Lena Waithe

0:00So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 % off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordi Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. Uncovered windows can make your home feel up to 20 degrees hotter. Stay cool and save up to 50 % off custom window treatments during the 4th of July mega sale at blinds.com. From outdoor shades to room darkening blinds, finding the perfect fit is easy.

0:41Get free samples, expert design help, and professional measure and install services. Or DIY with confidence and support every step of the way. Shop up to 50 % off site-wide, plus huge savings on doorbusters right now during the 4th of July mega sale at Blinds.com. I like a hosting moment, but not too many people because I like to focus. I like to have like two people, maybe three is like almost too much. Like I got to lock in with the conversation. And also when you have too many people, like what happens when it's time to go? Like how do you navigate that?

1:15Well, Lena Waithe, welcome to One Night Stand. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. We're very thrilled to have you. And you've chosen four great books to talk about today. But tell me, have you always been a big reader? Yeah, you know, when I was young, it's something that I really enjoyed. And I think as I got older, when I cared about a subject or there was a particular person that I was interested in, I wanted to read about them. And I think maybe that's me. I don't know if that's me being a kid of the 90s, where the internet wasn't as prevalent. It was it definitely happened as I was getting older, but it wasn't something that was a go to source for things.

1:54It was still new. Yeah. So books were the way to learn about anything. And I would go to the library, whether it be my local one or the one in my school. And it was a great way for me to get information and to find out about things I was interested in. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I used to we had a lot of encyclopedias at home that I would look through. And I actually looked in one of them recently when I was back. because my parents still had it and it was just it's fascinating because a lot of them were historical looking at how the history they write has changed absolutely especially because a lot of the stuff that was talking about like britain and the empire and i was like they wouldn't get away with writing that now like in that kind of way from like those like 80s early 90s books that's true you have to update the history books you got to update the history books yeah did you have you ever been much into fiction or non-fiction i think when i was younger i was really into um fiction and then as i got older i really kind of got into memoirs and you know and depending on the subject if it's not too because sometimes when you think about non-fiction you do think of history books you think about that kind of stuff but i really do love a great memoir and even though well i mean yeah this is your mother is a is a memoir about you know her experience with her mother but i think i like hearing about someone's life in the first person i agree yeah It's something there's something so moving about it.

3:13And especially I got into listening to them that way as well. Yeah. Which is fun. Yeah. Well, let's start with This Is Your Mother by Erica J. Simpson, which is an incredible book. I like flew through it. Me too. Tell me what you love about that book. I think I love the way she tells the story. It's not a it's weird. I don't want to say it's not a typical memoir. But one, it is focused on her relationship with her mother, obviously, based on the title. But I think what she does is she paints a very accurate photo of someone from her perspective, of course. But it's one that isn't afraid to speak to her mother's flaws, but yet understand that that's what makes her mother who she who her mother was.

3:59Her mother is no longer Earthside. But and I think that was very interesting. But not saying it in a way that's bad. It's even though someone could perceive it that way. But what she's saying is, this is my mother. This was my experience. And because of that, I am who I am. And so even though it's very much a story about her relationship with her mother and about her mother, what it's saying is who you come from has a lot to say about who you ultimately become and I think that was something that I really enjoyed and also their letters and sort of ways in which she kind of tells you things and I just found that to be really fascinating and really personal and I enjoyed that form of storytelling yeah it's incredible and she really like allows her mom to be a real like 360 degree character not just like her mother in that way right and And I love those like rules of Sally.

4:56I know exactly the rules, you know, and yeah, she sort of says her mom sort of has this rule, this sort of rule book, if you will, and ways to survive life or to get through things. And, you know, they were hustlers. It wasn't easy. And we live in a capitalist society. And if you don't have capital, then you have to find new ways to survive. And this happens to be a book about a black young woman and, you know, her sister, her mom and things like that. But it is a very universal story. even if you don't have a strained relationship with your mother, even if you don't happen to be a black woman walking through the world, I think what's great about books or art of any kind is that you see yourself in people that you might not ever meet.

