Super Soul Special: Jay Williams: You Can Survive Your Worst Mistake

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1:31I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Former NBA player Jay Williams grew up in Plainville, New Jersey. He was the only son of parents, David, who worked for American Express, and Althea, an elementary school principal. Jay led Duke to an NCAA championship in 2001 and was hailed as one of the most electrifying college basketball players in Duke University history, poised to become one of the biggest superstars in the NBA.

2:21Jay says his rookie season with the Chicago Bulls was one of the most difficult years of his life. He struggled both on and off the court to find his confidence and says he began to lose himself to everything he believed it meant to be an NBA star. At the end of that season, Jay ignored the part of his bull's contract that prohibited him from riding motorcycles and instead bought one. Today, Jay opens up about the motorcycle crash that destroyed his career and tested his will to live. His more than 10-year battle to reclaim his destiny. And it's a big lesson, Super Soulers, on how our worst mistakes can be our best teachers.

3:04So I was living in Chicago when you crashed your motorcycle. I often wondered, what were you thinking before you got on that bike? I think that's a great question because I wasn't thinking at all. I think I was just freely living in that moment. And I struggled with a lot. I felt I had a lot of pressure on me to be this particular saver for a franchise. And so there was that aspect. Because you come in, you have Michael Jordan's locker. Exactly. Exactly. Which I chose to have, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to prove that I was running my own life. And, you know, it's interesting. You have a lot of people that control what you do.

3:44And that's what happened to me in college. You know, everything was regimented. I knew that every day I was going to wake up at 6 a.m. and I was going to practice for 2 and 1⁄2 hours. Yeah. Go to class and then go to school and then training meal. And then all of a sudden you come to the NBA and somebody's like, here's a lot of money. Go. And I had no idea what I was going to do with my time. 21 years old, how much money were you making? Your contract was... I got$3.4 million with the second pick. And then I had a good endorsement with Adidas, where I got another million dollars. Yeah. That's feeling really good.

4:16Yeah. So you get on the motorcycle. Now, what's interesting to me is that you had had a vision or dream years before that something would happen. Yeah, I was 17 years old. I was about to play my first college basketball game at Madison Square Garden, and I'm from Jersey, so that's what you dream of playing, the mecca of basketball. And I couldn't go to sleep that night. I was up. I was fidgety. I was anxious. Couldn't wait to play my first game. And I finally fell asleep, and I had this dream that I was spinning, spinning nonstop, and almost to the point where it got me dizzy. And when I finally stopped spinning, I looked up, and I saw a red fire hydrant.

4:53And the crazy thing about that is that you fast forward about five years, 21 years old, and all of a sudden now I'm actually laying on the ground with my chest on the pavement as if I'm laying on my stomach, my legs on top of each other as if I'm laying on my side up on the curb staring at a red fire hydrant after I just spun around. Take me back to that moment where you're on the motorcycle. Why did you lose control of the motorcycle? I was on my bike, which I shouldn't have been on in the first place. Because you'd signed a contract that said you wouldn't ride a motorcycle. Exactly. But once again, rebellious phase of my life.

5:31I wanted to prove that I was in control of my own life. And you're not going to tell me I can't ride a motorcycle. Exactly. Exactly. The young, immature thing to do. And coming to our stop sign, the bike was in neutral. I revved the bike two times. The first two times it was totally fine. And I'm going about 25 miles an hour now as I'm cruising towards the stop sign. And I rev it the third time, and in the middle of the third rev, I just, I hear the bike go click, click. And it was a huge rev. For some reason, I wanted everybody to know it was me coming to a stop sign. I have no idea why. Now you do know why.

6:07Yeah. Ego, ego, ego, ego. All day long. All day long. Now you do know why, yeah. And before you know it, the bike pops up on me, and I go from going 25 miles an hour to going 65 miles an hour. and now I'm running a stop sign. Now there's a truck coming from my right to my left. And I'm seeing this truck coming. In order for me to not be hit by the truck, I have to speed up even more. So, you know, I pull on the throttle even more. The truck misses me. And as I'm looking at the truck out of the corner of my eye passing me by, as I turn, I run smack into a utility pole going around 75 miles an hour.

