When fibre-maxxing meets portaloos... (with Sathnam Sanghera)

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1:11A very good morning to everybody. We're recording this before midday. You're probably listening to it. In fact, you would be listening to it after midday. I wonder whether anybody does listen to this as a start to their day, Eve. I don't think it's got those kind of vibes do you? Do you think it's a bit subdued? Yeah I just don't I don't think it would be anybody's go to at 7.45am No and I take your point but people do say they listen to it on their morning dog walk Not quite the same, we're not getting anyone out of bed. No but that would be quite early. The idea of you on the dog walk might motivate them to get out of bed but I don't know if they're waking up with you.

1:51No. But you can let us know if you are. Don't wake up with me. I'm not sure many people would like to wake up with you. So, do you know what? There's a terrible, terrible link we can do there, isn't there? Wake me up before you go, go. Who's our guest today, Eve? It's not George Michael. No. But it is Satnam Sanghera, Times journalist, very good writer. And he's written a book about his relationship to George Michael is that right? It is yeah it's it's about the meaning of George Michael it's called Tonight the Music Seems So Loud and if you're a George Michael fan it's a brilliant book there is so much detail in it and the shtick is that he hugely influenced Satnam's life and was quite the role model to him because Satnam saw in George Michael the same slightly removed from the rest of society place so he felt a kindred spirit there but god almighty the detail in it is just amazing there is so much stuff that i didn't realize it happened and the really weird thing eve as satnam says at the beginning of the book is that this is the only book about george michael isn't that incredible really and as he says you know there's somebody's written a whole book just about the lyrics of eleanor rigby uh you know there's so much out there in the music world about the great big icons of pop.

3:16And it just seems absurd that there isn't more about George Michael. And there really isn't. Isn't that weird? Yeah, it's weird. Anyway, lots to talk to Satinam about. We haven't done that interview yet, so it'll come your way in about, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes time. Shall we talk men's knickers? Please. Okay. Now, this comes in from Caroline, who says, I was dropping off to sleep whilst listening to the pod on Monday when Fee mentioned that she would be sorting out, my husband's knickers. I can, sorry, I'm sure you can imagine the excitement and the anticipation along with the shot of adrenaline that left me wide awake waiting in anticipation for my email to be read out.

3:54It didn't happen. And neither did it happen on Tuesday. Although by then I'd made the sensible decision not to listen whilst dropping off to sleep. We're both waiting in eager anticipation for the solution to this problem. So Caroline, our apologies, our apologies. This happens all of the time and it must be very annoying and very frustrating but here comes the original email. Can you ask the hive for help? My husband, who's not overweight, is struggling to find the right sort of knickers. In reality, he isn't. He's oblivious to the problem. That's a lovely marriage there for you. Now, he's of a more mature age and things are not as firm as they once had been.

4:32All the truck styles he wears give him an unflattering overhang. Now, if this was just written, there'd be an asterisk over truck and we're going to come back to that later. It's not a good look and it means he can't wear anything fitted after I've sent him back upstairs to change. Women have lots of choices and I've changed my knickers over the years to be more flattering or less unflattering. Comfort always being the primary factor, the G-string forever cast into the fires of hell. He's not so old that he needs to wear old men knickers, but something without a tight waistband would be better.

5:06Thank you for the great company. Right, so we're sending this out to the Hive for help. Now, what's a truck style, do you think? When I read that, I thought a truck style, that is intriguing. I've been 57 years on the planet. I mean, it's not that I've seen an awful lot of men in pants, but, you know, enough to know my styles. And I couldn't identify the truck style at all. I thought maybe it was a knicker that had been specifically designed so you didn't get kind of bad chafing if you were driving for long periods of time. But that just seems so specific. So I honestly don't know. I thought it was something that had a bit more room in the back.

5:43Oh. Interesting. In the boot. Okay, right. So powerful engine at the front. So room at the back. Eve, you should be. You should be. You should definitely think about designing men's pants. So the thing is, it's a typo. because Caroline then emailed back after she had emailed back to say I meant trunk, not truck, but I had a lot of fun thinking about it. And so did Eve. So it's the trunk style. I thought it was a man with a big booty.

6:23So we're punting this one out to the hive. Why aren't there more choices of male knickers? And it's true, isn't it? It is true. So you've got the Calvin Klein style pant. quite tight quite tight yep and uplifting and you've got the baggy boxer quite airy yeah i don't would you favor a boxer if you were a man well they seem quite a bit too loose i get a bit nervous and also they seem like they would bunch up under trousers very much so i don't understand them at all no i don't know what i'd go for to be honest with you no uh and but we have a choice of i mean heavens to Betsy, it's a confusing world out there.

