“Why Did You Kill My Father?” — Ex-Mafia Underboss Reveals the Call | PBD Podcast #865

0:00They might be panicking about me. They may say, let's take this mother out. I would advise them, make sure you don't miss. Did Gravano tell you how he became a rat? Why were you upset with me sitting with Junior? I wouldn't sit with him for no money. What is it going to be, an argument? You want to talk? Go sit with Patrick Bet-David and talk? Say the f***ing truth. Talk. Don't lie to him because he's got a big file and you want to get your f***ing voice out. I think the world would want to see this sit down. John Gotti was acquitted on racketeering charges. He sat down with the government. I certainly wasn't going to go to prison on him, using my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers to back the government's case.

0:47What the f*** is that? If that's not a rat move, I don't know what is. And I don't give a f*** what your story is. This is how ice cold Sammy is. How capable he is that he'll take a 16-year-old's life. That's what they would say about you. He made it sound like some 16-year-old kid is coming home with his f***ing books. We gunned him down for no f***ing reason. I confess to everything I did. So I'm not saying I'm not part of this hit. I'm pinched he's part of the 19 murders. Did any family member ever confront you? One day my phone rang and he says, Is this Sammy? I said yes. And he says, Why did you kill him?

1:26I said, I'm going to tell you the whole story. Don't interrupt. Don't hang up. He knew exactly what that meant. Did the mob ever use the word 86? Anybody who said this says Patrick is dumb is f***ing crazy. Because look at what he's doing. He's trying to make me talk. I'm asking you a question about 8. I'm doing math. Have you and Colmey ever been in the same room? What do you mean? Dinner, playing cards, domino, chess. What was the occasion? I can't tell you. I mean, I tell you, this guy's brilliant. You've never talked about this with Comey, though. The stuff from the 90s, you've never talked about that.

2:07Now you got me and everybody else watching curious. I want everything to come out the truth. I want to leave my life what I was. Before, in the middle, after. because I think I owe that to my people who love me and around me, friends that I care about.

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3:22Thank you so much. So today we have a very famous YouTuber here with us, big YouTuber, Sammy DeBogravano. It's great to have you here. My pleasure. Maybe you were known for something else back in the days, but today YouTuber, content creator. Can you imagine how you're a YouTuber? Sometimes I can't even believe it. I'm publicly talking. I'm in shock. I never talked, especially when I got in the mob. You know, you're supposed to be quiet. I never talked. Now I'm talking all over the place. You know, a lot of times when people tell me, he says, how is Sammy a YouTuber? And I say, listen, the world's a safer place with Sammy doing YouTube.

3:54You want Sammy as a YouTuber. You want him as a content creator, not anything else. But about a year, year and a half ago, I'm doing a podcast with this one guy. I don't know if you know him or not. His name is John. And after I do this podcast with him, just sit down with him. Next thing you know, my insurance company calls me, my life insurance, say, listen, we're worried about your health and your life. I said, tell me why. He says, because there's this guy who reacted to your sit down with John Jr. named Sammy DeBogravan who is furious with you. Why were you upset with me sitting with Junior?

4:24Me? Yeah. Here's the reason why. I'm going to tell you the reason. I listened to the interview. I listened to you a lot. Not all the time, but a lot. Most of the time. You were the first person I actually ever did a live interview with, if you remember. Of course. So I listened to you a lot. We have a good relationship. But John Jr. was telling you things that were completely so fake. It was incredible. And I know you have the capability of doing a fact check. I saw you in battles with, who's the guy who used to show himself to young girls? Wiener, Anthony Wiener. Anthony Wiener. And you battle it out.

5:04I said, this guy doesn't realize. Patrick went to Florida. I said, one guy says, what if he hits Patrick? I said, are you crazy? If he hit Patrick, Patrick's going to wipe the floor with him. I said, it's not even a match. But anyway, he's telling you that I wasn't in the car with John Gotti when we killed Castellano. Now, that's so crazy. Why would I admit to that, number one? Number two, the NYPD did their own investigation. We were in the car together. The feds did it. We were in the car together. They did all kinds of research, everybody. And they were there. Now, when I went on trials with the feds, they never wanted to get caught in a lie.

