Debbie Ford: The Shadow Belief

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1:06I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. I first met the author and spiritual teacher Debbie Ford when she appeared on my show back in 2000. She taught me and millions of our viewers about shadows, those hidden beliefs we have about ourselves that keep us from reaching our full potential. Debbie returned to our stage two more times and you could see the light bulbs going off.

1:48Now it's been more than a decade and Debbie Ford has decided to come forward out of a shadow she has never talked about before. On a beautiful, crisp, clear day in Santa Barbara, we met under the oaks in my backyard for a talk neither one of us expected to have. So today you're going to be talking about something, a subject that you weren't, I heard that until we called you, you weren't even sure you were going to be talking about in public. That is true. That is. And you've decided that you're comfortable enough to do it. Yes. When I got the call, I knew that it was a bigger call and that it was time.

2:26And I wasn't ready before, of course. So you've been battling cancer. I've been battling cancer now. I've had it for almost probably 11 years if we go all the way back. But really been sick with it the last year and a half. Like it finally got me. You know, and it's an interesting story because I got pneumonia. And because nothing else I've tried to do, I haven't listened. Because I had such a deep state of denial and I physically felt well. And then all of a sudden I got pneumonia, which landed me in the hospital and started the whole cancer kind of unraveling. and wound up 100 pounds and sick.

3:17I've still been fighting that for, well, I don't think I'm really fighting it, but still going through it. Going through it. I think it's so interesting that you, Debbie Ford, author of The Dark Side of the Light Chasers, would say that you were in denial because you write on page 59, think of denial as an acronym for don't even notice I am lying. You say we only fear feedback if we know on some level that we've been lying to ourselves If you honestly feel that what someone thinks about you has no basis in reality, you won't care We care when we've been deceiving ourselves and get called on it So what were you deceiving yourself about that?

3:56I was sick really? Yes, I had a surgery after the Oprah shows that where they found a tumor that was about this big, and I'm not very big. So it was really a shock that they took that out of me. But it's a certain kind of cancer that it's encapsulated, meaning that it doesn't go in your tissues, so you don't need to go in half. So after the Oprah show, 11 years ago, you went in and you had a surgery. I had a surgery. And they took this tumor out that I heard was about five pounds. Yes. Yes, on your little body. On my little body. Yes. And so they took the tumor out and you thought, I'm cured. That's it.

4:34Did you ever go back and have someone say, you know, you're cancer free? They basically said, you don't have any cancer in your body and because it's inside this tumor and we took it out and, you know, get checked every year. And I was still in denial. I was like, okay. They would ask me, you know, you go to the doctors, they ask you if you ever had cancer. I would say no. Really? Why? I guess I didn't want to have cancer. I didn't. Were you trying to do it as a, as a, as a, as a sort of a spiritual tool of only thinking you believe, as thinking you believe, or were you just in denial? I was just in denial.

5:14I mean, I didn't notice I was, I didn't know I was lying to myself because I just thought, well, they took it out. They're saying there's nothing they can do. There's no cancer in my body. So I must not have cancer. And I think at the time, you know, I grew up, I was like the little sick one. Yes. And I decided at some point, because my sister and brother was strong and smart, and you know, my whole act, my whole persona got created out of, I'm going to be strong like them. And so it didn't allow me to have cancer, you know, inside of my whole belief system. Well, one of the other things that you say, I'm looking at the page, that we're only as sick as our secrets.

5:56These secrets make it impossible for us to be our authentic selves. But when you make peace with yourself, the world will mirror back that same level of peace. When you're in harmony with yourself, you will be in harmony with everyone else. That's page 62, the dark side of the light chasers. So have you gotten to that space yet? I feel like I'm sitting here today because I am at peace with the cancer, and I am clear that I have cancer and that I have to take care of myself first. But it was a long journey. Isn't it true, this is what my producers have told me, that you practically had to be laid before death's door before you would come to this recognition?