7:04All the way from your thongs to your bikini to your runner ones and your anti-chafing ones and all that kind of stuff. So Caroline, you're absolutely right. These poor men, they need our help very much. So let's embrace the hive's experience of the male pant, especially later in life when things aren't as firm as they once were. And the unflattering overhang has started to emerge and God knows that happens to all of us. So, Caroline, I hope that this assages your adrenaline bumps and that we come up with some very good suggestions and I think maybe that's our next merchandising as well. We design the off-air with Jane and Fee and Eve truck pant.

7:51What was it? Supportive in more ways than one. Lots of booty at the back.

7:58She's got a filthy mind. She looks very innocent. Melanie in Chichester is one of our very regular emailers and you've had a terrible time. Melanie says, I was knocked over by a stranger's dog in the park on Saturday morning. It looks as if my leg has been fractured and I'm currently in bed with a knee brace waiting to go for a CT scan this afternoon. I feel sick to the stomach and just wanted to caution other members of the hive to be so careful because the owner concerned had no control and was miles away from their dog. It just sided me full on. The pictures of my knee joint. And the police are classifying it as an attack with injury.

8:38I think it's just a case of giving everybody out walking a wide berth. Incidentally, my dogs were on the lead and we were just walking along minding our own business. That is absolutely awful, Melanie. And I really hope that somebody does properly reprimand the dog owner responsible. because dogs on the loose, I mean, that can just end in absolute disaster. It has ended in some disaster for you, but you know what I'm referring to. Sometimes it gets even worse than that and it just shouldn't be allowed. And you can't protect yourself against a great big dog running full pelt at you and I hope that you got the CT scan, I hope you got the right treatment and I hope it mends.

9:20But you can't take your own dog for a walk now, you weren't doing anything wrong. oh that's really bad really really bad i've sent you in the direction eve of some of our emailing topics what would you like to start with we will be returning to the urinal just in case anyone thinks this is unfinished business i have one actually we'll do that when we get to it i better do this one from sophie that's titled record breaking eve hi when you started talking about eve breaking records i seriously thought you were going to say it was for the number of holidays and trips away she's had this summer long-time listener frequent emailer and i have to also just say my boyfriend's mum oh that's brilliant what's your boyfriend's mum called again sophie sophie okay greeting sophie she sent the email in about the saucepan lids right but there's no email nepotism going on here no you choose all the emails that i doubt yeah and and hand on heart i I can say I had absolutely no idea that Sophie was a relation to you.

10:20Just detail where you have been so far this year. I've been to, I'm still unsure, either Paxos or Paros. Yeah. I've been to St. Marlowe in France. Where are you off to next week? I go to Caffelonia tomorrow. Okay. And are there any other trips after that? I'm going to Turkey in August and Marseille in September. Well, I'm with Sophie. And you haven't even mentioned your bloody pirate weekend. And Hastings last weekend. When you get to our age, a weekend in Hastings is a trip, love. It's a very exciting holiday. It's not just something that you manage to do at the weekend. How old is your boyfriend's mum?

10:58Well, it's actually her birthday this week. But I don't want to speculate because I'm not 100 % and I don't offend her. Is she as old as Jane and I? She's in her 60s. Okay, right. As old as Jane. Not me. I'm very youthful. Very youthful, 57. Happy birthday, Sophie. Yeah. huge happy birthdays Sophie and feel free to contact us anytime anytime at all right should we head into the urinal we started talking about this it was almost in passing but it's developed a life of its own and the more you think about them the more you realize they're just extremely odd Leslie sends this in you were talking about dolls names last week my sister had a doll that she called Andrew Phillips.

11:49Despite it looking quite female, for some reason she named it after the small boy next door. Well, that's going to start a whole new thread and we're delighted that it will. And this is the bit about the urinals. When the female loos have been very busy and not very men have been present, I have occasionally used the men's loos instead of standing in a queue. The urinals are odd looking things. Do you remember the story of the pisoire in Clock Marie. It's a very funny story. Now, Eve and I had to look this up because, Leslie, we don't remember the story of the Pissoir de Clock Marie. So, here we go.

12:25We both Googled it and I'm going to provide you with an AI overview. Bear with me. The Pissoir is the central catalyst in Gabriel Chevalier's 1934 satirical novel Clock Marie. Now, you say Marie, Merle, sorry, Clock Merle. Is that right? Clock Merle. Clock Merle? Clock Merle. The Merle. Clock, Clock, Closh, Closh Merle. Let's go for it again. In Gabriel Chevalier's 1934 satirical novel, Closh Merle. I'm going to leave all of that in there. Please do. The mayor installs this public urinal directly outside the village church, sparking an uproar between the pious traditionalists and the progressive anti-clericals that eventually escalates into a national political scandal.

