Super Soul Special: Trevor Noah: Born a Crime

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1:00I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Welcome, Trevor Noah! Trevor Noah! Trevor Noah! Hey, you. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. Wow. Wow. Oh, my goodness. Let me just tell you. I have to say, I love this book. I love this book so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. And really, I have to tell you, I am so impressed that you were able to bring the story to the world in a way that has such humor and such depth, such sincerity and such truth.

2:08Really fantastic. Thank you very much. Amazing. It's called Born a Crime, and I got to just tell you, you're going to love it. I've never heard of a comedian, actually, who grew up in apartheid South Africa under such extreme conditions and then being able to turn that around into comedy. Well, I think that's really what I've found comedy is for me. You know, my whole life, comedy has always been a tool that I have used to process pain. It's how my family communicated. It's one thing we had. We always laughed. And you've been to Soweto. You've seen how we live there. You know, the weird thing is when I always say to people, when you're poor, like being poor sucks, but being poor together makes it a lot better, right?

2:52Because you're in it together, and it doesn't discount the fact that you don't have, but then you start to enjoy the things that you do have, and that is each other. And so we laughed, we enjoyed ourselves, we had something that sometimes you don't have when you have too much, and that is the ability to focus on the human beings around you. But, you know, I thought this was the best example or definition of apartheid I'd heard. you say it was a police state, a system of surveillance and laws designed to keep black people under total control. A full compendium of those laws would run more than 3 ,000 pages and weigh approximately 10 pounds.

3:28But the general thrust of it should be easy enough for any American to understand. In America, you had the forced removal of the native onto reservations, coupled with slavery, followed by segregation. Now imagine all three of those things happening to the same group of people at the same time. That was apartheid. That was apartheid. That's a beautiful explanation. Yeah. That's really what it was. It was perfect and studied racism. You know, which is, it's disappointing sometimes when you realize how far some people will go, what lengths people will go to to oppress other people. I always think to myself, with all of that talent, you know, I think of my high school teachers, they'd be like, if you just applied yourself, young man, You could do so many good things for the world.

4:13I think of how many amazing things they could have done with South Africa with that same... Because apartheid was an evil genius plan. It's amazing in its insidious nature, and that's really what it was all about. And so you were literally born a crime. Right, right. Born a crime. It was illegal for a European to cohabitate, to be, have sex. Yes, to have carnal intercourse or interaction with any person of another race. And that was a law? Yes. And it was a law that if you were a black person, you could not be... Right. Yeah. Right. Everyone was separated. And so black and white and even smaller groups within race.

4:51You know, in America, oftentimes it's just black and white when the discussion is had. But in South Africa, they were meticulous. So it's black and white. Within black, black was divided into all different tribes. And those tribes were separated from one another. And then even within different races, like Asian people separates Japanese, a different class to Chinese and Indian, a different class to other types of Asian. And this was a system designed to make sure that every group was small and oppressed in a different way. That's right. And speaking different languages so nobody could communicate.

5:20Right. Yes. And you, when you were a little boy, they had to hide you. Which is something I didn't know, by the way. That's like one of the most fascinating things. That's why I always credit my mother, my grandmother, my family, because we take for granted when, like as adults, the ability we have to shape the view of the world our children have. They were hiding you to save you from yourself because you could have been taken away from them. Yeah, and I didn't know this. Yes. Imagine this. I'm a little kid growing up. They just tell me sometimes to go and hide under the bed. In my world, I go, I have the coolest parents in the world.

5:55Sometimes I go hide, and then I come out. And then only when I'm writing the book does my grandmother tell me, oh, yes, we hid you under the bed, Trevor. We hid you because the police would come, and if they found you, then they would take you away. So we had to hide you." And I'm like, how did I not know this my entire life? And my gran goes, you never asked. Really? And explain why they had to hide you. Well, because I was evidence of my parents' crime. So here's the fundamental problem with racism is that it's an idea that is defeated over and over again by people contradicting what people have been told.

