Anne Marie Anderson on How to Build Your Front Row | EP 587

0:00Coming up next on PassionStruck. I think in working with your inner critic is acknowledging it's always going to be there, John. Your inner critic is always going to be alongside you chirping away. You need to be able to recognize when it's talking and take away its ability to make decisions for you. You can explore the ideas, but your inner critic does not get to be a decision maker. Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.

0:36Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hey, PassionStruck fam. Welcome to episode 587. Whether you're a longtime listener or tuning in for the first time, I am so grateful you're here. You have joined a global movement dedicated to unlocking your full potential, living with intention, and making what truly matters matter most.

1:23Before we dive in, let's take a moment to reflect on Tuesday's episode with Nir Eyal. We explored how to master focus, break free from distractions, and design a life that aligns with your deepest goals. If you missed it, I highly recommend going back to listen. It's packed with actionable insights to help you reclaim your time and attention. Now let me ask you this. What if the only thing standing between you and your biggest dreams isn't a lack of talent or opportunity, but a lack of audacity? What if the bold risks we shy away from are actually the ones that could transform our lives? And how do we dismantle doubt and step into the courage required to chase what truly matters?

2:04That's exactly what we're diving into today with my guest, the extraordinary Anne-Marie Anderson, a three-time Emmy Award-winning broadcaster for ESPN, keynote speaker, and now the author of her powerful new book, Cultivating Audacity, How to Dismantle Doubt and Take Bold Risks. Anne-Marie's story is a masterclass in resilience, reinvention, and the power of intentional risk-taking. From her days as a standout collegiate volleyball player to her groundbreaking career covering six Olympic Games, heavyweight title fights, and the Super Bowl, she continually pushed the boundaries of what's possible.

2:40In today's conversation, we explore how Anne-Marie made audacity her superpower, navigating setbacks with grit and grace. We explore the lessons she's learned from legendary coaches and athletes about achieving greatness, and then we go into her strategies for dismantling self-doubt, recalibrating rejection, and taking risks that matter. Anne-Marie's insights go beyond her incredible career. They challenge us to rethink our mindset, action, and sense of belonging. Whether you're at a crossroads in your personal journey, striving to lead with intention, or simply looking for the courage to take your next big leap, this conversation will leave you inspired and empowered.

3:16And for those of you who want to go deeper, check out our episode starter packs at either Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs. With over 500 episodes, we've curated playlists on themes like leadership, mental health, and personal growth to help you find the inspiration that resonates most with you. And don't forget to subscribe to my Live Intentionally newsletter at passionstruck.com for exclusive weekly insights, tools, and actionable strategies to live with greater intention. And if you prefer video, join the growing community on the John R. Miles YouTube channel, where you can watch this episode and more.

3:49While you're there, subscribe and share it with someone who could benefit from Anne-Marie's wisdom. Now, let's dive into this incredible conversation about fearless living, bold risk-taking, and the courage to pursue what truly matters with the remarkable Anne-Marie Anderson. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin.

4:16I am absolutely thrilled today to welcome Anne-Marie Anderson to PassionStruck. Welcome, Anne-Marie. Thanks, John. I'm excited to talk with you. As I talked about in the introduction, Your career is filled with many extraordinary accomplishments from winning Emmy Awards to covering the Olympics and other major sporting events. What are some pivotal moments that shaped your approach to boldness and dismantling doubt, things we're going to cover in depth today? I started ESPN when I was 21 years old in a temporary position. It was only guaranteed for six months. And I think to start my professional career in a competitive way, knowing that I needed to compete in those six months and really shine and stand out and be bold and different, shaped the way that I approached my career.

5:06As a former athlete, I'm used to competing. And to be able to, there's no time to warm up. There's no time to be shy, which I was when you're pitching story ideas for ESPN's SportsCenter. I think right out of the gate, I learned quickly that I needed to be willing to take some bold risks in my career if I wanted to succeed. Well, I know for me that being a Division I athlete really was critical in developing so many aspects of who I am and my mindset around the importance of taking action, how it developed my relationship with teammates and the power that they bring to supporting you and encouraging you.

