kind of early morning kip or we'd been out somewhere and done something and they were plonked in front of Postman Pat and I'd be getting lunch ready. You'd be having a little kitchen bustle. I would be, yes. But on your own possibly, how lovely. And it was just a lovely time that I'd just never really been at home or just, you know, had that part of the day to myself before.

15:27I'd like to know what my house is up to right now. Yes. But 20 past two on a Sunday afternoon is very different. Oh, I don't like that. No, no. It's very strange, isn't it? And then, of course, there's Sunday evening, which can often, even in later life, be a quite triggering time of the week. Anyway, it's quite pathetic, isn't it? Let's all write a PhD on what's our favourite and spookiest and most challenging. time of the day time of the day yeah and also I think once you put the kids through school all of those school times you just never lose that imprint on your life well I will still check the clock at quarter to nine and think that I need to get going and I don't because I don't come in for the coffee round I come into work as late as possible we do need to make it clear fees far from being mean in fairness you do go you offer drinks later I do the afternoon yes but I can't come into work any earlier than I have to No one is dehydrated on this shift.

16:24No, they're not. No, they're really not. They're really not. My school finished, for reasons that are too boring to explain, at five past four. No, explain that. That's fascinating. Why are you that so specific? I do, because we had 40-minute lessons. So the last lesson of the day started at, yeah, 25 past three and finished at five past four. Why did the... Sorry, OK. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure it's not the case in schools now. God alone knows what that was all about. That is quite complicated. So it's due to the length of assembly. So does five past four? But that's the time that you finish now.

17:01Well, it sort of is. Spooky. Yeah, it is. All these times all come round, don't they? They do. Yep, they do. Tell us your times. Tell us your times of day. Tell us what you do within reason. Within reason. Can we just briefly bring in Caroline in Brisbane? And I like this. She's one of a number of Australian listeners who has thoughts about your Australian accent, which I like. I've always made it clear I like it. She enjoyed, by the way, Caroline... It's cracking out of my tinny. Caroline enjoyed hearing Hannah's accent last week. She's got a lovely voice, actually. Caroline says, I lived in London for a short period many years ago and then ended up with a wonderful flatmate who came from Skipton in Yorkshire.

17:42She was a tiny petite thing, but she had this fabulous, roaring northern accent. The poor thing somehow ended up in a house with five Australian girls. It was wild and we had loads of fun. In terms of Fee's Australian accent, my opinion varies wildly depending on where I'm at with my HRT. It's a very great argument. If everything is going smoothly, I think it's kind of funny. But if my hormones are a little bit out of whack, I find it quite patronising. but the same could be said for many things. Oh, you're so right, Caroline. Well, Caroline, I'm very sorry. I'm just going to tread very, very carefully now and I think it might...

18:25Well, we don't know where she is, do we, in terms of whether she's out of whack or in of whack. Yeah, I think the accents might go in a little box for quite some time. I'll just use them in... Jane and I have private time. I'll just use it in our private time. Have you had the meeting with the boss yet about this? No, I haven't. You've had it, but I haven't had it yet. Yeah, I've had it yet. No, I'm dreading it now. Are you dreading it? You should. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm not going to say anything. Eve's looking intrigued, but don't tell her. Make sure she doesn't know. No, no. I mean, it'd be quite funny if I don't have the meeting with the boss.

19:00Actually, I don't know what that's going to tell me. This comes in from Lisa, and it's Sparky 90s. Lisa, I love you. I loved reading this. So I wanted to talk about the very important topic of Sparky 90s. when I was young many years ago, I had flannel 90s and every time I turned over in bed in the dark, they'd provide sparks and crackles. I miss all that, don't you? Well, get yourself a boyfriend, love. I don't want to go that far. Sparks and crackles are back.

19:34Oh, dear. I think I'd just rather go back to Brentford Nylons, if that's all right with you. Oh, dear. I didn't think that was going to happen. Back with Lisa. This both terrified me and amazed me at the same time. I was recently reminded of my Sparky Nighty episodes after the recent hot weather. When, to keep cool, I removed my duvet out of my duvet cover. When I flung the duvet off all night, I was delighted and again terrified to see that sparks were indeed flying. What? Really? Yes, in a seriously maxed out manner, just like my Sparky Nighty days. I just wanted to know if any of your lovely listeners has also had fond memories of experiencing sparky nighties when they were little.

20:13A very serious subject, I know. Well, it is, Lisa. So what happened? She took... So when I flung the duvet on and off all night, I was delighted and again terrified to see that sparks were indeed flying in a seriously maxed out manner. So because it's been so hot, she's been kicking the duvet, kicking it up and kicking it off, and sparks have started to fly. From her nightie? From her duvet, I think. From her duvet, yes. God, where does she live? It doesn't say. Right. I just hope it's not next door to me. I don't want anything to happen. Right. Well, what I thought you meant was that funny material that all our nightwear was made of.

