Super Soul Special: RuPaul Charles: We’re All In Drag

0:00I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Hello. Hi, kiddo. Hey, kiddo. How you doing? Good to see you again. Good to see you again. Thanks for joining. Oh, I have those. You do? Yeah. I have them in red, navy, and white. Oh, my God. You know what would be a wonderful thing to see? Is your closet. Would it thrill me? It would. It would absolutely thrill you.

0:43I bet it would just... I bet it would give me, like, the all-overs. It's kind of crazy right now. I just finished production, so there's stuff all over the place. I have a... I live here in L.A. and in New York, but I have a condo here that is specifically for... my clothes really yeah it's a whole condo because i was going to ask you how many square feet is your closet oh i have no idea it well it's an apartment yeah yeah it's an apartment but i have stuff at the house too um i have big uh these big plastic crates with all the gowns in them and then in new york i have a bunch of stuff so do you keep the gowns i yeah it depends on what is usable now what's already been used.

1:27Do you know what you've used for everything? Is it all archived and all that? Yeah. Of course. And actually some of the stuff, you know, the Statue of Limitations has run out on some of the gowns that I wore on the VH1 show. I had a talk show 20 years ago. So some of those gowns, which I still have, I can wear them again. Those are now considered vintage. No, but you know, the kids who watch our show, they've never seen those before. on the crisp before social media so I can wear them again. You know, after Jean-Franco Ferret used to be my favorite designer. I loved, loved him. Loved, loved. The white crisp shirt and that pant.

2:04The pant. Oh, so gorgeous. So architectural he was. Yeah, yeah. And after he passed, I mean, I still have to this day. So I still have every single thing he ever designed for me personally and every single thing I bought off the rack. I never have gotten rid of him because nobody to this day has made a better white shirt. Wouldn't you agree? You're absolutely right. But what do you do with your old stuff? I don't, I just keep everything. I don't. Well, I have a whole place in Chicago where it's like archived and packaged and you could pull it up if I needed it. I'm never going to do that, but I certainly have it because some things I just, that was the hardest thing for me in the move from Chicago to here was the clothes.

2:46I could get rid of furniture, antiques, art, apartment, forget about it, never have to see it again. But holding on to a Franco foray skirt, honey, gotta have it. I used to, you know, I would see you in white turtlenecks and I always wondered, how are you able to get a white turtleneck over a face that's been made up? Well, so you put the little netting thing over and then pull it over. Uh-huh. You put the little netting, you know, the black girl bonnet over your head, over your face. Do-rag, face rag. Face rag. Yeah. Face rag. So I have a funny story to tell you. I told, when I was telling Gail I was going to be interviewing you for podcasts for Super Soul.

3:25She was on a plane with you. Do you remember? That she was, you all were on an early morning flight someplace. And she said she was looking like Slumpa and Dinka, like trying to hide. Then she saw you get on the plane and she went, oh no, I'm going to have to pass him to get out. And so she said she came up to you, first of all, to marvel at how great you looked at seven in the morning. She goes, I don't know how you're doing this at 7 in the morning, and to apologize for looking the way she did. Do you remember this moment? I do, I do. You know what? The easiest thing for a man to do is to throw on a suit and a jacket and a shirt.

4:02You're done. You're done. Yeah, and it's the easiest thing in the world to do, you know? And you look great. I always tell the kids who I'm at work with, I say, if you wore a suit, you'd make more money. Really? Mm-hmm. And why do you say that? Because it changes the way you move around and navigate this earth and how people interpret who you are. Exactly. Stedman was leaving home last night and was going back to Chicago. And he said, I'm going to put my suit pant on, my suit jacket. And I go, why are you doing that? Why are you just, he goes, people treat you different. They do. They treat you different when you're wearing a suit jacket.

4:35He goes, they just treat you different. And it's just funny, you know, you're on the planet long enough. and you understand certain, I wouldn't call them tricks, but certain ways to navigate that help, that you just understand how things work. You know how things work. And you go, you know, I'm going to work it. Can you believe the level? You know, it's like back in the 90s. I don't remember when, Supermodel, when was that out? 90? 92. 92. Okay. So you had that whole era, and now something happened in the zeitgeist that made your way of being and branding and identifying made it a cultural phenom at this particular time, don't you think?

