Lukas Gage

0:02Turn it up! Storm has zero sugar and 200mg of caffeine, so you can turn that workout up a notch. Good energy in, good energy out. Energy for life. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doomscrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. bundling just another way to save with the personal price plan prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state you've met brownie stonelis what is it like to hang out with him incredible it's everything i would have ever wanted he's eccentric he's super smart very perceptive and i'll never forget what he said to me we had a meeting to talk about writing and and i left and then i hear the door open back up and he goes lucas and i turn around and he goes try to be happy i was like what he's like just try to be happy lucas gage welcome to one night stand sam leach thank you for having me what a treat what a treat indeed a treat to get you on the record i love it i'm so excited yeah no i'm not going to ask you about any books.

1:21I'm just going to sit here and, you know, just stare at me. Yeah, just make you tell me that you love me. I love you. In perpetuity that I have this always on camera. Sam Leach. You can always say this whenever you're questioning it. Perfect. Okay. Gonna need. Love Sam Leach. But we are here today to talk about books and your memoir in particular. Amazing. But first, were you always a big reader growing up? I was a huge reader growing up. The only way I could get my dad's attention, I think, was for reading. I think that was what I was rewarded on. I read a lot of books, and he was an overachiever, you know, went to Cornell at 14, so if I read books, I was always rewarded with going to the movies, and then a real obsession unfolded.

2:04What were some of those early books you read for his attention? The series of unfortunate events, you know, Harry Potter was big for me. I loved A Wrinkle in Time. I remember I loved all Shel Silverstein books. Not anything crazy, but you know what? They hold up. Some of them really hold up. A Wrinkle in Time holds up. I mean, like what else are you supposed, you're not supposed to read War and Peace at five years old. Like that's. I want to say that I did. I mean, you know, lying is a theme of this book. Lying is a big theme of this book. Oh, you know who has a huge person? Ned Vizzini. I don't know who that is.

2:38Be More Chill. It's kind of a funny story. Oh, I've heard of, I don't, yeah. Wait, that's a... It's a book. They made me more chill into a play. That's what it was. Was that on Broadway recently or something? Yeah, a couple years ago, yeah. It was all about you could take a pill and it teaches you how to be cool. Oh, interesting. You would have definitely liked that as a kid. I loved it. Loved it. So as much as you were a big reader, you were also a diarist as a child. Yes. It's interesting. I was thinking a lot about you don't have a formal writing background, despite being a very prolific writer of scripts and now your first book.

3:16But you were writing fiction from a young age because you would lay in the bath and write tall tales. Yeah, so tell me tell us about those early attempts at fiction. I think I truly was very very bored and the creativity wasn't it wasn't being put to good use so I would just lie to my book, I already called it a book lie to my diary to just make my life seem more entertaining for who? I think just myself but yeah I think that love for telling stories and having a narrative that was my own perspective on what reality was was very important to me I love it I mean now looking back reading those entries they're very funny but also a little sad that little Lucas had to lie about having horses in a big mansion and was on American Idol.

4:11Had SARS. Had SARS. Touched a bird and got SARS and had to stay home from school. But you know the real story wasn't as interesting I don't think. I mean for those who will soon read this book I think actually the real story was much more interesting. Yeah okay. Who are some of your favorite poets? My favorite poets I like Cat Cohen. We love Cat Cohen. Olivia Gatwood. I love I love Bo Burnham. I think his poetry book is amazing. I didn't know he had one. He has a really good poetry book. I think it's called Egghead. I mean, Lana Del Rey's poetry book is so good. I've read it. It's great. I've read it, and I have it on Audible with the music with Jack Antonoff.

4:54And, God, it's good. It's really good. Violet Bent Over the Grass, baby. I don't think there's a celebrity memoir that you haven't read at this point now. So yeah, tell me about like just completely diving in and which we're going to get to talking about Down the Drain by Julia Fox. But aside from that one, which were some others that had a big impact on you as you started to write? I was big on fiction until I was probably in my 20s. And then the love for nonfiction became a thing and the love for memoirs. I find them so affirming to read from these people that I look up to and admire and see where I relate and connect to them.

