Super Soul Special: Jordan Peele: Can Film Change Our Culture?

0:00I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Please welcome Jordan.

0:30First of all, I just got to say, I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you.

0:41And the reason I am is because that was a bodacious thing. You wrote and directed and I just think to have the courage, first of all, a lot of people have a vision and an idea. But to have the courage to follow that through and then to walk into a studio meeting and say, this is the movie I want to do. Were you a little scarred? I mean, there were years put into conceiving the movie. But I didn't necessarily ever realize that it would actually ever get made. So at the point when I pitched it and I said, let's make this movie, yeah, it was kind of like a uh-oh. Uh-oh. Now we're in. We're in. Let's do it.

1:28So when you say it was years in conceiving it, I love this. I love the way writers' minds work. Did you get little pieces of it and then write that down and then other pieces of it and write that down? Yeah, it was kind of like that. It was a hobby for me. It was this idea of designing my favorite movie that I'd never seen before. Yes, that is so interesting because I remember interviewing Toni Morrison years ago and she said that she started writing because there wasn't a novel that she felt really spoke to the African-American experience in a way that she wanted to read. So she started writing the novels that she wanted to read.

2:08Right. Yeah. I was the first audience for this film. Wow. And it really was about getting to go home at the end of a day. You know, some of this time I was working on Key and Peele. Yeah. And getting to go home and watching my favorite movie in my mind. And so that was, you know, many years. Were you a friend of the horror genre before? Yeah. Yeah. I just love it. And I think I love it so much because it is a way to address our fears. And I love the theatrical experience of it as well because... I'm the opposite. I don't. I don't want to be scared. Well, yeah. Most of us don't. I mean, it's such an unpleasant emotion...

2:53Yes! ...that it tends to get suppressed. But you like it. Well, I like... Here's the thing. It's the fact that we don't deal with our fears because it's so unpleasant. Yeah. Doesn't mean that they're gone. Doesn't mean they're gone. And then when those fears come back, you know, when you hold something down, it explodes in. In a different direction, actually. So I feel like horror movies and the experience of going to a theater and sitting with, you know, a family that is the audience. and going on these rides together is kind of the safest place to experience our fears. And I feel like we kind of make personal progress by not turning our backs on our own fear.

3:36Okay, I get that. So you made this movie. You got the money together. I read that it was like$4.5 million or let's say$5 million. Let's just say$5. Let's just say$5 million. You get the$5 million. And, you know, that's a significant amount to have to get people to support you on. But then the box office keeps growing and growing and growing. Please tell me you got a nice back end that you're gonna get that money, right? Yeah, sure. Sure. What's back end?

4:08Because everybody keeps saying, oh my God. So here's the thing. You had no idea at the time that it was going to be explosive in terms of a cultural phenomenon. This is the moment I was not prepared for.

4:26This is it. Thank you. That's so nice of you. I did know something big was going to happen. I thought there was a chance I'd get run out of the country. But I did know that certainly the black audience had been asking for this movie. Yeah. And been waiting for this movie. So I knew that... Those of you who are white, you should go and see it with a black audience. It's true. Because Gail said she had seen it. like at a screening or something, and then she went with a black audience and it's a completely different experience. Yeah. They're like, kill the bitch right now. Kill the bitch.

5:14That's true. My favorite line overheard, for those of you who've seen it, is the dude just went, oh, this bitch out here drinking milk.

5:28Which I understand also means something, right? The drinking of the milk and the eating of the cereal separately. Yeah, there's a sort of aesthetic play of the Fruit Loops being this colorful bowl separate from the glass of milk. I would not have gotten that had Gail not explained that to me. I mean, there are some things I probably would have missed had I not had having some. You know, I think one of the reasons this movie found such a so much success is because it's a fun movie to watch with somebody who hasn't seen it. Yes. Because you just can kind of be like. Mm-hmm. Which I watched with Gail, who was doing that.