5:20Oh, yeah. That you've become this symbol that inspires not just young people, but so many people in the midst of their own questioning, their own pain, their own identity, right? And so you must hear from so many. Is that correct? I hear from a lot of young people, from everyone, everyone. It's not just gay or, you know, drag queen or any of that. It's people who not only dance to the beat of a different drummer, but who are super sensitive and sometimes too sensitive for this world. Yeah. Because their hearts are so open and they've been beaten down so much that they see in what we're doing a place where it could be celebrated.

6:11Is there one particular story or person that stands out to you? No, no. You know, the interesting thing is the stories are all the same. They're really all the same. And, you know, the story of the hero with a thousand faces who isn't recognized by the world and they're not recognizing themselves. Well, you know, it is interesting. I knew that you were my kind of human when I first heard you say that we're all born naked and the rest is just drag. Because I have a different way of saying that, but I mean the same thing, that we're all in these kind of body suits. And you come up with these definitions and these ideas about who you really are.

6:58but we all are, my favorite quote, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who said we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And I got that as a kid. You know, I was a young kid and I thought, is everybody getting that this is all kind of an illusion? And I couldn't get anybody to corroborate with me until... Do you remember the first time you thought that, though? I remember when my parents were in the living room going crazy you know, beating each other up, I knew this can't be right. But, you know, when I was about 11 years old on PBS, I found my tribe in Monty Python's Flying Circus.

7:42I thought, okay, they get it. Okay, they're irreverent, they're not taking anything seriously, and they're having fun. That's what this is all about. So that's when I got it very early. My sisters also, you know, we laughed. That was our sanctuary, was a place where we could, you know, find some peace. So what would you say defines you? Today, this moment? You know, I don't do that. The moon, the stars, the sun, you know, I'm everything and nothing at all. Oh, I love that. So you don't put yourself in any kind of box, any kind of label, any kind of... None of them felt comfortable. none of them felt that that was the right fit.

8:31Because why do you have to define yourself? You don't have to. No, there's no need. That's why people ask me, do I believe in God? I say, sure, sure. What is it? I don't know what it is. There's something there. I don't know what it is. I don't need to know what it is. I don't really care what it is. I know it's there, though. Do you feel connected to it? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. There are moments when it's really strong, and there are moments in my life when it's been like, okay, what's going on here? You know, when you feel out of sync? Yeah. But then, you know, I was driving to this pitch meeting, and I was driving down the street, and my trainer, who I'd seen earlier today, was just walking up the street.

9:18I was like, of all the people I could... But there he is. And it's those coincidences that remind me that... Those coincidences that are not. That are not. Yeah. Just to remind me that you're absolutely where you're supposed to be right now. When did you first know that going drag was a way of expressing and a way of being that would be meaningful to you and to other people? You know, I am an opportunist. Yeah. And a show off. And I knew that show business would be my path. I didn't know how it would be, how it would work. But I didn't define myself, so I keep an open mind. Then I was in punk rock bands in Atlanta, Georgia, and drag sort of happened to us.

10:10It was never about sexual identity or anything. It was really punk rock. And so when I did it for the band, the reaction I got from people was, whoa. Whoa. And this was not like glamour drag. This was what we called... This was not sachet sante? No, no, no, no, no, no. This was what we called gender F word drag, which was combat boots and smeared lipstick and ah, you know, it was a social comment. You know, this is the Reagan 80s, and we're just making a social comment. But I knew that I had power in it because of the reaction I got from people. The same way I can adjust how people interpret me in a suit, I can adjust how people interpret me in drag, because a suit's drag, too.

11:00But that's when I understood, hmm, I could do something with this. Whoa. But for you, going drag really applies to all of us. It's whatever we put on after we get out of the shower, right? That's exactly right. And why not make it work for you? Why not make... If you have the power to control how people see you and interpret you, why not use it? How do you flow between one and the other? This is very easy. Are you getting paid or are you not getting paid?