5:55So anytime I said anything in a trial, they always just jumped all over it and checked it every which way you can because they don't want to get caught in a lie or blow the case that they're working on. and 100 % of the times I came up exactly what it was. I did the Johnny Keys hit a long time ago. So it's a great story. They did research on it. They checked it. There's even guys in his crew, when we left before he got killed, who cooperated later and told the same exact story I told years ago. So I don't lie about these stories. I don't exaggerate. I tell it like it is. So this kid, to say I wasn't in the car with his father, and his father swore on his dead son.

6:56Now, I think that's so brutal to say that. The same thing when they killed a neighbor. He literally swore on his dead father. son, the father, told him this, this, that. So you're making your father a liar. People know that if that's what he told you, he was lying. And to swear on his dead son, you made him look even worse. You're not helping him by doing that. You could say he did it. And I don't understand why he would say, I wasn't in that thing. So what do you think his outcome is of saying you're not in that thing? Is he trying to say you're not as tough? You're not as involved. You were not involved in a big hit.

7:37Like, what's the big deal of him saying that? I don't know. In his thing, everything he could say is to make me look like a liar or to put me down like I wasn't what I was supposed to do. I mean, you even got them now saying that, well, John was going to kill him, meaning me. Now, John was on tape telling guys in the car, there's a tape. You can look it up. is that if I'm not around, Sammy's the boss. So he's saying that to his people, doesn't know he's on tape, and you're saying he was going to kill me? It's ridiculous to say that. I mean, you could say a lot of things, I guess, and I could understand a kid hears things about his father, wants to say something positive about his father.

8:34But to lie over and over and over and over again, look, they did the Gotti movie with the son. Every single something mashed potatoes or sweet potatoes or whatever, everybody evaluates the show, gave it a zero. and because that he got caught in 50 million lives when a guy comes out of the dark and shoots this guy who was a kidnapper they made the father do that the father didn't do that he didn't do it there was another guy who did that so you and John you and Junior haven't spoken no when's the last time the two of you guys spoke

9:21actual last time you spoke before i before i cooperate before you cooperate yes so we're talking 40 years 30 years yeah yeah 30 something years 30 something years yeah 40 years and your interaction with him was it like an uncle nephew type of relationship what was the relationship with you and junior no i didn't even have a relationship with him so how many times have you met him how many times did you meet junior i met him a bunch of times that he was around his dad and stuff. I was the guy who made him. Him and Mikey Scars. John came to me. I was already I think the underboss when he got made.

9:58And he said, Sammy, it's nepotism if I make my own son. I'm going to make there's going to be eight, nine guys. You do the ceremony and you make them. And one of them was Mikey Scars. One of them was his son. So I said, okay, I made them. Later on, he wanted to make his son a captain. And that bothered a lot of people. But he's the boss. And I went down with Frankie Lacasio and made him a captain. Now, the kid had people around him who, even John Gotti, again, is on tape. And he's saying, my son has got these weird names. Where's he getting these kids? Who are these kids? A-Light is one of them and a whole bunch of kids.

10:48So, and John is disturbed at the people that he's running with. And then a hit that took place, it was about Frankie LaCasse. It was about Louis De Bono got hit. You want to hear that? Louis De Bono, I had a clash with him earlier in life. They separated us. he, his captain, asked for my life. Paul didn't give it to him. They broke us up. Same family. Same family. Before the head on Castellano. Now, later on, when Castellano was done, Frankie DiCicco got killed. Joe Piney, we, me and John, said, Piney, let him take Frankie's spot. Shooting has started. Everybody's shaking. he's an old timer and he could cause them to relax and we used him

11:49they turn around and he's just doing things and he tells me one day Sammy I'd like you to go partners with Louis De Bono because John needs a place where he's going to show making money and stuff like that so I said I had a bad beef with him. I don't want to be partners with him. He said he will never do it anymore. He's got a history of that, but he won't do it no more. You're in big action now. Number one, John is the boss here, and the two he is will be partners with him. He'll never do anything like that. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new.

