Super Soul Special: Anthony Ray Hinton, Part 1: Freedom After 30 Years on Death Row

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0:57Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. random hosting things I absolutely didn't need, but emotionally I did. And suddenly it went from maybe next time to yes, tonight. That's what I love. Prime's same day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real, the only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Available in select areas, terms apply. So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic, go to amazon.com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast. In celebration of Black History Month, Hyundai is proud to support the OWN Network.

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2:16I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. In 1985, 29-year-old Anthony Ray Hinton was arrested and charged with the brutal murders of two fast food restaurant workers in Birmingham, Alabama. Despite no eyewitnesses, no evidence against him, and a solid alibi, Anthony Hinton was tried by a white prosecutor, a white judge, and an all-white jury, found guilty and sentenced to death.

3:05For 30 years, Anthony Hinton suffered in isolation and darkness on death row. During that time, he was forced to bear witness as 54 men and one woman walked right by his cell down the long hallway to their execution. But not even Death Row could dim the light inside Anthony Ray Hinton. For nearly three decades, he found a way to hang on to hope, stay positive, and even inspire his fellow inmates and the prison guards. And then one fateful day, Anthony Hinton met criminal defense attorney Bryan Stevenson. Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative spent 16 years working on Mr. Hinton's case. Finally, in 2014, the United States Supreme Court unanimously overturned Anthony Ray Hinton's conviction.

3:54On a spring morning in Alabama, after 30 years on death row, Anthony Hinton walked out of the Jefferson County Jail a free man. Now, his moving, awe-inspiring memoir, The Sun Does Shine, is my latest book club selection. It is a powerful lesson on faith, forgiveness, and redemption that I believe will not only inspire, but also will wake a lot of people up to unjust circumstances that are happening every day in our country. So welcome to our podcast here. Well, thank you for having me. I bet there was a time where you never thought you would be sitting here in my office or even seeing the sun shine the way it is out here on this beautiful California day.

4:39No, I really didn't. when you've been convicted of capital murder, especially in the South, and you don't have the money to afford an attorney. Yeah. It's just, in your mind, just a matter of time. Just a matter of time. Just a matter of time. Yes, ma 'am. So you spent, I want to just tell our audience here, I've been listening to people's stories for most of my career since I was 19 years old, and this is one of the most incredible stories I've ever heard. You spent nearly 30 years on death row for crimes you did not commit. It's really just, you know, when I was reading your story, I was trying to picture myself holding on to hope, holding on, keeping the faith.

5:23I don't know if I could have done it. I just don't know if I could have done it. But you survived, and it's really an incredible story of faith and resilience and triumph. I thought about Viktor Frankl, actually, in his book that he wrote when he was in the camps in Germany, in Auschwitz, called Man's Search for Meaning. And I think you found a lot of meaning in those years. I did. The first three years, I went into this dog hole. And not realizing at the time, but the dog hole is what saved me. Saved you. I just want to tell people who aren't familiar with The Sun Does Shine, I hope you will get the book and read it.

6:06It's the reason why I've chosen it as this summer's book club selection, because I just think every person should read it. One of the reviews said, in his intense memoir, Anthony Ray Hinton recounts his three-decade nightmare, awaiting execution for crimes he didn't commit. Mr. Hinton here provides a convincing description of continued segregation and injustice in the Deep South that cages the underclass as effectively as prison walls. His depictions of prison life are wrenching. After 30 years, his dogged pursuit of justice led civil rights attorney Brian Stevenson to adopt his cause. Mr. Hinton was freed from prison in 2015 and now works as a motivational speaker.

6:48His life is one of inspiration, which he wonderfully relays here in bitingly honest prose. It's a masterful, moving read. So congratulations on getting this book done. And I love that you call it The Sun Does Shine. Yes, ma 'am. Because those were your words when you came outside for the first time after being held behind bars for 30 years. Yes, ma 'am. And everybody was expecting you to say something. Yes. You said. The sun does shine. I know we'll forget that morning that exactly the judge had ordered me to be released at 9.30. And I had told Mr. Stevenson to bring me a suit. And brought me the suit.