5:36Totally. There's something just so evergreen about the, like the, the, when she's writing about the grief, the, you know, she's kind of grieving for a lot of the book, even, you know, even until right until the end. And that is so evergreen that everyone will relate to. Exactly. It's funny you say that about the, how sort of generous she is to her mom in that way because I think in other hands I could imagine this story being like and then she put me through this or then she put me through that not in like a horrible way but just in a sort of like it wasn't an easy childhood at all not at all no but she has such sort of compassion exactly and and you don't know if that comes from the fact that her mother is now deceased and she can look back at yeah her life with her mom and the times that she wasn't with her mom and who she became when she was away from her mother.

6:26I think that sometimes can help you define who you are when you step away from the vessel. And I think I just really relate it to some of the ways in which she tried to make sense of her mother. And that really is sort of a child's job in a way. Because once you make sense of the parent, then you can kind of make some sort of sense of why you are who you are. Totally. And I think the book is very much a meditation on that. And yeah, I just, I was so moved and blown away. I was telling you earlier that Jeremy O 'Harris shared the book with me because I think they're doing something with it. I don't want to speak out of school, but maybe I'll speak it into existence.

7:09They're trying to do, I don't know if it's a series or turn it into something scripted. He really was on me about it, about taking a look at it. And I read it and I posted about it and I messaged Erica because I think it's a very, it's just oftentimes books are called brave or noble or courageous. But the word I would really describe to describe the book is human. Yeah, I agree. It's also really a book. I'm one of three girls and it's about sisterhood as well. And like the relationship between Erica and her sister and the different ways that they respond to their childhood. And we had, Issa Rae was on recently.

7:47I saw her, I love Issa. She's the best. And she recommended one of Angela Fornoy's books, The Wilderness, which is just out now. And that has so many things about sisters. And that book has a character who her and her sister have both like responded very differently to their childhood. And they're sort of like struggling to come together again. And I thought this book captured the way that I mean, they are like forever in each other's corner. But, you know, you can take take different routes. Right. And I'm one of two girls. So yeah, so I, I, yeah, obviously I related to that. And it's so true.

8:19You know, you can have two kids who grew up in the same house who become very different people, have very different experiences. And I think that's just sort of the way it is because everybody's different. Exactly. And receives things differently. I know. And it's funny because when you think about our like tendency to sort of prescribe now who someone's going to be to the coordinates of where they started off, it's like I look at me and my sisters or say you and your sister. And it's like, well, we all have the same starting point, but I've ended up very different places. I mean, someone could argue, do you have the same starting point?

8:46Because your parents are different people when they have each child. Yes, that's so true. And people are always shifting and changing and evolving. So people often say I'm the youngest of two. but let's say the eldest child has a different set of parents than the the youngest child for whatever reasons because sometimes by the time they get to the youngest kid maybe the parents have amassed more wealth or they more understanding or they aren't as uh micromanaging and so therefore the youngest is going to be different from the eldest just because of how the parents had evolved by that point yeah is your sister in hollywood as well or no no no no no i couldn't be further from it really yeah exactly yeah my family's the same none of them do anything remotely um similar but the birth order thing is so true yeah it's interesting um that's fascinated and you know i thought it was a really beautiful invocation of sally's faith as well like her faith is such a like resource for her absolutely and i mean i thought did you relate to that at all and when you're reading well it's interesting because my family i always say i come from a family of lazy Christians and that they can't quote the Bible to save their lives.

9:54And they couldn't throw a Bible at me when I came out because there wasn't one around. But we went to church, you know, and they were faithful members of a particular church, Christ Universal Temple. Our pastor happened to be a black woman, which was very rare at that time and very much a trailblazer in her own right, Johnny Coleman, Reverend Johnny Coleman. But it wasn't something that was a source, I think, for my mom. like God, Bible, religion. I think that was very specific to Erica's mother. And I know there are people that have that experience. It wasn't mine. And I'm kind of grateful for that.

