Zainab Salbi: Giving Women a Voice

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1:48Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O 'Neal, Reba McIntyre, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class. Oprah's Masterclass Podcast is available now on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcast.com slash Oprah's Masterclass. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.

2:35Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Humanitarian Zeynep Salbi. For decades, she's helped women in war-torn countries stand in their truth. Zeynep was first called to action at the age of 23. It was the early 90s, during the Bosnia and Croatia conflict, when Zeynep read about a massive number of rapes in that region. Sparked by her personal experience of war, Zainab founded Women for Women International. The idea was brilliantly simple. Connect women in war zones with other women around the world through letters and a$30 a month sponsorship.

3:17Zainab believes that honoring your own voice can awaken others to new possibilities, helping them heal and see that they're not alone. Welcome. Thank you. You know our intention here, Super Soul Sunday, is to open the hearts and minds of people and if you can drop little pieces of light into their lives so that they see themselves differently and see the world differently and I know that you know when you founded women for women international that might not have been your specific intention but that's exactly what you did you open hearts and minds you dropped pieces of light into women's lives by letting them share their stories and that became its own force of empowerment.

4:06How did you know to do that? Well, it all started by me being in war. I grew up in war, in the Iran-Iraq war. I was in Iraq and I know one thing about war. It makes you feel isolated. It makes you feel that the world has forgotten about you. Absolutely. So you decided, all right, I'm going to find out where Basia is and I'm going to do what? What was the initial feeling? I was newly married at the time. We were going to go to Spain for our honeymoon. My husband was very incredibly supportive, and we ended up putting the little money that we had for our honeymoon, and we ended up going to Croatia.

4:45And we literally, you know, knocked on women's doors and on women's rights organization's doors, and we said, we're here to help us. And it has been a journey of humility for me. And it started with that first trip, because that first trip I went and I said, I am here to help all women survivors of rape in Bosnia. And I remember the woman who said, then don't help us. Because if you're gonna isolate us as only women survivors of rapes or victims of rapes, then you're even stigmatizing us even more. Either you help all of us, regardless of what we have gone through, or don't help us. And that has been the beginning of many lessons I have got.

5:25It's a humbling experience. Every time I went to a culture or a country and I thought, I am going to do this, I get like a slap on the hand. And it's like, no, that's not how we do it. And they taught me. And I realized knowledge is not by being educated and I have, you know, master's degree and blah, blah, blah. Everyone has access to wisdom and knowledge. The person who changed my life was an illiterate woman, is an illiterate woman. Knowledge, everyone has it, is how do we respect other people's knowledge? How do we hear? And how did she change her life? Well, her name is Nembitu. She's from Congo.

6:0752 years old woman. And she was telling me about how she was raped. Her 9-year-old daughter raped. Her 21, 22-year-old daughter raped. So she's telling me, she said, I never told anybody the story but you. And I looked at her and I said, Nambitu, I'm a storyteller. I sort of, what I do is I come and tell the story to the rest of the world so I can raise money and attention to help other women. Should I keep this one a secret? So she looks at me and she said, if I can tell my story to the whole world, I would. So other women would not have to go through what I've gone through. But I can't, you can, you go ahead and tell the story, just not to my neighbors.

6:52Now, two things happen. I was driving for five hours from Congo to Rwanda at that time, and I cried. I cried throughout that five hours because I realized what I was doing is this woman had more consciousness and more courage than I did by connecting her individual story to the larger collective of stories. And here I am hiding, hiding behind all the other women's stories. And in that realization, I realize I am not worthy to even help her or be in service, in service to her if I don't do my homework. How dare I ask any woman to speak up? Do your soul work. Your soul work. Absolutely. Your soul's work.

7:34How dare I ask any woman to speak up if I don't speak up myself? Because up until that point, you were afraid to let people know that you even knew Saddam Hussein. Yes, of course.

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9:05Whole Foods Market, make your summer sizzle. During her childhood, Zaynab's father, Tariq, worked for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein as his personal pilot. Her family lived in a constant state of fear, having heard horror stories of Iraqis being sent to prison, enduring torture, and even death for any perceived misstep. In her powerful memoir, Between Two Worlds, Zainab says that even thinking was dangerous, so she learned to shut off her mind and suppress her true feelings in order to survive. I was ashamed. Ashamed. I mean, I literally was ashamed. How can I be a women's rights actor? I mean, how can I tell you that I knew Saddam Hussein?