6:29And that is black and white cannot mix, colors cannot mix, And when people mix, they prove that it can happen. They prove that you can have beautiful children. They prove that love can cross color boundaries. And so now a person like me is a product that creates a murky world. So the police would take a child like me. My skin tone is called colored in South Africa. And so colored would be removed into a colored community. So I couldn't be the child of a black woman, couldn't be the child of a black person, because by the law I was superior to a black person. But I couldn't be with a white parent either, because by the law, you know, the white person was superior to me.

7:05And so you would have to keep each person in their group to maintain a system that truthfully doesn't make sense. So how do you figure out who you are? You tell a beautiful story of the time you were sent to this Model C school, I think it was. Right, right. And they say to you, you're going to be in this Class A. Right. Right? Okay, explain that. You know the hardest thing growing up in life, and it's funny, identifying who you are is one of the toughest things you go through as a human being, regardless of the world around you. I mean, just growing up when you were a child, who are you? You know, how do you see your gender?

7:35How do you see your personality? How do you see everything you are as a human being? And now compound that with a state that has defined you in a way that doesn't match with the world you're exploring. I lived in a world where the only people I saw were black around me. And because I don't walk around with a mirror, I only saw myself as the people around me. That was the mirror for my world. So you didn't see yourself as a light-skinned person? No, I just saw myself as somebody... I was Trevor. Yeah. That's all I knew myself as. And in the family, no one said, come here, light-skinned kid. They were like, it's Trevor.

8:06You know? So you grow up - But it never occurred to you that, oh, my skin is lighter than theirs? Oh no, kids would say it, but that's the same way they would talk about a fat kid or a skinny kid or a tall kid or a short kid. It was a characteristic of yours. Okay. And so it was also never something that people used to exclude me growing up in the township. That was the fun thing is we grew up in the hood and kids would tease you about what you had. And in a weird way, it was them going, we recognize you, we see you. And now let's play together. And so for the first time, I was lucky when Apartheid ended, my mother got a bursary for me to go to a private school.

8:39And in the private school, it was the first generation of mixed kids. Bursary is like a scholarship. Like a scholarship, yeah. And so I was one of the first generation of kids to be in a mixed environment. And so I thought that that was the world. I thought everyone was the same. We were all given school uniforms. We all had the same reading materials. So nobody had a class. Was this your first time around white people? No, because of my dad, church. These are places where I had seen white people, I experienced white people. But you didn't experience them as white people. Exactly. You used to experience your dad as your dad.

9:10Exactly. Not as a white person as a dad. And that's a strange world to be introduced to, is when for the first time, you start to learn about how races interact with each other and how races treat one another in a country. And that happened to me when I went to my first public school, when the teacher said to me, these are your tests to come into the school. These are your marks. You should go to this class. I went to the class. It was only white kids. And I didn't think it was abnormal until I went to recess. And then there was a flood of black children that came out of nowhere. And I was like, where are you guys from?

9:43And they were like, oh, we're in another class. And I was like, well, I feel like I want to be in that class. I understand your languages. I connect. Where the hell are you? And then my teacher said to me, you can't go to that class because that's not the smart class. You want to be in the class you're in. And she said, if you go there, the rest of your life may not go in the direction you want it to. And I chose to go into the black class, and I'm sitting next to Oprah now. So... You have your own daily show!

10:13No, when I read that in the book, I mean, you've got to have that teacher on your show. I should, actually. You're right. You've got to do that. You've got to bring that teacher, You got to open the book, you got to read from that page, and then you got to say, come on out, Mrs. And sit in my seat on The Daily Show. Oh. Yeah, yeah. So in all of those years, the thing that really got me about this book, and I actually read a review of it that said, it's a love letter to your mother. Completely. I mean, you and your mom. First of all, your mom, she's a badass, man. Yeah. He is just... Just a badass warrior woman.