7:31We changed. And I kept looking at the watch. Finally at 9.30 they ushered us through the door. And it seemed as though the sun was shining on no one but me. And I looked over at Mr. Stevenson. She was shining on him as well. And I couldn't see it. And then as I walked a little further, it was just as though the sun was following me. And I got up to the podium and I said, the sun does shine. Because I had been in pure hell and darkness for all those years. And I don't think I can even put in that book or tell you today what it's like to be on death row. Yeah. For something that you know you didn't do.

8:11Yeah. And to put up with everything you have to put up. Save on tropical flavors at Whole Foods Market during the Savor the Tropics event with yellow sales signs highlighting seasonal finds throughout the store. The produce section is bursting with pineapples, mangoes, and kiwis at their juiciest. Grill up fresh seafood paired with tropical fruit marinades or grab and enjoy the spicy Hawaiian pizza, huli huli chicken, and more. Finish with a sweet slice of mango yuzu chantilly cake. Savor the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait, have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight, and then you just don't because you don't have what you need?

8:56Because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person, and honestly, Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last-minute girls' night, no planning, no groceries, nothing. And instead of spiraling, I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day. Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need, but emotionally I did. And suddenly it went from maybe next time to yes, tonight. That's what I love. Prime's same-day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real, the only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen.

9:34Same-day delivery, it's on Prime. Available in select areas, terms apply. So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic, go to Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast.

9:48Well, you know, in every story, I think people try to imagine themselves in that story or imagine themselves, you know, what would you do or have done? And I remember years ago, I was on trial in 1998 for saying something bad about a burger. And I was on trial for six weeks in Texas. And I I remember thinking every day, what if the sentencing here was not just money or a fine. I was found not guilty, by the way. But what if the sentencing was that I would have to go to jail for something that I knew I didn't do? And I thought about, for the first time in a real way, all the people who were in jail for things they didn't do and how horrible that must be.

10:33I mean, just how it just would eat you up inside to know that justice was not served, and now you're behind bars for it. So I want you to take us back, actually, to the day you were mowing your mother's lawn, and you were out there cutting the grass for your mom because you were living at home with your mom. You were, like, 29 years old at the time? Yes, yes. And would you say you were mama's boy because you sure did love your mama? I am, and I still love her. And although she's not here, she will always be in here. Yeah, in your heart. Oh, yes. There's not a day that go by, not a night that I don't take her photo and kiss and say goodnight, Mom.

11:15One would have to understand where I come from. My father didn't abandon us. He lost his mind. And so my mom had to be my father and mother. So your father was mentally ill? Yes, ma 'am. And so I cannot sit here and look you in the eye and tell you that I missed anything other than having a father. My mother was tougher than any man could ever be. And so I was somewhat afraid of her. And my mother was the type, if she said, I'm going to the store, and I mean for you to count your finger until I get back, you better be counting when she pulled back up. But it was a hot day in July. and I went inside to get some lemonade and my mom asked me was I going to revile and I said yes ma 'am and so I got this lemonade went on back outside and drunk it brought the glass back and my mother was there again and she said what time revile will start and I said seven o 'clock mama and she said well you got time to go out and cut that grass and I kind of give her that baby look but it wasn't working today for some reason.

12:21And I said, Mom, I promise you tomorrow I'll cut that grass. And my mom looked at me and she said, I'm trying my best to see how did you get your cut the grass tomorrow out of me telling you to go cut the grass. And she looked at me, boy, you better get out there and cut that grass. And out the door I go. And about 20, 25 minutes into cutting the grass, I happened to look up and there stood two white gentlemen that I didn't know. I cut the lawnmower off and I said can I help you and one of them replied I'm looking for Anthony Ray Hinton I said that would be me again how can I help you then they identified themselves as two detectives and I said okay how can I help you they said we have a warrant for your arrest and I said for what and they said we'll tell you that later but right now we want you to put your hands behind your back I complied put my hands behind my back they put the handcuff on me proceeded to put me in the escort car, but I said, at least allow me the opportunity to go in and tell my mother I'm being arrested for something.