6:43And you're spinning? Yep, it clips off the whole left side of my body and I'm spinning in the air. And you land? Exactly. On my chest, on the pavement, legs up on the curb, as if I'm laying on my side. Wow. And, um... And there is the red fire argent. Red fire argent right there staring me in the eye. And, um, the first thing I... The first thing I yell is not that I don't want to die. You know, the first thing I yell is I threw it all away. I felt at that moment that I had thrown everything I just worked for my entire life away. Well, you had been working a long time. the hours and practice and the dream.

7:20Yeah. That's the first thought that came to your mind, not I'm glad I'm alive, not... I could even process what was happening at that particular moment. I just thought about, you know, I've been told so many times not to ride this bike. I've had a dream about this particular moment that I decided not to listen to. Yeah. And here I was in a situation that I've had all these signs telling me not to do this, and I still put myself in that position to do so. And yeah, I felt like I threw everything I worked my entire life for away. Jay's injuries were devastating. He fractured his pelvis, severed a nerve in his foot, and required more than 100 staples in his left leg.

8:03He also suffered internal bleeding and a full dislocation of his knee. Jay would eventually require 13 surgeries. Doctors weren't sure he would ever walk again. So the moment you said, I threw it all away, I threw it all away, and then wasn't it nine days later that the Bulls hired someone else? Yeah. That's got to be a moment. I was in ICU, and I remember watching the draft and watching the Bulls select Kirk Heinrich, the point guard that I competed against the year prior because he played for Kansas. and just thinking to myself, I don't really want to be here anymore. I don't even know why I'm here.

8:47You know, look what I've done to myself. And it's just, it all seems so surreal. It was like a dream that I just wanted to wake up from. But it was reality, and I couldn't change that. I know you've worked really hard to pinpoint the true spiritual cause of the crash. I heard that you had described it at one point as a power struggle that really was going on, had developed in your life, that you now believe contributed to your demise. Is that true? Yeah, because, you know, it's funny how you put things in perspective as a kid, as a 21-year-old. Your sense of reality is a little bit warped, especially for everything I was going through at that time.

9:23It was a fast-paced life. It wasn't real. It was almost a false world that I didn't really get acclimated to. But it's the world everybody dreams of. Oh, my gosh, you're 21 and you're making four-point-something million dollars a year. You can't even figure out what that is when it's happening to you. I had no sense of it at all because it was happening like that. And there was this power struggle that I had with my dad. And my dad is a very strong individual. And now, you know, reflecting back on it, he was just doing it because he loved me and he wanted to guide me in the right direction. But I took it as my dad's always telling me what to do.

10:04And my dad and my mother had some issues. It caused me to be a little bit closer to my mother and there was a little bit of dissension I had towards my father. Then my dad being the CEO of my company while I was playing, he'd tell me what to do with my money, when to do it with my money, how to invest my money, what I could spend my money on. And all of a sudden to see that moment flip to where I'm laying on my back and being told I don't know if I'm going to be able to walk again, to looking at my father being like, you were exactly right, but I didn't want to listen to you. because I wanted to do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it to prove that I was running the show.

10:40Yeah. I think that your story is such a great reminder to all of us that even our most devastating mistakes, and that was a mistake that, when you look back, could have been avoided in that moment, but even our most devastating mistakes can serve as a master teacher for us. And so in this time, in this circle of life, You've been able to take that moment, lying on the pavement, to really figure out who you really were. Because were you at that time, obviously, I would think, defined by basketball? Yeah, basketball was exactly who I was. And, you know, we talk about control, and I find it so fascinating that at that particular moment where the bike pops up on me, going 65 miles an hour, you know, I wanted to control everything.

11:25So in order to control it, I had to grab onto the bike, because I don't want to wreck my bike. And that's everything about life. When you try to hold on to something so tightly, you truly realize that you don't have any control of it at all. Yeah. Jay says he spent the last decade on a journey to both forgive himself and reclaim his purpose. He attempted a pro comeback in 2006, but it was not to be. Jay finally realized he was chasing a ghost, he says, and began to consider a new vision for himself. He is now a respected commentator with ESPN. So you now have gone through, really, a reinvention of your own identity, would you say?

