Dr. Zoe Chance on How You Apply the Science of Winning Hearts | EP 523

29:52And to me, it's like courage. You can develop courage, even if it's not an inherent trait for you. What experiences for you led you to believe that influence could be taught?

30:09We're, I believe, influencing each other all the time. And I think part of what you're talking about is influencing people in the direction that we're trying or hoping to influence them. And I have been blessed to be teaching this course that I teach at Yale. It's called Mastering influence and persuasion for I think it might be now in its 12th year. It's so much fun. I got to invent it. This is what I believe I was born to do. And I get to watch over the course of this is a half semester course. So I have 150 students right now who are with me in seven weeks. And to see the transformations from the beginning to the end of what happens when we have this personal transformation that has us showing up differently in the world and then changes how the world reacts to us.

31:04The exercise, just as an example that students did this week, it's real world challenges for every single class. The one for yesterday was a game called Bigger and Better and you start with a paper clip and then you and a partner trade up as many times as you want for a week with anyone who's willing to trade with you for something bigger and better and bigger and better. The craziest, biggest, best thing has ended up being a Volkswagen Jetta that students got over a week and they gave it away to a refugee family and it was beautiful. Yesterday, the biggest, best thing or one of them was a pizza party for the entire class and a python in a jar.

31:46It's some kind of liquid. And somehow this happened from a combination effort of a pizza place and a tattoo parlor. But overall, what happened for these 150 students out in the world was that they were going out and they were sharing, here's a crazy idea. Would you like to play this game with us? And asking for something more than they can pay back in return. And then seeing how the world welcomed them and how so many people are open to being part of something that sounds cool and participating in a generous way. Then fast forwarding to students who have finished the class and gone out into the world and use these techniques.

32:29I hear back from former students all the time, like one of them is the domestic, has been the domestic climate chief of staff, and now she's Biden's special advisor on climate, running the White House climate team and saying, this is exactly how things are done in the White House. Another former student ended up changing the course of history in Tunisia, where he works, and influencing the democratic process there through all of these skills that he learned in the class. There's so many students who launch startups, nonprofits, and have better relationships that they tell me about. So this is, I guess that wasn't, how did I figure out that this could be taught?

33:13That was probably my own personal experience that I wanted to share and teach to other people. So I get it reinforced through this class every year. Well, those were some great examples of how important it is. And just for anyone who's listening, the red paperclip story is something that I covered on this podcast not too long ago, episode 471, Kyle McDonald story. And I did it on four ways to master creative thinking. But if you really think about it, what Kyle did is a masterclass and influence. It's so fun. I share the pictures and that story with my class. And then did you share on the podcast that when he gets the house, well, whatever, spoiler, when he gets the house, that the town of Kipling in Saskatchewan also makes him honorary major for a day.

34:00And they are a Guinness Book of World Records holding giant red paperclip statue that's still there, apparently, for anyone who wants to take a road trip. It's a masterclass on influence for sure. Well, absolutely. It is such a fun story and unbelievable story. Your book is really a masterpiece at understanding our inherent superpowers. In fact, the book is Influence is Your Superpower. And when I think about this as a superpower, I think there's a common misconception that people have about influence being an individual effort. How can we start shifting that mindset so that we realize it's really in our interconnectedness that our influence can change?

34:58If you're a nice person who doesn't think it would be good to study and practice the dark arts of interpersonal influence, I totally understand. And I don't blame you. And it's an indicator that unconsciously you're playing small. and in order to do anything more than you can easily through your individual effort accomplish we're going to have to influence other people and if you want to have more influence than you can as one human being it's definitely going to be by empowering other people maybe even by teaching other people some of the dark arts of influence, which might not be so dark. So if we're not trying to influence each other, and if we're not trying to study it and practice it, what happens, because influence is power, is that we're just leaving the world in the hands of the power-hungry people who have no reluctance to study and practice the arts of influence.

36:07So I think absolutely everyone who has a good heart needs to study this science. As I was studying for this and I was listening to some of the other podcasts you've been on, one of the things that you said during one of them really stood out to me. And I remember myself being in so many meetings throughout my career where as I look back now, Now, oftentimes, if I didn't think that I was an expert in the area or that it was my area that I was trying to influence, I would sit back and let the discussion play out. And what I noticed was that those who spoke up earliest in the discussion, whether their opinion was right or wrong, significantly influenced the direction that the rest of the meeting ended up going in.

