Super Soul Summer: Pastor Wintley Phipps Becoming the Person You Were Created To Be

0:00Hey there, podcast listeners. I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in addition to Super Soul Conversations. It's called Oprah's Masterclass. The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures, and athletes in their own words. Listen as Jay-Z, Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O 'Neal, Reba McIntyre, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class.

0:44Oprah's Masterclass Podcast is available now on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcast.com slash Oprah's Masterclass. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Wendley Phipps is an ordained minister who has lectured on six continents and sang for six United States presidents. He's also the founder of the U.S. Dream Academy, a program that has mentored thousands of children who have family members in jail or prison.

1:36Wendley has written your best destiny, becoming the person you were created to be. So I've known you, what, 35 years now? 35 years. And you have been a spiritual, what would you call your role in my life, I know? Oh. Encourager. A spiritual encourager for me. From the very beginning. From the very beginning. So I think you were singing in Baltimore. Singing in Baltimore at the Civic Center. At the Civic Center. I remember coming down off the platform and there was a tap on my shoulder. Yeah. And you were there and you said, excuse me, sir. I just heard you sing and I feel like I can talk to you.

2:19Oh. Do you have time to talk to me? I said, sure. And we made arrangements and you came by our home. Yeah. And then I remember encouraging, praying, and then I said, you know, before you go, God has impressed me to tell you. Yes, your famous words. He's going to bless you and give you an opportunity to speak to millions of people. And you said, do you really think God would do that for me? I do remember that. So I remember saying to you, you know, when God impressed me to tell you that you'll be speaking to millions of people, I didn't think it was going to be every day. Because this was when I was in Baltimore.

3:01I was, you know, a frustrated news reporter. I didn't love the job. I didn't feel it was a calling, but I had my father's voice in my ear saying, you're never going to have a job like that one. They're paying you$25 ,000. You're making$25 ,000 and you're 25. You're never going to have a job like that one. So I was like, this doesn't feel like it's it for me. So when you said that, I held on to the hope of that, but I had no idea what that really meant. Yeah. You know, it was like a prophecy. It's a prophecy. And you have been that prophet, spiritual leader my whole life. So I thank you for that.

3:40Oh, that's very humbling. I just want to share with you, our Super Soul audience, you know, Wendley has been one of the main people I go to for prayer, for counsel. I have my prayer counsel team. Maya Angelou was on that team, too, was a big leader in that team. But over the years, whenever you have sent me a note or a letter and said, God has impressed me to tell you, I go, God has impressed you to tell me. And a couple of times it's been really scary. A couple of times it's been really scary. So, you know, I have my whole Wintley file. I keep a Wintley file. Here are some of my favorites from 7-3-11.

4:21It's about your bright future. Oprah, you say, as I thought about you today and prayed for you, I was impressed to share with you that your days ahead are brighter and more fulfilling than you have ever dreamed. Because God never shuts one door without opening another that is more glorious and more fulfilling than the last. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. I love this. So you were writing this to me. This was shortly after I'd ended the show. Yeah. I'd ended the show in May, and this is July 3rd. Oprah, it's always agonizing waiting for the cake you're baking to rise, especially when you want to eat it right away.

5:02This is when I was going through all that own stuff. And just because you turn up the temperature of the oven doesn't mean the cake will bake any faster. I feel like right now God has you in your beautiful plane circling the airport. You're waiting for some things to be clear. You're waiting for the fog to lift. The runway, aren't you impressed with yourself? Listen, the runway is still there. Your blessings still await you. Oprah, God is readying you and readying your destiny for you. And in that perfect moment, the fog will lift and a bright light from heaven will point the way to the success that awaits you and the success you're dreaming of.

5:43Hello. Yes, you wrote that to me on July 3rd. So you've always been in prayer for me. Yes. And you're one of those people who says that you pray without ceasing, which means you are constantly in a state of prayer. What does that mean? Well, you know, a lot of people see life as a symphony of activity punctuated by those interlude moments of prayer. I think you need to turn that on its head and see life as a symphony of communion with God, punctuated by distractions. And once the distractions are over, go back. Go back to that symphony. Yeah. And so... It's the same thing as living in the present moment.