9:53Because I believed that if I told anybody that they will no longer see me and they will see his face instead. because he's so much powerful than me. And so there was a shame in that. When I told my story, it was a leap of faith. I did not know how many people will accept me, will hate me, will kill me. And when I realized in the process, because people did not react the way I thought they would react, they actually, they welcomed it. They hugged me. They said, thank you so much. And strange women would end up walking to me and they would tell me their stories. And I was like, I don't know what to do with yours.

10:28But only I realized when someone breaks their own silence, that person becomes like a candle to other people. To give light to everyone else. Absolutely. And to know that you're not alone. You're not alone. And so what I realized in the process is that I, for the longest time, had become the prison guard for my fear. Ooh, that's good. That I was the guard that was feeding my fear, actually. But you realize when you own your story and you tell it, and you walk out of your shame, then you are liberating yourself in the process. For me, shame is like a spider web on ourselves. And also, it allows what you talk, what we also know is true, Brene talks about this a lot too, when you are allowed to break your silence, you become vulnerable in a way that actually makes you more powerful.

11:19Yes. Yeah. That's exactly how I feel, really, honestly. Because, you know, my vulnerability felt to me like stripping naked in front of the whole world. And I realize it's like either I stay in fear, and I'm always worried what would people say or do to me, you know, and I'm like this. Or I take off, not physically, you know, I take off my clothes. I tell the people this is who I am, naked. I am doing it for myself. So there's nothing to fear when I'm doing it. You own it. Absolutely. And do you find, because you have talked to hundreds and hundreds of women throughout the world who have been broken and torn apart physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually through war.

12:06Do you find, though, that when they're able to just release a little bit of that story, that the healing starts? Because the story, the holding of the shame, the holding of the story and not being able to share the story is what continues to kill you inside. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's for me, not only because the story at that point does not define them. They define the story. When we stay in our victimhood, which at least for me, I was in my victimhood for a while, then the story defines me. As you do the work, you are the change you want to make in the world. For me, it's like, how can I be advocating for anything, peace, if I don't experience peace myself?

12:51How can I advocate for happiness if I am not happy? When did you know that this human rights activist, an advocate for the empowerment and betterment of women people, especially in the world, was your calling? I guess it started when I was 15 years old. Yeah. My mom used to make me read all these books. You know, she used to give me, actually, one of the first books she made me read is like a woman called I Am Free in Arabic. Roots, she made me read all of Roots. And I'm a teenager. I'm not understanding what is she doing to me. Like, you know, she's just telling me, read these, read. And I would read it.

13:28And she would tell me about all the abuse that women would go through. And my grandmother, my grandmother was married off as a 13-year-old child, taken off school, and how the grandmother made sure all of her daughters go to college. So my mom would tell me the stories of women. And at 15, I told her, Mom, when I grow up, I'm going to help all women around the world. You know, she gave me the best gift of that moment. She looked at me and she said, and you can, honey. Zainab grew up in Baghdad under the shadow of Saddam Hussein. Her father's job as the brutal dictator's pilot drew the family into Saddam's inner circle, a dangerous place for a young woman.

14:13Zainab says her mother, Aliyah, was determined to do whatever it took to protect her daughter. Your mom actually sent you to the United States to be married, correct? Yes, that was my mom. What I felt, that's my first sensation of betrayal. It came from the person I love the most. So your mom sent you away to be married. You didn't want to be married? Not me. I mean, she always told me that I should choose the person. I should choose the person that I want to marry. I should marry for love. And all of a sudden, she puts me in this arranged marriage. We literally get married within two weeks of arriving in America.

14:47and then they leave and go back to Iraq. And that month, that month, Iraq invades Kuwait and I get cut off from my family and I end up not seeing them for nine years. And the husband they married me to, he raped me, he violated me verbally, physically, all of it. Now it took me nine years. It took me my mom to be ill and the process of her dying when her and I were in real authentic conversation and a very honest conversation It was to learn that what she did to me was to save me. She was just pushing me out of Iraq because she was so afraid that Saddam, who my family were friends with, and I grew up seeing him every single weekend, mostly every single day in my life, was starting to see me as a woman as opposed to a child.

15:34And she panicked at the... And she knew that there would be nothing she could do about it if Saddam Hussein said, Yes. You are mine. Absolutely. Even though if we are his friends, it doesn't matter. When he wanted something, he got the something. And many women, many, many, many, many were raped by him. So you left your husband. Yes. You fled your husband. Three months after the marriage. Three months after the marriage. So you're now 20. I'm 20, exactly, with$400 in my pocket. And I realized that I have to build my life out of nothing, and I'm going to do it. And one day, I will go home and help women back home.