20:56Yes, a kind of flannelette. Yes, in the health and safety free 1970s where you'd be put to bed in something incredibly flammable. Yeah. And we were all by, you know, not wildfires, we were sitting by the fire. You know, I can still remember the coal fire being made up first thing in the morning. I'm so old. I can also remember that. Was it being made by a wench? It's you coming, good morning, ma 'am. Like, can I light your fire? A little bit like that, yes. Yeah, so for very good reason, people stopped making those and selling those. because you're right, they were incredibly hazardous, but they did.

21:37They crinkled and sparkled and created static fire, didn't they? More or less, yeah, they did. But that is no longer allowed. But we'll put that out there and see if anyone else has had issues when removing. Is she suggesting that in the middle of the night she'd go to bed with the duvet inside the cover and then remove it? I mean, why didn't she learn a savage lesson that, in fact, at this time of year, you don't need the duvet, just have the cover. Right, sorry, hang on. I mean, I'm assuming you're in the south of England where it has been just interminably hot for weeks on end. It's both terrifying and amazement at the same time.

22:13I was recently reminded of my Sparky 90 episodes after the recent hot weather when, to keep cool, I removed my duvet out of my duvet cover. Yes. So this is, OK, so she's just got the duvet and the duvet is obviously made of a polyester material. It's not goose and feather down. No. So it's the duvet that doesn't have a protective layer of cotton or linen or whatever on top of it. So when Lisa is then flinging the duvet on and off all night, she's in direct contact with a man-made fibre, isn't she? So that's what's causing it. Again, I refer you to ITV3. I hope you're still with us. Have you ever ventured to ITV4?

22:58No, I have. Have you? That's very bold. I think that's something that only Simon Reeves would ever do. I think I'm keeping that for my 60s. Well, that's where I find myself, of course. I know, I'm still years away, Jane. Years and years away. I'm still enjoying it. Now, I found, you know, sometimes you just find a thriller, you surprise yourself because you haven't seen it. It's on Netflix, but it's a British show. Jane, I live for that moment. Well, have you watched Collateral? Have you seen it? Oh, I have, yes. David Hare. Yes. Written by David. It's very good. Kerry Mulligan. um who else is in it nick mohammed yes john sim it is very good nicola walker it's very good lucky you i know i do envy you that i know i'm only one episode in i flicked through all of the streaming services just hoping against hope there was once an episode of vera we found that we hadn't watched it was like christmas came i know it's amazing when you bumble into something you think oh this will just amuse and entertain and yeah educate me yeah and actually on that topic did you ever watch Rooster?

24:01did you get into Rooster Steve Carell? oh he's an academic yes it is very funny it is one of the funniest comedies that we've watched in recent times and in about episodes long it's 15, 18 episodes something so let's say at the end of episode 12 there seems to be quite a cadence in the script when father and daughter sit on their porch and she says I've got something to tell you dad and it pans out and I thought, God, what a lovely, lovely way to end season one in preparation for season two. And then I went back to it the other day, three more episodes afterwards. Well, what does she tell him?

24:38It was an imperfect cadence. It wasn't the final thing. Yeah, that was me for the evening. Back to back, shush everybody. Imperfect cadence of an evening. Yeah. Here is another contribution on the subject of Doll's Names. I'm sorry, I absolutely love this. I should have done it earlier when we were talking about Toll's names, but the imperfect cadence has just thrown me. Jess says, she's from Oxford. Long-time listener, second-time emailer, but the first time, pan lids. I was just far too late. Oh, Jess, don't berate yourself. Sometimes timing is just off. It happens to all of us. My now seven-year-old chose a tiger toy at the London Zoo gift shop, says Jess, on a special Christmas present trip just weeks before COVID hit.

25:23so he must have been about 17 months at the time. I told him we had to pay for the tiger before leaving. On the train home to Oxford, I asked him the tiger's name and he informed me it was Pay the tiger. And so Pay remains to this day, occupying his cuddly toy box along with Rory 2, Rory 3 and Rory 4. They are a series of bears, Rory 1 being a onesie and therefore the alter ego of the seven-year-old. uh jess i just love these glimpses into the child's mind i just think why not i mean it's entirely logical to call to call a bear a tiger toy sorry pay the tiger pay the tiger it's not i'd say it would probably not as good as five o 'clock but it's still a very good name for a tiger yeah this one in from claire uh who says uh your conversations this week brought back a very specific memory of my first and only doll.