6:36Exactly. But living in that space that is always God-like. Oh, absolutely. And then you have those moments where an audible prayer is almost forced out of your spirit. I tell people also that God is so awesome. He has created access to himself, not based upon merit, but need. And so whenever you feel that need, prayers come out of you if you allow them to. Is it a ritual for you, like you get up in the morning and you pray? I would say it is a little bit of ritual, but a whole lot of lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah, you know, in other words, it's... Because what I say, and some people take offense to, I say, God isn't to be believed as much as God is to be experienced.

7:34Yes. God wants us to experience. That's right. It's almost as though when God walks into a room that the molecular makeup of the room changes. And you sense and feel a holiness. You sense and feel a presence that you don't feel in the mundane movements of life. So to you, is God a he? Is God a it? Is God an all-encompassing, unknown mystery? Is God a... What is your definition? Well, to me, God is the one and only. He is the one and only creator. He's the one and only source of life and consciousness, eternal consciousness and awareness. I don't believe God has gender. I believe God is a spirit.

8:30But I do understand that so that we could understand his character and what he's really like, Jesus taught us to look at him as a loving father. Uh-huh. So this is what's so interesting. You know, for years I've had conversations, prayer over the phone, tears, crying, holding hands, joyous moments with you. And all through all these years I've said to you, you know, you should take this message and you should put it in a book form. Yes. And now you finally have done it. Right. And you've done the thing that, you know, spoke so strongly to me. Because in some of our earlier conversations, you were speaking to me.

9:13I think I have a note from you about that. You were telling me that God has for all of us, you were telling me, that there was a supreme moment of destiny. Yes, yes, yes. Tell me about that. You know, all along, like you, I look at your life and I look at my own life. We have been chasing moments of destiny. You know, when the things that you dream of as a kid and you watch them come to reality, those are moments of destiny. But then I began to realize that, and God showed me that moments of destiny are moments for which you were created, but they're not the reason for which you were created. The reason for which we were created is to grow every day, to more resemble, reflect, and reveal the character of the one who created us.

10:11And so that's why I wrote the book. Yes. The experience of knowing him now and experiencing, you know, you and I are sitting here, but what we're feeling right now, we're not feeling the California air. We, there's a beauty, there's a sense, there's something that's giving me chills. There's something that is holy about our conversation and our time together. And I've learned to... Well, that's what I want this, quote, show to be, is to be a holy conversation that really turns out to be an offering to all of you who hear it. And, you know, the spirit in which it's offered is that it's a sacred conversation.

10:55Yeah. And what we're talking about here is aligning with that which is the reason why you really came. That's right. And that is pursuing whatever is your best destiny. Every person who pursues that with the idea to resemble, reveal, and reflect that which is the character of your Creator. Absolutely. You are then on the right path. Absolutely. And whether you are tall or short, whether you are poor or wealthy, you can achieve the destiny for which you were created. Ah, which is what we're all trying to do. Right. And at the end... How can you miss it, though? Doesn't everyone get the destiny that they were created for?

11:41Well, most people don't even know about it. I mean, I didn't. Like I told you, I was pursuing the accomplishments. I thought that was the destiny. I was chasing, you know, the accolades. I thought, oh, so you were the first gospel artist on Soul Train. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I was. You do have the most incredible voice I've ever... Oh, thank you. Thank you. ...experienced. I mean, nobody in the world sings Amazing Grace like you do. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. Nobody in the world sings it. Thank you. Thank you. Every time I hear somebody sing, I go, eh, that's okay. It's not Wintley. Eh, that's okay.

12:21And the best version I ever heard was out here on my front lawn for Legends. The Legends one. Yes, yeah. That's right. So tell me about the moment when you walked in and there was Sly Stone. Because Sly Stone was an idol, right? Yes, yes, yes. Well, you know, growing up in the 60s, you know, thank you for letting me be myself. Be myself again. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was, Sly was hotter than sliced bread. And I wanted to meet Sly so badly. I was growing up in Montreal, living in Montreal. He was coming to Montreal to do a concert. And I said, I got to meet him. So I get there, limo pulled up, and I'm standing there just to get a glimpse of my musical hero.