5:48I know you had a really illustrious career at Hofstra. How did that influence your competitive experience and resilience that you now have in life and in your career? I totally agree with you. There's so much that can be learned from being part of a team at any level that you take into business. I had a little bit of a unique situation going into college. I was a pretty good volleyball player and I was being recruited by a lot of the West Coast schools. I had talked to Hawaii and Long Beach and UCLA and such. And then I broke my leg. And so all of my offers, West Coast went away. I literally went on recruiting trips on crutches with a broken leg.

6:32And that's how I ended up at Hofstra, a school I had never heard of before up to that point because I'm a Colorado kid and I live in California now. And I think what I learned being there was the value of adaptation. It was a different level of volleyball at that point. And I look now at all the kids transferring from one school to the other to get the best opportunity. And what I learned there at Hofstra was really how to work within a different system, how to embrace, I mean, New York is a different culture altogether, how to embrace a different culture. And I feel like that resilience, because we didn't win a lot.

7:13And I learned how to reframe my relationship with failure, with losing at times, until by my senior year, we were winning quite a bit. I think if I had gone into a really winning program and sat the bench, by the way, I'm sure I would have, I maybe wouldn't have been quite as resilient as I ended up being by the time I graduated. Yeah, it really does make a huge difference. And I'm so honored that I had that background. And having gone to a service academy, I sometimes wonder how much it would have been different if I went to a normal university where you didn't have, where I'm sure the sports focus would have been even more pronounced.

7:57I think our coaches knew we had these other elements to our existence, so they couldn't own all our time. But I think at other universities, you're really owned by the sport that you're part of. Yes. And thank you for your service, by the way. Which academy did you go to? I went to the Naval Academy. Thank you very much for your service. Thank you. Today, we are going to be discussing your brand new book. Congratulations on that, Cultivating Audacity. And I think it's important to start out with maybe a definition of what audacity is. completely because I think in this country we have this negative connotation of audacity right I mean it's you have the audacity to ask me that or the audacity to say that who do you think you are I mean my parents used to say that once in a while to me when I was a teenager and then I looked it up and audacity by definition is the willingness to take bold risks that's not negative doesn't have any kind of a negative ringtone to it to me in fact my sister in-law is from argentina and she was surprised to hear that there is sometimes a little bit of a negative undercurrent with the word because in argentina audacity is all the positive things looking at taking bold risk which is audacity i don't think it's something you're born with john i think it is something that you have to cultivate and grow and that's why that's the title, Cultivating Audacity, because it takes practice in order to take bold risks and have the confidence to do so.

9:28I have a friend of mine, Scott Simon, who wrote the book, Scare Your Soul, and he's trying to start a courage movement. But I think it's the same thing. You've got to start taking boundary expanding actions if you want to grow from it. And I think that's, as I read the book, a lot of your philosophy as well. For sure. Because again, it's about reframing what failure looks like. I tell people that like to be, oh, I just, I don't like risk. I want to stay the same. That's great. If you're completely happy with every aspect of your life, your health and fitness, your relationships, your work, everything.

10:02But the only thing that staying the same ensures is that there's no growth possible. So if you want to grow in any one area of your life, staying the same is not an option. You're going to have to risk, Take information from that leap, whatever it is, and keep using it to drive you towards your vision and your values. That's really what it's about, is anything that brings you closer to your vision, your values, and who you want to be. Emory, you have had a lot of defining experiences and success stories in your life. Is there a time when you took a bold risk that didn't pay off? And if so, what did you learn from it?

10:42It's an interesting question. I feel like none of them paid off at the beginning. It was all about learning. I mean, my first time on air was in 78 million homes and I was horrible and I was afraid that I was going to be horrible and exposed and judged and embarrassed. And when I went on air, I was all those things, but I survived it. I mean, in terms of a bold risk that doesn't work out, it depends on whether you're looking at the outcome. I mean, the audacity is in the action. The victory is in the action, not in the outcome. So I went on air and everything that I was afraid of was true. And I survived it.

