Super Soul Special: Reese Witherspoon and Mindy Kaling: Brave New Worlds

0:00I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. So I'm so excited that today I'm doing a special conversation with two beautiful, innovative, powerful women who I had the privilege of co-starring with in A Wrinkle in Time, Reese Witherspoon and Mindy Kalen. Hi, Oprah. Thank you for having us. Oh, can you believe it? We get to sit and talk? No, it's so exciting. It's our favorite thing to do.

0:50It's our favorite thing to do. And not in harnesses and wigs. And not in harnesses and wigs. This is going to be fun because I wish we had been recording. Can you imagine if we were recording a podcast in our trailer? All of those mornings. It would be very bad for all of us. During the many hours we spent in the makeup trailer. Particularly for me. Particularly for me. No, no, no. A lot of wisdom in that trailer. I think so too. Why do you think though, that the spirit and energy of what's now coming to the big screen and a wrinkle in time, the essence of that book, why do you think that has captured imaginations of children and now adults for decades?

1:31Why? It's absolutely, well, I mean, It's such a book about what is possible and hope and positivity and about good versus evil. And I think there have been many moments in time that it would be completely appropriate, but it seems so apropos right now to be talking about what do we cultivate in each other and how do we find our best selves and become warriors for the good in the world. Yeah. I think the fact that the lead isn't very unconventional lead. a fatherless girl who's on search for her father. I think at the time the book came out, that was a very unusual choice for a lead of a children's book or a book for young adults.

2:11Yes. And I think you can see yourself in that character. It's nice. What did it mean to you all to be a part of this? Did it not feel, I will tell you, for me it felt sort of like we were part of a trailblazing, pioneering kind of adventure. The fact that Ava was at the center of directing the first$100 billion film by an African-American woman. Did we not feel like we're trailblazers? For sure. And having Storm Reid be this little girl in the middle of a big Disney movie. I've been in movies for a long time and I've never seen a little girl of color be in the center of a giant, giant movie. And I think about all the little girls out there going, oh, I can be in my own fantastic adventure?

3:00I think about how her life is about to change. And she's so deserving of it. She's such a sweet soul. So kind. And smart. And grounded, yeah. Grounded and hardworking. But you think, I got emotional every time I thought about the little girls who don't see themselves, just to your point. Yes. And just the way that, you know, to Ava, to look at the things she had done before that, 13th, Selma, her other movies before that, but to think that she took on the science fiction, the science fiction book that was incredibly popular, you know, and had maintained its popularity, but decided to take that and then cast it in a very unconventional way.

3:39And understood it so much. We'd be like, where are we now? What planet are we on? And she'd be like, you're on Inkshell, you're in the, yeah. Yeah. And even I look at the cast and you know it's with Chris and Gugu and everyone and I had never seen a cast like that in a in a movie a science fiction movie in a Disney movie and I think that that was felt very special and when everyone heard about the cast they I'm sure you heard this too everyone was so excited. Yeah. My character Mrs. Wetz is sort of an innocent she's the newbie in the group, very deferential to both of you, and she's kind of almost borderline antagonistic towards the children, which is, I'm sort of the child of the children.

4:22She's a little annoyed by the children. I'm annoyed with the children. And you are both wise, but not as mature. You have, there's a quality in your character. That's what makes your character so funny, I think. But Mindy definitely had the toughest role, because when you're having to just recite, speaking quotations. You know, some of the quotations, Ava did a pass on the script where she updated the quotations. They were more classically Western philosophers, and she updated it, so it was, I was quoting Jay-Z and Justin Bieber, in addition to Rumi, and so that was, that made the character more fun.

4:56But it was challenging. Well, I love being the wisest one. Yes. One of the wisest women of the millennia. Yes, your voice changes when you're the wisest woman on Earth. Yes, it does. It becomes lower and more gravitas. Whenever I'm saying it, it's just like in the old days when I was used to anchor the news, suddenly the red light would come on and I go into my anchorwoman voice. So whenever I see Mrs. Witch, oh, she must speak in lower tones because wise people never have to raise their voices. I think people are going to love it. I am hoping that people resonate with the message of light that it brings because I think the line where we're all standing in, where we're all harnessed, and she says the darkness is spreading so fast these days.