12:09Yeah, because basketball was something that I thought defined me, and the power struggle was something that defined me. And everybody does it in their own way. I know a lot of people who were married who thought the marriage defined them. I know a lot of people who had jobs, they thought that job defined them. so yours is just a struggle that we get to see in the spotlight. And everybody has a form of adversity that they go through. Everybody does. And one of the things, and I had to go through therapy. I mean, I was angry at myself. I had two attempts at suicide. I tried to slip my wrist one time.

12:44I tried to overdose. Where were you in that moment? I was in a moment that I couldn't move. I had to lay on my back for months, and I had nothing but time to reflect on the mistake that I had done to myself. Because you really no longer wanted to be here. If you couldn't play basketball? Well, I think it was the fact that I did to myself. Oh, yeah. That, you know, it wasn't something that happened because of outside circumstances. It was something that... Well, you'd still be asking, why me? Why me? Right? Yeah, and I... But you actually knew why you. Well, I found that out later. Yeah. I think I found that out later.

13:20And I think I finally got to a point a year after my accident where I said, why not me? I'm built to handle this. I was supposed to be in this moment. And it was difficult for me to try to explain that to other people because other people look at my NBA career or my life in the lens of failure. You know, you didn't make it. You had this great opportunity. I'm like, whoa, whoa, I made it. I made it better than I could ever imagine making it. because that experience has made me exactly who I'm supposed to be in this moment at the age of 33. When did you come to accept the new normal? Because I think anybody who gets a difficult challenge or setback in their life has to adjust to what is the new normal.

14:05When did that happen for you, Jay? I think I finally accepted it after I didn't make it back to the NBA. I was trying to become an agent, and I was very depressed. I was living in New York City, and every single day somebody reminded me of the accident that I had done to myself. How would they remind you? Just come up to you and say, hey. Yeah, I mean, I did it today in the airport on my way here. Really? Yeah, I mean, people don't think about it, and it's okay because now I'm okay with it. But before I used to get angry about, oh, hey, why are you limping? What's wrong with your foot? Is that what you threw away your career on?

14:39Or why did you do something so dumb? Like, you had everything. Why did you throw it all away? Wow. You know, and they're trying to start a conversation with you. They're not saying it in a malicious way. It's their way of connecting to you. And for a long time, I didn't know how to handle that. And I think it all kind of came to a culmination for me is I was trying to be an agent. And I remember I went to a bar and I was drinking a lot because I was depressed and I was sad. And I honestly had a guy that came up to me and slapped me on my left leg. And he was probably a little bit drunk. And he's like, Jay Williams, is that why you messed up your whole career?

15:17And I got angry. And I said, who are you to tell me what I messed up? And I proceeded to drink a little bit more. And I walked towards my apartment. I fell down the stairs and proceeded to go into my room. And I sat there in my room and I drank by myself. And I took about three to four pills of OxyContin. And I didn't want to be here anymore. Well, take me back to what had to be, if not the darkest, as certainly one of the darkest moments, with the scissors in your room? I was in my own house, and I was laying there. I was very high on morphine, and I was praying a lot at that time. I bounced back from prayer to anger so quickly.

16:03I had no idea who I was, who I wanted to be, if I was going to be able to walk again or run again. Where are you in the time frame here? I'm about maybe two and a half months after I got down to the hospital of an accident. I just had one of these moments where I was alone. My parents did a really good job of not letting me be alone. And I actually thought it was a sign. And this is how delusional you could become when you're on a morphine tap. I saw a pair of scissors there on the side of bed and I just remember thinking to myself, if I could reach those scissors then I deserve not to be here.

16:34Because they were put there for a reason. And I sure enough I tried to reach over and I grabbed the edge of the scissors with my pinky and I pulled it in. I just remember sitting there just trying to take those blades and just pull them over my wrist. The scissor blades? Yeah. Over the tattoo that says, believe in my wrist. Looking at it saying, I don't believe in anything anymore. What do I have to believe in? And I was angry. I always try to do things right. I've been on time. I've gone to charities. It's kind of like, I can't believe you would do this to me. I don't have anything to believe in.

17:05And that moment and me drinking a lot in my apartment were the two darkest moments I had in my life. So your mom comes back into the room and she sees you with the scissors. Starts screaming at me. What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Takes the scissors out of my hands and just grabs my hand and starts to pray. And she said, promise me you're never going to hurt yourself again. You know, you've been left here for a reason. And I remember her saying that, but I remember me quickly thinking to myself, what reason is that? What reason do I have to be here? You know, to be made fun of, to be told by everybody that I'm a failure.

