Tina Turner: My Love Story, Part 2

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0:33Hi, it's Ashley from OWN. I used to think great work was about being in the right headspace. Then I found a TikTok video that made me think about my physical space. An interior designer explored how things like ceiling height and room size might influence how we think. Now I wonder how much of our environment shapes our work without us noticing. Now I'm looking at my workspace asking what kind of thinking I'm making room for. On TikTok, one idea can change how you see something you thought you knew. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.

1:09I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Welcome to part two of our conversation. But now you have a new wound. I mean, mothers don't expect to bury their children. They expect to be buried by their children. So when you heard of Craig's suicide, how did that impact you when you first heard it? Well, first of all, I didn't believe it because me and Craig's last talks were, Mother, I'm so happy. I'm really happy now. The next time he said, I've met a woman that I have never felt that way about for a very long time.

2:08This was our last two conversations. And the very last one was he said, hi, hi, Mother. I just want to hear your voice and that laugh. That one stuck out because he had never said that. I think that was his goodbye to me, but I didn't realize that until this happened. At the moment when Craig said, Tina, Craig is dead. He shot himself. Well, I didn't feel emotional or anything because I didn't believe it. There must be a mistake. And then after I sat up and said, tell me more, I don't get it. This somebody must be not playing a game because that doesn't, and it didn't make sense to me. And then after I found that it was Craig and whatever pushed him to that point, that was a reality.

2:59And then what made me emotional was the fact that he took a gun, shot himself in the head, and lay there for four days. That is what I still battle with. I'm still working with trying to find out why. After one week of telling me how happy he was, a woman in his life, a great job, had just decorated his apartment. What did it? And I haven't found out yet. But I haven't stopped. Was he prone to depression? Had he been depressed? Yes, he had from time to time alone. He was always alone because, you know, he never married. He never had children. And he always loved coming to see me every summer. And sometimes he would talk about the loneliness.

3:48And he was very shy and very introverted. And I never realized that he was suffering from all of this. He didn't talk to anybody about anything, Oprah. So how I handled it was, I have to get to the bottom of this. I want to find out what happened. So I made a few calls from Paris. And then when I got home, I got on the telephone. I talked to his brother, Ronnie. I talked to Rhonda. I talked to everyone that would know anything, anything at all about the scene at the house and whatever. I didn't mourn because he, I didn't mourn yet. Every now and then I would become emotional about something that he would say.

4:31But Oprah, he planned it. He bought the bullets one day. He wrote notes. He went and made a will three days before he shot himself. He wrote notes on who should get things that belong to him. And so this was something he definitely wanted to do. I talked to the Buddhist people here, and they said, actually, all of the years that he's been chanting, that attributes to life after death for the next life. And I hope that is the case because that is where he is now. But I couldn't believe that after his conversations to me that that is what he did. It still doesn't make sense. Have you talked to his girlfriend, the woman that he was so excited to be with?

5:16No, I talked to her tomorrow. And it looks like he didn't, she had been trying to reach him for a week and hadn't been able to reach him. But he wanted to give her his family ring, so I will give that to her tomorrow at the services and ask her some questions. I'm trying to get that. I'm investigating, Oprah. I'm really investigating, trying to find out. Not that I think I'm going to find anything, even if I have to go through psychics or therapists or whatever to try to come up with. You know what you just said earlier? When you're young, certain things follow you. Maybe something from Craig's childhood followed him through life and even interfered in his life when he was happy with a job and with a new apartment and maybe it was still heavy on him and he just couldn't handle it anymore.

6:12But I don't know if that's it. It seems that it should be more, but maybe not for him. So often when people die, especially when they die, tragically, all everybody wants to talk about is the death. Yes. But what you as a mother will remember is what he was in life to you. Yes. And so what is your fondest, most loving Craig memory? Well, first of all, Craig was always mother. Can I bring friends over for dinner? Mother, can I bring friends for swimming? He was always that kid that was active. And even after I moved to Europe, he brought all of his friends, every friend of his from one time to another, to wherever I was living in Europe.