11:19And I got some resilience and some data to try to be better next time. As I look through my life and I look at any risk that I took, they all led me somewhere. Does that make sense? I don't count any of them as failures or not working out. It all just became information for me. I remember hearing you talk about that appearance on another podcast that I was listening to prepare for this. And you were in that discussion talking about a conversation you were having with your husband before you did the event and you were going through your head, all the things that could happen. Your career could come.

11:58It could be the end of your being a producer. It could be the end of you being a broadcaster. It could be the end of this and that. And I think that's something that we all tend to do. I know for me, it's always been intimidating to do public speaking. And I had one speech that I gave that didn't fall the way I wanted it to for a sales organization. And when I think about all the successes I had, they are not the first thing that comes to my mind. It's always that failure moment. But I think because of it, it's made me prepare even more now about what does the audience want? What do I need to deliver?

12:42How do I show up in the best way? Do you think it's the same thing for you? I think that's a great example, John. Isn't that the worst? First of all, my sympathies, right? You give the speech and then it falls flat and you're standing there like the emperor has no clothes. But you got information from it. And there's nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do. You're standing there naked in your head. Exactly. But you got information from it and rebounded. The incident you're talking about with my husband at the time was I was terrified that first time going on air, standing outside the stadium, sobbing.

13:17You want your reporter sobbing outside the stadium right before you go on ESPN2. It was in 78 million homes. And what I tell people is that if you catastrophize the absolute worst that can happen at some point, you're going to realize that it's probably not going to go that far. So the story that you were talking about, I said, I could be so bad that not only will I never be on television again, but I'll never be able to produce again, as you talked about, because nobody will listen to me and I'll lose my entire career in television. And if I lose my entire career in television, this is all I've ever wanted to do.

13:52So I will be a miserable person and you will have no choice but to leave me because I won't be able to be a good mother to our children who haven't even been born yet. And I will die destitute and alone. And he was like, wow, you went there. But once you catastrophize it, obviously I'm not going to die destitute and alone because I'm bad on a television camera one time. So once you take it to that ridiculous level, you can survive anything. And that's really what it's about is taking the action and no matter the outcome, knowing that you can survive and make another decision. Sometimes I feel like when we're going to make a decision, it feels like the last one we're going to make.

14:37If this doesn't work out and it's not the case, catastrophize it, it'll make it seem a little bit easier. I wanted to ask you one more question on your background before we go further into the book. Emory, what's the most audacious decision you've made in your career and how did you navigate the uncertainty that came with it? The most audacious thing I did looking back, and I almost can't believe it, like that, the hubris of young people. When I was 26, I lived in Bristol at ESPN's headquarters and loved my job. When I was 26, I took a vacation to Southern California to visit my brother in February.

15:18And I was thinking, man, people are playing beach volleyball out there in February and I'm shoveling snow. And so I went back to the headquarters and I said to my boss, I'd like to be LA Bureau producer. And he said, well, we already have an LA Bureau producer. And I was like, I know that's what makes this conversation so awkward, trying to chuckle it away. And as we discussed, he said, how about this? Give me two more years here. And in two years, if we haven't made you LA Bureau producer, what have you really lost? And I thought, well, two years in my twenties. And so I gave him my notice. He called me impatient.

15:55I just knew John that I wasn't enjoying my life. I was enjoying my job, but not my life, my free time. And so I gave him my notice and I quit ESPN, an absolute dream job, and drove cross country. And I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew I wasn't going to shovel snow. And when I got to Los Angeles, ESPN gave me some freelance work as soon as I arrived. And by the end of the year, I had been hired back at ESPN as LA Bureau producer for double the salary. And that taught me because I didn't make the decision for money. I made it for my life to be able to enjoy the quality of my life.