6:04You're just looking at you. Important part coming up right here. No, Gail. Gail. Important part coming up right here. Don't miss this. That's great. So all of this talk about it and now Oscar nominations. Where were you when the nominations were being read? I was at my house. Yes. You know, I live in Los Feliz, California, in Los Angeles. And I... There's one person from Los Angeles in the house. Thank you. I was being kind to myself. Yeah. Didn't wake up and, you know, didn't set the alarm to... But you got to get up at 5.30 in the morning if you were to play. Yes. And it wasn't the time. It was the emotional distress of watching.

6:46Yeah, okay. So there had always been so much talk about it. And I have to say, honestly, I was just hoping for you. I really was just hoping for you. You're the one I really wanted this year. And so I was satisfied. I was happy with the first nomination. I was happy with the first one, which was screenplay. Yeah. Yeah, because everything begins with the words. And I was like, yes! Good. So what did you do when you first heard that? I woke up like five minutes after it was all done. So I got it all at the same time, Yeah. Which was very strategic, because I didn't want to, you know, torture myself by like waiting on the thing.

7:22I very quickly started crying. Really? Oh. OK, so because you all know he got best screenplay, best director, best picture. Best picture.

7:41The first African-American to be honored with the trifecta there. Yes. So, screenplay comes up. You're happy? I'm happy. When I found out that Daniel Kaluuya, the lead in the film, got nominated. Yes, I know. That's when I was, you know, tears started streaming down my face. Because you were crying for him. For him. Yeah. It's such a conflicting process, sort of this awards thing, as you know, where it's hard to be celebrated. It's hard to celebrate your own work when you feel like you need to do more work. And, you know, I should be writing now. Well, you also put yourself in this position of, well, just being able to do the work is such a gift, you know, to be able to have that expression for yourself.

8:30But then to have other people recognize, not just through the box office, which is the best recognition possible when you all go to see it, but to other people to recognize that there's something else here, that there are layers of goodness here. There's layers of artistic expression here in the writing, in the directing, and also overall as best picture. It's remarkable. And the moments after I realized this was really happening, I had this overwhelming sense of that this thing is bigger than me, and this is bigger than this work. and I, you know, when I was maybe 12 years old or something, so Whoopi Goldberg won...

9:17For Ghost. For Ghost, Best Supporting Actress. And I remember watching that at home. Yeah. Fantastic performance. And feeling, for many reasons, you know, going into it, feeling like she was kind of the underdog, was a comedic role. And I remember she got on stage accepting her award and said, you know, something to the effect of, for everybody out there who thinks you can't do it or doubts yourself or, you know, I don't know if she said it or this is what I got or looks like me and feels like there are walls and ceilings. So she was speaking to you. She was speaking to me. She said, you can do it.

9:53Yeah. You can do it. And I internalized that. And when the news came that I was nominated, I immediately thought of that. Of Whoopi? Of Whoopi. In that moment. In that moment. and I thought of, wow, this is now about all the people out there who this is sending that same message to. You can do it. You can do it. You can do it. If you put enough love towards something. Yeah, I believe that. It will work. Yeah. And, you know, brains help too. Yeah. But it's, yeah. I think it's love and also what you just expressed that you've always appreciated the horror genre. I think you don't get to be truly successful and experience it on the level of joyousness unless it's coming from an authentic place.

10:45It's coming out of something that's really real for you. And you've said that Chris's character in Get Out actually represents the fear and anxiety that we all have sometimes when you're an outsider. When you were growing up, did you feel like an outsider? Yeah, you know, I had a really amazing support system, amazing family, a single mother who is here tonight somewhere. I don't know. Single mother! I don't know. She's, oh, there she is. Okay. Come on. So I got so much support. At the same time, I did feel like an outsider. I identified with the outsider. It's hard to know exactly why, but I think part of it is connected to racial identity.

