Elizabeth Banks

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0:43Well, Elizabeth Banks, welcome to One Night Stand. Thank you for having me. No, I'm thrilled to have you here. Have you always been a big reader? I have been a big reader, yeah. I remember starting as a kid, I want to say fourth, fifth grade. There was a chart on the wall. you would get a little star or like a sticker, you know, next to your name for how many books you read. Oh, I love that. And I wanted to win that. I know. I was the same. I was definitely activated by a kind of reward complex and competitiveness. I mean, I love disappearing into books anyway. And, you know, you have to remember when I was growing up, we didn't have, there weren't Kindles and phones and all of that.

1:22So everything was in your hand. And so it was I did a lot. I played a lot of games and a lot of board games and I did a lot of puzzles and I read a lot. And so I've carried that through to my adulthood. Yeah. What type of books did you like reading as a kid? I think as a kid, I loved more fantasy, like A Wrinkle in Time. I loved relating to young people, young heroines or heroes, you know, on quests. I always thought that, you know, there was this book, Island of the Blue Dolphins, that by Scott O'Dell that I loved as a young person, like, you know, kid on an island. It's sort of, nowadays it would be Life of Pi or something, you know?

2:06Like that vibe I just thought was so cool and special. And yeah, I just - I love that. I was always into more like boarding school. I don't know why, like these, I suppose like Harry Potter in a way, but those types of stories. But yeah, the fantasy ones were great. Well, I also read the dirt, you know, the ones we weren't really allowed to read, like Flowers in the Attic, the B.C. Andrews series. I remember being like scandalized by B.C. Andrews, but loving it. Did you used to go to the library to pick stuff up or would you get like... We did go to the library, yes. The Berkshire Athenaeum, as it was called in my town up in Massachusetts.

2:45And my mother is a huge reader and she loved, there was a used bookstore. you could buy a book for a dollar and she would just devour books and novels. And so I think also I really learned it from her. Are your kids readers? My kids are decent readers, but I will say it's a struggle. It's hard. It is. Yeah. It's a really different vibe. I keep actually trying to tell my kids if you only read what they assign in school, you're not going to be a great reader. You're not going to be a great communicator. You're not going to do as well in English. You're not going to have as big of a vocabulary. You're not going to understand like poetry and, you know, poeticism about life.

3:26And so I've been encouraging them more and more. And what's great is my kids are now 13, 15. And so we can actually read a lot of the same things. So one of the reasons I picked nine stories is because my son just read Catcher in the Rye. And I love Holden Caulfield. and I loved that story again a hero a hero you know coming to New York City on the train the adventure of it I think my kids can really relate to that they love coming to New York and they get to take the subway by themselves and like go around you know and going to Central Park and seeing the places where Holden Caulfield was I think it's really cool and exciting for them to be really put it into their real life is so cool but Holden Caulfield for like me and especially as I got older as an older woman it's like J.D.

4:13Salinger's voice is I think very important in Americana but Nine Stories had characters that really spoke to me yeah you know whereas Holden Caulfield spoke to me a little maybe less yeah I know what you mean well maybe let's start with Nine Stories then by Salinger tell me what you love about his collection you know I haven't I haven't actually read it in a long time but I you know I when I was reading sort of American classics I think of like John Updike or like Run Rabbit and Run and Nine Stories to me just evoked so much imagery of American repression in the 50s especially for women I have like a visual of like of one of the characters sitting in like a window I want to say it's in like Connecticut or something you know I grew up in Massachusetts in the northeast I feel like J.D.

5:06Salinger's characters are all sort of steeped in that sense of post-war Americana that is so important also to feminism. And I also think J.D. Salinger's presentation of masculinity is really interesting. Yeah. Whereas Updike is like, they're such dudes. J.D. Salinger's men are a little softer. They're more complex. They're more vulnerable. more vulnerable. They're more open in a way, but they also, you get the sense that that's a struggle, you know, that the struggle of like being open. So I just think what he says about masculinity in America, especially the trauma in post-war America in the fifties, as we were rebuilding and what that looks like and how to put together like a perfect family and how it's never perfect there's always so much going on under the surface and that's what I love about his storytelling I always think that's because my dad's father was in fought in World War II obviously like British and he was in North Africa and he died before I was born and I'd say to my dad also as I got older and I became more curious because I studied history at university I'd be like tell me what did he say about it he was like never wanted to talk about it that's right yeah and I was like no no but you must have like asked some questions at some point and he was like My father fought in Vietnam and did not speak about it for 20 something years.