10:30I think because sometimes when the Bible and God is the end all be all, oftentimes it's not a lot of shades of gray or sort of nuance. And I think for me, especially in my profession, I have to always see it from a 360 point of you no matter what the situation is yeah and i think sometimes if you're just very black and white this is the word this is what it is you can become very stringent and there's a little bit too much certainty there and i love the quote in conclave where they say there's no progress when there is certainty yeah that's so true he was like even jesus wasn't sure he said why has thou forsaken me yes yes my parents met at church um and so we went a lot like growing up but it i think it was more like cultural than maybe like faith-based really i don't know but it's it's it's still interesting like because it formed such a big part of my childhood even that even so i suppose but it's interesting how you sort of grow up and then have your own relationship with all these things yeah that's true and you know i thought this book has such a like a beautiful kind of the present tense element feels so like you really feel like you're in it with her right that's what i think i like the most about again sort of a different form of storytelling the sort of very urgency the right now uh even though we're aware that this is uh she's an adult now she's talking about her childhood but you do feel like you're in the car that you're having the experience that you're you know getting running away from the store before they can look at the the credit card or the check like it just feels very urgent and i think that's how literature should feel you know even if you're telling a story from your past it should feel as if we're right now in the thick of it with you and and that's what i think i like so much about it totally it felt so like immediate yeah and i felt very present and you sort of felt like had these reactions even the scene where she goes off to university and she's got this scholarship and she's trying to be an actress and and then there's that really horrible security guard that makes that really flippant comment to her about like oh you know about there not being many people like her around here kind of thing i just wanted to like i know and also that you probably won't stick around you probably won't make it you probably won't survive and but you know that's the world and we don't know where I mean what his position is or why he feels that way or but he's also telling the truth in a way yeah and now in terms of what he thinks will happen to her there is his projection yeah it's never personal it's always a projection of how that person feels about themselves yeah well that's a true like director's perspective or something there where you're like this person's thinking this and they're motivated by that this person yeah whereas i was like in it with her and i was like i can't believe it damn it that's not cool man yeah but you know but that's what the world is yeah you're right well your second book think you'll be happy by nicole avon is a another incredible book about a mother like yes very different very different yeah tell me about your love of that book you know there's lists that go around you know you i'm very grateful to to to be able to receive books from people and to say hey i hope you get a chance to read it and And Nicole Avon is someone I've gotten a chance to meet and be around a little bit.

13:34And I know who her parents are. I think I kind of know her story, but you don't really know someone's story until they write it down and share things with you. And so reading the book about her mother, who she lost tragically, it wasn't what I was expecting. It's probably one of the most optimistic, just joyful and light and love. There's so much of that. in the book. And I reached out to Nicole as well after reading it and just really told her how grateful I was to her for writing the book and being able to, I still don't really know how she was able to do that and tell us her story and in the same time really honor her mother and the things that her mother taught her and left her with.

14:25And her mother has left behind such a Beautiful Legacy, which is really the way in which she reared her children and showed up in the world, not just for her family, but for her community. Totally. And I think that's something that I just really, I value that. And I was grateful to be learning about this woman who I'd seen images of and I was aware of who she was. But I'm grateful to Nicole for telling us who she was as a human being. Totally. and being willing to go there because that is such I mean losing a parent is never easy but losing it in that those circumstances is particularly I mean the the shock and the sort of process I just can't even imagine yeah same and and I lost my dad suddenly when I was a teenager but I didn't know uh the circumstances around what happened until I really last year but And the crazy thing is I learned later that he was killed tragically.

15:26And I didn't find that out until after reading Nicole's book. But there's something really interesting about that experience losing a parent also at the hands of someone else. And so then you're thinking about that and sort of trying to process a lot of things. And also my process was a little delayed because I found that out later. But just her grace and is something that I don't know. She just inherited it or was it was taught, obviously was taught to her to have grace for people and to to treat everyone with kindness and respect. And I think that is something that it's really nice to see in print and to see how her mother really, that's what she gave to her children really was a way of going about life.