26:20It was the early 1980s and I lovingly named her Thatcher. It was my toddler attempt at Thatcher, inspired by the most prominent woman on the news back then. I like to think it showed a precocious interest in current affairs, though when questioned by my mum, I insisted it was because Thatcher had the same hairstyle as the Prime Minister. And actually Maggie's hair was quite doll-like, wasn't it? Well, I mean, it was very hard and bouffant. Yes, it would have taken a major Russian attack to dislodge anything on that woman's head. I always thought if a bird flew into it it wouldn't get out. It might have spent many hours in the days.

26:58Who knows? I think you're right. Claire goes on to say, oddly enough, Thatcher spent her entire existence living naked in the bath. Right. Okay. Why don't we plunge headlong into the day's controversy about our current Prime Minister's holiday? Oh, what a good idea. So he's gone on holiday just a couple of weeks into the job. What do you think? I think he is perfectly entitled to go on holiday. I think he's got a very, very big year coming up and I'd like him to be refreshed and ready for it. As we were discussing yesterday, Andy Burnham has had a policy burp every day since he entered number 10 Downey Street.

27:38So he's done a lot. Yes, I think I'm right in saying today's been relatively quiet. Yeah, but he has told us a lot, especially for August. So I think it's absolutely fine. What do you think? Well, I want to be controversial. So I suppose I just venture the opinion that, I mean, he obviously knew this job was coming. Lord knows he's been planning for it. He's been planning for it since about 1987. Yeah, he's been manipulating matters to ensure that he found himself in this position. So I would say that. Did he have to go away? But to your point, of course, he's not really away. He can't be away.

28:12If you've chosen to pursue this as a career, you must expect to be phone positive and available 24-7 for as long as you're doing it. I mean, I actually do hope that Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves are putting their trotters up somewhere on a sun lounger and getting a bit of a break because I'm sure they're exhausted. And I'm saying that in an apolitical, just very balanced kind of way. I just want people to have a rest because it's tough. We vote for these people or we don't vote for them, people, but we're not doing these jobs because we don't want to do them. So sometimes you get the politicians you deserve and we need to give them a break every now and again, I think.

28:47Yeah, I just think take the holiday now because I don't want to see you disappear, you know, in October or November. And you can't because you've got a massively important budget to oversee and comment on. You've got an awful lot of things to do. Also, he might have pre-booked a holiday, Jay, and he didn't take flexible flights. Well, I mean... And as we all know, to our cost, we think in the moment, I'm saving£31.40. or just go, economy will be fine. And then you spend the rest of the summer regretting it. Yes, indeed. So, you know, he may not have been able to get his money back. I mean, it might be a very special holiday.

29:22It might be a wedding anniversary holiday or something like that. I'd just say go for it. You know, this idea that politicians have to be completely different to us. Well, it's difficult. We want them to be a bit like us, but not too much like us. But I don't, you know, look what's happened in America with a man who, who, you know, who's, I mean, intellectual brain has been on holiday with all his bloody life. But he's always on, isn't he? And he's texting at two in the morning and he's making up a policy on Monday and then changing it by Wednesday. I mean, we all wish that he'd just bugger off for two weeks and put his feet up and stop.

29:55Just, yeah, wouldn't he? I mean, he makes a policy on a Monday morning. He's changed it by lunchtime, let's face it. He doesn't wait till Wednesday. Good Lord, woman. I also, Andy Burnham's got a paunch. That's the other thing. And let's just say, who in midlife doesn't have a tummy issue of one sort or another? Leave him alone on that one. I do find that farcical. I mean, find me any person in their 50s and 60s whose stomach muscles aren't occasionally, shall we say, letting them down. It's simply what happens if you're healthy and eat stuff and have a drink occasionally. It's just called being alive.

30:29Yeah, I would totally agree with that. For sake. Back to doll's names. This talk of owls. Oh, yes, we were talking about Owl. I know. Be very careful. Yes, sorry. This is from, we won't say who it's from, but they're in North Yorkshire. Talk of Owls and Dolls names made me remember fondly that my then two-year-old called her own soft toy, an owl, Penned. Now, this is obviously a genital-adjacent name, which, coupled with a slight childish lisp, gave rise to much tittering in our family and many, I beg your pardons, from strangers who asked what her owl was called as she toted it happily around.

31:06totes did about. The same daughter aged three was exploring body parts one day and pointing closely to her genital region she asked what's this bit called? Well I like to be accurate and honest so I said well that's your clitoris and my daughter's eyes grew large. She smiled and said mummy what a beautiful name. I just wish you'd called me clitoris. Now aged 11 I'm pretty sure she's glad we didn't although it might have made a rather lovely middle name. Thank you to that correspondent in North Yorkshire. Now, I had a friend whose mum was a keen gardener but often confused clematis with clitoris and would invite visitors to her home to admire her clitoris.