17:42You know, and she just prayed. How were you able then? What would you say was the seminal moment for beginning to turn it around? I don't think there was one moment. I think it was the constant support of the people who loved me that really pulled me through those dark times. Because I was lost. Basketball had defined me. My accident had defined me. And I had no idea what I wanted to do. I don't think it was until later, a couple of years later, until I started going to counseling, started to try to go to church. I put my faith into something bigger. and that was through my mother and my father helping me believe that you were left here for a purpose.

18:28Wow. So you look back on that time now. Do you have a sense of gratitude for it? I'm more thankful than I thought I would ever be. I would never be able to sit here and communicate to you my emotions if I never got hurt. And I know people might think that might be crazy. I could have a lot of money and could have a lot of success and notoriety. But I can quickly see how I was headed down a path that wasn't going to be the man I wanted to be. I was going to become somebody who cheated on his wife. I'm telling you right now, I would have. I was going to become somebody. How do you know that? Just because it was all around me.

19:14It was around me and it was socially accepted. It was accepted. It was accepted that you could kiss your wife and your kids and get on a plane and go to a different city and meet somebody there and have fun with that person and turn around and come back and be with their family again. And nobody would say anything. That's just how it's supposed to be. That is the culture. It is. I mean, it's not only the culture in basketball. It's a culture in a lot of walks of life, too, where it's accepted. And, you know, being aloof and closed off and not having a sense of what reality was because you don't know who to trust.

19:48I don't know who to trust. But isn't it interesting how everything that you're saying really is just sort of breeding a level of arrogance and feeding the ego in a way that, you know, that your ego becomes completely out of control and you're completely run by your ego. Because nobody told you no. Yeah. Nobody ever told you no. It's like, okay. And you didn't have people tell you no because people were afraid to lose you as a client. So I'm going to do this. Okay. I'm going to go on a private plane after practice and go somewhere and party and then come back and play in the game. Okay. You know, the only people who really told me no, my mother, my dad, my mom, you're not going to ride that bike.

20:33Or she's going to put gum in the exhaust of the bike to try to hide my bike in the back of the house. Wow. You know, those are the people that had a firm foundation into helping you understand what was right and what was wrong. So in spite of that big accident, what I hear you saying is there really are no accidents. Exactly. I think that was more of a gift than an accident. Really? I just think I was living a life that I don't know if it was the right life I should be living. I was doing things I shouldn't be doing. I was drinking a lot. I was partying a lot. How are you doing that? I thought you guys had a really strict, regimented life for playing ball.

21:13And then I read where you actually had gotten some people upset, where you said, you know, guys are hitting on girls from the court. Oh, yeah. And that they're doing drugs the night before? Yeah. I was shocked to hear that. I thought there was that whole everybody wants the same thing, and that is to win the game. And you know you can't win the game if you're hitting on girls and if you're having drugs the night before. Depends on what game you're talking about. Are you talking about the basketball game or are you talking about the individual game? Yeah. And for some of these guys, you know, they're in their own game.

21:41Yeah. What has been your biggest discovery about yourself in this whole process? That I am so strong. I'm strong. I'm stronger than I ever thought I was. And I'm strong not because of something internally. I'm strong because of the people that support me on a daily basis. And I found a new zest for life through them because of their support. And so when you say you have a new zest for life, did you actively start to process what the steps would be to get you to where you are now? No, I was still trying to be an agent. I was a little bit jaded by the way my agent had treated me throughout the process.

22:20You know, you go from being a guy who gets all the attention to being a guy when I was trying to come back to play. Didn't get that much attention at all. Well, you did go back and you played for, what, three weeks? I came back, I played for a short stint. A short stint? A short stint. Yeah. Enough just to prove to myself I could. Mm-hmm. What did that feel like? Sad. Sad? Very sad. Why? Because I couldn't do the things I used to do. Yeah. There was nothing more saddening to me that the one thing that I would be able to do that was my safe haven that could take me away from, you know, all the troubles that you think you have in life was playing basketball, and I didn't have that anymore.