5:30And I think you asked what my favorite ones were? Favorite or ones that like you felt really influenced the writing of this book? I would say the two that come to mind are Demi Moore's book. Yeah, I love them. I love how raw and open she is. And Julia Fox. Julia Fox is down the drain. It's so good. They really are both no holds barred. You talk about with your book, is that like, I mean, Demi Moore spans more of her career just because by virtue of the fact that she's had a career well she's also has years on you but it's there what's most fascinating are the child is the childhood like these are really i mean julia fox when i think about her book down the drain which i adored as well it's the chapters about like her it's not kanye i think about it's about it's ace like her awful like drug dealer high school boyfriend it's like it's really the childhoods are so compelling i think that's where i connect to these books the most i think the areas where people have it all figured out and they're talking about their achievements and that's all interesting and cool but that i find far less interesting where they struggled and where uh they talk about their shortcomings and their failures to me that that's the most relatable and the most interesting and there's there's definitely some memoirs that start off with how great their life is and how much they've achieved and and that just feels so hard to relate to and and also just I don't think it's interesting to have someone talk about how they have it all together I like someone finding out and still finding out and I think both of those books Demi and Julia are still open about they're still trying to figure it out it's not a perfect cohesive story on either of them it can be jarring at times but I think that's life and people's lives that are messy and chaotic is is more interesting I think also what I admire about Julia's book and Demi's as well is that like the healing isn't linear yeah they you know Demi gets sober very young and then relapses and learns from it and I think you know she's in a really good place right now as is Julia when the book ends but I don't think either of them feel that the healing is done or that they couldn't slip back into anything right like a redemption arc you know it feels more like it's linear in a way that I like I do like a book to be have a beginning middle and end and what chronologically I'm kind of by the books I don't like too much of timelines being out of order sure but it still doesn't feel like a perfect arc and a perfect story.

8:16It's like you said, like they mess up, they get it together, they mess up. And that's, that's interesting to me. And that's life. And we're always changing. And, and they're constantly changing. I'm a different person, truly every day, as you know, being my friend, you know, and they're honest about that. And, and that's just refreshing to read from a memoir. I was going back and reading old interviews of Julia's ahead of this and there was a great interview she'd done with a writer Jessica Testa at the Times and who had interviewed her during Kanye of it all and I guess Julia said something to her that she then quoted back in this interview where she's like Kanye is actually not the most interesting thing that's ever happened to me yeah and I think a lot of people will come to your book with wanting to read about the viral video, your short-lived marriage.

9:08However, in my opinion, that is not the most interesting part. And I guess I'm kind of curious about, you know, you've been getting some early reviews of people being like, no, it's the early stuff. I think to me that's the best compliment. You know, I think when selling the book, you want to lean into those splashy headlines. And there is resistance in writing both of those stories because I'm like, I feel like I've said every, I've probably said too much about both of those things. And I'm exhausted talking about it. And so to have other people connect to the stories that are more personable and more, and not, you know, public information and find that way more fascinating than the Hollywood bullshit of it all, that's the best compliment I could possibly get from it.