31:49That's a true story. It did cause an element of confusion, as it would. As it would, indeed. You can get very lovely scented ones, can't you? Well, you can. you know much more about gardening than i do what time of year we are pathetic but that's what time of year is is good for climators i don't know it doesn't that is so one of your let's get this interview back on track questions Yes. I've done women's hair, love. One of those questions. I don't know. Does that day bloom all year? No, I don't know. I don't think they're out all year. I think they're seasonal. But I think that you definitely get a good innings from a clematis.

32:45Right. And let's move on to another email. Let's do this. So this is Jules, who's a loyal listener and occasional emailer. after hearing about how Stanley Tucci did not disappoint in real life I wanted to share my story with the hive on a 2009 return flight from the quite wonderful Galapagos Islands I've been volunteering at the Giant Tortoise Breeding Centre I found my... are they busy? Is that a busy breeding centre? Well, I don't think it would be, would it? I don't know I don't know I'm fascinated by tortoise and turtles they're so primeval aren't they they just speak of a completely different planet that they lived on and the speed that they move at the size they grow to the age they achieve I just think they're wonderful creatures really wonderful the tortoise on St Helena who's absolutely ancient we've occasionally spoken to the vet there we have on a busy news day I had a tortoise as a child did you?

33:50yeah Tommy Tommy, why is that funny?

33:56I used to find hibernating, getting him out of hibernation quite strange. When did you, on what day did you decide that's enough, Tommy? Wake up now. Come on. I think, what would it be? Sort of mid-April, I think. I don't know. Mid-April on Merseyside. High time for the tortai to come out of hibernation. And when he was hibernating, you put him in a cardboard box? Yes, with lots of straw. Following instructions from Blue Peter, yeah. Yeah. Blue Peter, it always had a tortoise, didn't it? Yes, it did. But I think now that would be very much frowned upon. Blue Peter? It is quite boring. No, because they've stopped it.

34:31They've moved online. Anyway, my God, this has been an absurd episode. It has. And also Blue Peter wasn't boring, actually. All of those. Do you know what I was looking at in our upstairs loop? Yes, we have more than one toilet. I've done very well. Is, dare I ask, is it still on the market it is it is on the market somebody made an offer oh right no no someone made an offer on our house the other day that was so insulting oh god the estate agent said i don't really want to have to pass this on to you but interestingly they said that it's very much a buyer's market at the moment everyone's very nervous and rightly so you know mortgage rates are quite high by comparison to where they were a couple of years ago and donald trump has made the world a very uncertain place.

35:19She said there's a certain type of person at the moment who's absolutely scouting for a bargain. And I suppose that's, I mean, that's what you would do, wouldn't it? But actually just putting in these offers that are really upsetting people. And because, and I'm not complaining at all, you know, I've been lucky to be able to buy a house and, you know, watch it grow with the times. But actually, if you've paid a mortgage for, what, 30 years now and never missed a mortgage payment and some years that's been harder than others actually when somebody comes along it slightly negates all of that work doesn't it because they just look at your house and go well that's a bargain for me yeah yeah i'll have that and you just think no i don't i don't want i don't want to do that there's a real cruelty involved somehow in all that isn't there well there is but i do return to the point that yes i am yeah lucky to have one so no it's still very much available in the upstairs loo i was just looking at all of the toilet rolls you know that are dead that don't make it back downstairs because i don't know whether you've ever experienced this with your equally very articulate and bright and forward facing young adults that you share the house with they can't they cannot get rid of a an old loo roll a spent yeah it's just it's it's completely beyond you are asking a lot though they've got to take a A small cardboard tube down some stairs.

36:42Oh, come on, Fee. God's sake. What are mothers for? But I was thinking back in our day, that was valuable compromat to take into school, to start building the Tracy Island, to do something. You know, you just, you did keep. I wondered where you were heading. That's where you're going back to, Blue Peter? Yeah, use toilet rolls. You would just, mum would have a whole bag full of things that we might need in case Blue Peter came up with... Milk bottle tops. Yep, there you go. To buy a guide dog. There you go. Eve doesn't know what we're talking about here. We're speaking in code from the old world.

37:15Back with Jules. So she was in the Galapagos Islands and then she got on a small plane with only one low at the front. I hadn't noticed as I was standing in Sud Q that behind me was the one and only Hollywood A-lister, Richard Gere. Now that is a good one. It's a very good spot, isn't it? Needless to say, I left the cubicle spotless and managed a nervous smile before returning to my seat. He definitely had that aura of a movie star and certainly didn't disappoint, although he's smaller than you'd think. How could you tell if he was sitting down? No, because he was queuing. Oh, I see. He was queuing behind Jules on the very small plane with only one loo at the front.