5:41Oh my gosh, yeah, it was powerful, that speech. The only thing faster than light is darkness. I think we are actually in those times, and I think it's so interesting that Madeleine Linkle knew years ago that that was appropriate and that it also fits the age that we're living in now. But the message of the film is that every one of us has the power to be a carrier of the light. For sure. My friend was just saying as we were shooting pictures, wow, look at those. Those are the new superheroes. Can you believe it? No, it's crazy. I know. And it takes Ava to make us be these supernatural warriors that are, I mean, the costumes are incredible, the story, the messaging.

6:26I think it's going to really surprise people. Well, in the book, as we know, and also in the film, we get the message that complacency leads people to abandon their independent way of thinking. So I want to know, do you feel like our culture, there's a part of our culture that's complacent right now? I think our culture is more alive and vibrant than it's ever been. And I think we're waking, sleeping ideas that have been dormant for a long time. And it's terrifying and thrilling and exciting. but I think social media has opened up a conversation that was not possible even 10 years ago. And I'm seeing this collective, I mean, just this is my perspective, I'm seeing women talking about things that they never spoke about, and they're feeling powerful because they're actually getting heard.

7:17I will say that complacency is one of the scariest words for me personally, because I've noticed in the past year or so, even on social media, people who were not necessarily speaking their minds about certain things feeling the urge they had to and as people who all has social media accounts you worry being complacent I think is the thing that history looks back on the worst and when you think you know I'm an actress I'm a writer I don't necessarily want to get involved in politics every single day and yet now I feel that complacency is now if you are complacent it's it's one of the worst things you can say about a person and that's very recent.

7:58It's like sitting around, it's like doing nothing. Doing nothing. Yes. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. That has been for my entire adult life, I've heard that but I think in the past, you know, two years or so I felt like it's resonated and it's a lot. Yeah, so we're living in an era where you believe complacency is dying and that people are actually called to and feel the need to speak up. Now, it's interesting because in O Magazine every month this year, we're asking the big questions. And in particular this month, in honor of Wrinkle in Time, we're asking the question, what would you be a warrior for?

8:37What is the thing you're most willing to stand for? Well, for me, it's women's stories and trying to create opportunities for women to tell their stories because I think we cannot expect change in our society and culture if we hear the same, we see the same movies by the same 20 directors over and over and over again. And for me, it's been a mission for the past five years to create better parts for women, but also opportunities for women of color, women of different generations to tell their stories in any capacity, whether they're taking photographs or they're doing podcasts. Just shine a light on those people.

9:15Yeah, what is the thing you most willing to stand for? I think the plate of refugees now, in particular, like the Rohingya people who have largely, for the past five years, have been right on the edge of genocide, but now people are beginning to notice when hundreds and thousands of people are pushed out of their homeland. And again, on the brink of genocide, you know, it just feels like every different part of our world, there's not a section of it where there is not some kind of active genocide happening. and right now it's with the Rohingya people. So the refugee crisis is... It's the worst refugee crisis since World War II, isn't it?

9:52Ever. And the fact that I felt that refugee used to not have the connotations five years ago of... They are now considered, I believe, refugees, that term is used as untrustworthy, derogatory, and that never used to be the case, and that's disturbing to me. Yeah. You know, if you call someone a refugee now, it has a lot more of this kind of... And look, we're all one environmental disaster, one terrifying world event from being in the same position. And it's, to me, unconscionable how we treat people without compassion. Because there but for the grace of God go any of us. Well, it's interesting.

10:35Reese, I want to start with something you said recently that went viral. you proclaimed in a speech that for women, ambition is not a dirty word. And that actually felt like a call to arms for women, I think, in all walks of life. And it reminded me of a time I was being interviewed, I won't say by whom, was not Barbara Walter, who said, well, my, you're quite ambitious, aren't you? And I remember having to defend, I'd never thought of myself as ambitious before, but having, feeling like I needed to defend being ambitious because it was spoken to me. as though it were a dirty word. Why do you think that you're saying that ambition is not a dirty word?

11:16It struck such a chord. Well, I was reading a scientific study at Columbia about characteristics in women that people found appealing and unappealing. And across the board, ambition was considered an unappealing aspect of femininity. Do you believe it? Even up in recently there was a study at Harvard that said women would deny their ambition in order to seem more appealing to men. And I thought we need to start talking about and reframing this word ambition because it isn't about being selfish. It isn't about being self-serving. It's actually about wanting to create more and do better for communities, schools, the world, the government and reframe it.