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14:31per month required. Intro rate first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. Is Louis a made man? Is he a cop? Or what's his rank? He's a made guy. So nothing big yet. He's just a made guy. Yeah, he's a made guy. Louis. And is he an earner? Is he bringing money in? Is he somebody that's a performer? No, not really. I mean, he brings some things in. That's him. And anyway, he convinces me to go partners with him. I go partners with him, and he does the same thing. And we're doing a job with him. See, he was a union contractor.

15:12He could bid a job, get the job as a union contractor. Then he'd give it to me. I was non-union. The union won't bother me. I could get away with it. So instead of him paying like$30 an hour for union guys, I'm now paying$18 an hour for non-union. I give him like$22. So instead of paying$30, he's paying$22. Saving$8. Saving$8 an hour with the workers, one. Two, I'm doing it. My workers are earning, and I'm stopping the union from bothering you. So everything is going to work. So it's working, and one day I'm in my office with my brother-in-law, Eddie Garofalo, and we're talking and we're losing money and I don't get it.

16:02So I sit down with this guy, Joey Madonia, who was our partner in this drywall business I had with him and my brother-in-law. And we're trying to figure out how are we losing money? Why? So we're looking through the supplies and everything and I look at a sheet of drywall, four by 10. How much is that? Wow. That seems like a big number. And I said to my brother, call this lumberyard up. Tell him that you're a sucker right off the street. You own a house. You want to buy eight, ten sheets of sheetrock. You're not going to get no discounts. You're not going to get none. How much is a sheet for you as a nobody?

16:50He gets the number. It's seven and change. I'm paying nine, ten and change. And I'm buying thousands of sheets of yard drywall. I says, there it is. We're being robbed right there. So I says, Eddie, go to the place, the lumberyard, and bring the guy in here. I want to talk to him. He comes in. De Bono. No, the lumberyard guy. I bring him in, and I sit down. And I said, listen, I want to ask you some questions. I want you to tell me the truth. I'm not going to hurt you, but I want the truth. And I'm going to warn you this. I know a lot of the answers. So he says, all right, all right, and he's nervous.

17:37He knows who you are. Yeah. Okay. And is he a De Bono guy? No, he's just a lumberyard. No, owns the lumberyard. He owns the lumberyard. Yeah. What's his relationship with De Bono? I'm going to tell you. Okay. So anyway, we start talking, and I said, I had my brother called your lumber yard, and he got a price of seven and change aboard. Like a sucker. He's going to buy five, six sheets of... He said, yeah, that's the price. I'm buying thousands of sheets, and I'm getting wholesale prices, and I'm paying$2,$3 a sheet more. How is that possible? He said, Sammy, you said to do that. I said to do that?

18:33Yeah, your partner's with the bono, right? Yeah. He said the bono owes me$600 ,000 or$700 ,000 in previous work and tells this guy, overcharge on every sheet, whatever you make on that, deduct it from what I owe. Got it. So he used your relationship to pay off his$600 ,000 of debt. Yes. So every time I'm working with him. And this is the De Bono guy. He's the same guy that worked on the World Trade Center. His construction company apparently worked on the World Trade Center, and he was found killed in the garage or something like that? Yes. Okay. Yes. So I told John, I said, Joe Paine and John, he's robbing us.

