Gloria Steinem: Letting the Road Take You

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1:11Hey there, podcast listeners. I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in In addition to Super Soul Conversations, it's called Oprah's Masterclass. The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures and athletes in their own words. Listen as Jay-Z, Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O 'Neal, Reba McIntyre, Dwayne Johnson and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class.

1:55Oprah's Masterclass podcast is available now on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcast.com slash Oprah's Masterclass. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. In 1968, women's liberation was just taking its foothold in the United States. Gloria Steinem first gained national attention in 1963 after writing an expose about her experience going undercover as a Playboy Bunny.

2:44In 1972, Gloria co-founded the now iconic Ms. Magazine, focused on the empowerment of women. Now, five decades later, she's a Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Harper's Bazaar called Gloria Steinem one of the most daring women of both the 20th and 21st centuries. Gloria Steinem continues to travel the world to fight for the rights of women. And though the battle is ongoing, at 81, she's as open-hearted as she is wise, eternally hopeful about the future. I know you are a role model for so many people, including myself, a visionary, an icon. You're all of that, and of course, a hero to millions of women.

3:30You know, my producer and I were saying this morning, I said, we should all wake up every morning, say, thank you, God. Thank you, Gloria Steinem and all the leaders of the women's movement. Because I think so often we forget where we were 50 years ago. Can you believe how far we've come and yet how far we have to go? No, I'm mad every day about where we have to go, actually. Really? Right. And I don't, you know, we get to be icons to each other because we see each other in the media. and in some ways what we see in the media seems more real than we are. Yes. The media amplifies everything. Yeah, but we're all in this together.

4:06Yes. But it's a movement. It's a group. It's a group. It has to be a group. But you say that the, you know, icon, visionary, hero, that the word hopeaholic actually describes you best. What do you mean by that? Well, I think that one of the most fundamental differences between people is whether they see the world as basically friendly or basically unfriendly. And I think that probably comes from the way we're brought up. You know, were we lucky enough to be loved and valued when we were children and to see a friendly world, which I was. Yes. And I'm grateful for that. And so, so actually you describe it in this book, My Life on the Road, as the lens in which we choose to see whether life becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

4:58Right. The lens that we choose to look through makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. It does, doesn't it? It does. I actually agreed with you and I actually underline that in my book because it's actually also how I see the world, too, is the biggest question is, is it for me or against me? Right? Right. And it isn't as if it's blind optimism. It's important to be skeptical because otherwise we don't use our energies very well. But if you don't have hope, you're defeated before you start. I mean, hope is a form of planning. So it's important that we have that because we have to be conscious of the possibility of change in order to pursue it.

5:39So at 81 years old, you're working tirelessly. Yes. Well, you have to know. I'm so grateful. You just said I'm 81 years old because I'm trying to convince myself. But you are. I tell people on the street that I'm 81. And you tell them why, because the number itself... Because I don't believe it. You don't believe it. Because I don't believe it, right. Yeah. Well, I remember turning 60 and being hit with that number in a way that I hadn't been hit with any numbers before. Like, whoa, 60. When did that moment happen for you? Well, it's interesting you say 60 because that was... Well, 50 for me was hard because it was the end of the central years of life, the gendered years of life in a way, you know, from 13 to 50.

6:23Yeah. But 60 was great because it was beyond the kind of feminine prison. Yes. You could be your own self. Right. And 70 was somewhat like that too. But 80 is about mortality. You know, I mean, I have to understand that even though I'm going to live to 100, in my opinion, that's only 19 years. But there's just so much I want to do. And also, I love it here. You know, what makes it hard to imagine leaving is not the hard parts. It's the parts you love. And what has loved you and you have loved the most about it? Well, I think those moments when for no reason, really, you suddenly feel at one with everything.

7:12You feel boundaryless. And also, if I just meet somebody in the supermarket or on the street and they tell me how a social justice something, the women's movement, something has changed their lives. and you get a sense of a story that's a different story because of something we contributed to, that's, you know, infinitely, infinitely rewarding. Hi, it's Ashley from OWN. Between diets, workouts, and endless advice, it's hard to know what actually works for weight loss and what's worth your time. That's why HERS offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications that now includes the Wagovi pill and the Wagovi pen.