16:38And having more money was an unexpected consequence. I am so glad you shared this. And I think it's something I want to explore a little bit more because I think there are a lot of people out there who really feel stuck. I call it on the show, quiet desperation, where they get in a situation where they're making the money, they have the quality of life, they think, but they tend to be chasing the wrong things and their life is out of balance. That is exactly what happened to me. And how does someone who's in this position take the steps to get out their way out of it because it's much easier to talk about it than it is to actually do it.

17:26Yes. So here's the first thing to consider. When I talk about risks, I define in the book that there's risks that are reckless and risks that are worth it. And risks that are worth it is anything that drives you closer to your values, vision, and who you want to be. That leaving my job and moving across country was worth it to me at 26 when I didn't own any property, didn't have a family, no kids. If I were to do that same thing now, that would be reckless. So first define those two. Then as you're talking about, you may have somebody who's making a nice living and really not enjoying their work, but they're thinking, well, if I leave this, that could be reckless for my family.

18:10Then you want to explore what it is that you really enjoy and that you're good at and how you can get there in a worth it kind of way. And for me, if you have someone who's unhappy, let's say, in their job or their current situation, what exactly is it about it that you're unhappy with? Is it the actual work? Is it the location? Is it the people that you work with? Is it the field all together? Because you need to pinpoint what it is in order to change it. And then I have a series of exercises throughout the book to help you narrow the focus. Because I'll tell you this, John, there's always, after all my research and everybody I've talked to, there's always one of four things that stands between us and the thing we want to do, the life we want to lead, what we want our life to look like.

19:03It always comes down to one of these four. Fear, time, money, or your inner critic. Every time. And so diving into those and exploring what it is that's been stopping you can be incredibly powerful and breaking free. It absolutely is the truth. And I think one of the things that I found when reading your book on this chapter that we're talking about is, is you write, there isn't one reason to make a change. Everyone has a different rationale. But be careful about external motivation centered on others. Sometimes we may want to prove something wrong or make them feel proud of us. Other times we seek approval from those we esteem and aim to please them.

19:49We may do something audacious or take a risk because we want to put it on social media to impress people. Where I'm going with here is a lot of times we take these risks for external reasons. But what I have found is that if you're going to take a risk, the ones that I have done in the past that are focused on external seem to have a high failure rate. The ones that I have done that are based on intrinsic motivation tend to have a high success rate. Do you find a correlation in that? Absolutely. I mean, if you think about the example I gave you moving to Los Angeles, had I done that for money?

20:31I really think I wouldn't have had the money. It wasn't about that. It was internal the way I wanted my life to be. Look, if you're doing, taking a risk because you want to impress somebody, understand they may not even notice, right? You're thinking in your head, oh, I want them to be proud of me. They may not even notice. And the easiest way to check yourself about whether your motivation is of pure intent is, is it going to give you more of what you love in your life? Whatever that is, more time with your family, more autonomy, even if it's going to give you more money in your life, why do you want the money?

21:12What are you going to do with the money? But that's the easiest check. Does it give you more of what you love in your life? If it's an external motivation to make somebody proud doesn't fit that definition. I like this section of the book where you were talking to, it was before you even launched your career and there was an advisor who was talking to about a hundred of you and said that maybe one of you out of the hundred has a chance to be in broadcasting and to be successful. And I would think when you started, that would have been even more daunting as a female at that time in a very male-dominated one broadcasting, but two sports broadcasting world.

21:57So I think oftentimes we hear something like that. It could be a teacher, it could be a mentor we have, it could be a coach who gives us the barriers to be successful, and we end up giving up all hope and don't pursue it. For you, what led you to hear that and have the audacity to pursue it no matter what? Because I think that's what really differentiates the people who go for it. And I'll just make the correlation here. Like when I started this podcast, people were telling me, why are you even starting a podcast? There are like 3 million of them. This thing is never going to be a success. And if I had listened to them, I wouldn't be here talking to you.