19:20He's robbing us. So John don't want to hear it. He says, well, I don't think so. Well, here it is in black and white. He says, I'm going to look into it. So he looks into it, and the guy's robbing us. He tells his son, John Jr., kill him. You have the contract. You're a captain now. Bobby Borrello and a few guys. that John put with him. He's got a team that can do this. Kill him. The kid goes out. He's looking for him. Can't find him nowhere. He's out of the country now. John tells me and Frankie LaCasio. He's out of the country. He's on tape when we got arrested. The only reason I killed Louis De Bono is that what Sammy said.

20:22He's blaming. No, John Senior. Senior. He's on tape saying that. So, and with all these other people. And I'll give you that too. So anyway, we can't get him. I go and I go to Joey Madonia. I had give him the company, walked away from the company because I got a bigger position. I said, you let me in when I was down. I'm up. I can't really work with you that much anymore. So the company is yours. If I could recommend a job to you, just make sure I get an envelope. But the company is yours. So now I see Joey Madonia again and he tells me, Sammy, if you can get me some drywall work off of Louis De Bono, he's got a couple of billion dollars worth of work that he's going to get.

21:21Really a billion? Billion. And this is what year? 80 what? 80? In the 80s when he dies. So he's a big timer. He's doing a big job. Oh yeah. I was doing$5 million jobs. The World Trade Center, he did the World Trade Center. He was one of the guys involved in building the World Trade Center? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the mafia was involved in building the drywall of the World Trade Center. Yeah, without a doubt. If it went to Louis de Bono, that was me too, and we were doing it. So anyway, I said, he's out of the country. He doesn't know what's going on, that we're going to kill him. So I said, he's out of the country, Joey.

22:02If he comes back, when he comes back, I'll talk to him. If I can get a job, I'll bring it over to you. He tells me, he says, no, Sammy, he's not out of the country. What are you talking about? He says he's in the World Trade Center, in his office every day. I said, are you sure? He said, Sammy, he parks right in the World Trade Center with his car on the back, on the plate. It says the Bono. That's where he parks every day. Which building? He tells me the building. I'm dumbfounded, Pat. Okay. As soon as I talk to him, if I could get some work, I'll send it. Of course, he's not in the life. He's a legitimate kid.

22:49I don't tell him nothing. He's not a kid. He's a man. So anyway, I leave. And I'm with big Louis Valerio. And we're driving down New York to go to John's Club. We stop at a place, a restaurant, near the Royal Trade Center. and I have to get these guys, one of the guys working for me, give him an envelope to bring to another family to give them the envelope from us. So he says, okay. He says, Sammy, you know, see, the World Trade Center was under construction. And he says, you see this dirt parking lot? You know, I have that. It's expensive to park in there. I park cars here. I'm making a bundle.

23:43Wow, it sounds good. He said, the boner is a friend of ours, right? Meaning a made guy. I said, yeah, yeah, of course. You know, he's parking in the World Trade Center, and I can make him park here. I'll charge him almost nothing.

24:02I said, where does he park? And he tells me the same. Place. Basement. Basement, garage. In the garage. Yeah. And he says, okay, great. Of what building? So I said, okay, great. I appreciate it. I'll get back to you. Of course, he doesn't know, so I don't tell him either. I get in the car, and we go down to New York. Frankie Lucasio is there. He knows what's going on a little bit. He's with the family as well? Yeah. He's, yeah. Is he a heavyweight? The concierge. Okay. So I said, and he knows what's going on, but he don't know what I just found out. So I go down and I take a walk with Frankie.

24:48I said, listen to this. John Jr. He's got the contract. He's swearing to us that he's out of country. He's fracking him out of the country. He's fucking right in the World Trade Center in his own office every day. and he's parking in the World State, building whatever, one, two, whatever it was. And his car has the Bono on the back. Frankie DelCascio is blown away. Oh, my God. His car has the Bono on the license plate? Yeah, the license plate says the Bono. Isn't that a bad move for a mobster to put your name on a leg? He's half a legitimate guy, half a mobster. Yeah, it's not a good move. But anyway, that's what he's got.