11:36Well, now. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, no, no, no. And I've told people before, if I never did drag again, I'd be, okay, fine. That drag. Okay, that drag. So she is not an alter ego or she is? No, nothing. No. It's just getting paid, not getting paid. And again, back with the identity, I don't, I'm everything and nothing at all. Everything and nothing at all. Okay. Tell me what getting that Emmy meant to you. Well, first of all, in this business, I've always worked outside. I've been a fringe artist. I've always been outside the system. So when the system comes and says, hey, we're digging what you're doing, that was great because of all the people I work with.

12:25For me, as a solo contract player, what the system thought of me was not really that important to me. You know, because it couldn't be because having worked outside the system for so long, if that was part of what I needed, I wouldn't have survived because they were not given it to. They weren't giving it to me. Right. So so that wasn't part of what I was planning on. But because I work with a lot of people who work very hard within the system, it meant a lot. Yeah. But what you started out to get, I'd read this, tell me if it's true. You'd started out just to get people to say, RuPaul, I love you.

13:05Uh-huh. Yeah. You were looking for I love you. Yeah. And the Emmy is in many ways a big oh I love you. It is. Definitely. But you know I had passed a RuPaul I love you bit after many years of therapy and many years in this business. Why was that your particular goal? Well that was the that was the goal of a very young person who needed that and who didn't know exactly what it was that I really needed. Because eventually you learned that all the I love you's in the world don't fill whatever it is you're trying to fill. Exactly. That's exactly right. And that's where all roads lead to that place.

13:42And so when I made that declaration, I was still in a place where I didn't know yet. Yeah. So you had to figure it out. How? Well, you figure it out by hitting your head up against the wall really, really hard. And you're thinking, when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, you really do find a solution. I realized early on I was a seeker. So I continued to seek, and I knew that the only place I could find that, would feel that God-sized hole was with me. And I'd read, too, that your quest for fame was to fill that emptiness inside, that void. And the void came from? The void came from knowing that there was something more.

14:26You know, I talked earlier about wanting to find my tribe, wanting to find other people who I could say, did you see that? Did you feel that? Most people are really not there. Disconnected. So disconnected. I say the people are the living, walking dead every day. I was at stoplight yesterday, and a woman was walking down the street, not looking at a phone. She was just contemplating her life. And I wanted to roll the window, and I said, hey, lady, I love you. You're here. you know because you don't see that anymore no everybody's doing this on their phone it's crazy so uh you know um i was looking for for a connection and and that's uh that's what that was about yeah yeah you mentioned therapy years of therapy to get there years of therapy to get there but you know i'm from san diego so i and i grew up in the 70s with the whole self-help thing so i read even as a teenager i was reading all those self-help books i'm okay you're okay you You know, all of them.

15:23And, you know, I think it's a California thing too. But, you know, I was always a seeker. Well, you do talk and write a lot about your spiritual awareness. Where did that come from? Did you have a moment of awakening? You know, my mother was very religious, but she was not into organized religion. She didn't go to church. She could quote the Bible. But, you know, it's like being a fish and wondering if water really exists, you know. I didn't have to become having a spiritual awakening. I'm a spiritual being. I'm a spiritual being. It's just, I can feel it. Having a human experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:02And you knew that as a kid. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm surprised when people don't know it. I'm surprised when they're so disconnected that they don't realize, oh, there's really just one of us here. Oh, I'm not surprised because the level, I think that this, what I've concluded is that this whole human plane is dense. You know, there's a thickness. There's a thickness to the air that we breathe. There's a thick, there's a density that people can't seem to break through. But it's amazing that often on your show, you seem to be giving, you know, spiritual advice. Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. These kids, you know, we set up a situation on this competition reality show where we challenge them to go beyond their own limited perception of themselves.

16:51And that is the greatest spiritual teaching there is. Absolutely. And these are all the things in my career I've been able to do. They look up to me because I've been doing this for a long time. So we put them through these challenges. and it really, the real challenge is for them to be willing to die and become reborn. Through these challenges, a lot of times one kid, we had a comedy challenge and she's like, well, I'm not funny, I'm not a comedy queen. I says, listen, what you do with your makeup, what you do when you're lip syncing, apply that to comedy. You've got it. She got out there, funny, funny, funny.