6:34That's crazy, isn't it? And interestingly, it was when I don't think he even realized this, but you could Google like his ship and you could see like the USS Boston in the he was in the Navy, my father, and you could see what happened when what the battles were, et cetera, et cetera. And so I got a sense of what of the trauma that that must have been mostly from researching what happened, not from personal stories he told me. And then as he was older and, you know, has gotten more open and I think has really come more to terms with it. I think it just was something he didn't want it to infect our very young lives when we were kids.

7:19and I think it was something he struggled with you know for a long time that's I mean that's one of the themes I thought when I was reading many of these stories in nine stories is that the way that children are kind of this anchor to this like before world for these men who have been like broken a little bit and especially in A Perfect Day for Banana Fish that relationship with the little girl I know I think also what's interesting is when you're a young reader and you start to read about these parents, these adults, it opens your eyes to the fact that adults don't know everything, that they're super, right?

7:55It's like we put our parents on pedestals. We have no understanding of their inner life. We don't understand their world. And I think for me, so even reading Catcher in the Rise, young person, it's about a young person. It's about, you know, it's about somebody losing their innocence, right? And the innocence in this, there's it's gone you know it's gone yeah these people are dealing with stuff and I think and they're still having to parent and they're still having I don't know there's just something um it's that repression of feeling yeah that I find very moving as people are the stoicism of it yeah very moving I also I loved the um the first episode of the miniature wife because I feel like now we're in this moment where we all talk about our feelings a lot more but you also see in that first episode in the first few scenes like how actually people have almost learned the language of therapy as a kind of defense to be like well I'm doing this now I'm you know I'm considering my feelings and I'm processing and it's like no you just erected a whole nother set of barriers around yourself totally I like to say like these are two characters who are avoiding their problems by doing all the like textbook things you do.

9:09Exactly. To quote work through your problems, but it's just another level of avoidance. That's exactly it. And the characters in The Miniature Wife, this married couple, long time married couple, clearly it's not working for them. And, you know, they've gone from a partnership into a competition. And, you know, I think we all can relate to like keeping that tally. If you're married, there's always the like, Like, well, I did this and you did this and I'm doing drop off and you're doing dishes and I'm doing money. I work. And you're like, you can't be in a competition. It's got to be a partnership if it's meant to be healthy.

9:44And this couple has clearly fallen out of partnership. And I mean, they're both narcissists and they're both very problematic. But the real thing that's going on is they're just avoiding having any real conversation about what is happening to them. And the crisis of being shrunk is the thing that actually, because that becomes so immediately you have to deal with it. It has to be dealt with. The circumstances, you cannot avoid it. No. It's life or death all of a sudden. And so that crisis actually brings out first all of their worst qualities, but then all of their best qualities. And so I really, I'm excited for people to be seeing that.

10:24I read the short story that it's based on and it's so fun and trippy and weird. But also all from the man's perspective, the husband's perspective. So everything, all of Lindy's sort of life and backstory and all of that was sort of created by the showrunners. Yeah. Jennifer Ames and Steve Turner, who did an amazing job. And it was a great collaboration to sort of figure out who these people are. But I also love the tone. The tone is, you know, it takes an absurdist look at very real feelings that people have of being made, you know, to feel small in a relationship. I think we all have been in a power dynamic, whether it's in a loving relationship or at work or with a boss or with a parent.

11:07you know the other thing that's going on I think nine stories speaks to this too is like parenting you you really shouldn't you can't visit your traumas on your kids right you know I play a woman who wrote an incredible Pulitzer Prize winning novel about her childhood with a I see mother who was very hard, you know, hard to feel validated by, hard to feel loved by. And I think that plays out in, you know, and then you come to find out my husband, last played by Matthew McFadden, was not well loved, you know, by his father. I gave no validation to his dreams and didn't really understand him. And so we're just two people trying to like find the love of our parents and not pass down uh their bad behavior to our own daughter you know and like what how do we be the best versions of ourselves for our daughter Lulu who I think also has the best and worst of us in her and so I found that to be an amazing angle in the story you know a layer in the story I also love that thing for women of when they have something big or a big success early in the career like that sort of feeling that it can give of like waiting for the other shoe to drop that so whereas I feel like a man sort of more typically will just be like well that's proof yeah started for life now whereas I just feel like every other woman I know would be like well that must I must have got lucky that one time I got lucky you that insecurity creeps in you know I also think when you have a big I remember when I directed Pitch perfect too and it opened to this biggest opening of a musical and this and that and the whole thing and and I thought well that's I'll never do anything that big again that won't you know and and that can paralyze you right or you can just be like keep going I don't you know I happy to have it and it's maybe it maybe I won't do anything else but do I still think something to say I also think motherhood for women, there's parenting, and I really try to talk about parenting because I think it's really important not to distinguish so that we can create a more equal society.