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9:58Wayfair, every style, every home. Well, I love the story in Life on the Road where you tell about the Purple Motorcycle story. Oh, in South Dakota. Yeah, South Dakota. Set that up for us. Yeah. Well, I was going to a powwow, actually, with our friend Alice Walker and others. We were all meeting there. And once we were at the airport in Rapid City, we saw all these motorcycles. We couldn't understand why. And they had been on the plane, too, guys in chains and, you know, studded jackets and everything. So we realized it was some kind of motorcycle rally. And the waitress told us that. And we were afraid of the motorcyclists, I have to say, as a group of women, because everything that we'd seen in the press and in movies was about motorcyclists as, you know, treating women as possessions, being dangerous in various ways.

10:55So I was sitting in the little dining room of the motel where we were, full of motorcyclists, and I was trying to be cool and also open-minded. And open-minded, yes. Right, right, right. And one of the motorcycle wives, she came over and she said, she said, I just want to tell you, I really enjoy Ms. Magazine. What? Yes, right, I couldn't believe it. And then she said, isn't that woman with you? Isn't that Alice Walker? I really like her poetry. I mean, you know, it just teaches you so much about stereotypes. Yes. But then she also said, now look out the window, and you see that purple motorcycle out there in the parking lot, said, that's mine.

11:39Now she had her own motorcycle. She used to ride on the back of her husband's. It had Ms. on the license plate. Oh, my goodness. And she said, you should see my grandkids when Grandma drives up in her purple motorcycle. It was just wonderful. And so my conclusion is that we all have a purple motorcycle inside. And what that story shows us is that we all make prejudgments about people in our lives. I was telling you that when I read that story, it reminded me of the time of running on a road in Indiana and being approached by this pickup truck. And the pickup truck had a Confederate flag in the back.

12:23So naturally, I was like, no, and I'm out here by myself. And why did I come by myself? And, you know, what am I going to do? The guy pulls over and he's slowing down. to tell me that he loves watching the Oprah show with his wife. It's just one of those pickup truck moments, one of those purple motorcycle moments. Right, right. The pursuit of change has taken Gloria to virtually every corner of the earth. She lives in what she calls an open road state of mind, leaving herself open to encounters and experiences that inform her life's work. My Life on the Road is Gloria's first book in 20 years.

13:01So what has your life on the road, I mean, reading this, you've lived more time on the road than off, I think. Really? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So it feels like that being on the road is a way of being with you. It has become a part of who you are, being out there on the road. And not just on the road, but your on-the-road state of mind. Can you tell me about that? It didn't happen on purpose, like so much in life. It happened accidentally. because I couldn't get published what I wanted to say about the women's movement when it was new and exploding. And so I ended up going out with a friend on the road to speak.

13:41And that led to, you know, years of on the road organizing. And I discovered, as I never otherwise would have, I think, that what happens in a room when you are present cannot happen on the printed page or on the screen. It's really true that the hormones that allow us to empathize with each other are only produced when we're together in all five senses. It isn't to devalue the page or the screen, but it's just different. And I guess I discovered my form of meditation. I mean, I've taken two meditation courses. I believe in it, but I don't do it. But what the road does is force you to live in the present.

14:26in that way. There's just an infinite amount of learning and it's in the moment. It forces you to live in the moment. And what is clear in your life on the road is that it doesn't mean we all have to go to South Dakota or we have to travel to India. It means in your everyday experiences, whether you're in the supermarket or whether you're going to the dry cleaners, it's being able to listen with that kind of openness to... Yeah, it's an on-the-road state of mind. Yeah. And it's, I can only compare it to, you know, when you see birds riding a current? Mm-hmm. It's like that. Or a surfer riding the waves.

15:06Or it's just being open. It means being in the flow. Just being open. Yeah. And if you are in a place where you're more powerful than the people around you, being sure to listen as much as you talk. And if you're less powerful, being sure to talk as much as you listen. And your adventures led you actually in the beginning from that first trip to India to understand that we communicate in circles. Can you talk about that? Well, I learned that in India by good luck, by accident, was walking through Indian villages with a Gandhian group trying to get a message of we care about you to an area where there had been riots.