13:19The fictional town of Glöschmüll is based on the real-life village of Vaughan-Bosgelet in the Rhone Department of France. Vaughan-Bosgelet has fully embraced its literary fame, featuring a functioning, highly photographed commemorative pissoir in the town square. The story has been adapted for the screen multiple times, most notably as a classic 1948 French film, is anyone still awake? Directed by Pierre Chanel and a popular 1972 BBC TV comedy serial adapted by Galton and Simpson and narrated by Peter Ustinov. Right, that is the story of the Pissoir in Cloche-Merle. And, you know, there are a lot of people who hark back to the great days of cinema and comedy and say that we will never manage to repeat the creativity.

14:08Yves had to go and shout at somebody outside. Who was it? It was our very own exec. Was it Rosie Cutler? Running her mouth right outside the studio. Oh, MG. Oh, MG. And she's been bumped up to special executive director news level today. Gives her authority to create a ruckus outside the studio. She's just basically having a chat. Yes, a big, a loud one. A loud chat, OK. So, look, we're back with the piece of art in Klochmel. We just love the fact, Leslie, that you thought that we would remember it as if it was something massive that should be in all of our collective consciousness. It feels quite niche, but I'm all the better for knowing about it.

14:43Okay. Do you feel that way? Not really. Not really. I mean, it just sounds very odd. I mean, I might go and search out that movie. I'm not sure. I've still got season two of The Pit to go. It does seem a bit funny that the French have got a kind of culturally significant film about a urinal when actually their squatting loos are horrendous. I think they should be spending a bit more time on those. Would you agree? I do agree. I think you should take it up with someone. Next time I see Emmanuel, I'll look him eye to eye, and I can, and we'll have that conversation. Parmesan knobs, Sandra says. Jane asks, what was one to do with all of the leftover parmesan knobs?

15:26Here's what you can do with them. Store the leftovers in the freezer until you have enough to add to soup stocks. it adds umaminess. I've had that in Minas Geroni before. Really? I would never ever think to add a cheese to a soup. I mean I might grate a bit on top. It's more just the rind. Oh. Sort of towards the end and then you put it in and it diffuses into it. Okay. And then you've got to fish it out after I think. Oh right. Okay. Fair enough. I ate all of the cinnamon bark in a curry that was served here in the canteen on Tuesday. And it's had repercussions. You get that quiet, chomping down on it.

16:07It's just, it's nicer when they take it out. We've had so many spooky coincidences, and one of them is that we've received an email about frozen shoulders, and I spent most of last night talking about frozen shoulders with a lovely, lovely friend who we see very, very rarely, actually, because they live the other side of the world. And as our greeting to each other, how are you? I've got a frozen shoulder. How are you? Oh my God, I had one a couple of years ago. Yeah, and this one comes in from Sarah. And we have talked about this already on the podcast. Always happy to talk about it again though because you make some very good points in your email, Sarah.

16:46You may have had emails about this already, but I couldn't tell feeling cross at the thought of so many midlife women getting steroid injections for frozen. I can test I've failed at either. So many, you can leave that in. So many midlife women getting steroid injections for frozen shoulder. I suffered with two when I was about 50. I'm now 61. Various physio and rheumatologist appointments didn't help. And the steroid injections made no difference. It was agony. And anyone who's suffering has my full sympathy. My nearing retirement age rheumatology consultant shrugged his shoulders. Well, because he could, Steve.

17:29and discharge me, telling me it was normal for women of my age. Once I discovered Louise Newsome's Instagram account and started doing my own research, I went back to the GP, asked for HRT. I'd previously been told I wasn't menopausal because I was still getting periods, give me strength. I didn't know the term perimenopause then, and I don't think he did either. He had to look up what to prescribe in a book. My shoulders started to resolve within a month or so of taking HRT along with multiple other symptoms I hadn't even clocked were linked, having suffered from it for over a year and a half.

18:02It boggles my mind that the rheumatologist must have seen literally thousands of women of the same age and symptoms and not join the dots. The same for my similar age GP. Hopefully with the new age of social media, the message will get out more and younger doctors connect more so they recognise the symptoms. The day they start taking middle-aged women's health with the same seriousness as men's will be a day of celebration and it's a long time coming. And so you say sorry for the rant, not a rant and absolutely no need to apologise. They're all really, really good points and there's just so much evidence now that frozen shoulders are in direct correlation to, not caused by, but in correlation to the menopause because it's about losing our kind of juiciness in our muscles and particularly the muscles surrounding very important joints.

18:57And I'm with you on this. I don't understand how it can have been that so many male consultants would have seen hundreds and hundreds of women of the same age with the same symptoms. And also just not having been shot putters or overarm tennis servers or anything that might be to do with the shoulder and wearing it out. Just women who live completely normal lives, all pitching up with frozen shoulders that had happened at the same time. And it's not good enough to not have joined the dots. So let's get a massive, great big Sharpie pen and all join them together now in the hope that we can just find a quicker solution to it, actually, because that's the problem with frozen shoulders.