13:29But motherhood is – there's real pressure in motherhood and in, like, you know, sacrifice. Nobody can blame you if your child isn't doing well, right, that you don't take on your children's, you know. I don't know. You just want to – I think she gets a little lost in this notion of, like, well, I had a job, but now my job is taking care of my child. and that's a really big job and I have to be really good at it and so what is the balancing act and I think it allows her to sort of put aside um something that she's again scared of yeah you know yeah totally fearful of failure yeah and it's also hard mothers and daughters like the gen like it is it's yeah it's hard I'm one of three girls and like we all yeah the the dynamics between mother and father, it's different.

14:25I'm one of three girls too. Oh, are you in the order? I'm the oldest. Okay. And I have a baby brother, prince of the family. Oh, interesting. Do you identify as an eldest daughter? A hundred percent. Oh really? All of the tropes are true. Amazing. I sort of share, I have like an Irish twin and my younger sister, Sarah. And so I think we can sort of co-do it, you know, but we definitely feel the pressure of - Yeah. No, I know what I'm saying. caregiving and and figuring it out and yeah I don't think my father still has bought himself a plane ticket in 25 years really yeah yeah I don't he wouldn't know how to work Expedia interesting it's just like I'd like to visit we're like okay we'll arrange everything yeah because why he's completely capable I know but that's what we do isn't it do we just arrange it all yeah get it done it's interesting you see that even in the um for Esme with love and squalor that story the the esme is the sort of older sister to this boy and like both their parents are dead and i don't know you can already see she's falling into that trope of having to like look after everyone yeah yeah smooth the edges of the world 100 yeah it's a lot also i feel like esme as a name is so popular all of a sudden yes and i was reminded like oh no jd salinger had esme yeah certainly this is 51 52 53 yeah 53 yeah yeah no it's brilliant i loved i loved reading them and I love the restraint in the writing like it's so like punches you in the gut this is what I mean by stoicism I think you're that's the other word I was looking for but yeah it's restraint in that sense of there was so much collective trauma and I think we're all dealing with it right now so much I mean I like to remind people like a million people died in COVID yeah fuck yeah a million people died in covid and we are all just like like we're we're so deep in this we're being traumatized i mean did you see that clip that was going viral on twitter because it was from a news show like business news channel where they were saying talking about trump's statement that an entire civilization was going to disappear and they were like and the host was like so a statement like that do you is that an upsell for the market or a downsell for the market and everyone was like what is happening what are we talking like sometimes every now and then it's sort of hitching between the eyes and you're like imagine every child in tehran who thought they were gonna be bombed last night i know to whatever it was two months ago i don't know when this will air but this is right after that statement came out and that like you know i i was a child of the 80s we feared nuclear war we thought we had to get under our desks and like practice and now we have we're traumatizing children with shooter drills like we are not taking care of kids what are we doing as a society as humanity is just we're our obligation to the next generation just feels like it has fallen by the wayside I don't understand what we're doing to young people and simultaneously I feel like parenting is so hard I don't have kids but I'm 37 so loads of my friends do and both my sisters do and I have to say my friends who have kids do not make me want them because it just seems so like I don't know like I mean obviously they love their children but I feel like the sort of not competition but the sort of pressure to be doing it right there's all this material now about what good parenting is and the pitfalls whereas I feel like we were just like shoved out and it was like get outside don't die see you at five yeah I take very little advice parenting advice yeah from well from anyone who doesn't have like adult children who are not in jail and not drug addicts and are doing it like are well adjusted and uh contributing to humanity you know what I mean so like anyone who's like got like a seven-year-old is like I'm like you didn't you don't your children are going to change everything's going to be different we get them through puberty get them through you know high school we can talk when they're 27.

18:20I agree agree I completely agree I think that's there because otherwise it just It just makes it seem like, I just feel like my friends are sort of caught between being like, I want them to know how to use technology, but not too much screen time. I want them to watch TV, but not too much TV. I want them to, I'm like, oh my God, it sounds awful. Yeah, I do think it's important to, I really think that life is actually so much, we've complicated it. We have, I agree. It's actually very simple. It's like, go outside, see the sunshine. Touch grass. Touch grass, be in nature. Take a walk, call your grandmother.