9:54and I think with the Julia with Julia and Demi's book you know people have a preconceived notion that it's just going to be about Kanye or it's just going to be about the Ashton stuff and to me and both of those books and I mean this with all love and respect those were the two the least interesting parts of both those books you know I liked hearing the nuances and and and the introspection on what they were feeling at the time but to me I like hearing about the earlier parts of their career something I really liked that I think Julia talks about having wrestled with a lot and I felt this way writing my own book and being the you know the narrative by the way thank you I have to say the list is amazing thank you it's like when you're writing about other people in your life and you want to present yourself as a truly you know valuable person like how much how much of the burden of like mistakes to like put on yourself versus like how you know like wanting to balance showing that I'm someone who fucks up versus you know other people who are making mistakes in this book and I think she talks about that a lot especially she has friends who die and she's still here and she's battled addiction you know both like survivor's guilt but also showing that she you know making herself culpable in the same way and I guess I was kind of curious how that influenced how you reckoned with that in your book well Julia says something in an interview that I don't know if it influenced my book but she always says something like don't let the assholes win but I've also been the asshole like that quote is I just she said it in passing and I'm just like that is so true you know like we've all been the asshole we've all been the villainous person of at times and we've and i and i think that just both of those books as well you know julia's never trying to be the hero of her story and she's never she never also plays the victim i don't think no i don't think so she is very responsible for her her downfalls and her part of the situation and uh that any negative situation that she's in but also um I find that really attractive too like ownership of everything the bad stuff especially ownership of your your worst qualities to me is the most attractive trait in somebody do you feel you were always you always had that or that's something you've really built towards no I was completely resistant towards any constructive feedback ever I would always you know fight back and say you know it wasn't my fault that would that was you know a byproduct of whatever they did to me but that's just not true you know I've been I've been wrong and I've been a bad friend and a bad partner and a bad family member but I've also been an amazing one and I've also been an amazing lover and an amazing friend but I can acknowledge that yeah you know I'm a bit of a contradiction and I think both of those things I have to acknowledge both aspects of myself and be forthcoming about it and say, you know, this was my fault.

13:09And ultimately, the best feedback I get from people, my friends and family that read it is a sense that they understand me more. Yeah, I mean, Julia writes about in the book her diagnosis with borderline personality. And I think that was my favorite thing to read is just how beautifully you captured this experience of living with the disorder. And also just you're aware, like, yeah, how you just like living with it, but not letting it win. But also the times that it does, you just really, I just felt like it completely was the key that unlocked my understanding of you. Thank you. I feel like it was the key for myself.

13:51You know, just mapping out my whole life and seeing why, you know, I think there was a lot of shame and judgment of why I'd acted the way that I'd acted before, why I had blown up a relationship. And I think when I just put it like a timeline and I could piece things together, I'm like, oh, no wonder I was impulsive. No wonder I was crying out for attention. No wonder I was, you know, reactive and being a selfish person. It made me have more empathy and understanding for myself. You can see yourself in it and you see like, oh, I'm not the only person who feels that way. Yeah. And I think that's the coolest thing and the hope when you write a book is like you're not alone in feeling like these things that you never want to say out loud, but you have another person put it to words.

14:37I think it's beautiful. And I think I really relate also, not to go on a tangent, the thing that I loved about Julia's book. Yeah. And the thing I didn't expect from it is where all these female friendships and these female kind of like mother figures showed up throughout her whole entire life. I would never expect that from a Julia Fox book. Yeah. I read the library book by Susan Arlene, which you also brought today. You really are. Like, there are parallels with the character who burns down the library and you. He's a very blonde, gay arsonist, which you know, who loves tall tales and is prone to exaggeration.

15:15Tell me what made you want to talk about this one. This book is really interesting because I think at first glance, it's not a book I would normally want to read. And I'm just being completely blown about that. Okay. Fair enough. I think what's really cool about anything Susan Arlene does is that it's sort of like Russian nesting dolls like on the surface. It's a story about a library, but it's also about a fire. And it's also about this man who may or may not have burned it down. It's also a story of her and her mother. Like it just it truly like Susan Arlene contains multitudes. Yeah. Talking about Harry Peake, this crazy blonde nightmare.

15:56it was interesting the way that she writes about this troubled character who has a hard time keeping his alibi straight is just so entertaining and interesting and the way that she connects that with a historical event that you don't know much about and does it in a way that's still compelling and interesting I just think that the melding of the true crime the biography the history of it all but also making it just like an interesting story where you're connected to all these characters and makes it it's just such a good read and you had a moment where you were attempting to play harry in the on-screen version and we're in chat and in discussions with susan can you tell us about that yeah i i was talking to susan for a bit about it i i hope that there's still a way that we can adapt this into uh an incredible story uh on screen because i just i can see it clearly but yeah there was a moment in the pandemic where we were actively putting it together with a production company and then it lost a little bit of its momentum but it's not it's not dead yet we're gonna bring that fire back to the story you are a screenwriter as well you've had one film made I remember asking you how you learned to write screenplays and didn't you you took master class I just became I'm a member of master class and you could, it's an unlimited thing.