19:46They can last for years and they are incredibly unpleasant. so also Sarah has just been away with a coach full of teenagers in northern France Eve yeah I think she's a teacher either that or you got on the wrong bus the joys of the school trip says Sarah happy to say they all came back safe and sound and it only took me two days to recover the ability to sleep and speak sensible sentences and not head count everyone in sight. I mean, absolute awards of the century go to teachers who are taking teenagers abroad on school trips. Just so outnumbered.

20:33Yes, I mean, I think if we're lucky enough to have in our memory bank some of the teenage school trips that we went on, I'm just so sorry. I'm really, really sorry, particularly to Miss Appleby. They took us on a school ski trip, I think, to Andorra. when we must have all been about 14 or 15. And she was such a lovely young woman. She was young. She brought her mum with her, you know, as the kind of treat for her mum to be on holiday. I don't know what her mother must have made. Good kind of holiday. Of all of us. Oh, it's just ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. I was really sorry. It was probably quite helpful to the teacher as well to have her mum there when it all got a bit much.

21:13Yes. Yeah. Actually, I think probably most of the other girls were nice. it was I'm just taking it's just me anyway there we go we were lucky to go so 18 summers as well had you ever heard this expression I'd never heard that expression until you spoke about it on Monday and I did find it quite sad yeah it is I've heard it I think I've heard it in lyrics actually I'm not sure anyone's ever kind of said it to me when I had kids I know it's out there in the ether but it is sad actually isn't it and it's the it's the 10 great summers left once you hit whatever an age you know somebody says it to you and the 18 summers is when you have kids camilla was really upset about it i find the concept of 18 summers that you thankfully only brushed past earlier in the week pretty annoying it seems to me this is entirely a construct of social media designed to make women who work feel guilty about not having every summer with their kids two weeks at most plus a raft of unsatisfactory and expensive holiday camps around the edges and women who are at home feel guilty about perhaps finding the holiday longer and more tedious than they should it's not like women don't already have more than enough to feel guilty about and you say rant over as well look there's just absolutely no no judgment about the topics that you want to talk about on the podcast so they are I'm never ranting.

22:42Don't call it that. It's just us expressing our opinions. I think you make two excellent points there, Camilla. And that long, long, long school holiday. I mean, the idea that it is non-stop fun from the middle of July until the beginning of September is really, really hard work with kids. I think I used to start worrying about it in January. I'll get Christmas out of the way. and then from January onwards. And of course it changes when they're teenagers and they get a bit more independent. But if you are trying to juggle any kind of job as well, and I was only working part-time when the kids were at primary school, you are thinking, okay, well, right, it's five weeks, six weeks, and we're going to be away for one week, and then there's this week to do and that week to do.

23:31It is problematic, and other countries handle it in a completely different way, where their schools either really keep going and provide some kind of holiday camp activity. I know some primary schools have started to do that over here. Or you have the summer camp thing where it's accepted that kids head off. But here, we're still putting the puzzle together and it's not really matching up at the edges at all. So I hear you. There's also quite a lot about the Supergirl movie, which you don't want us to read out, Camilla, but I think we should. So could you get back in touch and just give us permission to say it?

24:11Because it's not a movie that I'm going to go and see. It's absolutely bloody awful. It's absolutely dreadful, awful, dreadful. What other ones did I hand over to you? Shall we talk silent discos? This comes in from Zoe. Dear Jane and Fee, on the subject of silent discos, I've been to a few, some professionally. I don't know. What's an amateur silent discos? just go and listen to your own Spotify playlist in the corner over there. Let us know more about that. None at a festival, although I do go to festivals, including Glastonbury every year, where I have seen them. The grandchildren's school, hire out the headsets.

24:47There are at least three channels. You don't all have to be dancing to the same song. You can change songs partway through. You can use your own streaming at home or wherever. I've been to parties for the grandchildren. I'm going to a silent disco next weekend for a daughter's 40th. It appeals to all ages. This one is being arranged professionally. I think I see what she means now. She's outsourcing her silent disco arrangements as opposed to putting one on herself. Right. I think. Okay, okay. And you're a fan of the silent disco, aren't you? I am quite a fan of them. I like attending them because I think it's, like Zoe said, it's really fun when you're flicking through the channels and then you find a really, really good song and you know your friends are going to love it and you're hitting them all on the arm I'm trying to convince them to be on the same channel as you so you can dance together.

25:35And also in Brighton, the month of May is the Fringe Festival and they do a silent disco through the streets of Brighton so you can be sat out enjoying the warmer evenings and a group of people will just go kind of like really, really dancing past you and it makes me laugh every single time. That sounds fabulous. Everyone gets into it so much. And do you try and guess what it is they're dancing to? Do you ever get it? Well, we'll never know. but also some of them will be going to different tempos so they look completely disorganised. But it's so much fun. I think it's wonderful. I just think it takes away the inhibition, doesn't it?