13:07And they were dragging him out of the limo. And they took him into the locker room and poured a shower, cold water on him. And I said, okay, if this is where this path takes you, I don't think I want to go that road. Really? In that moment? In that moment. So at 16 years old, I did something probably very unusual for a 16-year-old kid. I got down on my knees and I said, God, it was the first time I ever really prayed. I said, whatever you want me to do, I'll do. You talk about surrender. And then I said, you know, I'd like to travel and use my talents for you. And if that's your will for me, open the doors.

13:58Let me see in some way. and I tell you ever since that prayer, it has been an amazing ride. There's nowhere in the world I could have ever wanted to go. No one, here I am, blessed to be able to call you friend. And so I tell people, be careful how you pray, you know, because what you're praying for might come to pass. But key here, and this is one of the key elements in your best destiny, and I have found this to be true also, that key to serving and honoring what your destiny, your calling is, is being able to surrender. That's one of the key elements. Absolutely. And that's what happened to me at 16.

14:44You know? And so I'm hearing in my head, at 16, I've seen your dreams. Now give me your dreams. and I will let you see a glimpse of what I've been dreaming for you. Let me tell you, God is the ultimate dreamer. And when he dreams, he also dreams about us. He dreams about you. He dreams about me. And the most amazing thing that can happen in the life of a human being is to catch a glimpse of what God's been dreaming for you. But the most beautiful thing that God dreams for us is for us to love like Him, to be kind like Him, to have faith, to have virtue. To resemble, reflect, and reveal the character of God.

15:44That's his most beautiful dream for each and every one of us. You say in the beginning of your best destiny, whatever led you to this point, you now realize you're not moving, you're not growing, you're unsatisfied in seeking more. But more what? Don't you find that most people don't know what the more is? That's right. Yeah. That's right. My hunch is, you say, that you're after something rewarding, something transforming, something lasting, something that blows away old definitions of success and replaces them with the truth you feel at the center of your soul. How do we get there? Well, the first thing, you know, you have to examine your life.

16:26That's very, very important. You know, a lot of people don't like to look at themselves. Yeah. But you don't progress unless you really... What is that beautiful quote about an unexamined life? It's not worth living. Yes. Yes. And even in the scriptures, it says, examine yourself. Yeah. Because you don't get progress, you don't get healing, until you first examine yourself. You don't get better unless you assess, diagnose, prescribe, and implement corrective measures in any area of life. If your knee is hurting, if your back is hurting. And let me tell you where I learned this. I realized from my dream academy, I did not know whenever a child in America receives a bad grade from a teacher, almost never, ever is the bad grade handed back to the kid with help, with tutorials, with corrective instruction to fix the problem.

17:19Well, we have a situation when it comes to character, there are almost no resources that help us to determine and assess, ah, here's where I need to grow. And you say here on page 22 that we resemble God when we take in the ideals, attitudes, and attributes of our Creator and make them our own. We reflect this image when we notice our changing ethos emerging in our behavior. We reveal God to the world when people around us see the image of God in our lives. Because, yeah, I love this. When we acquire his character, we acquire the power to have a positive impact, not just for our own lives, but also on those of everyone around us.

18:04So it means walk the walk. Yes. Live it. Yes. Not just talk it. Yeah. You know, a lot of organizations, spiritual, religious organizations, they focus on what I call the three Bs. Yeah. Believing. Yeah. Belonging. Yeah. You belong with us, you know? Behaving. Yeah. You know, you're behaving. And all that's very important. But they leave out that last one, becoming. Ooh. Becoming like God. But wait a minute. belonging, behaving, believing, must be a prelude to becoming what he created you to be. That's, to me, your greatest, the greatest destiny we could ever have. Wintley realized his own best destiny through his extraordinary work with the Dream Academy.

18:5820 years ago, while performing for prison inmates and their families, Whitley had an epiphany. He could see the hope it washed from the children's eyes. And today, there are 10 academies that help children transcend their circumstances and reach for a different life. Now, what's interesting about what you mentioned about the Dream Academy, you realize that these children whose parents have been in jail, been gone to prison, and their parents were in prison, that there is a cycle of... Yeah, they call it an intergenerational cycle of incarceration because by the age of 30, for example, 60 % of all black boys in America who haven't graduated from high school will be in prison.