18:49Exactly. Feel love. Yeah. Have a tradition, have a Friday night supper. Yeah. Like cook together. Exactly. The basics. Watch a proper movie, not like the... Just sit together, be with your friends. Yeah. Try to be with them in real life. That's hard though. Yeah, it's true. Next, I thought we could talk about The Road by Cormac McCarthy. Speaking of parenting. Yeah, literally the most traumatic version of parenting going. Tell me why you love this book. You know, I'm not a huge sci-fi person. And I'm not. And, you know, despite The Hunger Games, which I love and adore and obviously have a real kinship with, the post-apocalyptic world building thing that I think is popular in so much fiction.

19:35What I love about what Cormac McCarthy did in The Road is so it's post-apocalyptic. There's a little sense of sci-fi, like futurism, like when is it? Where is it? Is it in the past? Is it in the future? I think it's a little hard to even pin down, but there's this sense of the post-apocalyptic world and what it looks like. And at the end of the day, what we're talking about, the simplicity of just caregiving and humanity and like what, you know, survival. And when you get to the moment in that book when you realize that it's just a father trying to be the best parent, I found it so devastating.

20:14Yeah. I think I've never cried harder and I cry I am an easy cry easy cry I cry at every book I read these days um the road took my breath away yeah it just knocked my socks off yeah the simplicity of having a coca-cola yeah and the dialogue the way it's just like it's so short but you know Just so concise. And also the sense of, again, there's a huge trauma happening. And this father is just protecting their child as best they can from the trauma and the danger with the simplest acts of love and care, but also passing down survival skills. And I just, it's, I think it's one of the greatest books ever written.

21:13Yeah. It's also the child is really caring for the adult in the sense of like with his moral kind of character in the sense of like, you really feel that the kid is sort of reminding the father of like the before. And like the before. And also I say this you know you were just bringing up parenting and tomorrow morning is knocking stock your fridge now how about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe or white chocolate mocha whichever you choose delicious coffee awaits find starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries i think that the young people are the only thing giving me any sense of hope.

21:52Yeah. Yeah. You know, that there will be they'll go on and they'll hopefully figure out climate change and income inequality. And, you know, I don't know. They're they're seeing it so full on, like what works and what doesn't work and and what they're native to. the online world, AI, shooter drills, like they don't remember the world before these things. They don't know what it used to be like. And so I guess they're just building a whole new version of this. And, you know, I, the Artemis II mission has also been very moving to me in the past week. And I think is sort of the best of humanity and science and, and, and caregiving and just these people that are like out in the world looking you know looking at us looking at humanity from this whole other vantage point and i it's just reminds me of you know that that feels like what that's the feeling of what's happening in that book despite all the danger surrounding them all the time in that book because it's the worst of humanity and the best of humanity yeah all in one story so true and that and like yeah what what are you going to decide to do who are you going to decide to be yeah when the shit hits the fan who are you yeah and what are you passing on yeah and that's why i just think there's there's actually so much hope in the book i agree with that yeah i think there's so much hope and so much sort of belief that it's kind of worth keeping going yes yeah and that there's some there are there's there are caregivers yeah he has to get his childhood yeah he wrote the book in six weeks which I think is sort of crazy do you ever create like that when you're working on creative projects do you ever like go through really intense bursts yes do you interesting I find actually it's the only way that I work because um well yes and no I love a deadline yeah me too I need the pressure of the deadline I need a I need a deadline um but But I also find that there are just, there are periods where I feel intensely and things come to me and I'm just like, you know, I'm going to, look, I also think our technology makes it easier now.

24:13Like I'll just start doing voice notes. Like, you know, I'll just start talking to myself and, you know, getting it written down and think, well, I'll edit this later. But like there's some feeling or there's something that's hit me or there's something that's made me feel like there's a story I want to tell or something I want to do. And it just like I feel very fertile and then it will fade, you know, or life gets busy or something takes over. So I find that when I am feeling creative, I actually have to pay attention and do it right then and there. Because I'll tell myself, like, I'll think of something in the shower.