23:00So even playing, you were playing at a deficit, and you knew it. Yeah, because basketball wasn't fun anymore. Yeah. It was something that I felt like I wanted to do because I don't know what else Jason can do besides the sport that he was told by so many people he was great at doing. Which at some point I think every athlete has to come to terms with when your body no longer can physically perform the way it did in your youth. But you didn't expect that to happen at 21, maybe 35, 40. You would have expected that to happen. You know, I look at a lot of my friends too. I mean, friends who, you know, lose a parent and they thought that, you know, I think, hey, my parents are going to be around forever.

23:37Well, that's not reality. They're eventually going to pass. And how am I going to deal with that? Or if you lose your job or if you go through a divorce, everybody has some form of adversity that they go through in their life. And, you know, are you are you cognizant enough to try to surround yourself with people who are invested in you? And I found out who was on my bus when I went through my accident. and I found out people who were invested in me. Me, the person, my foundation, who I was, not what I brought to the table because I had a lot of people that were enjoying the ride. So what happened?

24:12Did friends... Oh, disappeared. They disappeared? Disappeared. I made me one phone call, hey, how are you, checking in on you, and never heard of again. It was mind-blowing to me, and that made me sad too because I thought, wow, I have a connection with some of these people. These people are my friends. These people are people I relied upon. I looked to for support and guidance, and people were gone in a heartbeat. But I do remember reading that you looked up and there was Coach K in the room. He was... He's an unbelievable person. Duke University head basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, also known to fans worldwide as Coach K, is the winningest men's coach in NCAA history.

24:59Widely respected as a mentor, friend, and often a father figure to his players, Coach K has supported Jay Williams through every step of his recovery. The night of my accident, I'm on my back and I have a tube down my throat, all these pins inserted in my body, and people are running around frantically. There's, you know, my mom, my dad, and Coach K. Coach K was there holding my hand. And before I could even say I'm never going to be able to walk again, yet alone maybe play again, he handed me a pendant that I still have to this day, and he said, you give this back to me when you play again. You give this back to me when you play again because you are going to play again.

25:38Now, the funny thing about that is that at that time, I thought playing again meant basketball. But I was going to be playing in a bigger game than basketball could ever be. I'm playing in a game of life, and I got a second chance. And we still talk about that's what that statement meant. Do you think it took a motorcycle crash for you to see who you really are? Yes. Do you think it took a motorcycle crash for other people to see you for who you really are? I think people finally now are starting to see who I am because I've recently found out who Jason is. Mm-hmm. And I think that was the most challenging step for me is that I had to not control it and kind of let God take his path.

26:21I understand it took you years to even let people see the scar, right? Yeah. I mean, I got a scar that goes literally from here all the way up to here on my thigh. And I got a fasciotomy, so I have, you know, five slits. I have one here, one here, one here, one here, and one right here where they had to release the pressure. And I have a slit on the side of my foot and on the top of my foot that are pretty long. So you get reminded every day. And I still, I mean, I can't walk properly. I have drop foot, so there's always going to be some kind of a limp I'm going to have. And the difficult thing was that I was, the stare that I was used to having was, I think you can relate to this, is if you were to walk through the airport, somebody, that's Oprah.

27:05Yeah. You know, or somebody, you know, I was in Chicago, that's Jay Williams, he plays for the Bulls. And how that look quickly went from that look to, oh my God, poor kid. That's, that's the kid who got in an accident. And I didn't know how to handle that look. From people's adoration to people's perceived pity. Yeah. Yeah. And at 21, I made an idiotic mistake that instead of being defined now at 33, like, oh, he's a 10-year all-star, people still say to me, he's an analyst now, but he's a guy that threw away his career. Or what could have Jay been if he didn't get hurt? You know, and now it's funny because now I have a better sense of understanding about who I am and what I stand for.

27:47So when people come up to me and say, I'm so sorry, I'm like, you have nothing to be sorry about. I have everything to be thankful for. You could have been sorry if I was not here, if I had passed away. But I am here, and I am making the best out of this life. I have a second chance. I understand that despite the crash, that you don't feel that your destiny has changed. No, I still feel like my destiny is going to be great. It's just a different vehicle. I thought that vehicle was basketball. and now I think that vehicle is doing television. Yeah, I read where Coach K said Jason Williams, the basketball player, died.