26:12Because you have got that fallback that somebody doesn't know what you're listening to so they can't judge the way that you're dancing. I think they're very liberating things, actually. Really liberating. Have you attended one? I have attended. Yes, I have. In fact, I've attended one at a festival, Eve. I'm very proud of that fact. Very, very proud indeed of that fact. It was the kind of festival where they also had a... I think the wellness area was bigger than the music area. So bad thing. Yeah, that kind of thing, that kind of thing. Lots of organic hay bales were available and a lot of kimchi, a lot of kimchi toppings.

26:51I think we've said this before, haven't we? But sometimes now the kind of food trucks that are available at festivals and the plethora of the fibre-maxing vegan alternatives, I think they do need to factor that in to the port-a-loo allocation. Right. Agreed. Yeah. I think the port-a-loos and the vegan generation need to get together and just have a chat. Here comes Jo. My lovely husband and I, or should that be me and my lovely husband? I don't know, you did an English degree. Don't ask me. I still can't get it right and I know it drives some people mad. But you've been given a choice there, so that's a difficult position to be in.

27:35Yeah. I have to say, of all of the things that I would get my knickers in a twist about, it's just not that. We got married ten years ago. We had the reception at a lovely village pub that was perfect in every way except for strict noise restrictions after 9.30pm. Well, after some pondering, we hit upon the perfect solution, you guessed it, a silent disco. We were both keen Glastonbury attendees in the past. It seemed a perfect nod to this. Our wonderful DJ was up for the challenge, so we hired all of the equipment. I made a playlist of my favourite songs. My husband did the same. On the night, once the noise restrictions kicked in, we handed out headphones.

28:10The DJ streamed our playlist to the two channels, red for mine, blue for my husband's. It was so fun watching our guests switch between our favourite songs, try to convince others to switch over, like Eve was saying, or dash around the dance floor to find a group also tuned into that playlist. It was a really incredible way to end our wedding day. In fact, I was so swept up in it that when my headphones stopped playing, I ran over to the DJ to say they weren't working and he had to break the news to me that they were fine, but the night was over. That's absolutely lovely. I thought you'd like to hear this story of the fun silent disco.

28:47Thank you for indulging me in my reminiscing. I'm a big fan of the pod and I listen regularly. We now live in Kelowna, BC. Canada. My mum is also a listener. She was featured last year as the lady who made the epic trip to North Berwick via the lifeboat. That was quite something, wasn't it? That was an amazing feat, yeah. Yep, and it's so nice that we both listen despite the distance. Well, Jo, it is always wonderful. We're always quite touched, actually, when we know that people are both listening and then it provides a chance to chat. You're probably quite rude about us. We understand that's all part of the deal.

29:25But don't be too rude, OK, because it's karma and it might come back. Can I just add something, actually, from the Pissoir in whatever email? Because Leslie went on to say in her third paragraph, my grandmother was in service to the royal family. We're not going to let this go without many, many more questions, Leslie. Many of the staff used to travel with the family to Balmoral or Sandringham. And when it was shooting season, my grandmother said so many pheasants were brought to the kitchen. The staff got so fed up with preparing them, they used to stuff many of them into the boilers to get rid of them.

30:04Isn't that awful? That is bad. Isn't that awful? So I'm going to keep that because I'm going to read that to Jane. Sure like that. Yeah, she's very, very... She's the more monarchy-adjacent member of this podcasting community. And I mean, I just think that they're just, I mean, just as people, I'm sure they're great, but it's an institution. They're profligate wasters. And that's just a tiny example of it. I mean, the poor pheasants. They're not on the planet to be shot by somebody who inherited their land, their title and their wealth. And then for it to be so unnecessary, I just shoved into a boiler to heat a great big clanky radiator in a room where somebody probably makes another person who's going to inherit lots of money, land and wealth.

30:56Shall we move on? Shall we move on to a happy Thursday? Sorry. It has been quite a long hot summer. No, I think you're quite right there. And it needed airing. But let's go on to George Michael. Might just be a bit dehydrated-y.

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32:19Now, George Michael had a massive amount of hits as a solo artist, and with Wham! he sold over 150 million records. With Wham! he had a total takeover of the 1980s. He sang on four number one hits in 1984 alone. He went on to become one of the world's most intriguing, talented, adored and targeted musical stars. and his was an important voice, the way he wrote his music, the way he talked about his sexuality, the way that he treated triumph and adversity. And he also had a cracking sense of humour, saying of his 1980s hairstyle, some days I made the cover of the tabloids, some days Princess Di made the covers of the tabloids, some days I think they just got us muddled up.

33:04Satnam Sanghera absolutely loved George Michael and he's written a superbly detailed book about him called Tonight the Music Seems So Loud. It's lovely to have you on the programme. Why did you love George Michael quite so much? For me, I got into him in the 90s when almost no straight men around me were into him. And I think for me, it was his sensitivity. You know, he was a great role model for a sensitive teenager. You know, without going into the area of being a goth or Morrissey, he just seemed to have feelings when all the men around me had seemed to have no feelings whatsoever. and I loved his voice as well I thought he had one of the best voices in history of pop and do you know what it was so lovely to actually hear his uh spoken voice and we'll come back to that in a moment and but I'm I'm interested in that kind of influence that he had on you how did all of your other friends around you treat your love of George Michael general mockery within my family and amongst my friends.