25:30Super wealthy guy. This guy's got money. Yeah, a ton of money. And so Frankie tells me, he says, Sammy, what are you going to do? When John gets here, I'm going to tell him. This kid don't even know what the fuck he's talking about. He's in fucking Europe. He's tracking him in Europe. He's fucking right here, a couple of miles away from where we are right now. Standing. Sure enough, that's all Frankie knows. LaCasio. At this point, does Frankie trust you more? Is he John's guy or is he your guy? Well, he's both of our guys. But is he more 70-30 John? Maybe. Okay. Maybe. But we're talking about a situation that has nothing to do with our relationship.

26:14So John comes and I tell him just what I told you. Senior. Senior. I said, he's there. He looks at me like, I can't be. My son is tracking him. bro do you want me to take care of this I know where he's parking and where he is you want me to take care of it he'll be dead tomorrow no no I'll take care of this okay he takes care of it that he gives his son a hollering like what the fuck you were bringing in information here's where he is I know where he is He's in the World Trade Center, this parking, da-da-da-da-da. That's where it is. Get Bobby Oriello, and I forget the other guy's name right now.

27:08Get them to kill this guy. Charles something. Charlie Canisi. Yes, yes. Get them to kill the guy right away. Now, we look like jerks. And he, to me, and to Frankie LaCasse. Mm-hmm. Now, maybe a week went by. They get another guy, an Irish kid. And they go in the World Trade Center, in the spot, in the place, and they kill him. Exactly in that parking spot. Exactly in that building. Exactly what I was telling them. and lo and behold the Irish kid I can't think of his name but you can look him up he cooperates after and tells the story of it

28:03so who is he with if he's Irish he was probably with either Charlie Kinnig or the other guy but he's now of course as an Irish, you're not tied to the mob. You may be a street guy, but you're not tied to, you're not part of the family. You could be tied to the mob, but you're not a maid guy. Got it. And maybe he's making his bones, he's doing a hit, but whatever, he winds up flipping. How quickly does he flip? I don't remember, but it took a while, but it was, he's the guy who put it on record on who did what. And he knows Junior's involved. He knows where the orders came from. He knows all of it.

28:41He knows the whole thing. Yeah. and he knows that these guys, Bobby Borrello and Gene and this kid are going to take care of it. I don't know who shoots what and how who does what. I don't know. I never ask. The next time I hear about this, it's on tape where he's complaining about me. And Frankie Lacasio is charged with the murder. Now, Frankie Lacasio did nothing. He knew what was going on. It wasn't part of the murder in any way, shape, or form. I cooperated. I leave. I tell the government the story. Frankie Lucasio is pitched, and they're going to go on trial. I cooperated. I left. I don't want to go through that whole story again.

29:37But I...

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31:42Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6 '10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your Call your card today on Caravana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Caravana.com. Left. What does left mean? I left them all. I cooperated. Okay. I'm gone. So this is all happening at the same time? Yeah, after. Okay. In stages. What's the timeline? What's the timeline?

32:18Well, I cooperated, what, in 81? Okay. Something like that. When did this happen? You cooperated 81, but when did the Bono, when did that happen, when he got killed? A year before that? A year before that, 89. Can you check to see when he got killed? When did De Bono get killed? What's the exact amount? I'm trying to see the timeline of how quickly those things go together. So 1990. Yeah. And you cooperate what year, 89? In 91. One. Okay, got it. So a little less than a year later. Okay.

32:57I'm really trying to see where you're going with it. Yeah, here's where I'm going. is that we lost our lawyers in the case, and we were going to replace them. F. Lee Bailey was going to represent John. We had a meeting, a co-meeting. We were all in the meeting, and F. Lee Bailey says, John, you're all over this tape. You killed this guy, you killed that guy, you did this, that, and the other thing. you destroy Sammy on this tape. You can't beat this case. I could maybe try to make a plea agreement. He says, no, I have an idea. And F. Lee Bailey tells him, what's your idea? I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus.