17:29And, you know, that is true for everyone. Like I said, there's only one of us here on this planet. We are connected. We're just one thing. So if you can apply what you know really well in another area to this area which you think you may not know, you've got something. Yeah. I think I heard you on some show talking about how we're ultimately expressing as God so that's the ultimately that we're like god in drag absolutely yeah absolutely it's not really rocket science but people but people i don't know people ready to hear that and listen i didn't come up with any of this stuff this is what i've learned to navigate and maintain uh an equilibrium on this dense uh plane you know you know um i saw that kid um the hollywood medium and you know that we live in a lower frequency.

18:29The spirit world is a hybrid, and the mediums can go in between. And it's just an interesting concept. You were talking about earlier, that density. It's an interesting concept to sort of break some of that up and to be a force on this planet to open that up. And I think we try to do that with our show. But I see you doing it in your life, too, because you feel like such a joyful human being. Joy is a high frequency. You talk a lot about being positive, and you have spoken about how just being negative is actually lazy. And positivity, as you know, too, is a higher frequency. It's reaching for the higher ground all the time.

19:14Are you always in the joy space? No. No. Okay. No, I'm night and day, black and white. Do you have to work at it? Absolutely, every day. I meditate, I stretch, I go to the gym. You know, when I'm saying those things out loud on the show, I'm actually saying them to myself. You know, whenever I'm telling anyone, hey, kiddo, there's a scene in Witches of Eastwick where one of the characters falls off the banister. And they say to her, Jane, laugh, laugh, Jane, laugh. And she, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, she levitates off the ground. So I always try to remind people to, she doesn't hit the ground. She falls and she doesn't hit the ground.

19:56She levitates because of the laughter, which I think is the most powerful spell you can cast. I know one of the things that your show does is champions freedom of not just expression, freedom of lifestyle, just plain old freedom. What do you think is a new way that people on both sides of our current divide in our country can understand each other and see themselves in each other? How can we use what you're doing to help us see each other differently? Because I think that's one of the things that you've done with the show. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think the first, you start with realizing that our biggest misconception is thinking that we're separate from one another.

20:39I know. I know you keep saying that we're all just one. I know what you mean by that, but I don't think people understand that at all. And I think, you know, in that last breath, I've talked to people who had near-death, I think in that last breath, that's going to be the biggest damn surprise to everybody that all this time you were fighting against, pushing against, and you're pushing against your own self. You didn't even see yourself as one. It's unfortunate it would be in the last breath, but, child, you better get in now. It's true. Child. You better get in that, girl.

21:18Okay. So what do you think we could do? How do we begin to see each other as one? You know, first, it starts here. It starts here. You know, when I was in 10th grade, my 10th grade teacher told me, he said, RuPaul, don't take life too effing seriously. And I didn't get it then. I got it later. I did not get it then. But I learned to first laugh, don't take everything so seriously, and then be kind. Be kind. Because there's only one of us here, when you are dissing someone else, you're actually dissing yourself. And you've got to realize that that has an effect on you. Everything that you put out comes back to you.

22:04I mean, this is... Well, that's my law. That's my religion. That's it right there. What you're putting out is coming back. That's what it is. I live by that. And, you know, it seems so simplistic, but it's... Listen, a child cannot... Children do understand it. They do. Yeah. Actually, more so than people who are all sort of stuck in their own ways of being. And, you know, I didn't come up with any of this stuff. This is not... This is what I've learned to maintain on this planet. But I think people hear it differently coming from you. I think you saying it reaches an audience that might not hear it from someone else.

22:37another kind of philosopher. They're not reading Emerson or some of the others. Why do you think drag is resonating so deeply with people, particularly at this moment in our culture? You know, there's a new breed of young people out there. There's a new voice. We do a convention called DragCon here in L.A. and in New York. And the kids who come, they don't identify as gay or straight. They are smart. And they are looking for a voice, almost a new belief system that transcends the 20th century that is completely of the 21st century. So I think that they found our show with all these different platforms that you can watch television on your phone and all these places.