7:05And I have one memory. I said that Craig always drove me nuts bringing his friends to Europe, but now I'm happy because I have a memory of every house and that he came every summer. So that's the poison that turned to medicine. There are some wonderful pictures. Every time he came that he took pictures. So I want to collect all of those pictures and look at those pictures now. There's not one, I think, except one in France. It was always him walking from the main house to the guest house. And I don't know why that one sticks in my mind, but that must have been one of those moments of being alone.

7:47Somehow there's something about that loneliness that I saw but I didn't know. Because some kind of way, by being always traveling, I didn't really know him. Once I said to him, Craig, you're shy. And he says, yes, mother. You know, like you haven't noticed, so to speak. But he was shy and introverted. And I'll always remember, we laugh, and the Buddhist monk was here today. He will do the eulogy at the sermon. but I decided to get one because I thought that he, as a Buddhist, would want one. And he was saying that he had some memories that he was sharing with me. So where do you think he is now?

8:31As a Buddhist, what do you believe happens to us when we die? This is what we discussed, and I kind of, I have to say I kind of believe it because I don't know it. When you chant, Oprah, and he started chanting when he was about 20, after he got out of the Navy. He was chanting strongly. So he was a Buddhist. In Buddhism, when you chant, it puts your mind into a certain, the Nam-myoho-renge-kyo puts you in a state of mind. That takes you through the journey of life. whatever was bothering him that chanting helped him to pass into the life to another life this lifetime i think next lifetime it'll be easier but according to buddhism you have to come back and do the same life over it until you get it right but i believe with the practice that and how devoted he was to his practice that it will be made easier than this life that's what i feel I think he is in a good place.

9:34I think he will probably have to suffer a bit, but not as much as this lifetime. You write in the book that when you started to pay attention to matters of the spirit and the soul, you could feel the chains lifting and that chanting removed the uncomfortable attitudes from your thoughts. So in the quiet of your own soul, what have been the most powerful revelations that have come to you, either through chanting or through your understanding of the spirit? Wisdom. I think I've become wise. I find myself very analytical, more so than I did in the past. I feel the change is a knowing. It's something in your self-instinct or maybe something else they can call it, but that happened in my 30 years of chanting, being able to take things apart and get truth out of it.

10:39And that's the first thing I did when I found out that Craig was gone. I stopped first and said, what happened? First thing I have to do is find out what happened. That is what you become when you practice Buddhism compared to all of the years. And I didn't let the Lord's Prayer go until I was in my 30s. And that was when I started chanting. And I still didn't let it go for a long time. But Buddhism worked more on my mind. And that is what the change is. And I call it wisdom. It's wisdom. It's wisdom. Hi, it's Ashley from OWN. This episode is sponsored by Dispatches from the Divide, a new limited series podcast.

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12:49So you write about this moment, too. First of all, you talk about how important it is for everybody to have a song in their own heart and find their own. You talked about your grandmother having them hum in her own spirit. and you say every one of us has our own song in our heart. Do you believe that? Yes, I have one now. It's just coming, and it's not what my grandmother had. It's another one, but it's new. It just doesn't come because I'm talking to you and want to tell you what it is. It's another one from the soul. It's from, I don't know where the soul is in the body, but it's of the being, and we do.

13:37We all have one, And that one is what makes us quiet and soothes us in those heavy moments. We all have it, but you have to work towards it. That is part of that wisdom that you acquire through the years, through the time that I have practiced Buddhism and the time that I'm nearly 80 years old now, and I think I've reached, and I say think because there's some little doubts around the corners that I still question, but I'll find the answer. I know I will because I believe I will. What are you still questioning at Almost 80? Little things of saying, am I sure? For instance, let's just make a question on Craig to say was it his health, was it his being alone, was it his introvertedness or shyness?