33:51F. Lee Bailey leaves, never comes back. years later, Jerry Capice is talking to me. You know who Jerry Capice is? He's talking to me and he says, Sammy, I was out of prison a long time. He says, are you sitting down? I said, what happened? He said, F. Lee Bailey came in and did an interview with me, and I asked him, why do you represent John? Why did you leave and never go back? He said, I wanted nothing to do with setting up Sammy or Frankie Alicacio. F. Lee Bailey said this. F. Lee Bailey. You know who's the first person I ever interviewed on Valuetainment? Ever? F. Lee Bailey. And he was great.

34:38And that's what he said. And you can check that with Jerry Capici. Huh. Because he wrote an article about it. Yeah. And he tells me that. And I said, wow, this is unbelievable how this whole thing is coming together. So what has happened to a junior? So this is nothing. He couldn't even do a fucking hit. It was right under his nose. And he's lying about that the guy's fucking. You were not in the car, Castellano, all of that. All these things, he's so fucking full of shit. That's why I wouldn't sit with him for no money. What is it going to be, an argument? He says he won't sit with me. I wouldn't sit with him.

35:21But that would tie the whole thing up. if the two of you guys sat down. Yeah. And I wonder when I sit there and think about it, who is less likely to do it? Obviously, I've asked Johnny. I've asked Junior, even then, when we went back and forth. Right. But I've talked to the family, and you know I've spent time with them, and we had the conversation. I think the world would want to see the sit-down. Now, whether that happens or not, who knows? That's a different conversation. Yeah. You wouldn't do it, though? No, I wouldn't do it. Now, he said I wouldn't do it if my mind gets it right. He says I wouldn't sit with him, meaning me, if you gave me a million dollars, right?

36:06Well, I wouldn't do it if you gave me$750 ,000. But if you gave me a million, I might do it. That is so funny. I would do it. So I don't know if I would do that. I mean, he lies like, well, what's the sense of him lying? But, you know, it was kind of like when you and Michael sat down together. One of the most special conversations was when Mario and I are sitting there and you and Michael are going back and forth. You know which one I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. We weren't even face-to-face. We were on a Zoom or something like that because Mafia States was coming out. But you know what it was?

36:41It was like, boom, gone, moved on. Everybody went to the next story. And people get to pick and choose. Very few people are going to be like, you know, if I'm a Sammy guy, I'm a Sammy guy. If I'm a junior guy, I'm going to stay a junior guy. It's not going to change much. Maybe the 5%, 10 % are going to be in the middle to say, I side with Sammy, I side with Junior. But I think for the sake of the history books, it would be a good conversation to see the two of you guys sit down together. And if it does ever happen, I know one good guy who would do one hell of a job. Not two of them. I know one guy only.

37:09And you know that guy. Yeah, I think I do. You know what I'm saying. There's only one guy that could do that. Yeah, well, I think I could do that with him. You know, he even said in one of his things that he quit the life. He didn't want to be part of the life. He sat down with the government. There's people now talking about him. He cooperated. You sit with the government and you proffer. You know what that is. Come on. You sit down with the government, you proffer. You talk about you're a made guy. You this, you that. Maybe he never took the stand. Probably. But you profit. You sat and you talked with you.

37:49You know, you could say Joe Blow is a drug dealer. That's all. You're not going to take the stand. You're not going to do anything. Right? Now, all of a sudden, the government's watching Joe Blow. Sooner or later, a year goes by, Joe Blow gets pinched. He doesn't even know how. Why? Because he don't know what somebody said, and it's never been released. And that's just what he did. So he's an informant just like anybody else is an informant. He can say whatever he wants to say. You know, a lot of guys don't like that. I hate that fucking label. But I know I'm stuck with it because of what I did.