37:55That would make me nervous. What, because you might do some business in the loo and then Richard Gere would come in afterwards and think less of you? Just to only have one loo on a plane. Oh, yeah, well, it wouldn't be great. It really wouldn't. we've just talked about a Hollywood A-lister let's talk about our charrettes with this email bring back our charrettes in cinemas I needed a break during that three hour odyssey to enjoy it and an ice cream and a wee wee would help me is that English? why did we ever get rid of them? asks Granny Duck and surely they would make more money for cinemas you wouldn't be expected to watch a play without a break in the middle it's my nightly treat your podcast.

38:36It takes me back to the days of listening with mother as a child.

38:43Well, thank you. Well, we're damned with faint praise. We often are. Happy to oblige. We'll take any amount of praise, really. So definitely, I think we're all with you on that granny... Granny duck. Granny duck. Because a break would be super. They'd make lots more money because everybody would pop out and get another burger and a great big thing of popcorn that's bigger than their heads and have a wee and hop back in. I don't know why Odyssey hasn't come with a break. It just seems ridiculous. I guess it is because they need to pack in the performances, don't they? The cinema, we went to see it at.

39:19Literally, they had a five-minute turnaround. Really, between shows. Get out, off we go again. It's rare, isn't it, in the world of cinema for a movie to be this successful? So they just want to milk it. As I don't know the story and I haven't seen the film, and I might not be able to go. Does he get back? That's all I need to know, really. I mean, is it a spoiler alert? Does he come home? I think as the epic poem has been out there for a couple of years, I think it is safe to say that yes. Oh, good. Well, I don't need to bother that, do I? Happy ending. And she's happy to have him? So she... Well, I'm not going to ruin everything for you.

39:57I think it's more complicated when your husband turns up after that amount of time away and, you know, may need to go to the doctor for some tests. It's what I'd advise. Right. So it's slightly more complicated than that. And yes, he does get home. And actually, I'm really looking forward to hearing what you think about The Odyssey. I think some of the great big kind of... this quite blunt force that Christopher Nolan uses to reach into The Odyssey and bring out relevant themes for our times. I personally think he does it quite well because I think you do have to go, this is a point that I'm making these days in movies, especially in action movies.

40:44You must have found that with Jungle Cruise. Yes, I did. I'm struggling, if I'm honest, to remember quite what the pertinent political, geopolitical elements of Jungle Cruise were. but um yeah but yes yes very much so right i think it's rather lovely that it is a great big action film of an epic poem from so long ago that does make a couple of really stunning points along the way but you know me middle name wokey liberal yes you are so yeah very good evening to ian dale never fails to notice that uh so i i don't know what you'll think because obviously you're much more what are you these days?

41:31Sleepy I'm definitely inclined towards sleepy, lazy, right wing thinking

41:59Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Hi, I'm Danny Fortson from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by ServiceNow. ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting systems, data and AI so workflows more smoothly across organizations. The platform integrates with different clouds, models, and data sources, bringing them together in one place. To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

42:39A BetterHelp ad. After my session and talking to my therapist and really feeling seen and heard for the first time, I just felt like a weight just was lifted off of my shoulders. And I felt like it was a good match from the first time we talked. I could tell people from lived experience that they should try therapy. I could really be myself again. And I have this continued support with BetterHelp. Wherever you are, that's where BetterHelp begins. Visit betterhelp.com slash random podcast to get started. Paid testimonials. Results may vary. Our guest now, I'm delighted to say, is Frank Gardner, BBC security correspondent, bestselling author.

43:20His latest Luke Carlton thriller, Ballistic, is out now. It is Frank's fifth book about the MI6 agent. And in ballistic, a Russian nuclear submarine is in the Arctic. But what is it carrying? Frank, hello, good afternoon. How are you? Good afternoon, Jen. Ballistic, is that kind of butch enough for you? Well, we've been practising saying it, neither of us are convinced we've got it right. Can you say it, please? I would say just ballistic. I mean, yeah, you got it right. Okay, thank you. Now, Luke Carlton is your hero. For new readers, people who haven't read the others, tell us about Luke. Well, the most important thing is that this is absolutely not some kind of James Bond, Jason Bourne, Bish Bosh crash banging around the world shooting his way up.

44:10It is not. None of these are that kind of novel, he says, seamlessly producing it, which just decided.

44:21But he always operates with a partner. usually female, usually somebody a little bit brighter than himself who perhaps is a bit more forward thinking. Do you know what? The line is a bit scratchy and you've already done a brilliant bit of public service radio by holding up a copy of your book so we have seen it in full vision. I just wonder if we can try and make contact with you in a slightly different way because I really want to dig into a longish conversation with you. I think we can rejoin Frank Gardner now, novelist and BBC security correspondent. Frank, hello. Are you loud and clear? Yes, I am.