13:23And one of the detectives said, no, we're not going to let you go back in. You can't go back in. And we argued for about two minutes, and finally the other detective said, let him go in and tell his mother. And I goes in and I just shows my mother the handcuffs. And like any good mother, she began to scream and holler, what are those handcuffs doing on my baby? and one of the detectives had taken him out while I stand here and talk to his mother. A few minutes later, he comes out. We proceeded to go to jail. And I asked the detective at least 50 times, why am I being arrested? They would not respond, would not say a word.

14:01And as they drove with the father, they asked him again, I said, detective, why am I being arrested? And he finally turned around to the woman that wasn't driving. and he said, you want to know why you've been arrested? I said, yes. He said, we're charging you with first-degree robbery, first-degree kidnapping, first-degree attempted murder. I said, oh, I ain't done none of that. And he kind of yelled at me. Let me tell you something right now. I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it, but I'm going to make sure you found guilt of it. I said, for a crime I didn't commit? He said, you must have a hearing problem.

14:35Didn't I tell you I don't care whether you did or didn't do it? He said, but you remember this if you remember nothing else. I'm going to make sure you found guilt of it. And as we drove a little farther down the road, if that wasn't, I guess, insult enough, he'd turn around, and he said, by the way, there's five things that are going to convict you. Would you like to know what they are? I said, yes. He said, number one, you're black. Number two, a white man is going to say you shot him. Whether you shot him or not, he said, believe me. I do not care. He said, number three, you're going to have a white prosecutor.

15:16Number four, you're going to have a white judge. And number five, more than likely, you're going to have an all-white jury. He said, do you know what that spell? And he repeated the word conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction. And we got to the police station. and they put him in his holding cell for about two and a half hours. And finally he came in, and I said, Detective, if you don't mind, will you tell me what date and what time this crime took place? And he goes through his phone, and he looks, and he tells me the date and the time, and I said, whew, thank you, Jesus. I said, I was at work at that particular date and that particular time, and I said, thank you, God.

16:05I said, my supervisor happened to be white. Here's his phone number, here's the address, and they take out. They stay gone for about four and a half hours, and they come back. Because you thought, my supervisor's going to clear all of this up. Yes, yes. You got the wrong man. Yes. And they goes out there, and they come back, and he said, well, I got good news and bad news. He said, the good news is we no longer going to charge you for first-degree robbery, first-degree kidnap, first-degree attempted murder. your alibi checks out. You was at work. He said, but now the bad news, the bad news is we, I don't know who we is, but we have decided that we're going to charge you with two counts of first-degree capital murder.

16:52I said, but I haven't killed anyone. He said, do you remember when I told you coming over here, I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it. He said, that whole fact for these new charges, I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it, but you remember this. I'm going to make sure you found guilty of it. This is the police officer? This is the police officer. Wow. Were you terrified? Did you realize the magnitude of the severity of what had just happened to you? Did you? I didn't because, you know. Or you're just still in disbelief. I'm in disbelief because as I talked to the detective, the detective said something profound to me that he looked at me and he said, let me tell you something.

17:41He said, I really believe you didn't do it. He said, but since y 'all is always taking up for one another. Y 'all? Y 'all. He used to work. He said, take this for your homeboy. and with tears down my eyes as a detective I don't have a homeboy in this world that I would take a rap like this for and I always been brought up Ms. Winfrey to believe that that the police wanted to get the right person but this day for some reason they just wanted a body because your mother raised you to she's one of those strong black women, southern women, believes in authority, believed if you worked hard, showed up, things would turn out all right for you.