6:39Exactly. Really? They were about to, like, this... You were, like, in hospice care, practically. They wanted to put... One doctor wanted to put me in hospice care. I'm like, are you crazy? Do you think you're God? I'm not dying. You know, which that's kind of the healthy part of denial. So during this whole process, death never occurred to you. Never occurred to you that you were sick enough to be in the position to actually check out. No. No. What occurred to me is that there was parts of me that wanted to check out, which was very interesting for me to see. Because I was so busy and moved so fast.

7:15whether I was writing or making a film or traveling, giving a lecture, that I didn't have the time to dwell in, you know, the cancer. Even though I'd been flying to Dana-Farber, MD Anderson, or finding out what they're doing, I would do the medicine on my terms, not on what they told me. You know, and it's a level of arrogance, just, you know, when you really look at it, that I was so arrogant that I thought, what do these people know? And it was really that I didn't know, and I was just projecting all of that onto them. Has it been humbling? Absolutely. Shockingly humbling. In what way? Well, I mean, I think that I thought that one thing was is that I deserve some kind of protection because of the work I do in the world.

8:13Like, you know, I started to uncover. Because you are a spiritual thought leader, because you teach people about finding their own path to spirituality, you thought that you should be immune to cancer. To cancer. Mm-hmm. Really felt that. And I saw the arrogance of that. But, you know, the humbling part is to, one, even think the thought that I could be so out of it, so out of touch with reality, that I couldn't grasp, even after all these years, that I had a terminal, what they consider, you know, a terminal disease. What do you think this disease has taught you about yourself and about your shadow in particular?

9:05I think it's all really about my shadow. Although I do have to say that I really learned on the positive side about love. Because I was so busy giving that I wasn't able to receive. and I think the things that I learned about my shadow was the whole arrogance piece and the level of denial in which somebody who lives in the world of the shadow and talks about people's shadow all the time could be fooled by it that none of us you know and that's what's always fascinated me about the shadow is it's so tricky like none of us are immune to life you know, what we turn into a possibility, but it starts out as some kind of horrible trauma.

9:58So for someone who is just awakening to the idea, how would you describe what that means to have the shadow self? There are our beliefs, and then there are our shadow beliefs that keep us really that are unconscious, subconscious, and keep us from really moving forward in our lives. Yes. And I think for somebody who's first hearing the conversation, it's a part of us that is really, I call it our wounded ego. It's a part of us that's been wounded the shadow. And it's what we try to hide about ourselves. I mean, that's the greatest thing. If you think about what do I love most about myself, you know, and me before I would have said that I can just go and go and take on and, you know, do.

10:50And now I see that's a shadow of mine. What kind of person, that's what we always ask, what kind of person would do that? Somebody who doesn't want to be seen as weak or lazy. Because that's what I heard about my father growing up, that he was lazy. So then I don't want to be that. So I become like super busy fast and it goes into my shadow, not even knowing that one day it's going to come up and get me. So we want to explore. It's not about getting rid of the darkness or the pain or the events that happen to us, but it's about bringing the light in and making the shadow light instead of having it use us.

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12:33Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. I know in the shadow effect, both you, well, the three of you, you, Marianne and Deepak, write about the, and Marianne so beautifully years ago talked about our deepest fear is not that we're inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure.

13:21Is the shadow always about what we're afraid of? Yes, the shadow is always fear-based, right? I don't want to be that. What we judge, I don't want to be that. I'll never be like my mother. You know, people are always saying that, or my father, or, you know, it's always a push away. That's how we know it's a judgment. It's when somebody says something to us and, you know, we have that jarring effect and it makes us angry. We know it's our shadow because otherwise we wouldn't care. But isn't the ultimate shadow belief? And I'm just asking, maybe it isn't. So is the ultimate shadow belief that I'm not good enough?

13:59Well, I think that there's a couple of cores. I'm not good enough. I'm unlovable, right? Another form of I'm not good enough is I'm unworthy. And I think women more than anybody have that innately inside of them. So those are, you know, three very powerful shadow beliefs that birth all the other ones that come along. And if we understand it, we understand that it's not about hating these, which most people are fighting, right? They're resisting. I was just resisting this shadow called cancer, you know, but it's about embracing, like, why would I have this? And how could I use this? And I know you and I talked about it, I think, 11 years ago about, you know, how do you feel worthy enough?