11:56That an ambitious woman is not a terrifying thing and it's not a repellent thing. And I don't know. I just thought I wanted to open up a conversation about it. It's true. Ambitious when applied to a woman has the, it means almost ruthless or something. Or there's a lack of femininity or it's a masculine term. And if used on a man, it's considered a great compliment. And I'm a woman. If someone called me ambitious, I would wonder if they, it almost feels a little bit like shade. Shade. Yes. Because it's like you're trying, you have all this drive. And when somebody asked me, it was many years ago too, it was like, well, when's enough, you know, like, isn't it enough already kind of question.

12:36But you've, I think you have liberated us from that because right after your speech about this, someone posted, I just want Reese Witherspoon sitting on my shoulder whispering ambition, ambition into my ear for the rest of my life. I got you. I got you. Whoever you are, I'll be there. I'll do that. What's true about that word is it's like effort. When you're a woman or anybody, you're supposed to be effortless all the time. Effortlessly beautiful is the best compliment. And to show effort or to show that you want something or went after something is so, everyone's always saying when I look beautiful, like, oh, I love it.

13:10It's so effortless. I'm like, what is wrong with effort? What is wrong with effort? Effortful. I think it's fine to be effortful. But so, particularly when you're on camera, it's considered to be not a great quality. Yeah, when you work for two hours, it'll look that way. It'll look that way. Yes. So, yeah, why do you think women are so conflicted by this idea of wanting more? Well, I think that, you know, this idea of putting women in a siloing them off, figuring out ways to keep them smaller or make them feel less or feel less accomplished, it's It's like, it's just systematic, and we have to start talking about it in order to change the ideas that we are going to see in young women, for sure.

13:57Well, you've had that kind of drive, both of you, your whole life. Have you noticed a shift in how people perceive your drive and ambition, particularly after eight Emmys? I think now, being older, I had this epiphany at 40. I was like, you know how basketball players, like NBA players, are always talking about how great they are? why don't women talk about how great they are all the time? Like, you know, LeBron James isn't like, oh no, not me. He's like, I'm LeBron James. And I thought, why don't we change that and be like, I just started thinking. Because when you're a woman and you do that, you're perceived as being too full of yourself.

14:34Well, forget it. I'm going to start wearing my Emmy like a necklace. That's what I've decided. Don't stab yourself because those wings can hurt. No, I don't know. Why do we diminish our accomplishments? Why do we do it? We do it to each other. and we do it in front of men. And I've started going into business rooms and going, yeah, I deserve that. First of all, tell me, first of all, what, I was looking at you on the side, actually. I could see a peek of you, like right over my shoulder, when Laura Dern, hers was the first one of the night. Yeah, when she went to Miami. We were talking about Big Little Lies.

15:10And hers was the first one of the night. And you were, I thought that you were going to rise up and float out. Levitate. Levitate. I literally thought if you could, if a smile, if a smile could make you fly, you would have, you were like your whole, I thought you were going to get up and just over the stage. What were you thinking and feeling in that moment? I've never wanted so much for someone else in my entire life. To win, I could feel that. It makes me want to cry when I think about it right now. Yes, you were so, it was like you were one. It's like she was moving, but you were moving with her.

15:48Yeah, she's my friend. I just, I know every part of her. I know every struggle she's had. I've had no, I've known so many joys in her life and there's no better feeling than watching this person that you love and just - Created a role for. Yeah, but she just ascended and she made it even better. It was there, she made it even better. And she was fantastic, she was wonderful. And she's, so funny. She's a beautiful, generous, lovely person and just to see her have that moment of ascendancy and that moment in the light, it was just, it was too much. I just tried to cry. Somebody made a meme out of it, of me basically levitating.

16:23My smile is exploding out of my face. It's like you're going to go out of your chair. And then it was award after award. Okay, so including outstanding limited series, lead actors, supporting actors, supporting actor, director, one after the other. So what were you feeling? Now you've had a chance to actually step back from it. I have because it still feels completely surreal. Yeah. I think it just was completely unexpected. And I mean, the audience response was amazing to the material. We had no idea it would be received that way. But at the top of the... Millions and millions. Like eight million people watching every week.