16:24And it is interesting follow up to this is your mother because your parents are the ones that give you the rule book. And you can either follow it, you can take what works for you and leave the rest, or you can deviate completely. and I think what Nicole is speaking about is really wanting to live up to uh the the the bar that her mother set it was pretty high yeah I'm so sorry about your loss of your father finding that out I mean I mean thank you it's but I also think that that well also I was a teenager so I could understand why they might have uh withheld that information but I think that as you get older and you hear about other people's stories.

17:05And again, it's just a reminder. Books remind us how much we all have in common. Oh, totally. Even things that you might not want to have in common with anyone. But when you realize that you're not alone and it just makes us all feel more connected. For sure. I also thought Nicole was so bravely honest about some of her own, like what she terms as like mistakes or things, like the conversation with Ted when she's in the car yeah when she talks about him telling her that his mother has passed and she's like oh I hope the funeral is not next week and she's talking about how um you know she regrets that and how I wrote this one quote down she was like love is being the very worst version of yourself and knowing that the person who loves you will continue to love you oh yeah really really stunning and I couldn't agree more you know uh and I I also value that her sharing these moments of, again, humanity.

18:05Exactly. She's a person. And I think because of how accomplished she is and because of the family that she comes from, I think there's an expectation that she doesn't get anything wrong or she doesn't say the wrong thing at the wrong time. And what it does is she humanizes herself. And for Nicole Avon is someone to aspire to, to look up to, not unlike her parents. And what she's saying is that we too get it wrong and we too fumble and and obviously I can relate to that as well everybody can everyone but I think I can really see myself in that when you are put on a pedestal people believe that you are better at being a person than everybody else that's hard like as in they as in because you mean if you like are seen as being like highly skilled artist or something they want to like sort of hold you to account in other ways too yeah i think people want to think that people they look up to or aspire to be are better at everything not just whatever it is that they're good at but they want to believe that you're a really great person because that helps them sleep at night but i think that people that are really good at something there's no rule that says because they're really good at one thing means that they're really good at being a person yeah that's an extraordinary pressure to carry as well absolutely and it is one that you can either carry or put down yeah and i think it's important that anyone who is a public figure not carry other people's expectations because it's too big of a burden to bear did it take you a while to realize that when you went into the public eye You know, it's interesting because I never thought I would be a public person.

19:51That wasn't something I set out to be. When that happened, I think also because I'm a person who is people might deem to be marginalized because I'm a black person. I'm a woman and I'm queer. And so in many ways, I'm seen as a person that should not be successful because I'm sort of when it comes to the caste system. I there's a place I'm supposed to be and stay and where I'm supposed to live and so when you defy that that that is something to be that people deem it to be admirable you know and to go against society's rules and still be successful or what society deems someone to be successful yeah and so because of that there's this this this wondering of oh you you must have it all figured out you must be great at writing great at love great at like I say being a person and the truth is is that I'm still just a person that happens to do something that the public engages in and I think that is also I think it's societal I think we are indoctrinated to believe that someone who you know has amassed wealth or fame or is someone that we look to there's this idea that they should be morally sound yeah and I don't think that morality and society's idea of success go hand in hand no that's so interesting yeah and it's sort of the I feel like in order to make good art you have to be like a real human right with human flaws and human like ideas and human like feelings and it's like if you sanded all that away to become some sort of like perfect moral or tomato and you you're not then able to make the art that you know but it's also an odd thing that we have this expectation of people who are sort of these gifted artists to be normal people yeah and some people can be like you look at someone like tom hanks he's a very he's he's an everyman yeah you know who also happens to be a movie star and a like two-time Oscar winner.

22:07Got it. But then there's someone else like, you know, Nicolas Cage, who is not an everyman. He's a very unique guy and has a very specific cadence and a way of being. And I don't think his life looks anything like Tom Hanks. But they are both two movie stars that are both necessary. And the way they walk through the world is their choice. But I think there's this desire for people that do extraordinary things to go home to a spouse and kids and have dinner and tuck their kids into bed and say their prayers before they go to sleep and have breakfast in the morning like everybody else for some because people want to feel like those folks are just like us they're they they live exactly the way that we do and it's just not necessarily like you know it's yeah i don't know but even if you think about um the osbornes what was interesting about that was that it was this wild rock star living in the such domesticity that people were kind of like what i was just like yelling for his kids and like in the bed with his wife and just eating dinner and like shuffling around his home like it kind of was this obviously it was a it was a big moment in culture but i think the reason why was because it was what people secretly want.