14:48And how do we feel strong enough, no matter who we are? And I think Marianne is right because we're born with so many gifts that have been so suppressed that we can't allow that real self. And if you can't allow the dark to exist, then you can't allow the light. I think the real question boils down to worthiness, though, because I, as you have, work with people, talk to people, heard thousands of stories over the years. Everybody believes they deserve to be happy. Most people don't believe they're worthy of happiness. And there's a big difference between I think I deserve this than to know that I am truly worthy of this.

15:28Would you say? Yes. And I think that the worthiness comes from this place where you know that you're connected to something bigger than yourself. And that you can't get that except through spiritual. That's why I love the work you're doing because you can't get it unless you have some attachment to spirituality and the bigger world. I know you've coached tens of thousands of people about the shadows and what they were going through and helping people, even many people with cancer. Was there a time where you wanted to blurt out, I have cancer too? No. No? No. No. What did you think or fear would happen if you shared it?

16:16I think that it would all become about me. And that these people came about them. And that I didn't want, because it's interesting now if I tell somebody, you know, that's kind of outside my circle. You know, they all have advice or I'm sending you energy or I'm working on you. And I don't want them to work on me. I don't want other people's energy on me. Was there a part of you, I was thinking this when I first heard, that when my producers told me that you were going through cancer. I was thinking, oh, that's interesting, because cancer would have to make you vulnerable or make you somehow feel vulnerable.

17:02And my biggest impression of you from the outside looking in is that you are not a person who wants to be vulnerable. It's probably true. And I would say that now it's maybe part of my light shadow, being able to be that transparent. And the vulnerability of love. I mean, that's really what I see is that there was, forget about the loving the people close to me. But it was letting love in that was so hard. Because you're used to giving and not receiving. Receiving. And not being able to receive, yeah. And that is just, was so shocking to me. And then to feel people call me, all of my friends, and give me so much love.

17:47And I think I would just start crying like they love me. And I never felt the love. I knew they loved me, but I couldn't feel it inside. And so that is, I love that I got that. That's what I needed. That's kind of my next growth step. You know, my evolutionary edge is to allow that part out and to feel the love that comes in to me every day that I just ignore or take for granted. I think more ignore it. And I don't even want to hear it. And why do you and what was that? Because I'm asking because I think that's a shadow. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That was a shadow that didn't want to let it in. Yeah.

18:36Right. For fear of? I think my fear is that I would just, and I had seen it before, that I would just get so big for my bridges that I would blow myself up. And I think that's why, right, why good people do bad things? Because I've seen it happen to so many people in my business who just get so fluffed up by their egos that they can't, they're no longer with the people. And I think that's always been a fear, which I should have looked at, because when you constantly have a fear that comes up that you don't want to be that, you know you've got a shadow lurking around. But I thought it was a good shadow.

19:15Yeah. I wanted people to think about this. You all write, Deepak and Marianne and yourself, in The Shadow Effect. Talk about the shadow effect test. How long have you been working on the same issues? be they in the area of your career, your health, your intimate relationships, or finances. And you ask the question, less than 12 months, one to three years, you've been working. If the thing comes up over and over and over and over again, that's a definite sign that you're living in a shadow, correct? Yes, absolutely. Or many of them. And we all have them. And it's really nothing to be embarrassed about or ashamed about that.

19:55It's part of, I think, how our soul grows. We learn from these, you know. I see the learning that I have today. Nobody could teach me what I know today about healing and courage and how to bring forth oneself in the darkest times, or even how to choose life. Because for a while, I just had to choose, I want to live. Even though I didn't know why, because I didn't want to work anymore. I didn't want to give anymore. I had no energy to do anything, you know, so I've started with my son. I want to live because I want my son to at least get through college. And so that gave me something. And, you know, taking these little pieces and seeing, making a list every day to reasons to live.