10:56To have said she, on purpose, intentionally wanted to have you, knew it was against the law, knew it was against the law to be with a white person, said, I'm gonna do it anyway. Right. Yes. And I'm gonna have this child, and I'm gonna raise this child the way I wanna raise this child. Right. Yeah. Most people would have a sign to protest government oppression. My mother had me. Um... And, you know, in telling my story in writing this book, I never thought it was about my mom. I think most of us believe that we're the heroes of our story. And in writing the story, I realized that I was my mother's punk-ass sidekick.

11:32I... You know, I... I genuinely... I didn't set out to write it about my mother at all. I just... I was telling my story. And it's funny how you sit down, and then you come to realize the people in your life who have shaped you and who play a big role in who you are. And I can't deny that my mother was that person for me who stood up at a time when many people were afraid to stand up, when a country was being punished for standing up, And she said, no, as a woman and as a black person, I will live the way I believe I'm allowed to live, whether you tell me I can or not. And she did that, and so because of that, she's the example that I lived my life by without realizing the consequences.

12:05And that, for me, is one of the most gangster human beings you can shape yourself by. Oh, yeah, your mom's gangster.

12:13So this, I thought, on page 73, was one of the greatest tributes. You said, the highest rung of what's possible... Listen, y 'all, the highest rung of what's possible is far beyond the world you can see. My mother showed me what was possible. The thing that always amazed me about her life was that no one showed her. I know y 'all like that part. No one chose her. She did it on her own. She found her way through sheer force of will. An amazing gangster mom. And she had this crazy Volkswagen beat-up car. Yeah. My mom till this day refuses to buy a new car, refuses to live in the world of money, refuses...

13:06She just does her own thing. She has, like, her little garden in the backyard. She raises chickens. She lives... She just goes to church. She is... You're the only person I've interviewed that I can remember who's a famous person who grew up poorer than I did. I mean, the fact that we could talk outhouses, I mean, it's pretty good. That's insane, right? It's insane, yeah. And that's a weird experience that not many people can understand fully, is, like, growing up with an outhouse. Like, it's just a hole in the ground. You do your thing. It's a humbling experience, and I also... It's like bungee jumping.

13:35I'm glad I did it, but I don't want to do it again. That is true. Do you know what I mean? But I loved, on the first night of your show, you were saying the two things you didn't think were possible. This is a habit. Yeah. But the truth is, doesn't it make... How many bathrooms do you have now? How many, I have two, three, three. Three bathrooms. Yeah, three, that's just in America. I've got like, I've got like three more back home. I'm balling, Oprah. Balling, go. I'm balling out of control right now. Every time, every time, I think I've got five in my house right now, five, sorry. Well, you're Oprah.

14:06Okay, I got five. But every time, I mean, there are moments still when I'm in the bathroom and that whole like being able to flush it and it's right there and blah, blah, blah, it's all of it. It's fantastic. All of it. Isn't it? People think this is a joke, but like, here's the thing as well. My grandmother. The outhouse is the thing you never forget. Yeah. First of all, you never forget the smell. No. You just can't never forget. Because it doesn't go away. There's no flushing. Yeah. There's no, it's just, it's perpetually existing. What you did yesterday will be told to you today. Like, it's always there.

14:36It always, and your family stories are told to you as well. It's just, you exist in a, but like. And you had a fear of going to the outhouse. I always thought I was gonna fall in. Yes, you think you're gonna fall in. You're gonna fall in, and God knows that. I heard stories of people falling in. People always said someone fell in, and I was like, I don't know who fell in, but I believe the story. You fell in. Yes, yes. And here's the thing, my grandmother still lives in the same house we grew up in, and now we've converted the outhouse into a flushing toilet, which she's... My grandmother insists on keeping outdoors because she likes it, because she doesn't like the idea of a toilet that's indoors.