38:30Now, some people say, I don't blame you. I would do the same thing. But it's still, no matter what, that's the label that you get stuck with. And I'm stuck with it. I'm not proud of it. I don't like it. I never liked it. but I certainly wasn't going to go to prison on him using my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers to back the government's case. The government puts out a case to put me away. We fight it. We do whatever we got to do. He's backing it. I'm not going to say that John got, he's a rat. I'm not going to say that, but what the fuck is that? If that's not a rat move, I don't know what is.

39:15you're going to actually have my lawyer and all the rest of the lawyers turn around and say, you heard the government's tapes and what the government's saying. Poor John Gotti. It's not him. You hear him complaining about Sammy. Sammy's the guy who did all these things. Now, I'm part of them. No question about it. I cooperated. I confess to whatever I did in those things. But to say, I mean, some of the things he said were just so outlandish. He even talked about when his father, not his father direct, but gave orders to kill the guy who killed his son in a car accident. And I heard John Jr. say, well, that's my dad.

40:10If you hurt our family, it's what he's going to do. He didn't say he didn't do it. He admitted he did it. And I don't give a fuck what your story is. This is an innocent guy who was in a car accident. He didn't mean to kill the kid. Now, I'm sure I would be sick if that happened to my son. But my son did get hit by a car. Same as your son. He didn't die. The neighbor was petrified. I told Luis Ascenti, bring that guy over to me. The guy came to me. I said, I hear you're worried about me. About what? It was a car accident. Did you hit my son on purpose? No. Then why are you worried? When John told me about the guy, the accident, I had told him, John, I loved him like a brother.

41:01Don't do this, bro. He's a legitimate guy. It was a car accident. People love you. If you kill this guy, people are going to hate you. You can't kill an innocent guy in a car accident. He came to your fucking house to apologize. You can't kill this guy. But he did it anyway. He went on vacation with his wife. And I think you know that story. It's no news to you. And he twisted it that, oh, my father, that's him. Then you called your father a monster. Not me. You did. You know what they would say if they were sitting here? They would ask you a question you're not going to like. Yeah, go ahead. Either Junior or the sister or any one of them.

41:46Then because when I had you on the first time, they attacked or she attacked me nonstop and said, why don't you ask him about the 16-year-old innocent boy that Alan, you know, Kaiser, you know, why don't you ask him about that? Sammy wants to act like, what do we do? How about the guy? He shouldn't have taken that person out. He was a kid, right? Or the brother-in-law. That's an ice-cold killer. That's what the sister would say. If they were sitting here. I get it. But first of all, I did answer that. I did not shoot him. I'm on the hit and I'm responsible for the hit. But I, all I said is that when we went, we were looking for the other guy.

42:30I forgot his name. And we were hunting him. He came out of the house with this kid. They make him, he's coming home with school books under his arm. That's all bullshit. he came out with his kid the kid the 16 mile kid wasn't a target he was nothing I had to cast my entire foot all the way up to my thigh my leg was broken in three places now when we seen the kid come back out the guy we were going to shoot Louie Molino had a shotgun on his lap I had a pistol laying in the back seat

43:12and Tato's nephew was driving. I said, Louie, the door is opening. Just open your window and tell him, we're lost. Where is Avenue P? We were on Kings Highway. Where's Avenue P? The plan was when he walks over to give you advice on how to get to Avenue P, I will come up and I will shoot him right in his fucking face. And I will kill him. This is the guy who jumped me with a bunch of bikers in my club, broke my leg. I was looking to kill him. The guy that did that is not the 16-year-old. Exactly. Now, when he's walking to the car, and Louie's asking him, I'm laying down, and this kid's on the side.

44:09he catches the vibe. He must have known the fight prior night that they jumped the maid guy and they hurt him. So he's leery. When Louie asks him that question, he turns and starts to run. Louie opens the door real quick and throws a shot with the shotgun. There's not double-O buck or slugs. It's the BBs. And I can get to that after. and it hits him in the back. We see him. He goes forward, but he don't stop running. Tito's nephew, Danny, screams to Louie. The kid, instead of going back in the house, freezing or running the other way, he's running at Louie. And Danny yells, Louie, you're back.