16:13This is just remarkable. I hear these stories. You know, you're a young girl. You're 20 years old. You say, I'm going to build my life. You have$400. You're in the United States. And you're going to build your life out of nothing? Do you think that's an inherent thing, that there are some women who say, I'm going to build my life out of nothing, and then there are some women who say, there's nothing I can do? I personally believe we all have that choice, that the circumstances is not choice. The circumstances we're put in is not a choice. It's imposed on us. What do you choose to do with your story is a choice, personally.

16:51Yeah. I think we have individual choices for what do we do with our circumstances. You know, you choose to do this or you choose to do that. That's my personal belief. Now, I put all my energy on being in service. That's sort of, it's who I am, I feel. It's like not resisting who you are. And that's the creation of Foment Foment. And that's like the, it's... So did something happen in particular around 23 that you said, this is it. I'm now going to go and save women of the world. I was going to school in America. And for the first time in my life, I learned about the Holocaust and about concentration camps in the Holocaust and about how people said never again.

17:32That same month, there were images of concentration camps in Bosnia. And we were doing it again. And it was for me a very childlike logic. It was like they said, never again, but it's happening again, so we must do something about it. It was as simple as that. And you'd never thought about it before? Not at all. I did not know who the Bosnians are. Did not know who they are. I had to go and teach myself which country they are from, what language do they speak, what their religion, what their culture. I came to the realization that when we avoid acknowledging and seeing injustice that is happening in front of us, when we turn our face, then we invariably legitimize it.

18:15Absolutely. And allow for the corruption of our own values. So when I say I have a responsibility, it is about me. Yeah. You know, I used to say that to our viewers during the many years of the Oprah show. And I would show child abuse. I would show, you know, graphic images of domestic violence or something. And I'd say, and now you can never pretend that you didn't see it. You can go on and make your dinner this evening. You can go shopping. You can do whatever. But you cannot pretend that you didn't see it because now that has entered your consciousness. And the question is, what will you do?

18:54Absolutely. Yeah. How will you use that? What will you do? And you don't have to change your life, by the way, to do it. up and form women for women international. But you can allow it to open the heart space for yourself and you in your own world treat people differently, you know? It's as simple as whatever it is. It could be as simple as seeing a homeless person looking at them in the eyes. Yes. It's you don't have to like be heroic journey or anything like that. It's the simple act, you know, growing, living in war but also working war. I came to realize that people resist not in the superhero way.

19:31They resist in the small acts, in the small acts. You know, it's my mother resisted by keeping love in my heart. That was her resistance to fear. People resist in this way. And we can change the world in small acts. It doesn't have to be big, heroic superhero acts. One of the things that you acknowledge is that there are two sides of war. There's the bombing and there's the obvious violence and there's that that we see and is reported on the news. And then there's the other side of that, which usually involves women and children. Yes, it's the woman baking bread in Gaza. Yes. Well, I mean, when we talk about war in war zones, I mean, in the front lines, for example, we don't talk about life keeps on going in the midst of war.

20:19I mean, people still go to school and they still go to hospitals and they actually still have to earn a living to eat. I think most people don't even think about that. You think, oh, there's this war going on in Iraq and that's all that's happening in Iraq. But while that's happening, there are mothers feeding their children and trying to send their children to school and people still going to work every day and life going on. Absolutely. And you have birthday parties and you get married and you get divorced and you get all of these. All in the midst of the war. And it keeps going in the midst of war.

20:50Now, the ones who lead it, the ones who lead what I call the backline discussion, you know, the life, are women. And their resistance becomes, it's not the fighting, their resistance becomes how to keep life going. So when I was a child in war, in the midst of a siren, my mom would play for me and my brothers puppeteer. puppeteer. She would make her own puppeteer on the shadows of the candle to make us laugh and entertain us as the bombs and the planes are bombing the country. A Bosnian woman, she's a piano teacher. For four years in the midst of the war in Sarajevo in Bosnia, she kept the music school open every single day.

21:31And for her, she says, this is my resistance is to keep the music going. I In order to keep people, to allow people to literally rebuild the fabric of their own lives. Absolutely. Because you have to keep life. You have to keep life going. A woman in Gaza in the midst of war, all she would do is, you know, go collect flour from all the neighbors, bake the bread, distribute the bread. We don't acknowledge these women's voices. And yet, without them, we don't have peace. Because peace is not the ending of fighting only. Peace is actually the building of life. It's like stitching life back with each other.

22:10You know, it's sort of the normalizing of life, the jobs, the schools, the weddings. You know, that's peace. You were in Sarajevo, and a woman there made a request that really surprised you. What was it? Well, when I started, you know, I was only 23 when I started Women for Women, so I also was taking myself very seriously. I was like the activist role, you know, wearing jeans and sneakers. and to be a human rights activist or a humanitarian, you have to like sort of, I would call it, exactly, rustic, you know, I call it uglifying myself, you know, and so I'm going to Sarajevo. It was really hard to enter Sarajevo and I'm telling the woman, what should I bring you next time I'm here?