19:53But we also found that... 60 %? Absolutely. 60 % of every black boy in this country that doesn't graduate from high school by the age of 30 will be in prison. Wow. So it's a predictor. Lack of education is a major predictor. Major predictor. And this is also very significant, that 60, sometimes 70 percent, it depends on the neighborhood and the community, of the kids who end up in prison come from the children of those who are in prison. Because when you have a situation where you're growing up without guidance and without a father, there's that father wound. Yes. Oh, yeah. Which runs deep. who runs deep.

20:40Runs deep. And there's something I share, there's something about a male child, particularly when he hears a male voice. Right. Something comes to attention in a child's heart and psyche. Yeah. It doesn't come when mama says, stop that boy. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So that wound is not actually going to get fixed until we fix our communities and fix the families. Yes. Yeah. And all we can do, we tutor and we mentor because when you don't have a strong family network around you, you need that person, that someone or group of people who can come alongside you and say, you know, you're going to be somebody.

21:22Yes, yeah. Oh. You need somebody to believe. Oh, absolutely. To actually even be able to see it. And it's so wonderful when you see them being transformed, when you see them changing their, oh, it's like the light bulb goes on. Yeah. You know, oh, I can have a different life. Yes. You know, and it's wonderful when you can say, oh, now that I can, that I'd like to be. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we show kids, and it's a great thing to see them grow and become all that they've been dreaming of inside. Yeah. So does everyone have a best destiny? There's a destiny and then there's a best destiny. Does everyone have a best destiny?

22:07Yes. The best. Your supreme moment of destiny. Yeah. I love that. Yes, your best destiny really is the moment you most resemble, reflect, and reveal the character of God. That is your best destiny. And you believe, actually, that each one of us is called to greatness. You say that in your best destiny. That's really a tall order. I remember the first time I said that to Barbara Walters. People were like, what is she thinking that she's born to greatness? And I didn't mean land, square footage, cars, and riches. I meant exactly what you're talking about. Because my prayer has always been, God, use me.

22:50and then being able to, the power in my life came when I was able, when I learned how to surrender to God's will and not my own. It's not like there's some magic happening here other than I try to surrender to that will, which is not my own. And you say everybody's called to that, but how can everybody be called to greatness when people have different definitions of what greatness is? The word greatness for some people does mean power. For some people, it does mean fame. For most people, it does mean money. And you and I, and many people listening, have met a lot of people who have had that kind of greatness.

23:33But you know... Something's missing. Oh, not only is something missing, you come away saying, now wait a minute, there's got to be more to greatness than that. There's got to be more to greatness. I don't know. Oh, in this fame-oriented Facebook world where people only post their best photos, nobody posts, you know, this is a miserable day on Facebook. I don't know. I don't know if we're losing that. What do you think? Yeah, I think we are losing it, and I think that's what I'm hoping to bring people back around to, that they will sense there is something more beautiful to chase. So what are those characteristics that most reflect the character of God?

24:18You talk about those. For 20 years, I did study and research, and I came upon eight. Okay. Of the most powerful, they are things. There had to be more than eight. Yes, as a matter of fact, there are hundreds. But there are eight dimensions, he says. I really want you to have those. And they are faith. Yep. Virtue or moral goodness. Yep. Knowledge and wisdom. Mm-hmm. Patience. Knowledge and wisdom meaning you are constantly in a state of, as you say on page 80, learning, right? The best part of learning is that it teaches us where our knowledge ends and our ignorance begins. Absolutely. Yeah. And knowledge and wisdom go together.

25:02Yeah. The more knowledge you have, there are people who have knowledge and don't have wisdom. Yeah. And that's a terrible thing. Yeah. I know some. Yeah. I know some of those. Yeah. So then you have self-control. Yeah. The other is a respect for what is sacred. If you've got somebody who you want to come alongside or spend the rest of your life with, and the first thing they tell you is, look, there's nothing I hold sacred, that's not somebody you want to spend the rest of your life. What do you hold sacred? Yeah, that's good. That's a good question. What do you hold sacred? What do you hold sacred?