14:36this is all speculation. So you say, you question that. You think it's that, but you know within yourself it might not be either. So you question yourself, and then you work on finding it, if you can, until you can find something that make you quiet. Yeah. I think. So are you even at peace? Because I speak to you the day before you're going to your son's cremation. Is he going to be cremated? He's cremated already because he laid there and so his body started to decompose and I definitely wouldn't show him in that state. Yes, it's tomorrow. How am I? Yes. Well, I went from France to Germany, did a little bit of work on the phone about what happened and all.

15:26Then we went to the country house in Germany. It's quiet. I had a lot of time to become emotional about thoughts and still wondering what it was or what it is. And then because I knew that when I arrived here, I wanted to really have something concrete in my hand that made me think why he did it. Or when I talked to the monk, what I want him to say. I don't want it to be a sad one. I want it to be something uplifting because I understand that Craig had an honorable discharge as well from the Navy. And I want to bring out the good parts and parts that he enjoyed in the life. And that is I'm prepared now that when everybody starts to sniffle and cry and feel bad, I want the people to know that Craig was ready.

16:20He planned this over. He bought the bullies. He left the notes. And he was ready to do this. and he went and stood in the mirror and boom. So you have to be ready when that happens. That keeps me from being sad about it because it was something he wanted. Oh, I see. I see. It helps. It helps the sadness. It helps to kind of push it away from you. It won't leave for a while because I'm receiving so much stuff that I'll have a little shrine in the beginning for a while. But I feel less heavy. I won't see him again when I think of that I mean there won't be a summer now that he's not coming but he's gone and this was the decision that he made to leave and so I'll have to adjust to that do you feel that in some way his spirit will abide with yours or that you can be in touch with that if you wanted to do you feel that I believe that in my 80s or 90s that telepathically I will be able to communicate with the beyond, with another dimension.

17:28This could happen, or it couldn't, but I kind of believe it. I always wanted to because I'm curious about life after death. I believe I will feel Craig's presence. I believe because he didn't write a letter. So that's what I want to ask. What do you think happens to us when we die? What happens? Okay, from my study, I believe we go into a state of mind that we find out what we didn't learn this lifetime, or what we didn't suffer. The suffering and the learning is a process that we go through down here. This is a learning one down here, whatever it is you do. And then after life, you find out what was not taken care of.

18:15And whatever wasn't, then you go from there with knowing that you've got to come back to earth and learn that. Get that corrected until you learn this perfection, and then you move on to the highest place. A little bit of that came from that Dante's comedy. I read his book. Yeah, I heard that when you were in dialysis, you were reading Book of Secrets from Deepak Chopra. You were reading Dante. Yeah. And you were reading Horse to Horse. I could see. I could see. Oprah, I believe there's another truth about that. That is why also death is okay because it's another education of whatever it is out there I want to know.

18:55So it was kind of, it is kind of that kind of realization. And I believe that's what we go through. But you had to. We find out what we didn't learn this lifetime or what we did. And we have to come back. And repeat it. reincarnate, go through that till we get it. And we keep getting it until you get to the top. So what would you be coming back to learn? Okay. So this brings me to this question. What is the lesson that's taken you the longest to learn here on earth? Oh, let me see. The longest. Okay. First of all, the hardest part was school. I checked on it to find out why I was learning so hard and my frontal lobes were down because there was smoking from the mother and there was violence in the family when I grew up.

19:46And that is something that makes you lose all of that that the brain would normally have. So next lifetime, I want to be smarter. I think I will come back as a smarter spiritual person, maybe even as a teacher, not as a doer to correct things. I think I'll probably come back as a teacher. Can I just stop you right here? What you just said describes everything about why you had the life that you had. So as I said to you, I've been doing a lot of studying and research on trauma and talking to experts about it. So first of all, you could feel in the womb when you're not wanted. Right. And if you are raised in an environment where there is violence and chaos, the synapses in your brain do not even form properly.

20:38That's right. Yes. And so you come in at a disadvantage. Yes. Because you know you're coming in. Spiritually, you're taking in. Energetically, you're taking in that entire environment, although you don't have the language in which to express those feelings. You've got it. You've said it perfectly. Sometimes I don't have the words, but I know what I'm trying to say. And that was actually how I came into the world. That was my karma this lifetime. But I finished it. I finished it with flying colors. So I believe for me, that's why I don't fear death and I don't have a thing about it. I believe I'm going to a very high place, and when I reincarnate, that I will come back to teach.