22:47And this woman, she's like, lipsticks. I was like, lipstick? Really? You don't want vitamins? I don't know, like, you know, I'm like thinking like something, you know, to help her. She's like, no, I want lipstick because it's the simplest thing that each woman can put on every single day, and we feel beautiful. And that's how I'm resisting the war. This woman told me, she said, I want that sniper before he shoots me to know he is killing a beautiful woman. And lipstick is the easiest thing for any woman around the world to put on and feels beautiful. Actually, it is through working with women survivors of wars, in wars, that I learned how to appreciate beauty and to incorporate beauty in my own life.

23:30And look at me now. I'm like, you know, still the women's rights activist. You're wearing the colors of the region. Exactly. But I like, I appreciate beauty right now. And it is, beauty becomes one way of resisting, one way of building peace. But you had to learn yourself. I mean, I look at you, I see a beautiful woman. It took you a while before you could look at yourself and see a beautiful woman. You taught yourself to see your own beauty. How did you do that? Well, I actually always thought, first of all, that I am not a beautiful woman. I would look at myself in the mirror and no matter how many people, my former husband, everyone, everyone's like, you're beautiful.

24:05I was like, nope, I would look and I say, not a beautiful woman. I can say ugly woman, but not a beautiful woman, you know. And one day, you know, a Tibetan woman actually told me, she said, you need to start meditating on your eyes. So I go to the mirror, same mirror, by the way, same mirror. And I'm meditating and it's too much to look at your whole face. and I start looking into the pupil of my eyes. And in the pupil, I just kept on meditating on it, you know. And I saw my soul. I don't know. And it was beautiful. What I saw was a beautiful person, you know. And I was like, but it was just the pupil.

24:43It's just one. And I was like, wow, that's a beautiful person inside. And little by little, I mean, through that mirror, little by little, I start seeing my own beauty. It's the same food I eat. Stopped judging yourself. Yeah. Christiane Northrup was saying, do the same thing. Look in the mirror and say to yourself for 30 days, I love you, and see how you feel. And really look deep into your own essence. Absolutely. And something else shows up. You know, I believe it's like, you know, when I, it's loving oneself is part of loving God. You know, it's like, this is, this is God's gift. And loving this is part of loving God's gift.

25:23For me, it's because I struggled with the concept of loving oneself. I thought it's a selfish concept. I grew up with it being a selfish concept. And for me, it took a journey to love myself. And I really believe it's part of loving God. It's part of my expression for my love of God. How many lives do you think you actually affected and changed around the world through Women for Women International? Number-wise, it's about 450 ,000 women. For me, it's not enough. Really, it's not enough. I can't cry. It's not enough. Well, is it ever enough? That's the question for all of us. Is it ever enough?

26:09I think the first time you were on the Oprah show was in the 90s? Was it the 90s? It was September 2000. The Oprah Winfrey Show changed women for women tremendously. We were helping 600 women only in September 2000. Ten years later, several appearances later, we raised$100 million to about 450 ,000 women around the world. Wow. Thank you. Viewers did that. That's amazing. How do you keep yourself restored doing this? I mean, I used to find this with the Oprah show, that every day you're talking to people who come from very difficult circumstances, that the energy of that sometimes would feel like that I'd be covered in that energy.

26:58And I had to work to keep a balance of not taking in everybody else's energy. What do you do? I know you meditate. I meditate a lot when I do my meditation or my practice in my yoga. AND YOU KNOW, WHEN MY HANDS, IT TOUCHES THE GROUND, THIS IS FOR ME THE MOST BEAUTIFUL SENSATION. AND I SAY, THANK YOU, GOD. AND IN THE GROUNDEDNESS, I FEEL THAT'S WHEN THAT RESTORES ME. WHEN I BREATHE, I FEEL I'M BREATHING GOD. AND WHEN I EXHALE, I THINK I'M EXHALING INTO GOD. AND THEN THESE ARE SMALL THINGS, IT'S THE CONNECTIONS WITH GOD AND WITH EARTH THAT RESTORES MY SPIRITS. AND HOW DO YOU DEFINE GOD? EVERYTHING.

27:40My mom, when I was a kid, and I grew up a Muslim, my mom used to tell me, don't look at God only up there. God is everywhere. God is in the trees. God is in the flower. God is in the sand. We have sand in Iraq, you know. And I really think God is in the chair. God is here everywhere, everywhere. You know, I just... So when God becomes the everything, you know, and inside and inside, then, you know, loving the world becomes part of loving God. Loving myself becomes part of all the love becomes part of loving God. So there is religion, which you are Muslim. And then there is the ground and the breath and breathing and recognizing that every breath is God and every exhale, you're exhaling into God.