18:33Just tell the truth, tell the truth, and everything will turn out all right. Go to the police, the police will help you, is what she believed, that the police were the people to help you. Yes. And they kept you, right? Yes. Based on what I read in the book, you never went back home. No. So they held you for a year and a half, 14 months? Yes. 14 months before you even went to trial? Absolutely. And the trial was just a fiasco? It was. Because they had already decided. Yes. From the day the judge stood up and read the charges and asked me, could I follow an attorney? And I told him no. And he pointed me on the attorney, and the attorney come up.

19:14He didn't even ask me my name. And he just said, I didn't go to law school to do pro bono work. And I looked at the attorney and I said, would it make a difference to you if I told you I was innocent? This is the guy who was assigned to defend you. Yes. And he looked at me. He said, you know, the problem with that statement is all of y 'all is always doing something. And then saying you didn't do it. There goes y 'all again. Yeah. Yeah. And I go and I sit in jail and I go to trial. I need a ballistic expert. He goes out and he get a civil engineer that was blinded in one eye. And I said to myself.

20:01So let me interrupt you here. So they go back to your mother's house and they get a gun. Yes. It's a.38 caliber pistol. Yes. That hasn't been fired in 25 years. and literally dust off that gun and claimed that the bullets they found matched the bullets in your mother's gun. Yes, ma 'am. And wasn't there somebody who had said that that gun hadn't been fired? The detective asked my mother. My neighbor was there, and she said, he asked your mama, why don't you clean this gun? Ain't nothing on this gun but dust. And she told him, she said, this gun hasn't been used in over 25 years. and they get it to the police station, clean it up, and lie.

20:46And just lie. I don't know the other word to tell you. They lie. Yeah. They actually lie. So I want people to actually get the book. I hope you do. It reads like a novel, but when you recognize that every word of it's true, it's so startling. I want you to take us to the courtroom after a year and a half has passed and you're sitting in the courtroom, and after the ballistics expert, who turns out to be blind in one eye and incompetent that your lawyer had hired, messes up so terribly on the witness stand, you knew then that you were going to be sentenced. Absolutely. The prosecution crucified him.

21:29And when he asked him, did he know how to turn on the machine, he said, no, I had to ask for help. He said, once they helped you, what did you see? He said, I didn't see anything but my fingers. He said, you never seen the bullets? He said, no, I finally seen them later on, but I seen just my fingers. Where did they get this guy who sounded like a buffoon? Off the street, I believe. But then they asked him, said, you nothing no more than a charster. You come up here, and then you go to the ballistic with a pair of pliers. Oh, so he was just a charlatan, right? Yes, yes, yes. He was just a charlatan.

22:08Yes, and I never heard of it, but back in the Western days, they used to get up there and say whatever for$25 or$50. So that's what your lawyer had found somebody to do that. And he asked him, the DA asked him, said, how much are you getting paid? He said, well, I might get$50, I may get$100, I don't know. I may not even get anything. I just kind of did the lawyer a favor. And Ms. Winford then I swallowed. You knew it, you knew. I said, they're going to find me guilty. because my case revolved around nothing but ballistics. Either they match or they don't match. No eyewitness, no fingerprint, no nothing.

22:45Just the state of Alabama was saying they match. So they have this fake guy who gets up that they paid whatever charlatan. They even called him a charlatan. Yes. They called him a charlatan. The prosecution called him a charlatan. And what gets me is how the judge, my lawyer, the prosecutor, was standing there and arguing that this man was one of the best there is. The judge qualified him as dean because he get magazines and he know more than the average human being. Well, I have to say, you know, Brian Stevenson, who wrote Just Mercy, writes about your story. It's one of the first stories in his book.

23:30And Brian Stevenson, who's dedicated his life to trying to bring justice to people who have been unfairly convicted and left to die, is how I actually came to hear your story. I was visiting, doing a story on the lynching museum down there. And I saw your book on his desk. Thank God. Saw your book on his desk. So, can you take us to the day you heard that the jury comes back in and they say guilty. Can you take us to that moment? Well, when they said guilty, I really lost sight for a few seconds. My niece was behind me and I turned back to say something to her and I didn't recognize who she was.