15:08She goes like, that's ridiculous. Why would I want that happening inside my house? So when I go to my grandmother's house, I'm like, it's completely the same thing, the same door, the same world that I experienced because my grandmother's like, no, I love this. Okay, so what I also love is that you talk in the book about the black tax. Yes. That white people don't know nothing about, but black people have a black tax because you're expected to explain the black tax. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. And this is one of the hardest conversations to have with people is like, you know, oftentimes we get into conversations, especially today, where white people will say, not all, but white people will have a conversation where they say, I don't understand why a black person feels so oppressed.

15:47We've lived the same lives. We've grown up the same way. Yes, I understand maybe your parents were oppressed, but now you're free. So what's the issue? And then what you come to realize is, apart from traces of systematic or systemic oppression that still exist, there is also one underlying issue, and that is the devastation that impacted your generational family. Like, those are things that you take for granted. Even if you say, well, my grandfather wasn't rich. I got nothing from him. Yeah, but you got opportunity. You got knowledge. You got ideas. You got things that many black families were robbed of.

16:21And so, what happens is... I think that's so important. You know, I've done hundreds of shows over the years of The Oprah Show. And I remember actually being in an audience talking about race. And a white woman said exactly that to a black guest. I didn't do it to you. Why should I still feel bad? Because I didn't do it to you. That was your grandmothers and great grandmothers. And I was trying to do exactly what you just did. Explain, what if your grandmother had never been allowed to work as anything other than a maid? What if your grandfather could never find a job? What if nobody in your family was ever treated like they were a full human being?

16:54Wouldn't that have any impact at all on you? Do you think you would have felt any of that? So that's what you're saying. And essentially, you know what, the best way I, it's funny, it happened the other day when I was watching a documentary on Hurricane Sandy in New York and in New Jersey, and I was looking at the effects. And after the hurricane hit, people were devastated. Businesses were demolished. And the government stepped in and said, we will give you subsidies, we will give you low-interest loans, we will help you get back on your feet. Because the people understood that that devastation needed to be corrected.

17:28And so if that has happened to a people, if there has been a hurricane of racism that has obliterated people, Wouldn't you then need to come back in and say, we will help you get back on your feet because you have lost everything. Recognize what happened to you. And essentially, that's what in many ways the black tax is, is that the first generation of success for many black people means you now have to go back and work on correcting everything. I have to get my brothers through school. I have to get my family through school. I have to get my younger cousins through school. I have to get... Because you are the first of an entire family to experience that success.

18:01And the greatest gift my mother gave me, and she always said it was, My son, I may not be able to give you one cent in this world, but I promise you I will not give you the black tax. That's the one thing I'll keep from you. I will handle it. You go and fly in the world. But you know, it's so interesting, because one of my girls, Mahal... Stand up. Hey, Mahal. Hi. Well, it's one of my daughters from South Africa. And I say this to the girls all the time, that that's going to be the greatest burden unless you free it from yourself. Right, right. That you get to decide what that tax should be. Right.

18:31Nobody else gets to tell you, because just the fact that you can free yourself, that is what your ancestors would have wanted for you. There's also a guilt attached with it. And that's something my mother learned the hard way, is she had to go on a journey where she left the family because she realized she needed to build before she could give back. And sometimes, as human beings, we exist in a space, and this is beyond race, where we have people who need from us, and we haven't built for ourselves yet. And you cannot give what you do not have. And so sometimes you have to build for yourself. now.

19:03It's true though. You cannot give what you do not have. Preach Trevor, preach. You know if you build it for yourself first, then you can give it to others. Thank you. You're so right about that. I just want to know, because I kept waiting in the book for you to tell us how you ended up on The Daily Show. How did that happen to you? That was one of the most surreal experiences ever. I was for the first time touring the world. I had just started touring in the UK and I was doing comedy in the world, which was a lifelong dream for me. And I was walking through Harrods. I'll never forget this. It's a crazy store where they sell everything that nobody can afford.