17:01It's unbelievable. And then at the top of the Emmys, they said there were 450 scripted shows that year. And I thought, and we even got the opportunity to stand there. Yeah. But I meant what I said. I thought it was an incredible year for women to see people like Susan Sarandon. Jessica Lange, like Elizabeth Moss, The Handmaid's Tale, these stories that were putting women at the center but also that women were the architects behind the scenes, getting these stories out there, champion these stories, I think that was the, that was a great, one of the great stories that came out of the Emmys this year and it felt different than any award show I'd ever been to.

17:36I think some other award shows need to wake up. Wake up for that. Pay attention. And did things change in the weeks to follow? Did things change for you, your company? Oh my gosh. The way you were perceived, the way the work is perceived? I mean, I was saying earlier, like I had sold one pilot television show three years ago. It didn't get made. We sold six shows to different networks in the past two weeks. Amazing. Which is so exciting. And they're all about women at the center of the stories and female creators behind the scenes. and it just feels like an incredible shift for me and momentum that I've never had before, particularly in TV, which is so exciting to me.

18:18Well, let's talk about you, Miss Mindy. Let's talk about the fact that of the deeper meaning behind you achieving so much in your career. You said that it's so important for women who look like me, look like you, to find that they can be beautiful or objects of love, attention, and affection. I want to know if you saw yourself that way at first, and how did that process unfold for you? You know, for someone who is often touted for my confidence, I think that at the beginning, and certainly when I was working on The Office for so many years, I did not feel that way. But what occurred to me in the time that I worked at The Office was when I was watching TV, and the TV landscape has changed so much even in the past 10 years, is although I was having a fun romantic love life and having friends and dating that no one who looked like me that was ever reflected in anything that I ever saw you I there's many shows that I was fans of like Sex and the City and all and but no one there was it was four fun dynamic white women and that was what all that's what you got and it was a wonderful show but I just hadn't seen anything except that, except, you know, maybe like Living Single, which had been before that.

19:33And so for me, it was very transformative for me to be able to not only be able to be the lead in something, which was surprising enough, but to also represent a group of people that had largely been left out of being able to show and express romantic love on television. And so that felt really special and that continues to be even now as the show is airing its final episodes. The thing that most people stop me, Asian women, African-American women who come up to me and say thank you for looking like me, for having a dynamic fun love life and doing that. So that's, I'm very proud of that. You know I love all these like super soul conversations and this is a super soul podcast.

20:16I wanted to ask you about your mother whom I know you loved and adored and and she lost her battle with pancreatic cancer on the same day that your show, The Mindy Project, was given the green light. And I always say when you lose somebody you love that you gain an angel that you know. And I really do believe in the connection between the spirit life and our own life because I believe that we're all spirits. Did you see the divine timing in that too? I did, and I think the way that you expressed it is exactly how I felt it. I think that is the perfect expression of what it was, because it was such a long shot.

21:01I mean, my show had been passed over at NBC, where I had worked for eight years. I'd written 26 episodes of The Office, and I wrote this pilot for them. They passed over on it, so it was such a long shot that it would travel to Fox, and they would even be interested in it, because they had their own development going. And so, you know, I was keeping my mother abreast of all of this towards the end, because it was she loved asking about loved asking about it and wanted to know it and so that was i think divine timing was correct i mean it was as though when she passed away there was something she was able to help me in another way it was it was within the hour actually and i didn't get the news because i believe that's so strongly it was very very strange but i i do i do compl i 100 agree with you that she had something to do with that.

21:48You know what I started to notice is when Maya Angelou's mother passed. Shortly after her mother passed, she got a call from the White House to do the poem at Bill Clinton's inauguration. And I said, that's your mother. And over and over again, I've seen in the lives of my friends who've lost dearly beloved loved ones, how that transition, like when Ava's father passed, I said, watch what's going to happen. Doors are going to open, things are going to clear, things are going to show up for you. So I wonder, do you ever feel her presence? Do you ever? I do. I've been surprised at how, and you all have had loved ones who have passed away, but I've been surprised at how my relationship with her has continued even though she's not here.

22:34And I think that comes from the fact that when you know someone so well, you know what they would think in any situation. She was not a shrinking violet. She was very opinionated. So when you say the relationship is continued even though she's not here, in what way? How is that expressed? If something comes up in the news or even if I'm trying on an outfit in the morning, I can look in the mirror and I would know what she would think. And sometimes, I mean, I will have the most vivid dreams as someone who is, I'm very skeptical as a person, but I will have the most vivid dreams of her talking to me.