11:31You know, I'm mixed. And there's part of the mixed experience you, especially early on, it's kind of confusing. You're trying to figure it out? And, well, the world's trying to figure you out. Yeah. You know, the world is trying to put you in a box. A box. They're literally, you know, asking you to check on the standardized test when you're six years old, what are you? White, African-American, you know, whatever. Other. So in the beginning of my school tenure, I put other down. As I grew up and as I got older in elementary school, I began to identify as African American, which was comforting to me because it's what I am.

12:11I'm a black man. And, yeah. You get applause for being a black man. I get applause for being a black man. Well, you know, it's... But the whole thing made me, you know, set me on this trajectory of exploring and examining what it means to be black in this country. So did you at some point go to your mom, your white mom, and say, Mom, I'm a black man? You know, I don't think it ever was that dramatic. She probably would have giggled at the man part. Mom, I'm a black man. I'm a black man, Mom. You know, the first movie I ever saw in a theater, very young, was a revival of Showboat. And so my father wasn't around.

13:03A good amount of my African-American experiences growing up were through cinema. So the movie Glory was very meaningful to me. The one tier. The one tier. Yeah. Which I think is connected, actually, that moment of Denzel Washington with this defiant is, I think, connected to the same reason the now iconic image of Daniel has resonated. Ah. Well now. Yeah. There's a connection. There's a connection. I think there is a sort of deficit or a lack of images in pop culture where black men are allowed to be vulnerable, where we're allowed to be afraid, where we're allowed to show fear. And that, you know, the fact that everyone latched onto that, to me, is also connected to the fact that our fears, the injustices surrounding blackness in America aren't being heard.

14:03It's being, they're being silenced by a sort of systemic failure. And what you did with this film was allowed audiences to experience rooting for the black guy, even though normally under other circumstances they might have not been rooting for the black guy who ends up doing what he does in the film. So you've allowed the conversation to be had and heard in a way that people don't have to feel threatened. Because you know in all those years of doing the Oprah show, I think we probably did three or four hundred different shows about race. And there's inevitably a moment where the white people start to feel like, oh, they're talking about us.

14:50Is this going to be okay? But I think once you have the experience of the film with humor, with the horror, with all of that. For example, I want to show the party scene, a clip of the party scene. Oh, look, it's the Greens. Gordon and Emily, this is Chris. Chris, this is Gordon and Emily Green. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Chris. Nice to meet you indeed. That's quite a grip. Thank you. You too, man. You ever play golf? Once. A few years ago. I wasn't very good. Gordon was a professional golfer for years. Oh, you kidding? Well, I can't quite swing the hips like I used to, though. But, uh, I do know Tiger.

15:29By the way, I would have voted for Obama for a third term, if I could. Best president in my lifetime, handstand. Interesting, because anybody who's grown up black in a lot of white situations, I went to, when I was in Milwaukee, I went to school, Nicolet, hello, Nicolet, and I was, did you go to? Anyway, Nicolet High School, and I was one of two black kids in the school at the time, and every time I'd get taken to somebody's home, they would always ask me, their parents would always ask me if I knew Sammy Davis Jr. And after a while, I just started saying, yeah, he's my cousin.

16:16Because I didn't want to disappoint them that I didn't know Sammy Davis Jr. And Gail, who grew up in Turkey, her father was working overseas, and she told everybody Martin Luther King. Gail King told everyone Martin Luther King was her uncle, Uncle Marty. No, Uncle Marty. Uncle Marty. He got in trouble because her father came to school one day and the teacher said, oh, we're so sorry about what's happened to your brother

16:49being jailed. He's like, you talking about my brother Alfred? No, no, no. Anyway, so everybody has been in that experience, right, that come from a real experience. Yeah, and this is, I think, part of the experience. I had never seen portrayed in film. Nope. And there was this feeling I had while, you know, coming up with this that all I know is there are horror movies that explore every real-world horror. Yeah. Except this one, you know, save for maybe Night of the Living Dead, which does it in a very allegorical way. But the fact that the modern African-American experience and our fears and our horrors and our uncomfortable interactions in the form of that expression, to me, just meant there's a missing piece of the conversation here.