21:20Wow. That's what I believe, Oprah. As you taught now. Yes. What do you think your calling has been and continues to be? Well, I think it's led, it has led to this, even though I didn't realize that I was teaching people. I didn't realize that my energy told people to get up and go and do it. No, it wasn't just my energy. It was my life, but how I lived it was go on. I had a message that went with that energy and that work. And I think that was how I survived the life and all the suffering. I think that. But again, you see, I doubt myself. That is the little part that's not clear yet, but it's coming.

22:09I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. Can I also get the latest iPhone every year? Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment. Purchase or separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

22:39This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies, and making sure every order goes out on time. And Grainger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Grainger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

23:12what is your definition of success oh positivity uh and what you do yeah uh security um what else can i say that's good to go with that do you feel super successful do you feel super successful do i still feel successful yes i feel that do you feel super successful super I don't know if you're successful. Super. Super. Super. Let me think about the super. Yeah, I mean, you're sitting there and. Is anything missing? No, nothing is missing in my success because, but look at what happened. I went through it with Ike, and then I went through it on my own, and now look at what's coming. A book, a musical.

23:54A musical. Yeah, and then I think everybody's working. He's working on a documentary. And so it really looks like this lifetime, that is what I became, a teacher, and giving people that hope to make it happen, to just don't accept it because it's rough or tough on you. You just will it. Did I answer your question? Because sometimes I, when I'm talking about that, my mind goes off to really try to make a definition of it. I wanted to ask you, too, about what are at this particular point. I mean, first of all, you survived. You survived. You got a kidney from your beloved and you survived a stroke and taught yourself how to walk again.

24:39And you managed to be hooked up in that machine and turned upside down for your inner ear vertigo thing. And you had your intestines cut out with cancer all within the past three years. So when I ask you, what are you most grateful for? Okay, well, what am I most grateful for? That I survived. That I survived it all without hating or blaming anyone. Ooh, good. And very grateful that I had people, really honest, good, genuine people to help me. That's the people in Zurich that really gave me a second life. And I called it a second life because my new birthday is April 8th. That's when I got the kidney.

25:28So then I survived it, Oprah. I won. I, yoo-hoo. Yoo-hoo. Yoo-hoo is right. Yoo-hoo is right. Yoo-hoo is it. Yeah, I did it. I got it done. Oh, I'm so proud of you. And I can't wait for the musical to come to Broadway in the USA. I want to see that happen. And what's interesting is, do you find that watching, doing a book, seeing your life sort of catalog that way, and also what it takes to come up with all of those memories and the words to put it together, and also looking at yourself on stage, that you get to see your life in a way that you hadn't thought about it before. I didn't think about it before.

26:15I'll tell you what I was thinking about at the time when I was creating myself was the hair situation, the clothes, the dressing. I had to make myself pretty because I didn't see myself as a beauty. So I had to make myself what I felt, the way I was proud of myself, and that was that look that came out of it ended up being the greatest picture for the musical that they could have done. That big hair, which was the ugliest at the time, was the greatest hair that I could have worn and that they could have used for the musical. I think that everything that I did in the beginning was what got me here.

26:56Even though it wasn't as pretty and glamorous as the other things, but it was mine. It was. You started with the wigs. Now everybody's got a wig or a weave or a da-da-da. But you turned that wig thing into your own thing. Yes, I did. That was my version of mine. You cut it and clipped it and added and subtracted. I wanted to make it look natural. Right. To the point where I love there's a story you tell where you went to a doctor and the doctor asked, what is your race? Nationality, yeah. And I said, I'm black. And he said, no. He said, what is your, it was nationality. No, he said. Your ethnicity, yeah.