22:41It's the same thing as you started your career. Exactly. And can I ask you a quick question before I answer? Why did you start the podcast? Why did you start it then? With people selling you like it's futile. I started it because I was called to serve people and I felt that the best way to do it and to get my message out was I needed a vehicle to do it. I didn't care about making money. That was never the goal. I didn't care about how many downloads I got. That wasn't the goal. I just felt if I could influence one person, it could have a ripple effect. And that's exactly what you've done. Perfect example, John, of like pure intention.

23:21It gave you more of what you love, which was helping people. That's the same way I feel about the book. Like I get so excited when somebody does the thing or takes the risk. And so for me, I always tell people, some of us build backwards. I wouldn't have gone into accounting. I can't ad. I faint at the sight of blood. I don't like the idea of working inside all day. I started eliminating all these professions. I love sports. I like talking to people. And so when the professor said that, I didn't have a plan B. I heard him and I thought, wow, that's really a bummer for you guys. Literally, I can't believe it when I look back.

24:00That's my thought when we were in there, but I don't have another choice. And that's why I kept pursuing it. What's your other choice? I always tell people, if you have a plan B, go do that because plan B is always easier. But for me, I knew this was the only thing I ever wanted to do. And so I was going to have to figure it out no matter how many times somebody told me no or what the odds are. So I want to jump to the area of preparation. And I remember doing an interview with Susan Cain, and I was talking to her about her TED Talk that went viral. I think she has 40, 50 million views on it. And it was such a well done, well rehearsed TED Talk.

24:49And she said, well, what people don't see is the 200 times I did it and failed. Yes. Because I practiced it so many times before I got up there in front of that stage and tried all different types of ways to approach it before I got confident in how I wanted to deliver it. And one of my other favorite interviews on the show was with Sally Jenkins, who I'm sure you probably know. And I was interviewing Sally about her book, The Right Call. But she was talking to me about her time observing the most elite of elite athletes. And she was telling me that what she saw differentiate them from even A-level athletes was this extraordinary mental and physical preparation that they do that just goes above and beyond.

25:43And using that as a backdrop, how do you see this relationship between preparation, our mindset, and then our willingness to take audacious leaps? I love that question. Because if you ask anybody in television about me, they will say that I'm prepared. I'm known for my preparation when I'm preparing for a game. And it's all a safety net. It was interesting when you were talking about the person giving the TED Talk that you said she did it 200 times and failed. Whereas I would ask, is it really failure? Is it data or information she's getting in order to get it to exactly where she wants to go?

26:21Preparation is everything. And here's the thought when it comes to audacious moves. I don't want anybody leaping off the cliff to, oh, I'm going to succeed at this. I'm going to put all my money in this and just jump into it. It's about the careful preparation. What are the steps I need to take in order to get there? What are the plans that the backup plans that could go? That for me is where all the good stuff is in terms of planning and preparing. When I go on air to call a game, because I'm still a working broadcaster for ESPN, people will see me on the air for two hours calling a basketball game, but it's been four days of preparation or researching, talking to coaches, talking to players, interviewing before I ever get on air for those two hours.

27:12The game itself, the speech itself, the cock is the reward. It's the preparation where you really dig in and grow the most. I completely agree with you. And as people have come on the podcast, I get a lot of people who say your interviews are different from everyone else's. And I say, well, that's on purpose because I try to do so much research that I don't want to have the same interview someone else has with a guest because then what's the point if they've already done it? My favorite thing is when I have a guest and I ask a question, I go, no one has ever asked that to me before. Yes, exactly.

27:51But it's not like Barbara Walters became Barbara Walters because she just came up with the questions on the fly before she had a guest. I have to imagine that she dedicated herself to the art of preparation to become the person that she was. And I think the same thing goes with anyone in their field. Absolutely. Barbara Walters, for example, and her team, careful preparation and then the ability after that to be flexible because you can prepare and have all your questions and then you get an answer you don't expect and you want to just stay with your questions. I see that all the time with the ability to be flexible.