17:39Yeah. And I think what happened with this scene where the microaggressions are kind of the horror and the creepy thing is, you know, black people would say, you know, look, hey, finally. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. This is, I've been, this is, that's my life story. Yeah. And the white people would say, what? Have there been different responses? Sometimes I get like, yeah, it made me wonder, have I done that? But your Barack Obama impression is really good. I'm like, you just did it. Yeah. No, but yeah, there's a little introspection going on. But I think what this, the power of story and why this movie ended up being important is because when you have an actor like Daniel, when you have a character that, a protagonist, that the audience becomes the protagonist.

18:31So this was a way for, I think, a lot of white people to experience the world through the black perspective. And white people watching the movie don't identify with the white people in the movie. You identify with Chris. Which means you've already done something really important and valuable. Yes. That was... Yeah. Yes. So, remember there was this headline in the New Yorker that said, can a film be too inflammatory for its own good? And I understand you were, in the beginning, somewhat skeptical that the studio might not actually release the film, right? Yeah, you know, every step of the way, I held this idea that there's a good chance someone's going to step in and say, nope, you can't do that.

19:19You've gone too far. For all the reasons why we haven't seen this movie before. All the little checkpoints. The racist notion that a movie targeted to an African-American audience with violence in it could incite violence. The fact that there really aren't very many white characters that aren't evil in the movie. I thought could be a reason that this wouldn't make the final release. Was there something you wanted to put in the movie, but were too hesitant about going all the way there, although you went pretty far all the way there? Well, I shot another ending. I don't know if you know this. There's another ending.

20:00I do know this. That's why I'm asking it.

20:05I have a feeling. OK. So there was, yeah, the... I asked that question to get you to say exactly what you were going to say. OK, wonderful. Well done. Well done. The original ending for the movie that we shot was that the cops show up and it's the cops and they take him. And it goes to six months later, he's in prison. His friend Rod, who's been with him the whole movie, in spirit. Yay, Rod. That is a great actor. Little Roe Howry. So believable. Can I tell Little Roe Howry that you said he's a great actor? Please tell me. Yes, please, please. Yes. Now he has to do every movie I ever asked him to do.

20:48So great. Yeah, he really is a fantastic stand-up comedian. We all know that guy. We all know that guy. Yeah. He was the person who, when he came in, it was like, that's the guy I wrote. Yeah. And you can tell. You can feel it. He is us in the movie. Yep. But the original ending, he shows up after not showing up and saving his friend. and he's trying to solve the case sort of retroactively. I'm so glad you ended it the way you did. Aren't we glad? Because we just wouldn't be able to take... That would have been too much. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, the climate that I wrote the movie in was the Obama era.

21:34And the movie was meant to address this post-racial lie, this idea that we're past racism. And so I wanted the ending to be a dose of sobering reality as to what would happen at the end of this movie. By the time the movie was ready to go and I had that ending shot, there had been more conversation about race. There had been, you know, Black Lives Matter was bringing attention to racial injustice. Trump was starting to roll. And so it really felt like people needed a hero and needed for me to help fulfill the escapism of the movie as well. Do you feel, though, it's so interesting because I remember reading this article as I was ending my show, and it was an article in Vanity Fair about Michael Jackson, and his friends were commenting, saying he did Thriller and then spent the rest of his life chasing Thriller.

22:35and even though he sold 20 million albums from B.A.T.T. or 40 million, whatever the number was, he was comparing everything in his life still to the end, to thriller. So how do you now avoid the trap of your first film, first directing, first written, becomes this phenomenon? Now that you mention it, I don't know. I don't. Yeah. You know, I will continue to make the movies that I want to see first. If I want to see it, I have to have trust that other people will. And if they don't, I have to accept that that's what it is. Yeah. But for me, the biggest reward of all of this for me, besides this right here, has always been the fact that I get to make another movie.