23:07And even in my dreams, I'm skeptical. I'm asking her, Mom, how can this be? I know you're not here. I know you're not here. and she's like I know but I am here and I had a dream like this two months ago and I was you know five and a half months pregnant and I woke up and I said I know that you're supposed to have weird pregnancy dreams but this one is like I was an investigative journalist with my own mother and they're dreaming like this isn't real mom and she's like I know what it is so um and she was telling me that she was all right so I I do believe my relationship both when I'm asleep and then also So in my decision making, she's always there.

23:40Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. That doesn't sound weird to me at all. No. And so what is, first of all, what's the greatest lesson she passed on to you? She has a saying. I don't think she invented this, but she told me it, so it was new to me. She said, before you can say I love you, you need to be able to say I. Which has been something that I have seen in my romantic relationships, my platonic relationships, my professional relationships. But and that has been before you can give yourself to somebody else you need to know what you stand for Whoa and anytime I have been in an unsuccessful relationship in my past.

24:15I have noticed oh It's because one of us was not able to say I You mean to stand in the eye to stand in the eye to know the eye yes fully yeah Yeah, I thought that was very useful and has proven true over and over again And what is the lesson that you most want to pass on to your child? That's a great question. I don't know. I don't know yet It's a great question and I'll have to come back to you on that one. It's a good one. It's a good one. Yeah. You can start with that one. I know. Start with the passing on the eye. You know what I found so interesting reading about you, Reese, is that when your mother saw Wilde, she said, you must have seen me or known me in some way, because that turns out to have been part of what your mother was saying.

25:02And you must have somehow energetically taken that on because your mom lost her mother when she was about the same age as Cheryl, straight and wild. And so do you think you did that? Is talking about energy being transferred? Do you think you saw that? Yeah, in a way I think I was walking in my mother's shoes. Yeah, because she was very expressive when we were little that she missed her mother every single day. Part of the way Mindy and I know each other is through wild. We really connected through that movie and talking about it. And yeah, my mother lost her mom to a brain aneurysm when my mom was 20.

25:44And I think it was the sadness of her life. She still cries about it. If it comes up, it's very real for her. And so I think in a way, wild was a very healing process for me to discover my mother's grief and to talk to her about it. And I would call her. I read somewhere where you said you were holding that grief and didn't even know you were holding it. Yeah, I think kids hold the grief of their parents. That's exactly right. And trauma in your body. And I remember I had to call my mom and I said, because there was a scene where I have to go into the room and Laura Dern is dying. And I said, I need you to tell me what happened that day.

26:18And so she got to tell me and she had never told me. And it was just so powerful. Yeah. It turns out my mother's birthday is Cheryl's mother's birthday too. So it's all these points of connection. And it's one of the most beautiful books I've ever read about grief and figuring out yourself and how you build yourself up again. And I love that she said, you know, she walked back to the woman. She knew her mother wanted her to be. And, yeah, in a way, I feel like my mother and I kind of closed the circle on that. And Laura. And Laura was able to play. With Laura in the center of that. Yes, absolutely.

26:57Well, you know, women have now been in the workforce for decades and are, fortunately, there are more leaders now than ever before. And more women, like yourselves, who are doing the hiring. But we still have this thing of tearing each other down, creating in-groups, you know, and out-groups. Now that you're in roles of power and leadership, have you tried to change that and how? Yeah, I mean my experience on sets is I immediately invite everybody to dinner or over to my house. Me too, yeah, it's true. Because I feel like the minute you take off the work hat and you have to just have a glass of wine with someone, or just have a meal, you start to see who they really are.

27:46And I just, I think it cuts down every barrier, every intention. Now, I'm not going to say I haven't worked with people who are, you know, contentious, but of course. But it really diffuses a lot by setting a tone. It makes the performance better also, I think. Yeah, and when you're the leader of a group and you're number one on a call sheet, it's imperative that you set the tone. And I watch you do it on set, you know, and you. It's like your attitude, the way you treat people, the way you respond to people, it's so important. And what you were saying, Oprah, I'm sure you've felt this countless times because you've employed so many thousands and thousands of people, is that that is often happens because as a woman who's an employee, often you are the only woman.

28:28And you think there's not enough space for me. Or, oh, there's only going to be one Indian woman. There's only going to be one minority. I hope I'm it. I can't help anybody else. And, you know, those are the terrible habits you learn when you're younger. And when I was younger in the business. And then as you are as an employer, like, well, if I can stop that anxiety from young women, if I can hire. There isn't only going to be one Indian woman, one African-American woman, one woman, period, in here. There's going to be space for lots. So you don't have to have that anxiety anymore. I think that's one way that we can help or that I've tried to help.