23:28everyone knows that unexplainable it factor that smile that lights up a room that wow well it doesn't happen by itself there's chemistry behind the charisma colgate optic white pro series toothpaste removes 15 years of deep set stains when you brush twice daily for two weeks how the clinically proven formula is powered by colgate's hydrogen peroxide complex it works at the molecular level to gently dissolve stains deep within the enamel where your brush can't reach it's proof that daily routine can be remarkable that's the science of wow colgate Optic White.

24:27slow when network is busy see terms totally and also i think that for someone like aussie he comes from birmingham which is where i grew up in the uk and so there's a huge tribute to him since he passed in the city but i think also like when i was looking at the local press when i was home because i was home when it happened and it was all about the working class hero the working class hero who had like made it and on one hand they're like thrilled that someone's made it out or whatever or like has and then the on the other side it's like that there's then the accountability of like, have you made it out in the right way?

24:57And have you forgotten where you've come from? And all of that stuff. And I just think that is such a like complicated path to travel and navigate. Like you have to sort of remember where you've come from and show that in a certain way to people in the way they understand it. But then also they like that you're different. I don't know, it's hard. It's you have to sort of spend your life apologizing for your success. Yes. Or normalizing yourself so much that people don't feel too separate or too far away from you. it's a very interesting thing. It's a very interesting dynamic. Yeah, it really is.

25:30One other part that I thought was really interesting that you sort of, I feel like you don't hear as much these days people saying, is that when Nicole was talking about the person who murdered her mother, she said, you know, we all have choices to blame what happened on our childhood or our mental illness is to deny those choices, which I thought was quite interesting because I feel like, you know, we, in other scenarios, her parents talk a lot about to her when someone does something hurtful they'll be like where are their parents kind of thing and there's this tension between individual responsibility and the sort of structures of society whether that's like in your immediate family or the global world that how they can shape your life and I did I just thought I thought that part was interesting no it's interesting it's like what is the the personal responsibility for one's choices and And, you know, I could rack my brain about thinking about the person that took my father's life, but it doesn't bring him back.

26:28And everyone has their own way about digesting that information or processing it. For me, I think it's not about the why. Yeah. Because I don't know if that does anything for me. And also trying our best to have empathy. Yes. to have grace and that for me is what I got out of that out of her book and out of her you know her meditation on her mother and and what what she wanted to how she wanted to proceed in her life I also thought she was so like brilliantly honest and about growing up in a house where there were lots of artists coming and going and the sort of benefits of that and the joys of that because I was always so envious of people who'd grown up because I didn't grow up in an environment like that like my dad was a teacher and my mom was a carer like so I when I arrived in like London and then New York and not meeting creative people I just never been around them and so but I thought she handled it with such grace of like not like apologizing she's like just like the home she grew up in but owning it and just I don't know I thought it was lovely yeah and I think you know I love those kind of stories and she did a beautiful documentary about her father as well as the black godfather and it's fantastic it's on netflix clarence avon and you know she had these two phenomenal parents that i think gave her different things and she embodied her and her brother like they embody these these ideals that their parents passed down And I think that to me is just really beautiful.

28:16And she knows that just because she had these great parents doesn't mean that she's always going to get things right. Yeah, totally. And I think that to me was really well said. Do you live in the type of house that always has people coming and going, creatives and stuff? Or are you more like, this is my sanctuary? I mean, it's a little bit of both. I think I definitely, it's very much a sanctuary. We're very thoughtful about who comes to the house. But a lot of my friends are creatives. They also sometimes make art in different ways. And I think, but also not every single person, it works in the industry or it works in the business.