24:15And when they said guilty, I was just totally in shock. I wanted to know what did they find me guilty on. And to me, it wasn't nothing but a high-class lynching. And I often tell people, two white men came and arrested me. Three white men prosecuted me. A white judge sentenced me. And a white jury found me guilty. Nothing but a lynching. And everything that I ever believed in, Take your time.

25:02Everything that I believed in and was taught as a child left me. I just somehow wanted to protect my mom. I didn't quite know whether she understood that I had been found guilty of capital murder and what that meant. Because in Alabama, you can get found guilty and they have what they call a sentencing date later, about a week or two weeks later. And I didn't know, did you fully understand that? More than likely, this prosecutor was seeking the death penalty. And I kept saying, I need somehow to protect my mother. I kept asking Lester to somehow shield her from the mission. Lester, your best friend, who we'll talk about later.

25:52Yes. I think I have the best friend in the world. No. Until I read about your best friend. I have to say. There was something you said around page 65, but how could I be the same? I wondered who would I be when this was all over. Everything good was being taken away, one small chunk at a time. Belief, family, truth, faith, justice. I wondered who I would be when this was all over. How could I be the same person? would there be anything left after this trial? And what if they actually found me guilty? What then? Nobody believed me, and some days it felt like the whole world, except for Lester and my mom, was conspiring against me.

26:33Yes. You know, I had taken a polygraph test and passed. And the polygraph test was not admitted? Not admissible. And the man who gave the polygraph test said, this guy is innocent, this guy. A retired FBI agent. I never forget the lieutenant asked him, how did he do? He said, if I could go by this polygraph test, I would take him out of this jail tonight. And she said, he just don't act like a killer. And she said, I've been here for 28 years. She said, he mind his own business and everything. So after trying to prove my innocence, I begged for true serum. I begged for hypnosis. I begged for anything that they was willing to give me.

27:16to prove my innocence. And when I passed the polygraph test and the prosecution reneged on his words saying we could use it if I passed and if I failed it, he could use it. It just sucked every ounce of energy, every ounce of belief, everything out of me. If you've been taught that justice prevailed and the truth will come to light, I didn't see being convicted. I thought it meant then in the courtroom. I didn't know that I was going to spend 30 years later before the truth come out. I didn't have that. It's unbelievable. It's unfathomable. And so there were some dark nights of the soul. You went immediately onto death row.

28:01Yes. And you stopped speaking, literally. Three years. You did not speak. Did not speak. Every time an officer would say, what is your name? What is your social security number? What is this? I just wrote it down and gave it to him. and for three years they thought I couldn't talk. It was as though God had taken my vocal cord and I couldn't talk. Ms. Winfrey, when I tell you, I didn't even realize that I could have so much anger inside of me because of what had been taken from me. Yeah. And I went in this hell hole and I just knew. You had dreams for many nights killing McGregor? Yes, ma 'am. Yes, ma 'am.

28:46Was he the prosecutor or the judge? He was the judge. He was the prosecutor. And he was so racist. He wrote a book, and he had the idea that Hitler was right. He'd think the words would be pummeled in white. And all I wanted to do, I didn't want to come back and escape to be on the run. I wanted to choke the life out of him. And I wanted my face to be the last face that he saw. So you were consumed with that rage and anger for a long time. Yes, ma 'am. And once I seen that I couldn't escape, four years later, I heard a grown man laugh for the first time. And that's who I've always been. I think laughter is good for the soul.

29:34And when I heard that laughter, it brought me up. But it wasn't the laughing at first. So three years where literally you go outside. I've been on death row and I've seen. I mean, when you think five by seven cell, and even when you go outside, you're going outside in a cage. Yes. Yeah. And I could lay in my bed and touch the floor of the wall, which my home is long, but five by seven is not big at all. Yeah. And when you got the bed mounted to the wall and the toilet mounted to the wall, you have no room to do anything. And that's what I lived in for 30 years. And it's pure solitary confinement.