15:52So we were just traveling by foot and being fed by the villagers and so on. And every night we would sit around a kerosene lamp and the villagers would tell terrible stories of what was happening. But by the end of a few hours, the very fact that they could talk to each other, that they weren't alone in experiencing this would begin to transform the group. And the Gandhians were saying to me, it's just very simple rules. You know, if you want people to listen to you, you have to listen to them. If you want to know how people live, you have to go where they live. You know, everyone has a story.

16:30You have to listen to each other's stories and sit in a circle. And every movement that we care about, you know, I mean, the Civil Rights Movement came out of churches in the south, people testifying and telling their stories, and the women's movement, women sitting in circles. You know, we are communal people. But it took me a while to realize that what I had learned in India had any application in the rest of my life. Well, in order for truth to be truth, it applies to all things, really. It does. Very, remember that. That's a very... That's what I've figured out in all of my interviews. For to be truthful, it has to apply to all things.

17:11It applies to everything. Well, it took me a decade. I should have met you earlier. So you say that you always believed at some point that you would stop and settle down, and then you experienced a shift. What happened? Well, I think I got rid of the myth, you know, that we're supposed to grow up and settle down. Those two things go together. and also since I, in my childhood, had lived in a house trailer with my parents most of each year as we voyaged from Michigan to Florida or California. And my father was kind of buying and selling antiques along the way. And I, of course, wanted to be like other kids.

17:47I wanted to go to school like other kids. So I thought I was rebelling against a traveling way of life. But really what was happening was I was finding my own. That's right. And also something my father ever did, which is making a home. Yes. So my discovery is really that we all need both, I think. You say this in the introduction. Taking to the road, by which I mean letting the road take me, changed who I thought I was. The road is messy. Leads us out of denial and into reality. Out of theory and into practice. Out of caution and into action. Out of our heads and into our hearts. Now, this is what got me.

18:29It's right up there with life-threatening emergencies and truly mutual sex as a way of being fully alive in the present. I said, Gloria is comparing the joy of travel with the joy of sex. You really have found a secret. Oh, my goodness. Traveling is like sex? Really? Not all the time. Not all the time. Like sex is not that way all the time. Correct. Correct. But it is about spontaneity. I mean, and it takes you out of yourself. You find yourself in a completely different world, you know, in a roadhouse and it's snowing and there's somehow a guy there who's a tango teacher and you find yourself, I mean, tangoing.

19:08Boy, you have had some adventures. You have had some adventures. Right. Gloria Steinem was 10 years old when her parents divorced. With her sister already in college, she became the sole caregiver to her mother. Gloria writes that her mother Ruth suffered from depression, anxiety, and delusions. Issues Gloria believes stem from a broken spirit and a life unlived. When she was 26, she moved to New York City on her own to pursue a career in writing, a dream her mother once pursued for herself. Have you thought about, really, how your mother's struggles influenced your work in the feminist struggle?

19:49Yeah, that also took me a while. You know, I think we spend a lot of time saying I'm not going to be anything like my mother before we realize that it's not an individual fault. It's a collective fate. and so I too went through that period of time but I do realize looking back that I mean my mother was a pioneer journalist before I was born I didn't even know that until much later she gave up everything not because my father forced her to but that was the way the world ran she had what was then called a nervous breakdown but I mean she was really institutionalized for a couple of years and then just to survive, you know, became her goal.

20:37And she was, you know, wonderful, smart, loving person. But I began to realize that actually I was living out her unlived life. And I think a lot of women, hopefully that will pass because women will be able to live out their own lives. But it's still true, I think, for a lot of us. And it made me understand that my mother had no journey of her own. My father had no home of his own. And we all need both. We all need both. I appreciated that your mother once told you that if she had left your father, you would have never been born. And I read that you never found the courage to say to her what you really wanted to say to her about that.

21:26Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, she, because I would, of course, be saying to her, because she had told me that she fell in love with someone else in the newspaper office, and I, and she wanted to go to New York, and I was saying, but why didn't you marry this other guy? Go to New York with your girlfriend, you know, and then she would say, but then you never would have been born. And I so wanted to say to her, but then you would have been born. But I couldn't say because it couldn't happen. If there had been a chance of it happening still, I would have said it. You would have said it. To have said it would just seem cruel to say, well, you didn't have the life.