17:22So I listened to all of them, but I think I would say the biggest way I learned from, from screenwriting is just reading the screenplays that I love and watching it, watching the screenplay and reading or watching the movie while I'm reading the screenplay at the same time. Yeah. That's why I kind of taught myself how to do it. I would say I, of course the masterclasses were helpful, but I think the biggest that was the biggest teaching moment for me um and same with I think doing the memoirs just reading every single non-fiction celebrity memoir out there and seeing the things that I connected to things I liked the things I didn't like that was kind of my training tell me like your writing routine you've been known to pull over on a freeway and start writing on your laptop like you will really you will write anywhere anytime pulling over on my Honda Fit on the 405 to write a chapter I think I would love to say that I'm a writer who has a routine that I write five pages a day and that's my thing but I feel like my process maybe is getting it all out just the worst version possible even if it's with no commas or no every grammar mistake possible which I'm very guilty of I think my editor said she's never seen more commas in the wrong places in her lifetime but then once I start that first draft of it, it's just throwing everything up and it doesn't matter.

18:45I can't judge it. I can't go back and edit. I can't try to fix. I can't think about grammar, spelling mistake. That's just out of my head. And I just have to trust my instinct and first impulse. And then for me, writing is just rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and doing it over and over and over and over again and cleaning it up. And the biggest lesson I had with this was how much different it is being read out loud you know how yeah that was huge for me is I had a friend my friend's mother read it out loud on FaceTime and then reading it out loud and my voice on audible was huge.

19:19Susan Norlean has a new book coming out Joy Ride which is about it's I mean this has memoir components to it but this is really it feels like her writing manual will like it's the story of her writing life and she talks about something that i really related to in it is that she talks about her writing ambition yes how like she's constantly signing herself up for things that like you know there's a moment early on in the book where she talks about how she was asked to profile macaulay culkin for esquire yeah and instead she's like no i want to profile a 10 year old kid like i want to find one and just like write a cover story on him and then And she's like a week later, like, why the fuck didn't I just profile Macaulay Culkin?

20:01But I and I think that's something I really see with you. Like, no matter what. Well, I just think like you always do, whether it's with writing or acting or your schedule or not sleeping, you are always doing the hardest version of whatever you can be doing. The most insane version possible. Yeah. I can connect with that. I think I'm like, why didn't I just make it easy for myself? Why didn't I just abide by like a schedule and a thing? but I think that's just not where the best creative work comes in. Can we talk about the quote that she has in the book about wanting attention as a writer, seeking the external validation?

20:36Yeah, I texted it. It didn't let, see, I feel like it's... I have it. Disappointment and frustration are a constant. Most writers yearn for approval and acclaim, so among them you are guaranteed to encounter competitiveness and jealousy. Being a writer requires having the confidence to think you have something to say, but is almost always linked with the neediness of wanting an audience to hear and approve of it. The mix can be brutal. What does that mean to you? That's exactly how I feel articulated in the most beautiful way. It's that push and pull of writing. I mean, you know what it's like.

21:08I feel like you have to not have that inner critic or not have that audience awareness while you're in the middle of writing, but it's hard not. I mean, I'm a needy person, and I want approval, and I want praise, and I want people to tell me I did a good job, But I think also that is the thing that can ruin your art. It's really hard to be, speaking for myself now, so validation dependent and needing so much cause, so many compliments, and yet continuously putting my ideas and thoughts out there. It's like it feels so self-flagellating, but I also like don't know what else I would do. No, I feel the same way.