30:23You can't even see the other guys on the road. So you don't have other human touching, you know. No. Yeah. So for three years, you went into that. What did you tell yourself? You know what, Mr. Hinton? I was trying to figure out what does time become? Are you counting the days? Is there like calendar time in your head? Do Tuesdays or Wednesdays or Thursdays or Fridays matter? If it's May or if it's December, does it matter? No. Time is nothing like it once were. In fact, time don't even exist. Because you're in a place where when their time is at an end, they're going to come get you. Yeah. And they're going to scrap you down in the chair or the garden.

31:08And as it turns out, your cell was just 30 feet from the death chamber. Yes. Where men would have to take the walk down your hallway. Yes. With, what, eight other cells. Eight. Eight other cells. Yes. Top and bottom. And walk to the death chamber. And when they were killed, you could smell their flesh burning. And in your time there, you witnessed. 54. 54. 54. Me and one woman. And one woman. Being executed. Executed. And of all the 54, I asked the guard, I said, Officer, is there anything you can give me so I won't have to smell the flesh burning? Their flesh burning. Flesh burning. And that officer looked at me, and he said, No, there's nothing I can give you.

32:01and if there's a consolation to it, he said, you'll get used to it. And one day, somebody will smell your flesh burning. And it was at that moment, that very moment, that I escaped up here. I had to. And I often tell people, I kind of understand why, about loving me and took their own life. if you can't escape up here... In your head. It's over. Yeah, you can't survive. No. Yeah, if you're just dealing with that every day, the reality of being in this 5x7. So... Save on tropical flavors at Whole Foods Market during the Savor the Tropics event, with yellow sales signs highlighting seasonal finds throughout the store.

32:55The produce section is bursting with pineapples, mangoes, and kiwis at their juiciest. Grill up fresh seafood paired with tropical fruit marinades or grab and enjoy the spicy Hawaiian pizza, huli huli chicken and more. Finish with a sweet slice of mango yuzu chantilly cake. Savor the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait, have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight and then you just don't because you don't have what you need because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person and honestly Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy.

33:32Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last minute girls night. No planning, no groceries, nothing. And instead of spiraling I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day. Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need but emotionally I did. And suddenly it went from maybe next time to yes tonight. That's what I love. Prime same day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real, the only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Available in select areas, terms apply.

34:07So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic, go to amazon.com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast.

34:17so what broke it for you uh it was someone crying in the night it was a man who had lost his mother yeah and he was wailing wailing wailing wailing and this is a man that i had lived by for three years and never asked him his name where he was from or anything i wasn't there to really to get to know anybody i wasn't there to make friends all i knew i was there for something i didn't do And when I heard this man crying, at an early age, my mom had taught me compassion. She said no matter what one does in life, they still deserve compassion. And it was that compassion that I hollered through this brick wall, and I got up to the front of the door, and I yelled out with my voice.

35:07And I said, hey, is something wrong over there? It took him a while to reply. And he finally said, I just got worried my mother passed. And I told him that I was sorry to hear that other men was listening. They holler, hey, I'm sorry as well. And I told him a corny joke, and we kind of laughed just a little bit to try to break it. And I laid back down, and the next morning, I realized my voice was back as well as my sense of humor. And I ain't looked back since. I used disappear to go wherever I wanted to go and made as many people I could laugh. And you say in The Sun Does Shine, you say, I wondered why it is that the cries of another human being, whether it's a baby or a woman in grief or a man in pain, can touch us in ways we don't expect.

35:58I wasn't expecting to have my heart break that night. I wasn't expecting to end three years of silence. It was a revelation to realize that I wasn't the only man on death row. I was born with the same gift from God we are all born with, the impulse to reach out and lessen the suffering of another human being. It was a gift, and we each had a choice whether to use this gift or not. What I knew, when you're hanging at the end of your rope, does it really matter what color the hand is that reaches up to help you? What I knew was that he loved his mother just like I love my mother, and I could understand his pain.