19:39Most of us cannot afford. And so I was walking around looking at just crazy things in the world and my phone rings and it's an American number and I answer and the voice on the other side says, hi, can I speak to Trevor Noah? And I said, speaking. And the voice said, hi, this is Jon Stewart. And I said, yes, because I'm not thinking it's the Jon Stewart. It's like if I got called by someone and said I'm Oprah, I'd be like, Oprah Stevenson, Oprah. I'm not just gonna jump to like, of course, Oprah, hello, yes, Oprah. I don't know which Jon Stewart is calling me. And so I said, Jon Stewart, I said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm Jon Stewart.

20:11I host The Daily Show in America, you may have heard of. I was like, yeah, of course I've heard of the show. And he said, well, I've seen your comedy and I'm a big fan of yours. Where had he seen your comedy? On YouTube. On YouTube. Yeah, and then he said, hey, I was wondering if you ever come to America, would you like to pop into the show and hang out? I think you'd like what we do and maybe we could hang out and... You said, I'm gonna be there next Tuesday. And funny enough, no, I said no. You said no! Yeah, like I said, this is the greatest moment of my life, but I've worked so hard to get what I have in the UK.

20:40These people have bought tickets. This is the most important thing that's ever happened to me. Thank you, but no. And he paused and he said, are you seriously saying no? And I said, yeah, but I'm... Thank you. But thank you, but no. Was he asking you to leave? Yeah, well, I knew that I would have to cancel my tours. I'd have to go to the US. I'd have to. And I was like, no, I've worked for this. I've worked for these people. I don't take my fans for granted. I respect that. I respect that. And so I did that. And John said, well, when you ever do come to New York, look me up and let's hang out.

21:10And I did that a year and a half later. A year and a half later. That's pretty amazing. That's pretty amazing. That reminds me of a story. Well, I won't tell it here. About Sidney Poitier. Winnie. Okay, no, it's not even about me. It's a story about character. I mean, I hadn't heard that story that you're just telling. And that is the sign of true character. And I remember early on doing an interview with Sidney Poitier where he had told of really wanting to be in the film industry. And he'd gone to audition for this role. He was making less than a dollar an hour as a dishwasher. and this role was going to pay him$700 a week.

21:55Wow. And it was the role of a janitor, which he said he didn't have problems being a janitor, but the janitor's daughter gets murdered and the daughter is thrown out onto the lawn. And he said he wouldn't do anything his father wouldn't have done. And he wouldn't take the role because he thought it would bring dishonor to his father, to play a father who would allow his daughter to be thrown out on the lawn. So he turned down the role. Wow. Turned down the role. And after he left, the guy says, who is that guy that would turn down that role? And that guy ended up being his agent for over 50 years after that.

22:36But it's a sign of character to say, even though I got the call that most people wait for their entire lives, I have a responsibility and a respect for my fans. And I won't take the call. I didn't. Right. That's really good. Your mama raised a really good son. It's really good. Thank you. So, were you surprised when they said, we want you now to step in and do it? I was, I was surprised because I, in my world I had no chance, but I come from a world where there was no chance. So every chance I've taken is the one that's impossible. I always say to people, why do the possible thing? It's boring if you succeed.

23:12Like do the impossible thing, because if you don't get it right, people are like, you weren't gonna get it right. And if you do, you did the impossible. And so for me, it was like, yeah, I'll throw my name in. and if I don't get The Daily Show, I was never meant to get The Daily Show, but if I get it, this is something that I would have never dreamed of doing. And so they called me. I was doing shows in Dubai, and I got a phone call, and they said, hey, we've looked through everyone. We've gone through all our decisions. Would you like to be the host of The Daily Show? And if I wasn't sitting down, I would have fallen over.

23:37I would have fainted. It was mind-blowing, and I couldn't get alcohol because I was in Dubai. I was just like, I'm so happy. You know? It was everything. It really was. Yeah. And what is your intention with a show every night? It's not just about the funny. I think in many ways it is about the funny for me, but it's how I see the funny that defines the show. So I've come to realize, and this is partly by speaking to great comedians who have been mentors and friends in my life, you know, the likes of Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock and Eddie Murphy and reading about Richard Pryor and Dick Gregory, people who said to me, the truth is where the funny lies.