21:49I thrive on people telling me I did a good job in praise. But I think also that was something I had to silence or try to silence. It's always going to be there. It's a part of myself. But, like, that part of me that wants to be a good student or the part of me that feels bad that I wasn't a good student in school. So I want to make up for it. And I want the editors to tell me, like, what a good job I did and how beautiful that piece of writing was. or and in the other sense of them pushing back on some areas of don't write that or don't say that and having to trust my instinct and be like no this is why we need to put this in here and I understand and respect your opinion because they know what they're doing but at the same time I if I'm only looking for their approval and their praise and not trusting why I had that instinct to put it in there it's gonna it's gonna affect it there's some crazy stuff in there for sure there's some crazy metaphors in there name the name the one that's that you say say it with your chest uh i would say there's a there's a line about a nantucket sex worker and no i think like a whore i think you just like yeah yeah no it's something about a nantucket whore with a saltwater taffy analogy within that doesn't land quite make sense land but i stand by it live your truth Sometimes I found myself just kind of messing with them by the end of it and seeing if they would catch on some of the most insane things I had put in there.

23:18And they didn't. And let's see who's the joke. Who the joke is on. It might be everyone's favorite metaphor. I still stand by that one. I know you do. I know you hate it, but. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about ebglis? EbGliss Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies, EbGliss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

24:01Don't use if you are allergic to EbGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EpGliss. Before starting EpGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EpGliss and visit epgliss.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation plan b is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like doordash no id prescription or age requirement it's the number one ob-gyn recommended brand of emergency contraception and it won't impact your future fertility that's freedom to be use as directed the next book we have is one that um we also will much like the saltwater taffy analogy we will debate on okay the goldfinch by donna tart tell me why you love this book so much as i'm a massive donna tart fan secret history is one of my favorite books of all time i think she is probably the most incredible living writer we have today i just don't love this book so you're you would say the secret history is better than a hundred percent i disagree i love the secret history so tell me first of all i think that the way that donna talks about grief and loneliness and the gold finch is just so beautifully written the sensory details that she talks about you know i'm a sucker for that you know i love sensory details the way that she can really help you visualize and see the whole entire story in your head i just connected with the protagonist of that story so so much too it's so interesting because i do like i'm as someone who does really know you i'm picturing you connecting like with that like you're not an orphan like you have so many family members you know no it's not that aspect of it i know i know i'm just thinking about how like you as theo decker but i'm like you have so many brothers and like there's just people around you at all times growing up but i do feel like you have this uh like i just like see you fancying yourself as this character.

26:21I think it's more of like my the the wish that I was this outsider character that like was sent from place to place and didn't have a home and felt like he was always on the road that part of me I think I maybe I connect with wanting to be like that what was his friend's name when he goes to the Vegas? Boris you're a Boris. I'm more of a Boris that's so for sure yes I feel like Boris is really me. So if we could do the areas we agree on you love that part of that i love the vegas one but i'm saying also i know donna tart will never make another movie of any project of hers and there'll never be another goldfinch but i want just to stand alone just boris just the whole thing he you know the very debaucherous troublemaking russian bad influence best friend who he's constantly doing drugs with and blackout making out hooking up with and just I drinking acid in the desert with yeah and I think that's you know it does tie into like what I like about I love stories of people behaving badly and the secret history is just that encapsulated I mean they're you know having bacchanals and then murdering their friend and like that so I think to me and I also so I was thinking about it ahead of today like what I don't really connect to in the same way about this book and this is you know this is subjective like this is just me like we could you know i disagree yeah exactly but i think that i don't really like dickinsonian stories like i don't love like the you know um they're not magical realism but the way that you like go through this one life with a boy against the world and all these extraordinary things happen to him in his ordinary existence i'm thinking of other examples that i've read for this video series and just in my own life but like hearts invisible Furies didn't really hit for me.