28:50But if I'm inspired by the person, this doesn't necessarily mean they have to make art. They could just inspire me by who they are. And I think that is what is a really beautiful balance in my life. And, but I'm around a lot of people, a lot of my peers and people like Issa, who I love. And I think that there's a, there's a relatability. There's an understanding when you're around other folks that do what you do. But I also find a lot of joy and comfort of being around people that aren't in the business, too. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I feel exactly the same, but I am quite protective of my home. Like, yes, I don't love having I mean, I like having like friends over and stuff, but I would struggle with having the type of home that's like a public, like entertaining space.

29:30Like some people do, you know, they have rooms where they're always hosting or something. I'm like, I know. Yes, it's true, because it's like I like a hosting moment, but not too many people. right because i like to focus i like to have like two people maybe three is like almost too much like i gotta lock in with the conversation yes and also when you have too many people like what happens when it's time to go like how do you navigate that exactly and music people which is who nicole apon was around a lot a lot of musicians they don't sleep they're like nocturnal owls they just are always going so that i don't quite understand no also i live in new york in like two rooms so it'd be like welcome my bed is three feet away but still in new york i mean you can still have a great time this is true this is true yeah well i mean your third book let's move on to well actually one of the themes that we haven't spoken about which i thought was interested in this book which comes up in sky full of elephants by sebo campbell as well which was amazing is this idea of the divine feminine which i thought was so interesting because i think when i was younger because i like i definitely grew up being like i'm a feminist and so there were certain elements of like femininity that I sort of wanted to push away because I thought that being a feminist meant that I couldn't be feminine almost like but I don't know I just thought that was kind of interesting well no yeah the divine feminine for sure is really interesting and I was also trying to figure out I was like there's some themes going on here particularly with I think this is your mother and I think you'll be happy it is about the the divine feminine but particular in terms of mothering yeah and how one mothers and how one mothers a daughter in particular.

31:04And so I definitely thought about that on the way here. I was like, oh, those two books are, you know, it is about the mother-daughter journey, which I am also fascinated by as well. And then in Sebo's novel, that is the sort of the divine mother where you don't have to necessarily have to have given birth to someone to be maternal, to guide. And in particular, there's a mother that has passed away. The protagonist has lost her mother as well that's an interesting thing you know this is your mother obviously you know think you'll be happy in a sky full of elephants it is about grieving a mother yeah but appreciating what she gave you while she was still here and yeah two being memoir and one being you know fiction is very interesting and they both kind of give you a similar feeling about what happens when the vessel that brought you to the world is no longer here yeah and i feel like in um sky full of elephants the sydney is really wrestling with like the shortcomings of her mother as well and the things that she didn't tell her and the world that she the the sort of like strange insulated world that she brought her up in and everything it's a real wreck and it's uh it's dealing with race i mean it's a white mother raising a a child whose father is black and and the things that she isn't able to expose her to or doesn't want to because of the circumstances surrounding her concept how she was conceived and and and it's a very complicated relationship that we don't really get to witness in the book because at that point her mother has since passed although we get a sense of who her mother was for a brief moment but i think uh cibo does a really beautiful job of sort of honoring the mother but also making sure we have some sort of understanding and empathy and grace for her as well totally it's such a beautiful book and you know i thought there were so many moments where you know he's allowing you to see it from so many different perspectives absolutely talk about 360 i mean cbo is really great at that and that you cannot judge root for be against anyone in the book and i think that is a beautiful thing when a writer really can do that yeah i mean there's so many bits that i wrote down yeah i know it was i love that that when zoo says that's all family as a space to be odd i thought that was really beautiful because that is the truth isn't it doesn't know when you can be quite like odd light with them with your family i know yeah and a family is uh has many definitions yes you know it doesn't always to me it doesn't mean blood i think people get very stuck on that and i think for me family are really the people that show up and the people that allow you to be odd and allow you to be yourself and uh don't judge you for it yeah there's also a lot of reckoning in this book with anger and like i think at one point one of the characters says like anger is a vital part of the human experience um and then fully understanding you know without fully understanding it you'll never understand yourself have you ever dealt with how to deal with anger in a you know it's interesting i mean i think with anger and frustration i think for me i try to go to the source of it you know what the why yes yeah versus leaning into it or feeding into it because anger really is a is a sort of hurt transformed yeah uh and or frustration i think and so i think i'm always trying to figure out if i am angry why am i yeah and and i think that's what the book also does really beautiful job of trying to understanding where the source of anger comes from yeah and then sort of facing that and staring that in the face yeah rather than sort of becoming succumbing to it totally and also just the it captures so beautifully the way that everyone's trying to manage their own needs while also the needs of the community and i think like the when sydney and her father arrive in mobile and they are going through that what they almost call it like rehabilitation process don't they when they like she goes off to have his like but and i just thought it was so beautiful like holding space for people who maybe aren't where you are now right now but are gonna hope you hope we'll get there i don't know yeah i thought i thought i mean so the book can be very whimsical in moments but also very grounded in a sort of form of reality as well And I think it's also imagining a future that isn't real, but feels very sort of true to something, to our experiences.