24:15tell the truth and that's where you'll find the funniest jokes and so for me in pursuing the funny i pursue the truth and if i find the truth then the funny will marry with that and so in creating the show i'm somebody who loves engaging in the news i love discussing ideas i love engaging in conversation and in debate and so every good time oh yeah i love it every single day you can see you're having a good time every single day is a journey for me and for me it's the purpose of the show is to engage in the news in a manner that is critical in its thoughts, to think about what's happening, process it, react to it, and most importantly, give it the respect that it deserves whilst not also giving it the power to completely control your emotional state.

25:00Absolutely. I read where you said you believe we've reached a tipping point of outrage and injustice. That's pretty profound coming from somebody who's lived through apartheid. Well, it's worrying when you look at what's happening in America, you know, and in some parts of the world as well. But America is getting to a place where it feels like it is extremely divided along partisan lines. And conversations have shifted to a point where human beings no longer see a human being on the other side of this discussion. and it's tough to say that one side should be empathetic towards the other side when the other side doesn't see them as human beings.

25:43And that's a fundamental breakdown that seems to be happening in America. And you can't deny, and this is my thing, is I tell people all the time, they go like, oh, if you hate America, why? I'm like, yeah, I never said I hate, I love it, if I didn't love it, I wouldn't be here. This is a great place, I enjoy America. I love Americans, I have a great time. Having an issue with Donald Trump doesn't make me unique because every Republican saw it before he was in office. You know? And so if, as you said, going back to character, if your character shifts depending on who's in power, then was it your character to begin with?

26:16That's the way I see it. So...

26:23So I don't think in this instance, and I mean, there are many people who are considering themselves conservatives who till this day go, no, this party I don't recognize, this man I do not recognize, and I cannot go with this because he does not espouse my views that I have proclaimed for such a long time. And so I think anyone who's honest in that sphere understands that it's not about partisan anything. It's about seeing what you see, pointing it out, and speaking your truth. Do you feel you hit a stride? You know, it's interesting. I listened to your podcast about when you were creating your show.

26:54And when you're creating a show, especially when it's daily, there are moments where you feel like you... I always feel like I've hit my stride in moments after a break. Like, I'll go away for two weeks, and then we come back and kick off the show, and it's almost like this muscle memory that works without me trying. Yeah. But I don't ever think that I've hit my stride. It's very much like an athletic event. You're always trying to be better. You're always not sad. It's interesting. So by stride, I mean, do you think you've found your way? I think I've reshaped how I've seen the show, because when I first started The Daily Show, and when I took over the seat from Jon Stewart, I had an idea of what I wanted the show to be.

27:28I've now come to realize that I am existing and the show is existing as an organism in a world that is constantly changing And so I cannot give it a concrete definition because the world around it is constantly shaping how it reacts Okay So if anything, I wish for the show to be like water It should be moving with the same force as it moves through ideas and conversations And sometimes the show will be a vessel for me to express my catharsis and the catharsis of the people watching Sometimes it's a place for us to enjoy laughter Sometimes it's a place for us to learn something new. I think it's about finding an authentic way to express a point of view in and around what the news is every single day.

28:06That's what I'm trying to do on the show. But I've come to realize there is no fixed point. I'm sailing in a direction, aiming for true north, but it's shifting with the tide, and you're constantly trying to keep the boat where it needs to go versus where you thought it should go. You got it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That is it. That is it. Let it guide you because it's bigger than you. Exactly. And you are there to be used by it, and so you allow it to take you where it needs to go. It is my great pleasure and delight to meet you. Thank you so much. Great pleasure and delight. Trevor Noah, born of time, get the book.

28:47Thank you so much. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

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