20:43And I think a lot of people, my oncologist would tell you, most people just give up. And you refuse to give up. Absolutely. Absolutely. When you were asked to write a book on courage, when was that? That was about three and a half years ago. About three and a half years ago, before you went through this fire. Right. Yes. So you started out writing a book about courage, and in the writing of the book about courage, you weren't even talking about having cancer or dealing with cancer. No, and I still haven't written the intro to that book. Really? That's coming out in a couple of months because it's the one all about cancer.

21:18Yeah. But I literally, the timing was so magical because I'm ready to talk about it, you know. Now. Now. Right now. You weren't ready to talk about it. Not even two weeks ago. Not even two weeks ago. Yeah. My publisher had asked me, will you talk about this? I think you need to bring the cancer out. And I said, okay. And then your producer called. I said, that is just too far out. Too far out. When you started writing the book about courage, you were in one place in space. That was before you literally were placed at, you know, at death's door. What do you know now that you didn't know three years ago?

22:00That I knew nothing about courage. I thought because I was a shadow person, I knew everything about courage. Wow. I would just say to you know what I would say to him I do say to myself but what I would say to anybody facing any life challenge or disease you know is that you know that is courage to choose life to keep looking at what's good or finding a friend or a family member Cheryl Richardson used to send me texts every day just believe that I believe because I would call you know I'd call crying. I lost my faith. Me who felt so close to God, I felt like, you know, I have been guided through every piece of work I've ever done.

22:44You know, I feel really blessed with that gift that I get to give. And then to, you know, feel like I don't want to give it and I don't believe there's anyone to protect me. And so, you know, I lost my faith. And every day, you know, I remember writing about that one day we just have to make it a choice. We have to choose faith even if we don't feel it or hold on to a friend who has faith that they believe in us.

23:24Whoever said good things come to those who wait never shopped Black Friday early at Lowe's. Right now, get up to 50 % off select major appliances. Plus, get free delivery, free haul-away, and free basic installation and parts when you spend$896 or more on select major appliances. Shop Black Friday early in-store and online now at Lowe's. Valid through 12-2 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See associate at lowes.com for details. Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer.

24:00With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. What was your lowest moment? Well, my lowest moment was when I got home from the hospital. Still, I didn't know that they were thinking I was going to die.

24:37You know, I thought I was just going to live and have no energy. What does that feel? That's what sickness is. Is empty. What does it describe for us? What does it feel like? I felt so lost. Like, why am I here? Why do I want to be here? What am I doing if I'm not here to serve? Because since I was a little girl, I wanted to do something good. And so it just felt like I didn't belong anymore. Did you not have physical energy also? I know what you're talking about is emotional and spiritual, but just like the, you know, not the energy to get up and put your clothes on. Not the energy to do your hair.

25:17Just no energy. None. Sometimes except to go to the bathroom. I didn't get out of bed maybe for 30, 40 days when I got home from the hospital. I mean, I could barely, I was like weak. My little legs were like little toothpicks. Just, you know, I was just like a rail, right? I'm 20 pounds heavier now, and I'm still a rail in most places. But, you know, my lowest moment was realizing that I didn't want to be her. You know, to be that dark after all I had been through and that I couldn't help myself. Were you angry with God? I was angry with God. It's like called Neil Donald Walsh. Really? Who wrote conversations with God.

26:06You were angry with God. So angry. So pissed off. Because... Like, why me? Yes. Like, this should not be happening to me. Because... It shouldn't be happening to anybody. Yeah. So literally, what I'm hearing you saying is that the cancer humbled you and literally brought you to your knees. Oh yes, worse because if I get on my knees I can't get up. Put you on your knees and kept you there. Yeah like if I go down on the floor even today I can't get up you know and I'll just start crying because it's like what do you mean I can't lift myself up. You know you don't think of those things. I never had that thought, never.