23:28YouTube. Yeah. They're watching YouTube. Around the world they watch it on our show on Netflix and stuff like that. Here, obviously, it's on terrestrial television. But I think our show speaks to that forward-thinking voice, that emerging voice of young people who are looking for something. It's almost like a religion or a way of life. They see the kids on our show, overcome not only their personal adversities, but the challenges with the other kids on the show, and they realize, I can do that. Or they identify with the other kids on the show. A lot of times I'll be, I go walk around the workroom with, I ask the kids what they're doing in this challenge, and I'll break it down.

24:18I'll say, you know what, listen, I do the same thing. what you're doing. Like one kid was anxious. She was anxious. I said, you're addicted to the anxiousness. You've got this. This challenge, you've got this. You are addicted to being anxious. Now, just ruminate on that for a minute. She came back later and said, that's it. That's it. Addicted to the anxiousness? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I used to be late to places and I realized that I was addicted to the um the rush oh boy oh shoot oh shoot yeah when I let go of that addiction I'll arrive 10 minutes early just to let bitches know who they working with I will I'll arrive sometimes 15 minutes early wow yeah like because Anna Wintour I think that she does that.

25:11She'll call a meeting for noon and she'll be there at 11.45. Oh my gosh. Everybody's like thrown. I love that. Throne, honey. Who are you when you're at your best? Oh, a sweetie pie, kind, forgiving. I don't know if you drive around here at traffic in LA. It brings out the worst in me. And when I can drive down Santa Monica Boulevard and I'm loving, that's when I'm at. Really? Yeah, because I'm paying attention to everything. I'm looking at what people are doing. I'm looking at the woman crossing. I'm just that person. You're that person. I'm aware. And so when I see everyone, they're braiding each other's hair and doing their taxes behind the wheel, careening down the street and they're barbecuing.

26:01Can you believe the people who are on their phones texting? Still. It's beyond. On the freeway. I can't get over. That's scary. What makes you think that you can do that? Yeah. That's an interesting question because there's a part of the brain that we need to address. And talk about this new emerging voice in the 21st century. We have to speak to that other side of the brain, the brain that says, you know, you still see people smoking cigarettes today. And you go, you know, we've been through this, right? You know what this is. Yeah. But what part of the brain says, yeah, go on, do it. we have to address that we don't address that in our culture and I think that is the next level of next of our evolution is understanding who we really are and being able to see you know I met early mention I said I'm night I'm day I'm black I'm white I'm male female seeing both sides of yourself or all the sides of yourself I'm sure there may be more shades is the next level what allowed you to actually move past anybody's definition, expectation, past everybody's idea of who you should be and carve out a new path?

27:18I think it's, first of all, I think it's who I am, but also my mother was very, very rebellious. She was the kind of person who said, you know, they paying your bills, you pay them bees no mind. And I believed that. And I was a sweet, sensitive kid, so people would hurt my feelings. But you live on the planet long enough, you realize, baby, that had nothing to do with you. That's not yours. It's not even yours. That's what Maya Angela used to say to me. Baby, you're not even in it. You're not even in it. When they wrote the story, when they started the rumor, it wasn't even about you. Yeah. No, and that's...

27:54That takes some time to get to learn, though. It takes some time. You have to be here long enough to be able to get that. But if you're smart, you see the patterns. I love watching Murder, She Wrote. Yes, I heard that you go to sleep watching Angel Lanzar. Yes, she's brilliant. But watching her, this character, deduce what really went down, she puts all the pieces together. And in life, you have to do that. Especially if you want to protect your heart. If you want to navigate this life, you have to be able to see, like we talked about the different levels of consciousness, the lower frequency, high frequency.

28:33You've got to be able to move freely in all those frequencies. Do you think we're becoming a more accepting society, even where we are in this culture? I think some are. I have a lot of hope with young people. I'm surprised people my age, older than me, who have reverted back to an old way of thinking, of like thinking that we could go back to, you know, Jim Crow or, you know, some of the things that come out of people's mouth. I think, what is wrong with you? Weren't you there when we did that already? We've already done that. Yeah. We've already shown that does not work. Yeah, it doesn't work.