24:52I'll think of something at night when I'm going to sleep and I'll think, da, da, da. And then the next morning or two hours later, it's gone. It's gone. I know. It's terrifying though, isn't it? It's left me. So I feel like when it strikes me, I actually really do need to write it down. And then do you carve out time for yourself to really go deep on it when you can? If I need to. Okay, yeah. Because I'm also someone who gets to, as an actor, be in someone else's world with their words and their story. Yeah. And it's very distracting. So when I don't have that to do is when I feel like, oh, I need to create my own things.

25:33That's why I like directing. Directing is such a big project. It's so much problem solving and storytelling and what's going to support the story and who's going to come along for the ride and what collaborators do I bring along. And I love making that village that's going to all, who's all their creative juices then feed my creative juices and then all their questions feed into, like oh I need to actually have answers for this yeah okay what what do I want to say and how it focuses me in a really intense fun way as a storyteller yeah that's awesome well you mentioned the Hunger Games and I know that came out around a similar time as uh The Road and actually when I was googling the two together lots of people have sort of compared them I guess because it was this kind of post and actually when I was rereading some of The Road in preparation for this I opened towards the end and the boy was talking to his father and he was like well the odds are not in their favor and the dad was like the aunt aren't in their favor he's like yeah they're not in their favor and I was like whoa this is too surreal that is surreal I don't know if Suzanne was thinking like I don't know that's wild did you read all the books in preparation for the movies or were you did you just the Hunger Games yeah so the Hunger Games I actually read very early there's another series The Maze Runner yes I also really love my husband and I were looking for film rights to some of those like YA books.

26:56And we read The Hunger Games. And I remember I read the first one right away when it came out. I don't remember. I think because I was reading, I had read Maze Runner and thought, well, I'm so into this world and I want to find another one. And I devoured The Hunger Games and immediately looked for the rights and they were already sold. Yeah. Yeah. Nina Jacobson, who's the producer of them, had the rights in. And I thought, okay, oh, well, but I, God, I love these books. And then, so when The Hunger Games was being developed as a series, a film series, not even a series. They didn't know it would be more than one, you know, more than the first one.

27:44I was so immediately on that because I just loved the world and I loved Katniss and I and I loved Effie I knew I I saw a whole larger world for Effie um I saw her whole backstory and you know in the Hunger Games Effie is the villain she's the representative besides Snow of um really of the capital yeah and the fascism in the capital and so I thought how juicy You know, it's just so juicy. And then when then when you read Catching Fire and Mockingjay, it's so. I think Effie, for me, is one of the characters that has the greatest arc that I've ever played, because obviously she's she props up this fascist regime that she benefits from.

28:38and it's not until she realizes who, you know, really comes to care for and see how unfair it is when they want to pull Katniss and Peeta into the games again. Like, that's not the deal here and it's not supposed to be like this. And now she's like, wait a minute, hold on. I think in Catching Fire when she's like, I want to be part of this team and you really see her struggling and then by the end, And she's like a revolutionary. You know, she gets turned by the events of it. And I think that's, I wish more of us were becoming revolutionaries. Effie is the model, guys. She's the model. I don't understand the 53 % of white ladies that didn't vote for Kamala.

29:23Yeah, I mean, yeah. What were you thinking? Have your kids watched the Hunger Games? Yeah, they have. And did they like it? They do. They loved it. That's so fun. I know. Yeah, that's such a treat. I mean, not that they'll really tell me, but they like that they really like them. Yeah. Is it weird having someone else step into those shoes now with Elle fanning and the thing? Or is it really exciting? No, it's not weird at all. I mean, I think if you're going to tell their story young, it makes perfect sense. And I think she's perfect. And you know what's great is the fans, I think, really helped.

29:58They wanted her. And she really is the right. I think she's so delightful. and she has the exact energy and and what's great is again I think she'll play that wide-eyed idealism of like like being taken along by snow and the ride and like how like I'm really interested to see how that all yeah plays out because um she's a she was a true believer yeah were there any so you said you imagine the whole backstory for Effie and everything was there anything that you weren't able to do in the movies that you wanted to? Well, honestly, in the movies, we got to do so much more. Yeah, yeah. Because Effie's barely in Mockingjay.

30:40Totally. And what was so special is I was getting the call from the producers to say, you know, fans love her and we really love what you've been doing with her and we want her to have more to do in Mockingjay in the films. And so I was it's very gratifying when you can like really bring something to a character that then people relate to and want to see more of. And it was really exciting. Love that. Did you keep anything crazy from the wardrobe of that set? I do have a couple. You know, it was a lot of what Trish Somerville did in the second half of the series, especially in Catching Fires. It was all Alexander McQueen and like the butterfly dress.