35:31But he is imagining a very unique world, which is very much a reckoning, I think. Totally. And where it goes, like, they've gone and you've got no excuses for who you can be, so who are you going to be? Exactly. Right. And that anybody can look at and be confronted. Yeah. And I think and also it's just the way I think about things. He just articulated it in a beautiful, poetic way in the book is that what who are you when all the excuses are gone? Yes. And I think people spend their lives holding on to excuses. Yeah. And looking for reasons to not do something. Yeah. Those are those are comfort blankets.

36:10Yeah. And then there's all those malicious people who are trying to take advantage of those who are feeling like unsure after the trend, you know, when the event happens. And some people are almost trying to go back to how things were. And then those people that are trying to encourage the walkers. I was like, oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, seeing that world of like it was like a Starbucks or different things. And like, how do you get back to what things used to be? But it's so fascinating because you the past is gone. yes it doesn't like but there are people that want to go back to the past and it's a very it's an interesting way to live it's going against nature totally because i mean some of the characters i can't remember which one says to sydney when she's like i just want to go back and they were like can you not understand we weren't free like that was not but you think of that as when you were free but for the rest of us that was like complete opposite exactly and it's like go back to where yeah go back to bondage yeah exactly like it's really it was really beautiful how do you think so the ending is sort of ambiguous right it ends with um Sidney's father like turning the machine sort of like back on yeah and she's like gone into Texas and is going through the what do you think she comes back to him you know I think what endings like that it it lends itself to whatever the reader decides yeah and I think for me it was a beautiful way to end the book and i think it sort of just left my imagination swirling and wondering what what is the world now yeah you know and we've moved into a new space what i love about i think the best endings are the ones that feel like a new beginning yes yes and that is exactly how the end of his book feels yeah and that new beginning can look many different ways and i think the reader is really up to the reader's you know discretion yeah because she's sort of like in the water i suppose it is like a kind of rebirth almost like a baptism of like a new life it's really special yeah i read that lawrence fishburne is adapting this but do you ever read books fiction with the goal of adapting no never with the goal in mind no when i'm reading a book i think i just want to be lost in it yeah and if you know and more often than not if i'm reading something like this is your mother i knew jeremy was already doing that i think sebo might have mentioned that he was already work with somebody so yeah i just kind of get to read it and enjoy it and maybe i am imagining what it might look like or what it might feel like or what it could be what it could be and that's a tricky thing and i love when books do become movies or tv shows whatever makes sense but for me i i do like my imagination doing with it whatever it will and then when it does hit the screen big or small then you're you're seeing someone else's imagination come to life so it's can be bittersweet do you ever fictionally cast things then in your head when you're like imagining them or not really no i don't really see actors when i think i just sort of it's it's interesting i i go off of what the description is and then in my brain just sort of does something with that that's so because isa said the same thing she said she sees an essence because i definitely like see character i imagine like actresses or whatever i know it's so weird no i feel like it's a lack of imagination on my part no not at all i think you actually your brain is doing something really cool I think mine is sort of seeing blobs a little bit I'm not able to think of an actor it's too much like work yeah well I mean that maybe that's because it's not like work for me it's sort of like a big novelty of like fictionally when I had Gillian Anderson I was like it's so amazing you actually get to cast them she was like it's not that easy I was like I believe that is true it's very true well your fourth book is Yes I Can the story of Sammy Davis Jr.