37:05And it's something that you brought up that it's so vital to understand that if you want to influence something at work or could be even in a meeting, I don't want to say meeting, it could be you're just out with your friends and a topic comes up. jumping in early and expressing your idea early is vital. Can you just explore that a little bit more? It's similar to the psychological principle of the anchoring effect that some people interested in behavioral science have studied where, say, in a negotiation, whoever introduces a number first, it has a bit of a gravitational pull on the discussion of the range of what might be possible.

37:45And similarly, whoever joins or starts a conversation on the early side about an idea has this gravitational effect on where the conversation goes, what the direction is, and what might be possible or what might seem reasonable. Even deeper than this, another reason to speak up early as a practice in a conversation is so that you and other people register your own presence in this group. And you know how in group dynamics just is such that when we're talking to a group of people, we're not making eye contact with everyone. As the speaker, you rarely notice that. But as a listener, you definitely notice it if you're one of the people who is not getting eye contacted by the speakers.

38:35If that's been going on for a while, then it's harder for you to speak up. And then if you do speak up, people are like, oh, well, that person is here. Hey, Zoe. If you speak up earlier, people are looking at you when they're speaking. They're including you in the conversation. And it's easier for you to speak up later. so I would say if you have something to contribute to a conversation toward the beginning absolutely do it but also get in the practice of just speaking up early even if you don't have that great thing to say like asking a question or agreeing or disagreeing with something reacting to what somebody else says or being part of the chit chat before the meeting this is especially for introverts, especially for people in junior roles or people who just don't feel as comfortable.

39:26And behavioral introverts are people who think before they speak. And that includes anyone who's not super comfortable or anyone who is speaking a language that they're not completely, totally fluent in. So thank you for bringing up the timing again, John, and absolutely agree with you about speaking up early. So one of the things you asked me to do to make this a win for you was to bring up some practical examples for the audience to absorb so that they could picture themselves in these scenarios. The way I'm going to do this is I'm going to go through some of the core concepts of your book that I found, and I'm going to ask you about that core concept, let you explain it, and then I'm going to provide a scenario that we can discuss.

40:14One of the fascinating ideas in the book is that by making it okay for someone to say no, they're more likely to want to say yes. Can you explain how removing the pressure from a request can actually increase the chances of a positive response? Sure. And I'd like to start with a challenge for anyone who is joining us and listening to this conversation, which is the very first challenge that I offer students in my class. And I write about it in Influence is Your Superpower. And this is 24 hours of no. And that's 24 hours of you saying no to other people's invitations or requests so that you get to experience how much of a people pleaser you probably are.

40:59Most of us are more of a people pleaser than we thought. And also so that you can get some practice becoming more comfortable with saying no, especially saying no to the request without necessarily saying no to the person or the relationship. When we get comfortable saying no, we get comfortable with other people saying no to us. And when we're comfortable with the idea of other people saying no to us, then when we're asking them something or for something or making an invitation, we don't have pressure embedded in that request. We don't have neediness and that edge to our voice, which is repulsive.

41:42So pressure is repulsive because people don't want to be told what to do. They don't want their freedom to be restricted. And even if you're offering them something great, they want to say no or run away. Like in a study by one of my dissertation advisors, they literally had a table set up in the street in Boston. The sign says free money and they're giving away$50 bills. And some people are taking them and a bunch of people are crossing the street when they see the table with the sign because they think they're going to be pressured to do something. Asking without pressure has people feel that they have some agency and autonomy and they're more willing to consider a request.

42:23And asking without neediness has people feel that they can choose whether to say yes or no, and they're not going to feel guilty if they say no. So starting with you saying no, ending with other people saying yes to you, in an indirect and magical. Okay. Well, I love that explanation. Let's give a listener a scenario that they can put themselves in. And this is one I came up with because especially with the holiday season coming up, I think it's something that many people might face. So let's say a listener or a viewer is in a situation where they need to ask their manager for time off during a period of peak work and busyness.

43:08They know their boss might hesitate to approve it, but they really need that time off. How can they use this no pressure approach you talk about to make it easier for their boss to say yes? If you were coming to me and you wanted to ask your boss for time off during this peak period, I guess this is because you're asking your boss who definitely knows that they can say no and perhaps should say no-ish to you, I don't know that I would focus on trying to make it feel comfortable for them saying no because I don't know if that's going to make them more likely in this particular situation to want to say yes.