22:03I couldn't say it. Right. So has the travel and the experiences with people, has that been your spiritual path? Yes, I think so, because of the living in the moment, communicating with other people part of it, which I think is a spiritual experience. Yeah. Right. And what's the difference between religion and spirituality for you? Oh, huge. Religion is politics in the sky, mostly. I mean, God looks like the ruling class a suspicious amount of time. Even Jesus is blonde and blue-eyed in the middle of the Middle East. God is a guy. Guys, you know, spirituality is in everything, in all living things.

22:52You know, I had to go to have a minor medical something in a hospital just for a few hours, but they make you fill out a little form, including religion. So first I was going to put none, but then I thought it's a little negative. So I put pagan. Pagan? Yeah. So the nurse said to me, what does pagan mean? I said, it just means you believe there's godliness in all living things. I converted around the spot. Really? Yes. I mean, I think we're natural pagans. And when we see now the political uses of religion, religion is politics we're not supposed to talk about. And we have to talk about it. I spoke with former President Jimmy Carter recently, sitting right in that chair.

23:41And one of the things he said was that ending violence actually against women around the world has been a part of his life's mission. And now for the first time in the world, there are more males and females as a result of violence against women in the world. Yes, it is the first that we're aware of. And it's because of the preference for sons. Now there's a son surplus and a daughter deficit in much of India and China. Yes. It's because of female genital mutilation, which he, Jimmy Carter, you know, he sat on television on David Letterman and talked about female genital mutilation. I thought, thank you.

24:21I know. They never would have let me do it. Yeah. Right. He's been wonderful about it. Child marriage and domestic violence in the United States, which is huge. But we talk about foreign terrorism, but not about domestic terrorism. What is that about us as human beings that, right, obviously foreign terrorism is a concern, obviously, you know, attacks on our beliefs are a concern, but right in our midst where you see it happening every day, what is that about us we're able to overlook that? Well, I think it's that we confuse it with culture. We think it's inevitable somehow. We assume that the masculine controls the feminine.

25:08Of course, there is no masculine and feminine. There's human. But we set a pattern that said it's okay for one group to control another. And dominate another. Right. Who lived intimately on this land where we are before Europeans showed up were one of 500 or so Native nations whose paradigm of life, very sophisticated, very sophisticated cultures, whose paradigm of life was a circle, not a pyramid. So people were linked. We were not ranked like this. And if we start ranking each other in the family, we think it's natural. We think it's culture. We think that there's no other way. And there is another way.

25:54The old languages, most of the ones I know, don't even have gendered pronouns. They don't have he and she. They don't have a concept of race. They don't have a word for nature, because we're not separate from nature. Because it's all one. Right, it's all one. When the statues are erected to you, what will the inscription say? What do you want it to say about your contribution? The closest, I'll just answer, because I can't imagine that. Okay, so the closest I can come to it is that a bunch of my women friends, wonderful human beings, who on my 80th birthday, we all went elephant riding. Yes, I know.

26:34Yeah, right. They gave me the most wonderful present, which is a wooden bench, not like the metal kind, but a beautiful wooden bench in Central Park. And on the back is a plaque. And it says to Gloria Steinem on her 80th birthday and something about the women's movement. And then it says, and to her hero, Sojourner Truth, who said, unless all of us are free, none of us is free. So we just, I love that because I'm not there by myself. I don't want to be on a statue by myself. I want people to know what I've learned, which is that change starts from the bottom, not the top. It's like a tree. And we have to stay connected to each other.

27:20So I'm happy that I'm there connected across distance with Sojourner. And you say we've got to learn that we're more linked and that there's less ranking but more linking. So what do you believe is the root of sexism? Controlling reproduction. To try to control reproduction. If we didn't have wombs, we'd be fine, if you know what I mean. And it's doubly important when there's a lot of racism, because if you're going to perpetuate racial separation, you have to control reproduction even more so. And the root of racism, you think? Well, I think anthropologically speaking, it is seeing difference in your family, seeing a dominant and a passive role, seeing cheap labor, seeing unpaid, and then turning other people into it outside the family.

28:13If you can own a woman as the means of production, you can own a slave as a laborer. It's not about, you know, I know that the academic word is intersection, which is a very good word. But I think intertwined is an even more graphic way of saying that racism and sexism can only be uprooted at the same time. What's important to you now? You don't ask small questions. It's Supercell Sunday. They're the big questions. What's important to you now? Well, actually, the first thing that came into my head when you said that is that Wilma Manculler, who was the chief of the Cherokee Nation and a dear friend and an amazing woman, she and I were, before she died, writing a book, trying to write a book about original cultures around the world and what very simple, practical things we can learn.