44:58Whether I'm clear or not is disputable, but I'm certainly loud, yes. Excellent. OK. So you were telling us about Luke and a little bit about his backstory. Just pick up where you left off, if that's all right. Yeah. So actually, it's a relief that we are now out of vision because my daughter's cat has a real love of being on the camera. And there's been a few incidents of breakfast television, so let's not go there. Well, you're telling me there've been a few incidents of breakfast television. But anyway, carry on. Yeah. So Luke, yeah. Okay. So he's the main protagonist, but I've always gone to great lengths in all five of these novels to avoid him being the kind of classic, rather boring stereotype of, sorry, I'm not saying that James Bond or Jason Bond are boring.

45:45They're anything but. But to follow in their footsteps, to mimic them would be boring. So he tends to operate with very smart female operators. And this is because, Jane, the people that I meet in the day job as BBC security correspondent, not every day, but from time to time when we get briefings or when we go in and we're allowed to put questions, we meet super smart people at least 50 percent probably 60 percent of them are women and if you look at where we are right now the heads of two out of three of the intelligence agencies are both women so you've got blaze metro welly at mi6 yeah and keith butler keith butler at gchq and of course MI5 has already had two female heads in the past.

46:39Well, I mean, you're speaking my language. Obviously, this is what nailed on crop-haired feminists like Fi and I want to hear. So that's all excellent, excellent. I need to convert Fi though. Well, I don't know. I think she's on board. You are on board, aren't you? No, I'm very much on board. No, don't worry about Fi. So can we just, I've read the book and I've enjoyed it as I've enjoyed all your other books, Frank, But ballistic is set in the near future, isn't it? Yes, it's without a specific date. OK. In a world in which the USA has left NATO. Now, do you believe that's actually likely to happen?

47:15Right now, at this moment, no. But then again, it could change tomorrow, according to the man in the White House. I mean, you know, he has said on record, he said, it's beyond just discussion that we, the US, will leave NATO. Well, it's not as simple as that. He'd have to get two-thirds majority in Congress, which probably wouldn't give it to him. I happened to meet the U.S. ambassador here, Warren Stevens, a few days ago. And I said, I told him about this book. And I said, you're not going to like it, Ambassador. He said, oh, I'm sure I will. I said, I'm sure you won't. NATO has been replaced by something called ECTO, the Europe-Canada Treaty Organization.

47:53He said, well, that's definitely not going to happen. but you know i mean who knows what donald trump could try you know he doesn't particularly like nato he's been on record several times for saying what has it done for us he's got it into his head that the u.s has done everything for nato and not the other way around so it's fragile and i covered the nato summit um last month in i was in ankara for that in turkey and things were looking pretty rocky at the beginning. By the end, Mark Rutter, the Trump whisperer, had, I won't say he had Donald Trump eating out of his hand, but he was very good at smoothing Trump's ruffled feathers.

48:33Trump was in a bad mood when he arrived. He was very grumpy. America just lost to Belgium in the World Cup. And he said, I've only come here because my friend, President Erdogan is here. And by the end, he was all smiles. He was saying there's a lot of love in this room and It could be for me. I'm not sure. And so on. So this book is it's slightly dystopian in the sense that it envisages a world in which the US is no longer a dependable ally of the West. And some would say that's already the case. Yes. OK. Can we just talk about how the West copes in your book without access to the American intelligence?

49:14They'd probably begun to slightly take for granted. Well, with some difficulty, because if you look at the kind of biggest, greatest intelligence sharing alliance in the world, it's something called the Five Eyes. I'm sure you're familiar with it, which is the USA, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. And it's been going since the Second World War. And in my book, the US pulls out of that and it becomes the Four Eyes Alliance. Well, it's a heavily diminished partnership because the vast majority of intelligence is scooped up electronically by the National Security Agency, the NSA, which in some cases infamously, as whistleblown by Edward Snowden, some would say betrayed by him.

50:01And nevertheless, there is still GCHQ. The other countries have got much smaller intelligence gathering capabilities. And in a way, this book is, yes, it's a novel and it's fiction and it's meant to be a bit of a page turner, hopefully. Very short chapters, two pages, short attention span. Really pacey. I love that approach to thrillers. I really do. Yeah. But it's also a little bit of a kind of, it's painting a slightly dystopian sort of image of what it would be like if, God forbid, You know, things do go to the wire with Russia and whether we could defend ourselves and whether we could depend on America to help out.

50:48So it's still fiction. But I mean, there are things like Camp Friendship, which is a new joint U.S.-Russian camp base that is on Greenland. you know that would be extraordinary to contemplate and yet there are things who knew who could imagine five years ago that Putin would be getting the red carpet in Alaska well I mean not that that's a milestone in anything now but we live in extremely uncertain times where old certainties are turned upside down very quickly yes I entertained myself loosely speaking earlier this year by reading a short book, I'm sure you've read it, If Russia Wins by Carlo Masala.