27:38Yeah, something. And then I said, black. He says, no, what race are you? And I said, black. and then he didn't say anything else. He thought that I didn't understand, but I said, well, maybe he will find out later or something. But, you know, in the beginning, people didn't wear those wigs, and so people didn't know you were wearing a wig. And it's because he didn't think you were black because your hair was so... Yeah, it was so natural. It was always very natural. And I pride myself on that, Oprah, because I did make those wigs look good, and I wear them because I enjoy them, I mean, it's less work than sitting in a salon for hours, you know.

28:13It's just a pleasure. So do you have a room for all your wigs? Yes, and they're pretty. I have wigs, and I actually have several Tina wigs. I remember that one. Remember that one? Stebman had to tell me to stop. Stebman had to say to me, you are not Tina Turner. You are not Tina. You are not Tina. You can let that wig go. You are not Tina. Take that wig off. It's off your head. You've got hair. You wear your hair. I remember you said it. But he was right, you know. Oprah, you've got to work with you. You have to work with the wigs. Somebody can't make them. Nobody else can make them. That's correct.

28:50Yes. That's right. Yeah. I wanted to ask you this. Why a book at this particular time? That also came with those people that had the idea for the musical. Okay. They felt in a story there was always an ending or a second part, a first part and a second part. And they said, now we need to hear about that sickness and all of that that came after retirement. Nobody would believe that a person could go through that much and end up with a kidney from a new love in your life. Nobody would believe it. And so it all started with that. With that. Okay. So let me ask you this. Final question. It's called My Love Story.

29:31Okay. You never really experienced love as a child. The question is, do you now? do you finally feel loved, and what does that feel like? Yes, the answer is I feel loved, but it's not what I thought love was. When you see it on the movies or everywhere, you think, oh, look how romantic. It's real love with me. It's a holding hands, a touching, a look. It's security. is finally totally being secure, not worried about anything, but if something happens and Irvin is in an accident or something, this is something that would tear me apart, I'm sure. But now I have gotten to the state of feeling loved, feeling secure, feeling it's not always about all the other things that go with under the title of love.

30:35For me, it comes with a look, a touch, sometimes just holding hands through the night, a togetherness, a knowingness, the knowingness of peace, finally, that you don't have to worry. I don't worry about other women. I don't worry about anything. I am totally a free bird because... Because you know what? It's interesting. You say, say, hold that thought. But I want to just interrupt here. You say in the book that there was a time where you didn't want to date other men because you didn't know if they could accept you without the wig when you didn't have the wig on. Yeah, I think I said I didn't want people to know me.

31:24I didn't want that many men to know me. I didn't really want to get involved with taking off the wig and getting involved with somebody that would accept me like that. That is a bit of a worry when you wear a wig and the man doesn't know that you're wearing the wig. I never hid it, but that was a part, that's a little bit of a fear in those days when you wore wigs. These days it's common. everyone is wearing the extension braids but that that that goes with wigs because people feel that you're not natural but once you come to grips with well i am natural this is what i wear and that is how you have to feel about it this is my hair so for you love is being able to be with someone it's a touch it's a look and to be with somebody with or without your tina wig and you said in the book you don't you have you don't have to even make yourself look pretty going to No, no, no, no, absolutely not.

32:21Totally natural. And I say, if I'm wearing something that bothers him, all he has to do is tell me. I'm as quick as, but I'm totally at home comfortable, totally. And that is natural love, not that kissing and touching and sex. Love is genuine feelings of being secure with someone without having to do anything. You're there. Yoo-hoo. Yoo-hoo.

32:59Okay, that's it for me. Thank you so much for two hours of your time on the day before you have to go and put your song to that. Also, I know you're on holiday, but we felt that I should do something about Grace's death. And so I said, okay, I won't do it with anyone except Oprah. And so I didn't know if I could break in on your holiday. But thank you so much for that. And also thank you for meeting the cast at London. They were thrilled with that. They were over the moon. So thank you for all of that. I give you a big, big kiss. And we'll see each other soon. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.

33:37You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

33:57Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's$2 billion in odd hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it. So you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year.

34:37Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment. Purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. additional term supply for all offers.