29:02So do you give voice to that when you meet with groups? Yeah, I mean, on my new show, NBC does this wonderful thing. I have a new show on NBC where they have one spot. They say for every staff writer, they will pay for a staff writer if it's a staff writer of color. So it's good because they're going to help offset the cost but then also it makes a competition for this one spot and so this year we had several women and i said could you do two or could we split it and we figure out a financial arrangement so that we could have two writers so that they didn't feel like there was vying for this one spot and it pits you know pinnets women against each other what i found interesting when i read up on both of you uh can you imagine i'm reading up on you after all time I spend with you.

29:42I would have a picture of that. But anyway, I found that you both don't like the word likable. You both don't like the word likable. I don't like that word. Mindy, you said that you take pride in creating the character on the Mindy Project that, you know, isn't always likable. And Reese, you said you're actually allergic to the word likable. Tell me why. Go first. Well, to me, likable is likable to men. To me. That and I And I think that that is something I don't care. I want to not care about that as much. I think relatable is important. I think it is too, yeah. I like that word. Relatable is better.

30:22And I've made so many mistakes where I've made my character not relatable, thinking that, oh no, I don't want her to be likable for, you know, standing on a, you know, trying to put my feminist hat on. Like, I don't care. And then thought, well, no, she isn't relatable either. And that has been my own failing. But knowing the difference has been important to me. You've made, I mean especially in Big Little Lies, Madeline says some very out there things. She's always relatable. She's always relatable. Well it's important. I think I've sat in so many meetings with studio heads going over scripts in my early part of my career where I was in romantic comedy after romantic comedy and hearing things like, yeah but would audiences like it if she did that?

31:03Or she can't kiss another man or be in a relationship with, she can't look like she likes two guys at once. And I don't know, it was just so much, and it was always a group of men telling me what they thought was a likable quality in a woman. So when I did independent films, I would do things like election, which is, Tracy Flick is lots and lots of things, but not necessarily likable. And I had a hard time getting jobs after that performance, because studio heads thought I was crazy. Too ambitious. She was very ambitious. She was ambitious, and it was repellent. They don't think you're so crazy anymore.

31:44Big little eyes moment. They don't think you're so crazy anymore. Or they're like, give us some of that crazy. I think people want to see the full spectrum of female behavior. I think they're pretty tired. And all of its messiness and complexity. That was not a perfect woman. No. No, by no means. By no means. And she suffered, but she was not an angel. And I thought that was so compelling, because I think you would think in that particular kind of story, this character is a victim. That's right. I think George Wolfe wanted specifically to direct it so, and have it produced so that she wouldn't appear to be.

32:25But in A Wrinkle in Time, the three of us play what some people might see as guardian angels. Do you believe in angels? I've never thought about it. For sure I believe in angels. I love asking a question you never thought about. I've never thought about it. Do you believe? You've never thought about your guardian angels? I've never thought. I don't know that I have a guardian angel. I think of beings that are thinking about me and protecting me, but I've never put the term angel on it. I had a really bad car wreck six years ago. I was hit by a car. I was actually jogging. I was hit by a car and I got really badly hurt and bad head injury.

33:05And I walked away with no broken bones, no head trauma, no internal bleeding. And the doctors were like, I don't understand it. And I know, I know I have angels like and I have to talk about it because it wouldn't be it wouldn't acknowledge the kind of, to me, that's divine intervention, or somebody took care of me that day. I wouldn't be here. It was that violent and difficult. Well, we were talking earlier, your mom is one for sure. Now that I've never put that into those terms, you're right. Oh, for sure. Guarantee. And I don't just have, I have a team. You? I have a team. Who is it? Well, my grandmother and grandmothers before her, I have a team.

33:50I've actually... Do you see them? No, I've never seen them. I've actually told them, don't want to. Don't want to. I'm not ready for that yet. But I do. I'm supported by, you know, there's a wonderful poem by Maya Angelou that says, I think it's called a poem to our grandmothers, actually, where she says, I come as one, but I stand as 10 ,000. And often I've been in boardrooms where I was the only woman, only person of color. You couldn't find another woman or another person of color within a hundred mile radius. I've been in those situations where you're like, is there a brown kind of looking person somewhere?