36:34Absolutely. And the fact that mine was still alive made me appreciate her more and made me understand his loss even more. And so somebody laughed. You told a joke. Yes. Somebody laughed. You heard that laughter and something about that laughter It clicked. Cracked you open, yeah. Oh, yes. I've always been warned that I love humor. I think that, as I said before, laughter's good for the soul and I just try to make humor out of everything. Even the worst of the worst, I try to find something humor in it. So you had this, first of all, I think one of the things that saved you was your vivid imagination.

37:14Yes. Because when that officer said that to you about one day they will be smelling your own flesh, you learned then to go away in your own imagination. And you went to lots of places to see the Queen of England in your head. Yes. And I often tell people, please don't ask me why a 29-year-old black male wanted to go see Queen Elizabeth. But I did. But at the end of the day, I realized something. She was in jail just as I was. Ah. She was in a 758-room jail. Jail. And you were in a 5x7. I was in a 5x7. them. So we had something in common. And I just wanted to escape and see how she was doing. That is so...

38:06Okay, I won't say crazy, but that sounds crazy to me. Well, here's the thing. When people ask me, I say, think about it. I've had the privilege to walk down England and enjoy the sights, the building, everything England have to offer. She can't enjoy it the way I enjoy it. For since you've been out? Yes. I can't go in stores. I can go in stores and shop. They have to shut the stores down. But you went in your imagination first. But in my imagination, I went to see her. And because she was in prison, just as I was in prison. And I wanted to give her some type of consolation that it's okay. You're okay.

38:48You're going to be okay. And once I visit her and I realized that I could travel in my mind and there was nothing the warden or anyone in the state of Alabama could do about it. I just kept traveling. Yes. And I traveled, and I ended up, you know, as to reading the book, I married a Halle Berry in my mind for 15 years. You were married to Halle Berry? Yes, for 15 long, beautiful years. Halle Berry was one of the specials. If there's a thing that's perfect, she didn't say nothing to me yesterday and okayed there. And I said, well, I love the fact that she didn't spend any money. I love that. And so what I did was I didn't ever use my mind for garbage.

39:34In the 15 years that I was married to Halle Berry, not one time did I think of her as sexual or any way. I used her to cope through some lonely days. And that's just sitting there talking to her. And I had seen a few of her movies, and I knew when she was married to her, David Justin for the Yankees, and the Yankees have always been my favorite team. And I just sit there, and she had been through some rough time. And when I married her, 15 years was the best 15 years of her life, as well as mine. And so I just used my mind, kept using my mind. And then you let her go for Sandra Bullock. I did.

40:12When I seen Sandra Bullock driving this bus, I'm thinking in my mind. That was on speed, right? On speed, yes. If this woman can drive a bus like this, imagine what she could do with a real getaway car. Yeah. And I'm not thinking this is where I'm going to be the rest of my life. Now I'm back and I'm thinking about getting out of here. And I'm thinking if I have to get out of here, somehow escape, Sandy Bullock could drive the getaway car. These are the games you played with yourself in your mind to get through the days. Oh, yes. To get through the days. Because obviously if you saw her in Speed, there's TV on Death Row.

40:49Now it was, but they had showed us the movie when I first seen it, Speed. Yeah. And then after that, they started allowing us to purchase a TV. Uh-huh. But in the first years, did you have a TV? No. Did you have nothing? No. You're just in a room all day long with nothing. With nothing but a Bible. A Bible. And when I got there, I took that Bible and threw it up on the bed. Yeah. You didn't touch the Bible for three years. Three years. Yeah. Our conversation will continue in the next episode. You can listen by downloading part two. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.

41:27You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

41:48Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait, have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight, and then you just don't because you don't have what you need? Because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person, and honestly, Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last-minute girls' night, no planning, no groceries, nothing. And instead of spiraling, I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day. Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need, but emotionally I did.

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