25:41Another is kindness. Kindness. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite stories is, and I presume it's a true story, Pocahontas was taken by Captain John Smith to England, and he was showing her off. And he asked her to marry him, and she asked for some time to think about it. And when they came back together, she said, I have only one question for you. Are you kind? Are you kind? Kindness. And then love. Those are critical dimensions, eight dimensions of character, that to reach your best destiny, you've got to seek to try to develop those. So which is really the pillar of character that people struggle the most with, do you think?

26:36Hmm. Well, I think love is the hardest one. Oh, yeah. People try to jump to love, but you've got to develop some others to get there. In other words, if you're going to really love somebody, that means you're going to have faith in them. If you're going to love somebody, you're going to have to have the integrity and the goodness. If you're going to love somebody, you have to learn to be patient with their strengths and with their weaknesses. My favorite definition that you give of love, you have it? Yes. Love is when you choose to be at your best when the other person is not at their best. And the second one is a lot more difficult.

27:28Love is when what you want is never important. but what the other person needs and wants is always paramount. And that's a hard one to do, but that's what true love is. Yeah. Is that how you've maintained 39 happy years? Yes, yes. In terms of 39 years, I tell folks... Happy years married, that's what I mean. Yes, 39 years happily married. I tell people I'm very grateful that in prayer I was able to find a woman of character. A woman of faith. A woman of virtue. A woman of patience. A woman who amazing self-control. A woman who is kind. a woman of love and a woman who has great respect for things that are sacred and I didn't I didn't know all about that back when I was 19 20 I just thought she was beautiful inside and out I think those those are very that's what you just did is really important for people because there's so many people who are on every kind of website looking for the right person and the descriptions they give are generally not, I want a person who knows how to hold something sacred, you know?

28:57Whoa. So, you know, there's descriptions that you hear people give. They're all kind of external and about experiences. I want a partner who likes to ski. I like a partner who likes to travel. I like a partner who likes to that. But it's those, it's the character that you're really looking for. Absolutely. Yeah. But what did you tell your sons? Three black sons. What did you tell them about how to move through the world? Because every, you know, I've said this to many of my white friends who didn't believe it until this year when they've seen the videotapes. You know, when you say this to white people who, you know, were not aware, they're like, oh, you're race sensitive, you think everybody, the police are out to get you.

29:44But I don't know a black family that's raised black boys that hasn't had the conversation. Oh, absolutely. You have the conversation. Matter of fact... What was your conversation? Well, I'll tell you this. I have some friends visiting from England, white friends. And my son was driving them home. Yeah. So a tire blows out. So my son pulls to the side. Yeah. And a police comes up. My son is getting out the car. and there are announcements. Put your hand where I can see him. And it was like, whoa. And so these folks are experiencing that. They're from England. They're saying, we didn't know. And the gentleman said, your son was wonderful.

30:30And I asked him, how did you handle that? And he said, well, my dad taught us. When you get pulled over, no quick moves. You know, keep your hands, you know, you give them that. But I will tell you, I think the best education that I've been able to give my sons is them watching how this black man has adored their mother. how this black man has treated their mother like she is the most important person that has ever walked the earth. That is, in other words, that's something I'm praying that they have picked up. What do you think is the root of racism? The root of racism is fear. And the root of fear is, I think, the rejection of what God created you to be.

31:36God didn't create us for fear. He didn't create us for fear. He didn't create us for anger. He didn't create us for all this negativity. What do you know about prayer? I know that when you bow your head and close your eyes with sincerity, that what you say is heard by God himself. What's the greatest truth you embrace in your daily life? That one day I will see the face of God. Can I say this? I have a dream that one day I'll be in heaven. working on my mansion with my holy hammer. And I hear a knock on the door. When I open it, Jesus will be standing there. And you'll say to me, My son, I'm about to go to some parts of my universe where they've never seen a child from earth who has been redeemed.

32:39And I want you to come go with me. Oh, and by the way, I want you to sing just before I speak. That's my dream. And what will you sing?

32:55Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me

33:20I once was lost But now I'm found Was blind But now I see

33:52Thank you. That was beautiful. Oh, my God. That is beautiful. Thank you, Winley. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.