34:08I've noticed that the mockery has been consistent throughout my life, but it has declined. Like the piece I wrote for the Times about the book, there was only one abusive comment saying I was like a teenage girl. Whereas when he died, I wrote an obituary, I'd say half the comments were quite abusive. And you mentioned that he had the same haircut as Princess Diana. And I think his reputation is a bit like Diana's in that we gave Diana and George a very hard time in their lives, during their lifetimes when they are around. But afterwards, we can all recognise that actually they were pretty amazing, weren't they?

34:43Yeah. And I think it's a very good comparison to make, actually, because there was something in both of those figures where perhaps we thought because they were in the public eye that it was OK for all of us to think whatever we wanted to think about them. And of course, they were just trying to get on with their lives very much in the public eye. Yeah, and one of the stories I discovered for the book is that actually Diana was in love with George Michael, basically, and didn't, I don't think, realise he was gay. And George thought about it and realised that actually, if anything happened, it would be the biggest tabloid story in history and kind of distanced himself from Diana.

35:24But that is an amazing possibility that could have happened. It is, isn't it? Tell us a bit more about the book then. Why do we find you on a bus in North London and where does it take you? Well, I ended up trying to reconstruct George Michael's story in unconventional ways, I guess. I tried to avoid the clichés. And one of the amazing things about George Michael is that he wrote Careless Whisper, one of the biggest pop songs of all time, when he was just 17 on a bus whilst travelling to his evening job as a DJ at a very dodgy Greek restaurant in Northwood, in North London. So I went to that restaurant, which is now a used car sale room.

36:01but they still had the disco ball that the restaurant used to use and they still remember him there. Right, well, so they should and so they should. And tell us a little bit more about his family. They had come to this country, his dad had set up a restaurant. His dad didn't really want George to go into the music business but he did give him a chance to prove that he might be able to, didn't he? Yeah, I mean, I think people forget that George Michael and Andrew Ridgely were both the child of migrants. I mean, Andrew's father was Egyptian and Jewish and Yemeni, and George's father was Greek Cypriot.

36:35And like most immigrant fathers, he wanted his son to become an accountant or a doctor or do something professional and reliable. But he gave George a year to basically, or six months was, I think, to get his act together and give music a shot. And amazingly, George did it, you know, before those six months were over. we forget how young George Michael was when he had his first hit and how he was hugely famous from the age of around 19. And how did he at first deal with all of that success and all of that fame? I mean, it is integral to the story that he had his friend and Andrew Ritchie was his friend, wasn't he, by his side.

37:16They went through a bit of that together. Yeah, I think initially he desperately wanted the fame, enjoyed it. but I mean there's new Wham in China filming coming out in a few weeks time and you can see in his face that actually maybe he's bitten off more than he can chew and maybe this global fame is not something he wants and his fame became insane I mean at one point he had a fan living underneath his floorboards he had women claiming that he'd fathered their children which was obviously not true you know he had people like Princess Diana being starstruck by him and if you think of all those people who were that famous at that time, Prince, Madonna, Michael Jackson, they all died pretty much for the same reasons apart from Madonna, you know.

38:04I think it's partly because that level of fame is unbearable. Yeah, we actually heard so much more about the very, very decent side of George's life after his death, didn't we? His extraordinary philanthropy, which was both very generous but very personal at the same time. Yeah, he was an incredible secret philanthropist. He gave away tens of millions of pounds. We're still finding out now who he gave money to, but almost always insisted that he wasn't given credit. And he has a famous lyric in Praying for Time where he complains of how charity has become a coat we wear twice a year. And I love that about him because so much charity giving nowadays days is so show-offy and he did it secretly and even now his estate makes a huge amount of money 53 000 pounds a week i think but i think a lot of it still goes to charity yeah uh would you say that he didn't actually mean to hide his sexuality i was very interested to read in the book that actually a lot had been written pretty openly about what george michael did and who george Michael spent his time with and the relationship that he had with Anselmo Filippo.

39:22But in a sense, you kind of convey the fact that people wanted to ignore it because they wanted to carry on a story that they were enjoying about George Michael. They didn't really want to accept George for who he was. Yeah, it's very complicated. We forget how blind we all were to just gay people in general you know all the people we think of now as always being out were not out so elton john was married kenny everett had a wife freddie mercury had a girlfriend pet shop boys weren't out and there's a simple reason for that in that the tabloids made it impossible to be in the public eye and to be gay you know and george had a choice basically whether to for him to be successful and to be acclaimed for his incredible talent or to be in the closet.