31:25and so much of the costuming there. And so I have some Alexander McQueen shoes. I mean, the butterfly dress is like in the Met Museum. Wow, yeah. It's like... That's crazy. So crazy. Yeah. But that's amazing. And I bet you there must have been some fun props on the miniature wife as well with everything being so funny sized. Well, the miniature wife, my husband likes to say I was the least mentally prepared for that job than any other job because I really didn't understand it being six inches tall, how much I was going to be on a green screen and separated and isolated from Matthew and the rest of the characters in the series.

32:07And what's interesting is, look, the characters in the show are this married couple who have really, they're very isolated from each other. They're not in a partnership. They're not, they're kind of drifting apart. They're really, they're holding on by a thread when you first meet them. They're really on there headed for divorce and shrinking the isolation that that is in the series, but also physically for me, I was so isolated on a green screen. It was the most vulnerable I've ever felt as an actor because you're in a huge room, all green, alone, having to imagine, which is, by the way, the job of actors is imagining the circumstances and how you would react to them.

32:52But like imagining the whole world, my husband being there, no one's there. I'm looking at a tennis ball 150 feet away from me on a camera that is literally across a stage, imagining the entire world, the carpet I'm standing on, the walls next to me, the table, the dollhouse, whatever, because I'm on a green screen. I am not surrounded by any reality. And then there's a cat or there's a bird or there's, you know, these things I would just be interacting with. So when the prop department could give me actual things to use, it was such a huge relief and help because suddenly the things that I was having to imagine actually became much more real for me.

33:39So it was so helpful. So they, they made everything from a 30 foot tall toilet plunger. Oh my God. Wild. They made toothpaste. They made, um, uh, an entire thing of, um, floss that then I use as rope and that they brought in that, you know, was totally real that literally you know how floss like wax floss like the wax like flakes off like it flakes off all over me i mean they really made it real they made uh two they made um a chanel lipstick that was fabulous they made a giant my favorite actually the the crew's favorite was they made me a giant a fiji water bottle that we could all stand inside of so it looks like we're like inside a water bottle which is really fun to shoot to play around with um the coffee mug i'm sitting in a giant coffee mug and holding a miniature version of the same exact coffee mug and he carries me around in it and so to actually be able to sit in the mug was really fun and special you do a lot of like quite physical kind of comedy and reactions and stuff that must have been so physical i was on wires half the time and so much stunt work because everything is big and dangerous you know I'm standing on a a table and when well six inch tall person looks over the table it's you know it's a 50 foot drop equivalent you know and so yeah it was really physically demanding and wild you mentioned Matthew and as we're talking about books are you have you watched his Pride and Prejudice where he plays Mr.

35:14Darcy of course he's my Mr. Darcy he's my Mr. Darcy too and I've watched them all yeah I watched the tv show colin firth loved and and i love colin firth yeah i'm excited for the new one that they're making jack i think that's going to be incredible um matthew told me this is telling a total tale that is not my story to tell but i thought it was so sweet he and colin wrote to jack to say like welcome to the party you're the new version so sweet that's so sweet they're such gentlemen um yeah I mean you know it's just so romantic and gorgeous isn't it yeah it's so good and the so and I think now it's sort of because we've seen like Matthew played these other types of characters that are so different it almost makes the sort of Mr.

36:05Darcy of it all feel even more unusual like I don't know as in I don't know I just think it's um it's such a fun movie it's one of my like favorite re-watches oh i've never turn it if you if you're flipping around and it happens to be on on at first you're watching it non-stop and i'm and i devoured on social media too exactly the hand touch touch as he puts her into the carriage goodness i know so good all right well we have two more books to talk about okay let's do go for the underground railroad which whoof and another incredible book absolutely incredible i think it should be required reading yeah i agree I didn't know what I was getting into when I started it.

36:45And what's fascinating is the Underground Railroad, which obviously was a real thing, and Harriet Tubman. And like, you know, I found that the Underground Railroad as a literary device that pulls you through the timeline of slavery and Jim Crow and just everything that's happened to African-Americans in our culture. and then just the different stories that were being told and all of the trauma. Yeah. And it's so relatable. But then there's this sort of fantastical, magical realism that gives the whole notion of it like the resilience of the people that come through and their humanity and their dignity and all of it is just so beautifully woven together by this literary device and I just it's just magical and it's you're learning so much um it's fictionalized but also there's so obviously so much reality in what he's talking about and there's so much tragedy in it and so much hope.

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