28:30What is the difference? The religion is the rituals I feel. And for me, the latter is how do you take the spirit of the religion? What is religion? What are all the religions? They're saying the exact same thing for me. They're saying the exact same thing. And that same thing is sort of, for me, is out of love for God. To try to aspire to be... In Sufism, they say, we are to empty ourselves like a flute. and that's an individual process. Yes. So God can... How you empty, yes. How you empty. I feel like consciousness is like a switch light. You know, we each have the choice to switch it on or off.

29:12Right. And if you switch it on, you have to do the work. Right. And you empty yourself like a flute so God can whisper through you, so God can play the flute through you. And that's all of us. Isn't that roomy? That is a roomy. Okay. That's all of us. All of us can do that. So for me, the breathing in on God is that takes the spirit, the spirit of religions, Islam included, you know, and look at why we're trying to do that. You know, it's like to, it takes the spirit of religion rather than the ritual of religion. Hi, this is Jonathan Fields, host of The Good Life Project. What if your home could welcome you at the door, energize your kitchen and calm your bedroom all automatically?

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30:40Whole Foods Market. Make your summer sizzle. You know, we live in this polarized world of darkness and light. Summer and winter.

30:54how do you stay in the light? Only by acknowledging my dark. And it only was a recent process for me to, with consciousness, try to look at my own shadow. Where are the parts of myself that I snap or I'm impatient or whatever it is, you know? And how do I own it? And I put myself in that pain and I tell myself, this will help you connect to someone else one day in the future. So when a friend one day tell me I am in pain or I did this embarrassing thing, I'm like, yes, I did that too. Did you see what I am? It's an acceptance of it and thus a release of it. When the shame goes, there's a freedom comes as well.

31:39Absolutely. What do you believe about conflict? I BELIEVE CONFLICT IS THE MOST UNFORCED. IT'S WHERE WE ARE BETRAYING OURSELVES. IT'S ABOUT GREED. I DON'T MEAN ONLY MATERIAL GREED. IT'S OUR OWN GREED WHERE WE ARE BETRAYING OURSELVES FOR MOST INSIGNIFICANT THINGS AND WE END UP WITH SO MUCH KILLING. IT'S JUST OUR HUMANITY BETRAYING ITSELF. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE ABOUT FAITH? You know, faith is the one thing, by the way, in the midst of all the darkness in war zones that I worked in in the Middle East right now. It's something you cannot touch, but it's the most important thing that keeps people going.

32:22It's like everyone goes back into the something, faith, inside them and hold on to that. It's a leap of faith that we never can tell it what it is, but it is the one agent of change that keeps us going. What truth is it that you actually embrace in your daily life? Is there a truth? I know that you're a big truth seeker. Yes. My mission statement in my life is to speak the truth, to live the truth, to be my truth. So every day I try to do that. And what helped me actually, when my mom was dying 15 years ago, she wrote a letter to every person in her life. She asked for forgiveness from some people.

33:06She needed to ask for forgiveness. She forgave whoever she needed to forgive. She used to make me read the letter before I mailed it. She had ALS, so she could not speak. So she was like, read it. And then I helped her fold it and mail it. And she told people, I love you. And she communicated with every person in her life. And so when I saw my mom dying, and she died at age 52, do. And I realized that I said, I'm not going to wait until I'm dying to do this. I'm going to do this all the times. And every time I tell my truth, when I wrote my book, it's sort of what's felt like a stone that's suffocating me in here became crystal.

33:51And so every time I tell my truth, the journey of truth is hard, but the taste of it is so delicious that it becomes addictive. You know, it's sort of every time I walk the journey of truth in whatever it is, in my work, in my personal life, and within myself, it's not an easy journey. But the taste is always like the peace starts getting deeper and deeper. And so it's worth it. Finish the sentence, I believe. I believe love is bigger than all. I really believe love is bigger than all. So no matter what's happening in the world with all the racism and the prejudices and the killing and the job, love is still bigger than all.

34:39So I believe love will triumph. What do you believe about forgiveness? I once had a dream, you must forgive even when not asked to be forgiven. You must forgive even when not ask for forgiveness. And in the dream, I remember saying, no, it's too much to ask for this. It's too much. And it really took me a long time to realize I have to forgive even when not ask for forgiveness to free my own self. It's my path for freedom. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you. Thank you so, so, so much. Thank you. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

35:25If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

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