40:14And I think it was a very difficult choice for a very young man who was still trying to work out who he was. Yeah, but he didn't hide it, did he? No. He didn't marry somebody and, you know, pretend to live a life. He just didn't send a press release to the tabloids announcing it. Yeah, amazingly, he was cruising as a teenager, you know, and what I find remarkable is that even though he was given in such a hard time for his ambiguous sexuality. He was campaigning on AIDS from a very early age when it was a very difficult time to do so. Every time he did it, the tabloids would ask, oh, have you got AIDS?

40:51Are you gay? But he still carried on. And I think that in a quiet way, he was actually quite brave. Yeah. So later came his indiscretion in a public toilet in Los Angeles. Just remind us of what happened and some of the immediate reaction to it. yeah I mean I find it remarkable that now I mean I think it wouldn't happen now he wouldn't be treated like that by the press partly because of the way he owned it and I think you played that interview he did with CNN straight afterwards and he did an incredible thing in that he went on TV and said you don't get to say if I'm humiliated or not you know I choose what I am ashamed of and I choose not to be ashamed that was such a powerful message to give not only to just to gay people but people in general you know what an amazing lesson to give to young people and he then sorry and i was just going to say he he then followed it up with an absolute masterstroke didn't he because he put it in his music and he made what could either be well in fact it was it was both a comedic but profound video yeah outside that's one of my favorite songs and you know there's a line in it you know because he got community service for his his act of uh indiscretion in that toilet and one of the lines is i would service the community but i already have you see and he was so funny and he called his uh greatest hits album at the time ladies and gentlemen after toilets and he was just so funny about it i think that's maybe that's why we were so shocked when he died because he'd gotten over so many, you know, potential PR disasters.

42:26And he was always articulate and always funny until the end. Yeah, he referred to one of his less successful albums as Listen Without Purchasing, which is, if you know George Michael's back catalogue, it's a very, very funny gag. One of your chapters is titled Someone With Some Kind of Integrity in which you detail another thing that you had in common with him, which was hard talk. Now, I did read your description of your interview to Stephen Sacker, which you had found a little bit intimidating to be on the receiving end of Stephen Sacker's journalism. Is that correct? It's nicer talking to you.

43:05Let's just say that. Well, Stephen's just a he's a far more forensic journalist than I am. And so it would be different. But George Michael went on hard talk as well, didn't he? Yeah, it gets forgotten, but he was one of the first people to speak out publicly about the Iraq war. You know, and at the time he was lambasted. I mean, he was on the front page of The Sun for being a coward. Salon Cowell called him a coward. Noel Gallagher said that how dare he speak about Iraq, given he didn't tell anyone that he was gay. I mean, these are unbelievable comments. But now I would say he's he's anti-Iraq activism has dated very well.

43:45You know, I think everyone agrees that Iraq was a disaster, but he was far ahead. But there were so many issues that he spoke out on, like apartheid, apartheid, that now have dated incredibly well. And it's also unusual to have a pop star taking these positions. I mean, who does that now? I can't think of any pop stars except perhaps Dua Lipa, who speaks about politics in the same way as George Michael. And is that because we live in different times? If George Michael was still alive now and was making political comments, how do you think that that would be regarded? I think he would still be doing it.

44:23But I think now because of social media, it's so hard to keep everyone on board. So you end up having very bland pop stars like Ed Sheeran. OK. Ed is a very regular listener to Times Radio Satdown. Be very careful. Now, John says, a guy who wrote a book about the gifted George Michael who's hardly mentioned his music. That's probably my fault, actually, John, for not asking Satnam more about the music. Sometimes it's difficult in an interview to just talk about music, but it's absolutely there in your book. I learnt so much about how George Michael made his music, including how dexterous he was.

45:00Is it true, Satnam, that he played every single instrument on a different corner? Yes, and also on Everything She Wants And also on Last Christmas Each engineer famously asked to play the Sleigh Bells on Last Christmas And George said no Because he was a perfectionist Bit of a control freak I mean, he also famously auditioned 12 saxophone players For Careless Whisper Rejected them all even though he couldn't play the saxophone himself He spent 12 hours recording the vocals for Kissing a Fool He spent six months recording Fast Love. And you think that is maybe excessive, but then you hear the different versions and you're like, actually, you're right.

45:44There's something about the final version, which is special. And he had that, he had that ear. And I don't think he got that credit in his lifetime. I think a lot of people thought, oh, this is just disposable pop music, probably written by someone else. But often he was doing absolutely everything. It's proved to be far from disposable, hasn't it? and in fact there's a whole new generation who absolutely love George Michael. Yeah, I mean I did a talk at a North London school recently about the Empire, my other subject and they asked me what I was writing and I said, oh yeah, I'm writing a book about George Michael.