29:14And not only does it not work, it's what's really underneath the hood of that is your own self-loathing. Yeah. That's what that's about. Well, it's just that dense thing I was talking about. That's low-frequency people. That's a really low vibration, really low. But what have you learned about how we define ourselves through watching and performing drag? Yeah, I bet you've learned a lot. I have learned a lot. You know, first, it just reiterates my initial statement, which is you're born naked and the rest is drag. What it teaches people is that none of this, all things are temporary. Everything's temporary.

29:56Just clothes, it's some paint, powder. This body even is temporary. I'm going to take care of it as much as I can, but that's what it teaches. And also it teaches, you know what's funny is to see a straight man in drag. On our show, we have this thing where we have the girls put guys in drag. And what emerges is really phenomenal. You know, it's like watching, you never know if somebody's going to be a fun drunk or a mean drunk. Or fame is the same way. You know if someone's going to be, and when they get famous, are they going to be a mean famous or a fun famous? Drag is the same way. Really, it doesn't hide who you are.

30:37Drag actually reveals who you are. I was going to say that because that's exactly what fame does, you know. Yes. Yeah. If you're a jerk before you get famous, you just are a bigger, more intensified, under-microscope jerk. And if you're kind, that's what also shows up. Do you get to, you know, drag is all about reinvention. Do you get to still experience different aspects of yourself when you dress up? When I'm doing a drag? I do with the kids on our show. You know, I get to re-experience some of the frustrations that I had through them trying to make it through the challenges. It reminds me, it awakens what it was like for me.

31:24And then I get to go ahead and tell them, hey, kiddo, this is what you're really going through. So I get to experience it through them. But it doesn't reveal new facets of your personality. Not really. No fascist. No matter what gown you're wearing, no makeup, no gown, no dress, no nothing. No nothing that you could do it that would reveal another part of yourself. I don't think so. I've been doing it for so long. No, no. You know, I think every day I'm on this planet. You know, it's not like time is real. It's like everything is happening at once right now. It doesn't feel like. So whatever I may have been frustrated with 20 years ago is still there.

32:13And it'll go, hey, Ru, hey. And I'll go, thanks for sharing, but we're not doing that right now. What do you think drag can teach regular folks about self-expression? Well, I think it could teach everyday people about colors and tones and different levels of consciousness of how you see yourself. I think it's important, I know for me, when I meditate, I go outside of my body and I see, oh, look, that's me right there. Actually, even when I do drag, I'll see a picture and go, is that me? That's crazy! Oh my gosh, still really? Yes, yes, to this day. And I go, that's amazing. And what's even funny is when I have the makeup put on, I'll see it and I go, oh great.

33:12But when I see it on TV, I go, oh, I see what you did. I see how you matched that with that. You know, that's another level of, oh. So I think for everyday people, drag can help you understand many different levels of what you are and what this body is and how amazing it is to have a human body. I do think that too. And what you could do with it. I do still marvel at it. I still marvel at how amazing it is to have a human body. It is amazing. Yeah. And it's so fragile. It's so fragile and that we're still here. Yeah. You know? You hear things all the time. I heard something today. A friend had surgery.

33:53Da-da-da-da. And you think, oh my goodness. I want to take care of it. I want to celebrate it. I want to dance. There's no place to dance. You know what I want to do? What? I want to open a daytime disco in Palm Springs, one of those old huge banks. It would be open like from 11 o 'clock in the morning to say 9. I can't stay up past 9 o 'clock. That's surprising. Yeah. It used to be the opposite. So you could come during the day at lunchtime, dance for 30 minutes to Cool in the Gang, um earth wind and fire stevie wonder i want to dance i want to like when you see kids and they're like three and four and they're just bouncing off the wall like look what i can do yeah yeah yeah i want to relive that i want to do that and uh i want i'd like to i think you're right there's not enough dancing in the world dancing what's the key to perfectly executed drag it's a sense of humor it's as simple as that you don't like i said there are different styles different genres I started with gender F word drag and then I did my soul train dancer look which I loved you know and then I landed on Glamazon because that's what pays the mortgage but I think the most fun drag is the soul train dancer drag where it's you know it's hi Hi.