43:55I would use a different approach here if you don't mind and I would ask my boss. So I would do the reinforcing their autonomy, me acknowledging their freedom. So listen, I know there must be lots of other people asking for time off right now. And you probably have a lot of requests. I have this thing that's really important to me. And I'm just wondering, what would it take to make it possible for me to have time off at this point when other people wanted to? So in this case, I would probably suggest asking how could this happen to enlist the boss in creative problem solving rather than something like totally understand if it can't work I know lots of people are asking no pressure I would ask what would it take what do you think but maybe you have a better way of making it feel comfortable to say no than I was thinking that because you're so experienced in these arts?

44:56What do you think, John? To me, I guess it comes down to if I'm the person who's receiving this, is this person who's asking for time off someone who asks for a lot of time off? And is this a recurring pattern? Or is this someone who's one of my star employees who never takes time off, who all of a sudden needs it? And even though I need them during this busy time, it's probably better to reward them for it, to thank them for all the contributions that they've given, even if it's going to cost us some short-term headaches trying to figure out how to get through it. So I would, if they're that person, put themselves in the boss's shoes.

45:36But I would also say that the sooner you can get in for the request, the better, because a lot of times it's FIFO, first in, first out, when it comes to these things. Yeah. And if you're too late, you have lost the opportunity to even ask for it because there's not going to be a way for the boss to accommodate for you. Yeah. And it will count more and more the later you get what your reason is. And if you get that early, you don't need to have this most monumental reason behind you. Correct. So Zoe, in your book, you explain that influence doesn't work the way that most of us think because we don't think the way we think.

46:19And you break down two different concepts. You have a system one way of thinking and a system two way of thinking. And I was hoping you could go into what these two different ways of thinking are and why understanding them is essential to becoming more influential. Sure. And it might help if I then touch back on the mysteries at Mattel of why I was so uninfluential and people weren't doing what I thought they would do to make it concrete. These two systems, system one and system two, I use an analogy of a gator and a judge because it's just a little more concrete and memorable. System one and system two together are responsible for 100 % of our decisions and behavior.

47:08And the discipline of behavioral economics has discovered many ways in which thinking in terms of these two systems can predict anomalous behavior as well as normal behavior. System one is like an alligator. It is this unconscious primal system that takes no effort at all. And these are our snap judgments gut reactions, emotions are here, anything that through practice becomes habitual, essentially effortless. And this is our dominant mode guiding our decisions and behavior. Because we're not conscious of it, we just don't notice that this is happening. But this system is relatively effortless.

47:54The other system too is like a judge, where it's like a human judge carefully weighing evidence, pro and con, and second guessing the first response of the gator. However, this system takes a lot of mental bandwidth. It's our conscious attention. We can only focus on one case at a time. And so we're not using this taxing system if we don't need to. And this is where when we're trying to influence someone, timing matters a lot because their conscious mind is always already busy. The system also is influenced by the snap judgments and habits, biases of the gator part. When I was at Mattel and I didn't understand about kids and the Barbie brand, I mentioned that the gator is lazy and the gator part of us is most biased toward doing things that are easy.

48:49Anything that adds friction really reduces the likelihood that someone will take action. So these little girls, for example, these girls who wanted to have Barbie weddings and they did have Barbie weddings, it was just much easier to have a mermaid and a dog than to use all of the play set stuff that we were selling them. And with the girls getting a little bit older who were playing with Barbie like weird Barbie, they said that Barbie was a fashion model, but then the reason she wasn't wearing any clothes is that if you've ever played with Barbie, you just can't get her clothes back on after you get them off because she has these stiff arms and stiff legs and you just can't pull them on.

49:26So there was really no mystery there. And then when I was failing to persuade senior leadership at Mattel about my great ideas and new product lines, it was that I was jumping to try to persuade the judge part with all of these facts and figures, careful analysis and evidence before going through the gatekeeper of the gator and having them be interested in my great idea in the first place. So people won't be persuaded by information very often at all, and they won't even pay attention to the information until they're already interested. And at that point, they have a hypothesis. So a lot of what I teach and write about is about influencing that gator unconscious piece of us.

50:14Okay. So let's do a scenario around this. Let's say a listener is a salesperson, something we talked about before, and they're trying to pitch a new product to a potential client who seems really skeptical about it. Instead of relying solely on facts and data, how can they use what you just taught about system one thinking to appeal to the client's gut reactions and make their pitch more compelling. So in this particular case where you say that the client is skeptical, when we have some disagreement or some resistance, this is usually the threat detection system of the gator part. And the threat detection system in all of us is overactive.