34:30And before I walk into that room, I will say that poem, the line from that poem, I come as one, but I stand as 10 ,000 because I feel the presence. I feel the energy of that. There's a whole pack behind me. That's so empowering. There's a tribe behind me. And when I've had to make difficult decisions in my company, I literally went into my closet and I called them up. I said, OK, going in, going to do it, stand with me. So yeah, I definitely do believe in the energies of people who passed who are still with us in some way. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And the people who came before us who cut the path that we stand in, I'm always deferential to them.

35:11Well, Eva wears that shirt. You know, I am my ancestor's greatest dream. Greatest dream. I love it. That's why doing Wrinkle was just like, oh, this makes sense to me. Okay, what's the most difficult decision you've had to make to fulfill your destiny? For me, probably leaving an abusive relationship. For me, it was realizing that I was not going to be friends with everybody along the path of achieving what I wanted. that I would have to, it's not that profound, but that I would make enemies, make people that would not be my friends and being okay with that. Okay, I have to follow up to leaving an abusive relationship.

35:52What was the decision? There's a moment, was it physically, verbally, verbally both? Psychological, verbal, yeah. Okay, and at what moment, was it several instances or some moment you decided? A line got drawn in the sand and it got crossed and my brain just switched and I knew it was going to be very difficult but I just couldn't go any further. It was profound and I was young, really young. And that made all the difference. I could never be the person I am today. I was a different person too. It changed who I was on a cellular level. The fact that I stood up for myself. None of leaving those situations is easy because it's wrought with self-doubt, particularly if someone damages your self-esteem, which is, I mean, people say to me, they knew me then, they're like, you're a complete, I didn't have self-esteem, you know, and I'm a different person now, and it's part of the reason I can stand up and say, yes, I'm ambitious, and yes, because someone tried to take that from me.

36:55And it's also part of the reason why you want to, or a part of your drive is telling the complexity of those stories for other women. It was incredible when we did Big Little Lies, how we would sit around all the women and talk about each one of us had very specific experiences. There was a range of experiences, but there wasn't a woman there that hadn't been affected by abuse. Not one of those women. And it's why we decided to make this show. And I'm hard-pressed to find any group of women where you can't say, it happened to my sister, it happened to my mom, I saw this or and there's a range of abuse you know there's there's verbal, there's psychological, there's there's so many things other than physical that can be completely detrimental to your self-worth, your self-esteem and your progress.

37:47And you know what it's all the same because I remember holding as the standard for myself having grown up watching a cousin of mine who was like my mother's sister and I grew up in the house with her older cousin and her boyfriend used to abuse her so that was my standard I will never physically abuse her and as a kid I was like 10 years old saw him knock her down the stairs so my thing was I'll never let somebody hit me I'll never let somebody hit me so I lived in that superior better than thou space of as long as he doesn't hit me well he can say anything he can do anything but as long as he doesn't hit me and one day in my 20s guy was leaving the person who wouldn't hit me slammed the door in my hand and I fell and I saw myself in the mirror and I realized I had become that woman who would allow myself to be psychologically verbally assaulted and that there was no difference between that and being actually hit yeah the more we give voice to it, like you just did so beautifully.

38:57And the more that we make art about it and tell stories, you were saying it's great to see a story about it. It changes consciousness. That's why Nicole's sitting in that therapy office and confessing the shame of it, you know, because... And hiding it first. And hiding it at first and then confessing the shame of it was so important. Yeah, it's profound. Okay, what's the lesson that took you the How long is it to learn? Lesson that it's okay to say no. I was going to say the same thing. Really? But I still haven't learned. That would be mine. That's your check. Yeah, I think when you're a yes person.

39:34You got it? No, I would say that I was going to amend it and be like I'm still trying to learn it, but saying no is the hardest thing. Yeah, when you're a person, I think a positive person and an outgoing person and you love life, you want to say yes all the time and it can be debilitating. You're an A student, your people pleaser. I'm tired a lot. I've got to learn. You know that it's Shonda wrote the book of Yes, the year of Yes. I was like, I need a year of No. Or Sheryl Sandberg wants you to lean in. I'm like, I need to sit down. I'm not leaning over anywhere. I'm going to fall over. I need to lean back and take a nap.

40:08Totally. All right. We could talk forever, but thank you for joining me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.