35:19Yes. It's so much fun. But, you know, I don't get to do that very, well, I don't get to do that at all anymore. Once I got famous, it became, you know, it was a job. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. When you talk, you're an optimist, but has it been an uphill battle to stay optimistic these days? It is an uphill. I'm tired. I'm exhausted by it, and I'm doing my part. but it is exhausting being an optimist because you think you think that people I thought we were further along as humans on this planet and you think wait what did I just imagine that we were moving forward I thought that we were further along so it is exhausting and sometimes you know the mistake that we all made you in me and people like the mistake that we made because the truth is we are I believe in a regressive we've taken step steps backwards but the mistake is that we always thought that civilization evolving moved in a straight line it does not it does not you move forward then you take a couple steps backwards then you're in the dark ages that you come out then you go yes that's the problem we had a greater expectation for what we as humans could be and do And I blame John Kennedy for that.

36:42I blame John F. Kennedy for that. Yes, how? Well, you know, I have two older sisters who are seven years older than me. They were my world. They were my goddesses. And they told me when I was a kid, they said, Rue, the people in charge now are making it so that one day, everyone on this planet will have eight pairs of shoes.

37:08your sister told you that and i love that i thought wow that's where we that's where we're going to the world where everybody's going to have eight eight pairs of shoes yeah and i believed them and i thought okay i'm going to be a part of this how can i how can i help

37:28Yeah, unfortunately, not so true. Wow. You see things on the news. You think, what? Why? What's going on? You know? Yes. It's crazy. Do you think young people will bring about a change? I know that you talk about mobilizing young people to make social change. What does that mobilization look like? We show them through example. I don't have children of my own, but I do know that children learn by, they learn from their parents in ways that the parents don't know about. It's just watching them, watching them how they sip water or what they do with their garbage or how they react to nudity or what someone says.

38:13It's all those things. So it's an inside job and we all have to, we have to pitch in on how we behave. And I think that's, I think that's the key. We have to show them. We have to show them. What do you think the next generation needs to do to make real change, actually? I think it's all the things we talked about. I think it's first, be kind to yourself and remember, because we all know this you know this is not something they have to learn it's something they have to remember yeah we all know because that's what an aha moment is is the remembering of what you already knew yeah so we have to remind them who they really are and they are God having a human spiritual experience on this planet being human so and even having said that you realize too that even the horrible things, the unspeakable things are a part of it.

39:09If you take out judgment, even the horrible things are a part of it. I don't want to be a part of those things. I want to be on the side of the lightness. But you know what I'm saying by that. So we have to show them. We have to remind them. What is the advice you give to, I know you're such a big mentor for LGBTQ kids. So what is the advice you find yourself giving to them the most often? Know thyself. Know thyself. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's for everybody. Yes, for everybody. It's not rocket science, Oprah, you know? Yeah. The fundamental... It's so simple. It's so simple. The fundamental rules of life, the life lessons that will help you navigate, are very simple.

39:55We learn them in kindergarten. Be nice to other people. Be nice to yourself, you know? Know thyself. No, you know, even that me understanding about my addiction to being late, just really like Jessica Fletcher on Murder's Road deducing, okay, what are the elements here? You know, because I don't want to be late. I'm saying, ah, there it is. It's right there. Take that out. Everything's changed. Yeah. I did this with a friend once. I said, you're addicted to chaos. You love it. And you love drawing other people into it. And once you figure that out, you can begin to move forward. oh yeah yeah I'm addicted.

40:34Did they change? Yeah it actually did when it took a while but yeah because for a lot of people they're not like you're like instant oh that's what it is I'm addicted to being late and you can change that it takes a long time for the realization. I want to know what's the lesson that took you the longest to learn? That's a good question you know I grew up with my father who a psychic once told me that he and I had shared past lives together and that when I appeared in this life I was like hey buddy we're here we are again yeah we're gonna rule the school and he could not see me he was shut down shut down and I said okay um well you want joy I can give you some joy oh you want a laugh I got it want to dance you know this whole thing.