26:52How did you get through it? um i chose what was what was the piece of what was the one little thread or piece of light you were able to hold on to even when you'd lost your faith what was the i think my son he's so great last time i saw you he was just a little baby but now he's gonna go to college my son and i managed i don't know how in this last year to take him on college tours, like to do mom stuff. That was another thing. One of my goals was to be able to be really around him the last two years he was home. I didn't know that I was going to have to get knocked out with cancer. To do it. To do it, yeah.

27:36But I've had the greatest time and I think he's really loved, you know, me not saying I'll be back in a week or, you know. Have you reached the point where you can see it as a gift? Absolutely. You have reached that point? Just in the last two weeks. Really? Yeah. Wow. And I think that's what I hope to write in the Courage book. And while I was writing, I was going through that, that we've got to find that warrior inside. We have to find that strength and go after it. You have to go back to that Courage book. You have to go back to that Courage book. Don't you think so? Yes, I have 2 ,500 words I have to write on it.

28:17Yes, you have to go back to that courage. Because part of this experience for somebody who has been a warrior, such as yourself, and a spiritual warrior for other people, is to take the lessons and share them. Yes. So for somebody who hears you now, the sound of your voice, they're going through a similar situation. don't want to get out of bed, don't want to even continue, have psychologically given up the ghost for themselves, your words would be? It is a state of mind that all of us will be challenged with at some time and that there's a way out. Don't give up. Don't give up for one second.

29:02And if you do, then you just get back on and find somebody who says, you know what, I'm standing here knowing you're not going to give up on me. And to start, find those people, write it down in a journal every day, the good things about your life, not the bad, just the good things. Yeah, I call it keeping a grateful journal. I actually, yeah, kept one for years and I've started back doing it again. And it makes a difference in your day because you go through life looking for the good thing that's going to happen so you can remember it. That's what I've learned. And you could go back and read it when you're really having a down moment, right?

29:37Yes. You're like, wow, that's my life. Yeah. I actually did that recently. I went back and looked at a grateful journal. And this is when my life was so rushed toward the end of the Oprah show. And I was like, just sort of going from one thing to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, you know, that thing that happens to you. And I pulled out a journal from like 1992 and I, just a grateful journal. And I was reading about, you know, running through the woods with my dog, had a mango sorbet, had a flatbread pizza, usually food. I just, things that made me happy. And I was saying, gee, there was a time where running through the woods with my dog, taking the time to do that, allowed me to feel such pleasure and such joy.

30:20Why don't I do that for myself anymore? That's why I think keeping a grateful journal is really powerful. And doing those one things that you wrote down that you don't feel like doing but making yourself do it. That's what I've learned about courage. Tell me, how do we, who want to discover what the shadow side is, who want to discover what our shadow beliefs, what are our shadow beliefs that keep us from moving forward, do we need a teacher? Do you need somebody to help you do it? Is it possible to figure that out for yourself? it's harder than one would think to do it by yourself and it's not a fix it it's not an overnight as you know process and that's why people you know in our society are always looking for the quick fix you know it's not a quick fix it's a long-term transformation you can learn about the shadow in your mind but it's useless you must learn about the shadow through the integration because it's really the movement from the information in your head, right, to the integration in your heart.

31:30So I think to come to someone like me or somebody who is doing deep shadow work, I mean, if I could, I would take the world through the shadow process because it's so cathartic. You know, if you just allow yourself to scream, there are people who have never screamed. with this 80 year old woman she had never cursed and she had never screamed or raised her voice and we just got down on the floor with her and I mean it took us 20 minutes to get her to scream and curse and you know and she her whole face changed she looked 20 years younger really felt different because she had all her life bottled and repressed and pushed that down push that down And we never, that's what the amazing thing, the conscious mind doesn't allow us to remember these incidents that got us there, that got us stuck, that had us turn away from ourselves.

32:31And sometimes it, look, I was thinking about somebody who had just written me a letter about what she discovered in the shadow process was that somebody had, she had like a three-year-old little sister who died. And when they came back from the hospital, nobody ever talked about it. And so what came up for her was that since then, you know, she couldn't love anybody because they would just be taken away and that it was a sin to ever talk about it. Or, you know, so she couldn't have an intimate relationship because she would just shut off. And all she needed to do was grieve, you know, her little sister.