51:02this system is constantly scanning the environment for opportunities and threats like a gator lurking beneath the surface of the water the threats are much more important than the opportunities because if you miss an opportunity you might go hungry if you miss a threat you might die when you're trying to influence someone you're very likely a threat maybe it's a threat to their time or their attention, maybe some resources or social capital, but very often what people perceive is that you're a threat to their freedom. So if somebody has resistance for whatever reason to whatever your great idea is, that person is going to need to feel heard before they're even able to listen.

51:48So in a one-on-one conversation like a sales conversation, it can sound like witnessing and exploring their resistance. I've shared with you my great idea, John, and it might be that you're just like, and I would say, you're looking a little skeptical and just leave it open for you to share this with me. So you're telling me something you don't like about my idea. And I say, really, really tell me more about that. I might say, wow, it sounds terrible. Is there anything else? Is there anything else that makes you want to think twice or 20 times about the idea of doing this together before we were to collaborate?

52:30So if I let you get out all of the objections, concerns, resistance that you might have, at that point, when you know that I've heard you and I've understood and I really get you, and I'm not just blithely marching ahead telling you my product features, like I really get what you don't like or what your concerns are, then you will be able to listen if I say something like all of these concerns that you've just shared with me, I get it. They're totally valid and I would feel certainly the same way that you do if I were in your situation. I believe though that there's something that I haven't shared with you yet that is going to make you excited about this possibility.

53:17It might still not be something that you're interested in, but would you like to hear this one piece that you don't know yet? Just as an example. So if I offer to share with you something that now that I know you, I think that you might, in fact, with more information feel differently. So witnessing resistance before pressing forward with trying to influence somebody is super important. And if they're not resistant, then it's probably the gator part is just a matter of building rapport. Right? We're getting to know each other a little bit, smiling, we find something in common. Then the gator part is saying, oh, I like John, and I'm interested in something that John might have to say.

54:02Would you agree with that from your experience? I guess I would. Again, it comes all the way back to my time when I was at Anderson and thinking about the buyer and being in their shoes, because most of them, especially if they didn't know you, because where I was doing this was in Houston. What I found about Houston is they were great at giving you initial meetings, but they wouldn't buy from you unless they knew you. So they were inherently skeptical. So you had to break through that skepticism and earn their trust before they were going to do anything with you. Absolutely. Would it be helpful if I shared a relevant strategy for influencing groups when you anticipate some resistance?

54:48I think that would be a great one. Can I give you a scenario? Oh, sure. Right. Let's say a listener is leading a team and they want to encourage their colleagues to adopt a new workflow or tool. However, they're encountering resistance because people feel overwhelmed by the learning curve. I think this is something a lot of people probably experience. How would you advise that they get their colleagues on board? It's a miserable situation to be in. And I was recently coaching someone in a big tech company who was running a team that had this exact problem. When you have a group who needs to be brought on board with a great idea, to even say, try this as a pilot, I recommend a strategy based on the Japanese principle of Nemawashi, which is consensus building or cultivating the roots.

55:40And this is the really influential practice of having key pre-meetings before the meeting. And it's most important to be meeting with people who might have some resistance or that they have some resistance to this idea. So it could be people who don't like you or your team. It could be people who've already voiced some objections to this idea. And it also can always be people who would have to actually implement this idea. So when you're sharing your idea in a pre-meeting with people who are resistant, you're sharing the bare bones version and you're asking their advice about solving any concerns that they come up with.

56:24And you're just witnessing and exploring resistance like I talked about. In the pre-meetings, by the way, I also recommend that you, if you can, have a conversation with any of the most powerful decision makers or people who the group is going to look to for their thoughts. And also with people who are allies who could support you. When you talk to the people with political power and status decision making, also ask their advice about the politics. When you talk to allies, also ask if they'll support you in the meeting. When you then share your idea in the meeting, the people who had all of these concerns have already shared them with you.

57:03So they're not needing to be one of those first few people to speak in the meeting and get the concern out there because you get to be the person to share it. You get to frame it in a way that's helpful. For example, I'm going to share this new process that we have a new tool, which I think is going to make a huge difference for us in terms of productivity. And when I was talking to John earlier, John had some concerns about the amount of effort, for example, that it's going to take and the amount of time that it will take, some logistics, which are going to be really important for us to figure out.

57:35And I have some ideas about that. And when I'm sharing this and I'm voicing John's concern, then typically John in this meeting is nodding, which looks like agreement, which might be like, yes, I agree with how bad this idea is. But I've brought John on to be a collaborative member of the team. And also when you had pre-meetings with these people, you shared the bare bones idea to leave some low hanging fruit so that other people can be contributing their thoughts that you will take action on if they're helpful. So your whole idea is better. And then you now have this collaborative team where all of these people have contributed to it.