51:34Do you want to just explain exactly what happens in that book? Well, I think you've read it more recently than me. But I mean, again, that's a kind of dystopian view. It's a kind of wake up call to everybody as to what happens if we run our defences down so much. And this comes to the heart of the debate here, which is very much a cause facing the government right now, as to, you know, for the last 20 years, the successive governments of all political hues have overspent the windfall of a peace dividend. So obviously, you know, when the Cold War came to an end in 1990 and the Soviet Union dissolved in 91, everybody quite rightly said, look, we don't need to spend all those vast amounts of money on defense anymore.

52:20We can spend a bit, but we can run things down because we don't have a threat anymore from another country. There's a threat of terrorism. There's a threat of lawlessness. But we're not going to be threatened by Moscow anymore. And that was fine until about 2007 when Vladimir Putin stood up at the Munich Security Conference and basically said, do you know what? We thought we could be partners with you, with NATO, but we can't. We see you as a threat. And the next year he invaded Georgia. Four years, six years later, he sort of essentially got his people to invade eastern Ukraine. And then in 22 was the full scale invasion and so on.

52:59And meanwhile, Russia has spent until billions on building up its ballistic missile force and its navy. you know it may have a fairly rubbish army but it's a big army and it is it's got the largest arsenal in the world of nuclear weapons so and meanwhile we have run down our army our navy our air force to dangerously small levels now it's not for me to say how the government should spend its money but that is that's where we are right i mean and you've been very clear um we can and should blame successive governments you're you're not pinning the blame on any political party here No, no. And in a way, voters get the politicians they deserve.

53:42I mean, isn't it true that most of us voters don't care enough about defence spending, choose not to inform ourselves about it? That is exactly right. I mean, I can almost hear the sound of flapping of my manager's sort of, whoa, whoa, hang on, Frank. I'm not sure you should answer that. But I'm going to answer it anyhow, which is that, look, the thing about defense is it's an insurance policy. And I know people who don't pay for home contents. You probably do, too, because they'd say, well, you know, it's unlikely to happen. So why should I pay for it? And that's essentially what defense is. You're paying money in most cases to stop something happening that hasn't happened, that could never happen.

54:30And you would understandably rather spend the money on things that need that cash here and now, schools, hospital, roads, transport, all the essential ingredients of daily life. um the what military analysts and critics would say is that you can only do that so far if you if you bring it down so low and and full disclosure here i'm a former army reservist so just you know i don't speak for anybody i'm not paid for by them or anything like that but just putting it out there um but the counter argument is that if you if you run your defenses down so low, then you risk encouraging aggression from a country like Russia that might think it could get away with it.

55:18And there is something called sub-threshold warfare, which already exists. Things like cyber attacks, interference with elections, mysterious drones buzzing over nuclear plants and airfields and military bases that's been taking place all over NATO countries. Yes, and attempts at disruption. I know several people have talked about the very real possibility that Russia may have influenced what happened in that Spanish enclave over the weekend. Who knows? I mean, certainly there is a vested interest. I mean, given that Russia is still very much at a full-scale war in Ukraine, which is not going particularly well, the Kremlin narrative is that this is actually NATO fighting Russia through the medium of Ukraine.

56:10They don't see it as NATO coming to the defense of a country that is vastly outnumbered, that didn't deserve to be attacked and invaded. They see it as NATO waging war against Russia. And there are hardline voices, people like Nikolai Prashtyshev in the past in the Kremlin, who would say it's time to take the gloves off and start giving Western countries a taste of what Russia is currently experiencing, because the war is coming home to Russia. make no mistake, you know, you'll have seen the flames erupting around the wild berries storage sites outside Moscow and St. Petersburg and places like that.

56:54That's their equivalent of Amazon, where Ukraine has switched from just attacking oil refineries to attacking economic targets that are helping Russia's war efforts. And that is visible. That's now something visible to all ruffles. Right. And without wishing to absolutely terrify people, there is a possibility that a vulnerable Putin domestically poses a real threat to the rest of us and indeed to the Baltic states in particular. Yeah, I mean, I've seen sort of the arguments on both sides here. Certainly, the Baltic states are very nervous for two reasons. One is that unlike Poland, which has always been a sovereign state.

57:37Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were former Soviet socialist republics. They were part of the Soviet Union in our lifetimes, so up until 1991 or thereabouts. The other reason is that they've all got sizable minorities of Russian-speaking population. And it wouldn't take much for Vladimir Putin to say, we've been invited in by our fellow Russians to come and protect them from the beastly governments in Tallinn, Vilnius and Riga, which is essentially the excuse that they've had for invading eastern Ukraine. Right. Gosh, I mean, we do want people to read your book. We do. And look, I mean, let's just draw a line.