33:09She had never been able to do that, like 40, 50 years. So there's just everybody finds these incidents from their past. I know that you've done that kind of work. Yes. Where you find them and you're just like, what does that have to do with anything? Right, right. You know? Well, what we learn is that everything has something to do with everything. Yeah. There is nothing that's lost. Yeah. Every single thing that's ever happened to any of us contributes to the being that we are right now. And it's never lost. And depending on how you choose to allow that to manifest with you, whether you push it down or whether you bring it to the light, determines what your course in life is going to be, I think, for so many of us.

33:52For so many of us. And it always has a reason. Like when you get to the other side of it, you're always like, well, that makes perfect sense that I would go through that. Can you tell me what is the soul? Well, to me, the soul is the part of us that never dies. It's what we come in with. And our soul is sometimes, I don't think you can see it, but I think it's who we are at our core. And it carries all the messages and the lessons that we've learned in the past. And we'll carry all the lessons and the messages that we will carry into the future. How do you define God? I define God as an energy, a spiritual energy.

34:40It has no denomination. It has no judgments. It has an energy that when we're connected to it, we know why we're here and what we're here to do. And, you know, for me, it's my practice to connect to that energy inside and to know that I'm one with something greater, an energy of force greater than myself. Have you always considered yourself a spiritual person or was there an aha moment that quickened your journey on that path of spirituality? I think my first trauma to get through in life was my addiction. So I think it was on the bathroom floor in a treatment center that I really felt. I felt it energetically.

35:28I felt that the world loved me and that there was a beautiful force out there. And that was my first real spiritual moment. And then I committed to studying and doing whatever I had to do to connect with that feeling. Because of course, I was an addict, so I had to go and chase it and learn everything about it. And a lot of things didn't make sense to me, which... What were you addicted to at the time? At the time, I was addicted to... I used to smoke cocaine in my cigarettes and take opiates. Opiates. Opiates. Did you have a spiritual experience on drugs, off of drugs, through drugs? I think getting off of drugs was my real spiritual experience.

36:16I thought I was having many spiritual experiences while on drugs, but now I know that those probably weren't spiritual experiences. During this whole ordeal of getting yourself through cancer, was there a time where you feared dying? Yes. Right when I got out of the hospital for a couple of months, I really thought that maybe I would die because there was this underneath part of me that wanted to die because I didn't know why I should live anymore. So, you know, my son really kept me alive. Great about children. You know, I couldn't imagine doing that to him, you know, not being there. So he was my strength each day.

37:02Did you fear dying or just thought that you would? Did you fear it? No. I more fear it now than I fear it because now I'm, like, loving my life. So now I'm like, oh, I don't want to die. And I'm not going to die. That's what I tell them anytime anybody gives me any kind of negativity. Even when they wanted to give you the prognosis of how long you had to live, you said, don't want to hear it. Stop it. Don't bring that in here. That's right. I put up my hand and I said, are you God? Do you know when I'm going to die? And then I called Dr. Xavier and I'm like, am I going to die? She's like, absolutely not.

37:40And I called my ex-husband, am I going to die? He's like, no. If you don't have a doctor that inspires you, no matter what you have, you should find one that does. Because I feel like my doctor helped me stay alive. Where do you think we go when we die? What happens when we die? Hopefully we don't take up any more space in the ground. But I think our soul goes somewhere up. I don't know where it actually lives. I haven't quite found anybody who's gone up there and come back and given me an answer. What do you know for sure? What I know for sure is that we are all created with this phenomenal force inside of us that can have us withstand, like that God never gives us more than we can handle.

38:35And that everything that comes our way is coming our way so that we can grow and evolve. And if we look at it like that, if we're willing to open our hearts and see where we're shut down, where we're trying to resist life, then we have the great opportunity to step into who we always wanted to be. Thank you so much. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.

39:18Thank you for listening.

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