28:12It's interesting like the orphan boy against the world is not entirely my shit. Maybe that's where I connect with it because I kind of like I prefer to know and maybe I'm a little more traditional. I want to know early on who who I'm rooting for. Who is the lead? Who is the protagonist? Whose journey are we following? I like a family story. Yeah. Look I or a community like you know secret history again yeah the found kind of family of them i love friends and like the corrections like i love the interpersonal relationships but don't you think there's an aspect of of the goldfinch that is him finding his found family in all these different places and totally continuously looking i think maybe that's where i connect to it is like i have lived a good amount of life and have lived in all these different places and thrown in these situations that were a little bit a little crazy or you know a little insane at the time but then finding finding those people and finding my home that maybe is where i like the goldfinch a bit i don't know i feel like look it's a booker prize pulitzer prize winning but people love it and i love the the writing is unbelievable you can't deny donna's writing ever nor would i ever attempt I mean she is the greatest I just sit around hoping wishing praying that we'll get another book from her soon I need another Donna Tartt book desperate I think like that's what would heal the world right now another Donna Tartt book Donna we need you we like desperately no we do desperately we really do god that book is so good though I just think when did you read it for the first time I was I think I was 17 or 18 when I read it and maybe that's a good age to read it I do think that's a good age to read it too I think that maybe vacillating between Theo and Boris and like that having where I thought both of them live inside of me at that at that time maybe also is why it hit so much yeah I wonder if I did a reread if it's still I think it's sold up I love that book I'm standing by and I love secret history too I just think I don't know there's certain books that I that bring me back to where I was at a certain place in time I'm like, I just remember like Beautiful Ruins, which I've talked to you about reading that on the beach in Italy.

30:38A similar, you know, a similar vibe of that book. I don't know. I think the environment of where I read a book also impacts of how much I love it. No, environment also like time of life. And like, you know, I think a lot about one of Donna. Donna went to Bennington with Bernice Tinellis, who we love. love and reading less than zero at about 18 years old when i had a lot of friends who were actively in addiction yeah in a very i mean i didn't grow up in los angeles in beverly hills but i grew up in a very privileged part of providence rhode island and just a lot of access to drugs and i reading that at 18 felt like i mean it goes back to what we were saying this full time just feeling incredibly seen yeah and I don't know I feel like Less Than Zero is the kind of book like if I read it for the first time at my big age of 32 I wouldn't connect to and I mean maybe I'd feel like a nostalgia for but that is that was a really fundamental reading experience for me yeah yeah I I agree with you completely I I want to shout out Brett Easton Ellis now Less Than Zero and Rules of Attraction are truly one of I feel like could have definitely been in his top five yeah i mean he's remarkable rules of attraction i remember reading that at a time where i was just starting to experiment too sexually sexually well experiment with men we were experimenting a lot earlier than that but um yeah feeling very seen in that story and feeling like just oh god he he writes about it so beautifully and and so in the movie is one of the one of the few movies I think to me holds up to the book yeah I really enjoyed it is incredible um but yes I remember reading that at a very pivotal time too that like yeah that it just connects at a certain period at a certain point where I feel seen I feel understood and I'm like there was a reason why I read it in this time they say never meet your heroes but you've met Brad Easton Ellis what is it like to hang out with him incredible it's everything I would have ever wanted.

32:47He's eccentric. He's super smart, very perceptive. And I'll never forget what he said to me when I left his apartment. It was truly ingrained into me. He said, I left. We had a meeting to talk about writing and I left. And then I hear the door open back up and he goes, Lucas. And I turn around and he goes, try to be happy. I was like what he's like just try to be happy and it really stuck with me and that was recent it was recent first of all afterwards I sat in the car and looked at myself in the mirror and was like am I happy am I do I not seem happy am I okay but I I think I get what he was saying I get I get it's such a you know there's simple advice but sometimes there's like few lines and And I talk about something in the book, like these two-word pieces of wisdom that I get from people I look up to.