58:24That is the kind of backdrop to all of this. Yes. Yeah. This is, you know, you've read it, Jane. So I hope and I'm thrilled that you enjoyed it, because this is primarily about human interaction. And it's not just taking place in the high north. I went to Tobago early last year to research it. Well, I was about to say, it's not just Finland here, but Tobago, I mean, how lovely was that? It was glorious. I mean, full disclosure, I went there partly to photograph hummingbirds. So who wouldn't? And it's brilliant. They come to you there. You know, a lot of people have feeders. They have certain plants, flowers called purple luvane, I think it's called.

59:05And this stuff is lovely. And the hummingbirds kind of zip around and fly into your room and fly out again. So that was really nice. Nature photography is a big thing of mine. But while I was there, I researched quite a lot of it because I wanted to set some of the narrative in a kind of different place, somewhere to give a bit of a contrast to Arctic Russia and Finland. I think I don't want this sounds patronising and I'm going to have to think about how I phrase this. But you are I'm going to put it to you that you're probably Britain's best known wheelchair user. Would you agree? Because you're often on television and people see you.

59:43Yeah, I mean, I think my close rival probably would be Adi Adipitan, who's a friend. I mean, Adi's been on the BBC One promos and he's a former Paralympian basketball player. So he's achieved greater heights than I have. And he's also done a huge amount for accessible travel. He's done a lot of travel programs. And he doesn't do it with a sort of, oh, goodness, look how hard it is for me. He does it with quite the opposite, with just one huge, great, big, cheerful smile on his face. He's a fantastic advocate for better accessible travel. so yeah Adi and then there's Sophie Morgan as well who's done a lot for rights for flights trying to get airlines and airports to make life easier for us wheelchair people and claims.

1:00:35Has anything improved in that area? It's got worse it got better and then it got worse yeah it's easy jet and I make you sign a form undertaking that in the event of an emergency you can get yourself to the door of the plane. I mean, I can, but I've got to do it on my backside. And am I going to do that in the middle of a stampede? You know, I'm going to be the last person off that plane, that's for sure. God, I mean, this is really depressing stuff. Because you're under, Fia's just reminded me, of course, of the great Dame Tanny Gray Thompson as well. So another person who has been very clear about how she's had problems with rail travel as well in this country.

1:01:20And it's just it doesn't appear to be something that is improving despite the noise you and so many other great people have made. No, unfortunately, I think that airlines have gone back to and airports sometimes in some cases have gone back just thinking, where can we cut corners? And unfortunately, I think disabled access is one of those areas. The biggest enemy I find is something called policy. So a couple of years ago, I flew back from Warsaw on lot airlines. And it's a three and a half hour flight. Halfway through the flight, I said, could I have the aisle chair so I can get to the loo? And the stony faced lady said, no, we don't have it.

1:02:04I said, what do you mean? It's policy. We don't have it. I said, what do you mean it's policy? It's a human right to go to the loo. Nope, we don't have it. And to be fair, the male steward on board was hugely embarrassed and apologetic. And he said, you know, what can I do to help? And I said, well, you know, I'm going to have to go to the loo. So I'm going to go on my bum along the carpet. And he helped by lifting up my shoes as I went. You know, I used my arms and then power sort of levered myself up onto the seat of the loo using my upper body strength. But I shouldn't have to do this. And I took a picture on the way back of my legs stretched out on the carpeted aisle of this bloody lot airlines plane, still in a suit from a conference I'd attended.

1:02:53And I put it on X and it had 9.1 million views, which I was very pleased about because that was, you know, some Polish friends said that was kind of embarrassing. And I really hope that lots have changed their stupid, quote, policies since then. These policies are never designed by people who have these problems. Frank Gardner, BBC security correspondent, ace novelist. And honestly, if you want something pacey and filled with action, I cannot recommend ballistic highly enough. So it has long been said, hasn't it, that one of the greatest recruiting grounds for intelligence officers has been the foreign desk of newspapers, broadcasting organisations, and presumably now blogs and websites.

1:03:42Are you angling to hear my anecdote about the day I spent at GCHQ? Take it away, lady. No, I'm not telling you. I'm not telling you anymore. OK. So I wonder whether Frank's not a spy himself. okay yeah have you ever been asked if you were a spy because women's hour would be a great cover as well um let's just end the podcast let's end the podcast here and let's reconvene tomorrow goodbye

1:04:25Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

1:05:20So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor, or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Hi, I'm Danny Fortson from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by ServiceNow. ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting systems, data, and AI so workflows more smoothly across organizations.

1:05:57The platform integrates with different clouds, models, and data sources, bringing them together in one place. To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.