41:23And I, for years, was attracted to people who were shut down like that. And I felt my job was to, okay, what do you need? I got it for you. I got it. Let me remind you who you are. The hardest lesson for me to learn in this life has been to let them be, my father, he couldn't have seen me because it would have forced him, if he saw me, it would force him to get in touch with his feelings, which were really heavy and really painful. And I understand that now. Back then, it really hurt my heart. But that was the hardest lesson I've learned, is that let those people who are shut down, let them be.

42:08You know, like you go to a puppy that's come from an abusive place, and you go to pet it, and he goes, and you go, what can I do? I was like, well, you can pray, but that's about it. That's about it. Let them go and figure it out. It sounds harsh. What has been the most difficult choice you had to make to fulfill your destiny? Well, my destiny, I don't think my destiny has really happened yet. But the choice, I'll tell you. It's in process. It's in process. The most difficult choice I have to make is every day, which is choosing to be engaged, choosing to not succumb to the darkness, because I have it there.

42:53It's always there in my peripheral vision, and choosing to stay in kindness and in love. That's the biggest decision I have to make every day. You know? But you asked me what sacrifice I had to make to get where I am today. Yeah, what's been the most difficult choice you had to make to fulfill where you are today? I think it has to do with spending so much time alone. You know, I am married and my husband has a huge, it's a 60 ,000 acre ranch. And he and I do very well on our own. You know, he spends a lot, I'll see him later today, but we spend a lot of time alone. And I think to do this work, to do something really amazing, you have to spend a lot of time alone.

43:53I think that's the biggest sacrifice. I don't know how much of a sacrifice it is because I really don't like being around a lot of people.

44:02You know, they get me nervous. I can fake it for a good long time of, Hi, how you doing? Great. Heard any good jokes lately? But I'm really introvert masquerading as an extrovert. That is a big surprise. Really, though? To a lot of people, but not to me. Because so am I. Because so am I. I mean, I think there's a name for it. I mean, I'm an introvert with extrovert qualities, you know, where I can be out. but I am really most content, happiest, most at myself alone or in front of a large audience. Yeah the binger of people though it does wear my battery down. I can do it. I could do it for a good long time.

44:47What do you think your true purpose on earth is? I think it first starts with me for me to experience this life and to enjoy it and I think if I enjoy it and I could possibly share with other people how to do it, how to have fun. That's one of the best answers I've heard, you know, because so many people think, and I've done so many, you know, conversations, seminars where people are like, what's my purpose, what's my purpose? Your purpose is to be and to experience life, just as you're saying. And then if out of that experience you choose to do something else, that's also okay. But you're here on this planet because you're supposed to experience this planet in its fullness.

45:35Agree? And that the truest expression of yourself is what we're all actually seeking. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because, again, there's only one of us here. Only one of us here. When you look in the mirror, what do you see? Freckles.

45:51You know, it's interesting. You know, I've spent so much time, you know, putting on makeup and using my body for a living. And so, you know, initially I look at it as part of my work. But then when I look at the mirror with my heart, I still see that little boy who loved to dance. You know, there's that song that Stevie Wonder from Hotter Than July. I think it's called Like I Do or something, where it talks about little baby brother used to dance. And it ends with him breaking a lamp and says, oh you done broke mama's lamp you know that song yes yes yes i'm that kid i love to dance i love to laugh those are my two favorite things to do on this planet i laugh a lot don't get to dance as much as i want to and when you look in that mirror you see a person who fills that fill the fill in the blank i see a person who is a seeker i see a person who is looking for uh some joy, some laughs.

47:02I like the lighter things of life. I like the music and the colors and the smells. I like love. I like those things. I like to stay away from the dark stuff. It's there, but I tend to go to the light side. Would you say you were at one of the best places for yourself? Have you reached the best place for yourself? I think so right now. It's a really good time. It's the best of times. It's the worst of times. But it's a good place. It's a good place. And again, I'm paying attention to everything. But I am focusing on the joy. Thank you. Thank you. I loved it. Good. Thank you. Thank you. That was perfect.

47:49Good, good. Perfect. I'm Oprah Winfrey. And you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.