33:47Like something so simple and not flowery or overly sentimental can really stick with you. There are some others in the book. What do you want to touch on? I think Jennifer Coolidge is telling me who cares. Yeah. It's just like two words that are something that I try to keep remembering when I spiral into these places where I think I had blown up my life. I'm never going to be in love again or I'm never going to you know work again I'm never going to be this happy so I don't know like there's all these moments where I'm just and I do feel like in the moment they feel so so important but by the next day I usually forget it you know if it and it's like it does it's not life or death in most of these situations so who cares yeah the final book that you brought was the Poisonwood Bible yes by Barbara Kingsolver when did you read this for the first time i read this one in vancouver actually an actor had recommended i i read it there's just there's another book that i was thinking about from childhood i love called the perfect score they also made into a movie about these kids that try to break in to get the sat oh yeah yeah movie's not great but the book's really good justin long or something yeah yeah yeah it's told from the perspective of all the different characters so every chapter is a different character in this book the poison one bible it's told from every member of the family that goes on this trip to Africa that turns out to be a little bit, I don't want to give anything away for people.

35:20They're not exactly welcome there. They're not exactly welcome in this situation, we'll say that. And a lot of things unfold that are quite haunting. But she does such a good job of telling the perspective of all, there's like eight people in this family, and each person has such a clear voice and a perspective, and some of them don't align with other people's perspective of what's happening in a situation. And that's so funny. Like every person can have a completely wildly different take on what's going on in their version of reality. She writes incredibly. Just like her, I think I'm a big sensorial guy too.

35:55So like her descriptions of things, I'm so in. This was another one that was, I think is also, they're still working on adapting as well into an HBO show. Oh, wow. I think Amy Adams was attached to play the mother. Yeah. There's no roles for me. I'm desperately hoping that they do this and do this one justice. But, yeah, I'm a big Barbara Kingsolver fan as well. I love her, how she plays with, I mean, memory. And, you know, I think about something I think about a lot is, like, the idea that even with siblings, you don't have the same parents. Like, everybody's parent has a different parent, a different, like, yeah because the relationships are so different you've now shared your book with most of your family yeah what are there any instances that they just remember it totally differently something in the book my brothers and I had all the very shared aligned experiences and all my brothers confidently could say that was exactly what happened my mom not so much yeah and I totally understand why and something you write about too that my mom was rewriting the truth constantly I mean I think I love my mom my best friend the most incredible amazing woman in the world but I do believe maybe some of my lying I learned from her and I completely understand why she would lie she would do it to protect herself to protect her family to rewrite this version of a family that she wanted and had always dreamed of.

37:32And so for her to read the book, I think that she had told herself such a different narrative for so long that she wanted to hold on to that. And had to really hear from me and my brothers that like, no, that's 100 % accurate to what happened. And then I think the denial went away and she can acknowledge it. And I think it's just really, it's hard. I think some of the stuff, especially with her kids in this book is the hardest thing for her. Yeah. The title of this book is I Wrote This for Attention. which you're now getting a lot of attention. I mean, you're starting to do your press circuit.

38:05Every day on Instagram stories, someone new and excited. So many people are, yeah, you've had such an outpouring of support from. Really cool. What is it like to be getting the attention that you wrote it for? It's the same thing that I write about in the book. I'm constantly contradicting this feeling that I have about attention is desperately yearning for validation, attention, praise, being told that I've done a good job, but also being very scared of it, scared to be misunderstood or to hurt anybody or hurt my people that I love with the book. So I think it's this push and pull that I feel with attention is I both desperately want it and desperately hate it, and I'm afraid of it, but I love it at the same time.

38:52It's, I don't know, it's the, It's the core of this book is exactly what I'm feeling in this moment of I love it, but I hate it. I want it, but I want to hide. So this kind of attention, though, I feel it's good. Is it in the words of Freddie Snellis? Are you happy? I am happy. I'm content. Happiness is I don't know. I don't think happiness is hard for me. Loving myself is hard for me. that feels like a little too hard but being content and and feeling um joy yeah happiness is harder if you could play any literary character who would it be on screen i'm gonna go with boris it would be boris i want to go with boris from goldfinch yep okay i really like that for you i would love to i would love to and who is your literary crush it's also boris fiction or non-fiction either one both literary crush i think i'm gonna go with brett east and ellis oh i meant a character but like you can but also yeah i don't know i yeah yeah um it's just brett just brett um brett if you're watching this hit me up yeah he's very happy um

40:12no i don't know i don't know what this one

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