23:32So I don't want to let that become an unpleasant experience because this one was so successful. Yeah, so you don't feel the pressure at all? No, I don't feel it to extreme pressure. Because I think that what you just said is the value of why we're having these conversations. You do the work that you want to see. And if it's coming out of a true space for you, and that's first and foremost, and then if other people relate to it, that's fine. if they don't. Did you hear from President Obama? Did you hear from Mr. Obama? President Obama. President Obama. Did you hear from President Obama? Did you hear from President Obama?

24:14You know... Did he see it? I don't know. So, Malia was in the screening when we screened it at Sundance. I haven't heard from Obama. You know, I imagine he would say, you know, I would have voted for me a third term, too.

24:33If I could. But I would love to. I did get to meet him because of Key and Peele. Yes. And Keegan, as Luther, got to accompany him at the White House Correspondence. At the White House Correspondence. That was a moment. But man, I want to hear what Obama has to say. About this. Can you make it happen? I will ask him. Yes. I will do that. Yes. Yes. I won't tell him to call you. The one person. I won't tell you. I think there are many people who could, but I will tell them to call you. Thank you. Who do you? I actually will do that. I actually will do that. I heard that you put your dreams of directing on hold many years ago because there simply weren't enough opportunities, actually, for African-American directors and that you understood that it wasn't your time yet, right?

25:27Yeah, I don't think I consciously was grappling with it that way at the time. Yeah. But in retrospect, you know, I wanted to be a director so bad. 12, 13, this is all I wanted. Like I said, I had that moment with Whoopi, where I felt, OK, listen to that. And yet I moved away from my dream. I consciously made a decision. I think part of it was just good old fashioned fear of failure. And also, you were so successful. Well, and, you know, the acting route was this sort of immediate response from the audience, and I felt like I was doing it well. But I do think a part of it was I internalized the sort of lack of inclusion in the director space and felt like it's hard for any director to get to make a movie.

26:17And for a black director to convince people to give you money to make a movie, that's extra hard. And then get nominated. Get nominated. Yeah. What an Oscar? Are you surprised at the ability of film, in particular, as an art form, to affect and impact our culture? It's the most effective form for me, personally. Can it change people's minds? Absolutely. It's a piece of art that's made with a huge collaboration of artists. It is a collective experience. I think the theater experience is a collective experience. Bunch of strangers come into a room, sit down, and leave with this common experience.

26:59Right. And I think it builds empathy. Any film is a journey through someone else's eyes and feeling the emotion of that character. So, yeah, I think there's a reason story is the most powerful weapon for change. I mean, I hesitate to call it a weapon, but I do think of story as a weapon against the violence, against the bigotry, against hatred, against the, you know, policies. And it goes back to the Bible. Yeah, and it's so powerful because it allows people through the story to have connection. Yes. And connection brings empathy, and that's how we get to see that we're all more alike than different.

27:40Okay, on the night of the Oscars, will you be able to take it all in? I don't know. I don't know. It's hard because you, as you know, it's like you're kind of preparing what to say, but you're also trying to like... Acting like you're not. Acting like you're not. But you want to be prepared so you don't get up there and just... But I'm going to make the decision to enjoy myself. Have you been able to enjoy it thus far? Have you been able to take it in? Have you been able to receive how the audience, all of them, how the audiences have received you and this film? Have you been able to receive it?

28:18It's easier sometimes than it is others. Mm-hmm. Because there's a bit of attention that almost feels unnatural. Do you know anything about that? A little bit. Part of it feels unnatural. Part of it makes you grapple with this idea of, like, okay, don't get too, don't watch your own jump shot here. Don't drink your own Kool-Aid. And so it's hard when there's this. Well, let me just say something to you because I've been through a little bit of this. And I would say the fact that you are at a space in your own heart where you can say to your ego, don't believe your own jump shot, means you're already there.

29:00Just to be able to ask the question means you're grounded enough to know. Thank you. You're doing all right. Thank you. You're doing all right. And I just wish you the very best. We're all gonna be rooting for Get Out!

29:18Thank you so much for this time in the conversation. Amazing. You're there. I love you. You're already there. Love you back, thank you. You're already there. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.