28:23And I love what you were saying. For many years, you were still chasing the ghost of that. Mm-hmm. I was chasing something that everybody else wanted me to be because I never took time to realize who Jason really was. Yeah. So I think the question for everybody listening or watching is what ghosts are you still chasing? because as long as you're chasing the ghosts of the past, you can never fully really live in and absorb the present moment or do whatever it is you're supposed to do. I don't think I'm chasing any ghosts right now. I don't think I'm chasing anybody. I think I'm in my own race. And I think that's the most rewarding feeling I've ever had in my life because for a long time, all I did was relive my past mistakes.

29:11and you know what's interesting is that I held on to a lot of dissension to my dad for a long time because of the mistakes he made in his past and I was finally able to forgive my father for the mistakes he made because I learned how to forgive myself and I didn't know if I was ever going to be able to forgive myself and I finally have and it's gratifying to wake up and to smile and to watch a sport that I still love and be able to talk about it and then not be bothersome to me. Yeah. And to put that energy into better things. I would think that would be really hard that you can forgive yourself, but then it's like, I don't want to watch basketball.

29:49I don't want to see any basketball. But not only that, now, now you're in the business of analyzing it. Exactly. And I, and I thrive off it. I, I, I love it. And I, and can you do that and not have a longing for it? I mean, like in the beginning, could you do it, talk about it, be present with it and not think, God, I wish that was me. No way. Not in the beginning. Not in the beginning. No. I mean, I actually worked for ESPN for two years, and then I quit because I couldn't do it. Yeah. And I would constantly reevaluate. This is, if I was 24, this is where I would be on my career. Then I would be making this much by now.

30:22Exactly. Yeah. I was always trying to justify it. That's what you were doing. That's chasing the ghost. Exactly. And now when I watch the game and kids say, hey, you were, I was like, yeah, I was back then. But this is who I am now. Wow. great. Yeah. I love that. And so anybody who's going through their own setback, their own challenge, their own difficulty, their own crash, what is your best advice to them? I was lucky enough to form a committee for every successful business. They have a board, right? A board of advisors. And my mother was on my board. My dad was on my board. My girlfriend at the time was on my board.

31:02Coach K was on my board. I had some other really good people. And what I did with them is I sat down and I went through the pros and cons about what is Jason good at? What is Jason like? Never took time to actually think about what are my passions. You built another kind of team. Exactly. Exactly. It's a great way of putting it. Would you say you're now living in a space of happiness? I think I'm happier. I think I could be a lot happier when I find somebody I can share my life with and I can have a family. You know, one of the most... You are having trouble doing that? I am. Really? I am. With every...

31:44I got a list of women for you, okay? Well, you can be my ente then. How about that? Oh, my God, can I help you? Honest to goodness, I never heard a guy in your position who's having trouble finding somebody. Really? I think when I went through my accident and I shattered my pelvis, I couldn't... I didn't know if I was going to be able to have kids because I didn't know if I was going to be able to get erect ever again. And I think that, all of a sudden, that put a lot of things into perspective. I think I started to think about, will I be able to dance with my daughter one day when she gets married?

32:18Will I be able to show my son how to round first base? And this is really weird for me, for a guy to say, because I don't think it was until a couple of years ago to really have this internal shift where, okay, I know who I am now. I know what I stand for. And I feel comfortable with where I'm at. I can't wait to have a family. I cannot wait to be a dad and a loyal husband. Isn't it interesting? Didn't you also have a dream about that? I did. You did? I did. And what was the dream? It was a dream that I just, I was living on the water, and I took a tennis ball and I threw it out into the ocean.

32:56And I had a dog that went and went to go get it. And my wife was, I don't even know what my wife looked like, but she was by my side. And I had these kids that were playing around on the beach. And I just remember being in a state of peace of mind, where I was just very tranquil and I was very relaxed. And I just remember, this is what life should be. So can you have children now? Yes, I can. I can. Yes, I can. Trust me. Oh, that's great. Very, very thankful for that. And this is my path. This is my path. Happy for you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you so much for having me. That's beautiful.

33:33Thank you. Thank you so much for talking. You were wonderful. I really appreciate it. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

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