39:47which is an incredible story um tell me about your love of this book oh well I think it really began with My love of Sammy Davis Jr. I was really honored to be able to write a biopic. And that was actually based on the book that his daughter wrote, Tracy. And look, I think this book is really cool, though. I wanted to highlight because Sammy's, he was speaking to someone and working with someone on this one. So again, just memoir. I think I really wanted to speak to that more so versus Tracy. That's an interesting thing. His daughter writing about him, which was very helpful because she when she was still earth side she you know like giving us the rights to her book and things like that but this book really moved because you have to read this book as well you can't you know you have to read all the books but sammy was a child prodigy and came up in a time where black people were seen and you know still in our society continued to be seen as less than and because he was so extraordinary he really shifted culture and society because people couldn't just look at him it's sort of like how is he just some sort of fluke is he some freak of nature he also was half Puerto Rican half black and he was brown skinned was very short got his nose broken in the army lost his eye in a car accident and still came back and it was I think the world threw a lot at him and he only sort of gave love back yes to any and everyone and he dealt with so much and carried so much for the black community for the industry for himself even when it came to who he fell in love with.

41:38It was not a popular thing for a black man to be dating a white woman. Still, you know, that is something that is very fraught and people are still having those conversations. And Sammy was someone, you know, who's on the cover of magazines with, you know, his white wife. And, you know, he wasn't afraid to say that love is not political. Yes. Love is, you know, guttural. It is spiritual. and that was a big deal for him to do that at that time and I think for me I I find it to be very admirable that he wasn't afraid of what someone would think it still affected him he's still a human being and there were definitely people with the black in the black community at the time who thought he wasn't proud of his blackness and he didn't embrace who he was and for him it was very frustrating because that was not true it was not a fact and I think he was someone who really lived by a code, which was to do your best to be a good person and to show up.

42:42And I think for him, for people to think that he was anything less than a good person really bothered him. And I want to, I mean, there's still never been a movie made about his life. Luckily, Coleman Domingo is going to be doing something, which I'm really excited to see. I'm in the process of adapting my biopic into a stage play with music. And so I'm working on I'm trying to make it a little bit more sort of whimsical right now. And so it feels really different. But it's important for me to tell his story because it is one that we think we know, but his impact is one that continues to have a ripple effect.

43:20You don't have Usher. You don't have Michael Jackson. You don't have, I mean, Eddie Murphy, like half of these people that we love and we know they would not exist in the way they do. if Sammy Davis Jr. did not exist in the way in which he did. Yeah. This book is sort of, I think, out of print, but they're reissuing it in December. Yes. Which is really exciting. And Questlove has written the intro. Of course he has. I love Quest. And in it, he talks about how Sammy Davis Jr. is the first time that he sort of heard the term like code switching in terms of him having to sort of alternate between these different communities, like in the Rat Pack where he was the only Black member and within his own community.

44:03And I just, I think it's, it's such an interest. I mean, I just think it's brilliant that it's going to be like republished and out there for people to discover. I think it's really important. And I hope people do pick up the book and spend some time with this story and with this man. Because I think the most beautiful thing about him is that he just, he really just gave love, you know, and loved what he did and was so great at it. And he deserves to be honored. And he was honored before he passed. I'm really grateful that there was this beautiful special that you can go see on YouTube. It was sort of honoring 60 years in the business, but people knew that his time was sort of fast approaching and he was ill and he was very frail.

44:47And I mean, the likes of Whitney Houston, Diane Carroll, Muhammad Ali, Eddie Murphy hosts, Frank Sinatra perform. I mean, the list goes on and on. Ella Fitzgerald, Quincy Jones is there. It's Debbie Allen performs. I mean, all of these amazing human beings come out and show gratitude for this person who gave of himself and sacrificed so much to entertain the world and to break barriers and to be a first. And that comes at a cost. And so I'm grateful that he paid that price because we needed him and we still need his energy now. And I want to do my best to keep his legacy alive. Yeah. I also think it's a really lovely story.