58:14So handling resistance in a group is pre-meeting with individuals and hearing the resistance so that it doesn't get aired so much in that big group. And then quickly, Zoe, because I know we're running out of time, there's one last scenario I wanted to give you. One of my favorite takeaways from your work is that authentic lasting influence is not something achieved by individuals alone, which is something we talked about earlier in the episode. It's a collective effort, a group project, as you put it. So let's say a listener is trying to launch a community initiative to address something that we really need today, like environmental sustainability in their local area.

58:53They know they can't do it alone, but they're unsure how to get others involved. How can they use this concept of collective influence to bring together a group of people and build momentum around the cause? Thank you for asking that. And it's one of the most challenging aspects of influence is trying to influence a group of people to change their behavior, especially when like in the climate or sustainability example, we don't have short term benefits to offer them. First of all, the broad perspective that influencing groups of people will always start with influencing individuals and a lot of individual personal contact.

59:39Interpersonal influence always takes a lot of work. And identifying people who already care about the topic and helping mobilize and motivate them to take action will always be easier and more effective than trying to influence people who don't care or people who disagree to change their mind and take action. So often behavior is easier to influence than minds or mental perspectives. What I would suggest for a group of people trying to do something like help with sustainability is build momentum by focusing on one very specific high reward effort. A lot of times what that looks like is policy.

1:00:27So intervening to try to influence policy in your own organization or policy in your community or influencing policymakers. And that's something that we feel like it's not my job. to make policy, but this is where all of us can have a bigger effect than most of the rest of our life. Well, Zoe, it was such an enjoyable conversation today. Can you give the listeners a central place that they can go if they want to learn more about your work and purchase your book? Sure. My book is available in 28 languages and most places you can buy books. So I told you Gator is really lazy. The easiest thing that you can do is go to Amazon, find Influence as Your superpower.

1:01:09And you can find me, connect with me and more information at zoechance.com. Thank you so much for this conversation, John, and for the interesting topics that you brought. And I appreciate the work and the preparation that you had to do in order to bring these concrete examples and tie it to my work. And I'm just delighted and charmed to meet you. So thank you. Thank you so much. It was my honor to have you on. Wow. What an incredible conversation that was with Dr. Zoe chance. We uncovered the secrets of interpersonal influence. We learned how to harness the superpower and to make meaningful change in our lives and the world around us.

1:01:45From negotiating with confidence to spotting manipulators, Zoe has given us tools to change our approach to how we influence others. One key takeaway from today's episode is that influence is not about manipulation or control. It's about genuine connection and aligning with others to create positive outcomes. The next time that you find yourself in a situation where you need to influence someone, think about how you can connect with them on a deeper level. Whether it's raising funds for a cause, negotiating a deal, or simply communicating better with a loved one, use your influence as a force for good.

1:02:19As always, links to everything that we discussed here today, including Zoe's book, Influence is Your Superpower, can be found in the show notes at passionstruck.com. If you're inspired to grab a copy of Zoe's book or that of other guests that we featured on the show, please do so by going to the links that we feature in the show notes or in my recommended book list. And if you want to watch today's episode, then you can go to YouTube and watch it on our two channels, our main channel, John R. Miles, and our clips channel, Passion Struck Clips. So be sure to subscribe and join over a quarter million other subscribers.

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1:03:27For those of you who are interested in having me speak at your company or event, whether it's a keynote, a workshop, or a panel discussion. I'd love to explore how we can work together. Head over to johnrmiles.com slash speaking. More interesting ideas on the topics I can cover and ways that we can inspire your organization. Before we wrap up, I am excited to share a sneak peek of our next episode. I'll be sitting down with Dr. Susan Grah, soul healer and intuitive medium who has experienced the afterlife firsthand through near-death experience. We'll explore her journey, spiritual guidance, and what the afterlife can teach us about healing and connection.

1:04:02You won't want to miss this powerful conversation. Our soul wants expansion. It craves it. But the most important expansion is love. Love is the hierarchy. Love takes us to source. The more we love, the higher we vibrate. And so our goal is to have self-love. Love of self is so important, love and knowledge, and gaining the ability to have unconditional love, which I don't know a human on this planet that has that our brain gets in the way, but our souls are teaching us through love and then experiences. And remember that we rise by lifting others. If you found Zoe's insights valuable, or you're excited about what's coming up, share the show with someone who could benefit from it.

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