46:18You won't know it, it's going to be called Tonight the Music Seems Aloud and these were 10-year-olds and they sang the song back to me because Careless Whisper is now a meme on TikTok as his father figure. Last Christmas is probably one of the most successful songs of all time. He has the highest hit rate in the history of the US Billboard 100, higher than the Beatles. I mean, eight number ones, 19 entries. And I play this game when I walk around any shopping centre in the world and I count how long it is before I hear a wham or a George Michael song. And it's never more than 40 minutes. Okay.

46:54I tell you what, you're a fun guy to hang out with sat there, aren't you? Look, it's better than banging on about the British Empire anyway. Which is your favourite era of George Michael's music? Oh, the 90s. I think Listen Without Prejudice. His voice was at its peak. His songwriting was incredible. And yeah, I mean, what a time. No one else was really into George, but you know what? I think it's dated quite well. Yeah, I would agree with you there. It seemed astonishing to me, Satnam, that as you detail at the beginning of your book, You're in a category of one as an author writing about George Michael.

47:33And I mean, given his cultural significance, aside from his musical back catalogue, why haven't more people written more about him? Yeah, it is weird. I mean, you've got hundreds of books about Dylan Bowie, even Taylor Swift. And I think it's because he was a contradictory guy. You know, he made disposable pop music at certain times, but he was critically acclaimed. He was in the closet, but then came out in the boldest way possible. He was self-deprecating, also egotistical. He sued Sony, but then went back to Sony. He was a massive secret philanthropist, but also was a member of a certain number of tax avoidance schemes.

48:12So he's a very contradictory guy. And I think for that reason, I think critics have struggled to make sense of him. But I think now, 10 years after his death, the world is ready to celebrate George Michael, hopefully. Yeah, I completely agree with you there. Where were you when you found out that he died? Oh, it was Christmas, wasn't it? You probably remember. Everyone remembers, I think. And it was Boxing Day. I remember he died on Christmas Day, but I had to make the Boxing Day lunch. And I couldn't because I had to write a 3000 word obituary for the Times. And I remember my girlfriend at the time and my family giving me a bit of a hard time.

48:52but my mother didn't. My mother who barely listens to pop music I think mums have a way of knowing what matters and she really understood how upset I was and I think lots of us were really upset that day and I think a lot of us felt that we hadn't celebrated him enough in his lifetime. Yeah, I would be one of those, absolutely. Do you think that he was happy, Sat Nam? I think it's very hard to be happy when you're that famous. It's like being mentally ill. Plus, he was a very sensitive boy. Plus, you have to hide who he was for long periods of his career. But the thing is, it gave us beautiful art.

49:36I mean, so many of his songs are about wanting to be himself, about wanting to be free. He wrote two hit records called Freedom. It's pretty clear he was frustrated, but it gave us beautiful music. So we were lucky. Yeah. Lucky less so. And if he had lived, what do you think that he would have gone on to do musically? I torture myself about this as a fan, but I just think he had a highly developed sense of cringe about his back catalogue. So he never played his Wham records, really, apart from a couple of songs. I think if he'd lived, he'd be playing Glastonbury next year and he'd be playing Club Tropicana and Young Guns and he would be seeing the joy that inspired not only in people of our generation, but also in a whole new generation of fans.

50:23And he would have learned to appreciate that in the way that Lionel Richie and Elton John have embraced their back catalogues. I would have loved to have seen that. Yeah. Gosh, you're giving me tingles saying all of that because you're absolutely right. George Michael headline in Glastonbury. I mean, you can see it, can't you? You can absolutely see it. And as you've already said, everybody in the crowd from, you know, 10 to 100 would find that they knew all the words. He is that kind of an artist, isn't he? Yeah, that's part of the reason why I think there's not been many serious books about him, because he's kind of part of our culture.

50:59No one remembers when they first heard George Michael, because he's just always around. He's still one of the most played artists on British radio. So therefore, we don't analyse him. Yeah. Well, you've done a great, great job. Rob, it's an absolutely fascinating book. It is packed full of detail. I didn't realise, and I won't give away too many details, that was it 70 ,000 people who had their Whamageddon completely ruined at Northampton FC because they played last Christmas over the tannoy? That's the truth? Yeah, I hate Whamageddon. We should celebrate last Christmas. Greatest song ever written, I think.

51:33Is it? Well, greatest Christmas song. OK, yeah, greatest Christmas song. I'll allow you that. Satnam Sanghera it's always lovely to talk to him he is the best-selling author of Empire Land and now we hope the best-selling author of Tonight the Music Seems So Loud now Jane is up in Liverpool which is why you've had the good ship even fee for the last couple of days we very much hope for her return on Monday she just had to go up and make sure that her dad was okay no panic no huge alarm but thank you for your emails on the subject so we hope to regroup in our fully formed triumvirate and do send some emails in over the weekend janeandfee at times.radio and I'm sorry again if we have royal listeners to the programme I didn't mean to pick on you or did I?

52:40Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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