29:12Yeah. And each thing was a chapter. For instance, in a culture in Ghana, when someone does something antisocial and destructive, that person is indeed punished with isolation. But when that person is brought back into the group, there is a long ritual amount of time in which everyone who knows that person tells them every good thing they ever did. we could do that but we do the opposite with prisoners the opposite they can't vote they can't work i think we understand it a bit better with children positive reinforcement right but we could do that yeah hey it's page from giggly squad and i want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products you have to go to sephora i'm obsessed with the one size liquid blotting paper spray it's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours.

30:10It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kayali Eden Plush Pair smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive. Like, people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora. The grill is shot. The chairs are held together by optimism. And what happened to the rug? Sounds like your outdoor setup is not ready for patio season. Fix it all with Wayfair. Shop Wayfair for grills, rugs, furniture, and more.

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31:08What is the truth that you use that embraces your daily life? Meaning, what is your creed? I don't know if I have a creed exactly. I mean, I have a series of creeds, I guess. You know, like, the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. You're very famous for that one. Right, I don't know. I mean, I just, right, right. I guess it's just being open. You know, you just never know. Is that the quality you admire most in others? Yeah, I think so. Being centered, it's not one thing or the other. I think it's a balance between qualities that's the important thing. And each of us is unique, and each of us is human.

31:57So it's a balance between uniqueness and my story and your story. When I asked you, when I was saying at the beginning of our conversation here, you must wake up on some days and just think, wow, life is so much different now than it was. So many things have changed for women. I've said to you many times before, I certainly wouldn't be able to hold the seat and the space that I do in the culture had it not been for you and so many other women of the movement. But you said you think about all the so many things that still need to change. Yeah, I live in the future. You live in the future. So what still pisses you off?

32:36How long do we have? Well, what pisses me off in a very fundamental way is that reproductive freedom is not a basic human right, like freedom of speech, freedom of worship, and so on. Because we each get to... I mean, the power of the government needs to stop at our skins, male or female. You know, there's a boundary here. Okay. What still inspires you? What inspires you? Just the little things inspire me. You know, the 10-year-old girl who's playing football, and she's littler than the boys, but she's actually better than a lot of the boys, and she just keeps playing. Right. And that women have started, young women really, have started a major part of a black liberation movement now and are very clear about it and talk about it as a sisterhood.

33:38I mean, it's for men and women, but they talk about themselves as a sisterhood. What other things do you look at and you marvel where you see women in positions and spaces that couldn't have been possible without the women's movement? I see women directing traffic in New York and doing it very well and ordering everybody around and blowing their whistle. And then saying to me as I cross the street, give him hell, honey.

34:08I love that. I love that. What would you say to your younger self? What would you say that... It's just a girl there. I would say do more of what you can uniquely do and less of what other people can do. That's good advice for anybody. And also we're more likely to do what we care about if we say to ourselves, can I uniquely do this? And what are you most proud of for yourself? I haven't done it yet. You haven't done it yet? Okay. I get that. I get that. Yeah, right. Because, I mean, I can think of lots of things I'm proud of, but I do live in the future, and I do have so many more hopes. And what is God for you?

35:02God is living energy. Everything that has living energy is part of God. That's good. Whoa. I'm going to be using that. God is living energy thank you thank you I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations the podcast you can follow Super Soul on Instagram Twitter and Facebook if you haven't yet go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate and review this podcast join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation thank you for listening

35:46Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and I want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products, you have to go to Sephora. I'm obsessed with the One Size Liquid Blotting Paper Spray. It's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours. It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kayali Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive. Like people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora.

36:25The grill is shot. The chairs are held together by optimism. And what happened to the rug? Sounds like your outdoor setup is not ready for patio season. Fix it all with Wayfair. Shop Wayfair for grills, rugs, furniture, and more. With 20 million five-star reviews, room of choice delivery, and experts set up on qualifying orders, it's never been easier to do more for less. Get 10 % off your first eligible purchase. Hurry to Wayfair.com or download the app now.