44:59I hear, Louie, you're back. I come up. I'm trying to get my gun. If I can shoot him, I will. But I can't get to him. The angle I'm in, laying on there with my leg all fucked up, I couldn't get the angle to shoot him. But Louie turned and blasted him once in the chest. He fell to the ground and blasted him another one, I think, in the head. Forehead. And he's dead. And we take off. So I'm not saying I'm not part of this hit. never said that. I'm in. I'm part of it. All I said is that's the way it happened. And then they start saying, well, he's blaming Louis to put the weight on Louis. What fucking weight?

45:45I'm pinched on it. I didn't push no weight. I'm pinched. He's part of the 19 murders. I didn't say, hey, wait a minute. I didn't do it, so I'm not. He's on my list. I didn't say I didn't do it. All I said is I didn't shoot him personally like they made it sound. They made it sound like some 16-year-old kid is coming home with his fucking books and we gunned him, not me, for no fucking reason. Do they make the claim that you shot him? Yes. So Junior makes the claim that you were not in the car when you guys took out Castellano, but when it comes down to this case, you're the one that shot Alan Kaiser.

46:25Yes, which is bullshit again. Now, all I say is that there's got to be an autopsy. Cops got it. He was there. Cops could say, okay, he was shot. He was shot not with a pistol, which was a saying, which Sammy had. He was shot with a shotgun. So that's all I'm saying. I didn't dump the weight on Louie Malino. Why would I? So, and that's after Louie was dead. I believe the conversations that they're talking about after Louie was dead. So why would I dump it on him? For what? What ended up being the consequences of Alan Kaiser? What ended up happening? Nothing. He's part of my 19. Got it. Nobody did time because of that.

47:09That wasn't something that. Nobody did time about it. I didn't rat on nobody, including Tato's nephew, Danny. It's the original now you're hearing is I'm saying Danny because Tato was going to propose this kid. and I went to Tato and I said, do you know that this kid took a test to be a cop, Tato? He said, no. Who told you that? Check with your family. He checked with his family and he never made him. The kid could be dead by now. I don't even know. I never heard of him anymore because I knew that Tato was going to make him because he was on a hit with us. And I never gave him up.

47:57and uh so that's the story so i'm not saying i wasn't on the hit i'm not saying i wouldn't have shot him no they would say to you they would their argument would be when they would call me it would be this is how ice cold sam is how capable he is that he'll take a 16 year old's life that's what they would say about you so when you say you know i get it yeah i get it but it's not They could say whatever they want to say. What part of that would you disagree with? Like, at that point, were you an ice-cold killer that you would have taken anybody if the orders came in? If the orders came in, without a doubt.

48:36No orders came in for me to kill this kid. So you wouldn't dispute the fact that you were an ice-cold killer at that time? Oh, no. No. That's why I confessed to everything I did. Whether it was a fight, a murder, what part I took. I didn't shoot with the fucking Castellano people either. I was more of a planner than anything else. Always? Always. It started years ago before I even got made. Tidal called me in one day and he said, Sam, I want to know something. Well, I understand that every time you go in a jewelry store or store, you're the first guy in you pull out the gun everybody get on the fucking ground why are you the fucking first guy who does that i says because my gumada alley boy he's tough as nails and he's got my back i'm comfortable with that he said you're right your gumada is tough as nails he was in another family in the Genovese.

49:39He said, but he's reactive. If he sees a cop who don't even know what the fuck is going on, he was walking by, he'll shoot the cop. Won't even hesitate. Am I right? I said, yeah, probably. He said, you, what the fuck would you do. I said I would analyze it. Maybe the cop don't know what's going on. If he's walking nonchalant, if he knew what was going on, he'd have his gun out and I would shoot him. But if he's just walking nonchalant, it happens. I wouldn't have to shoot him. Everybody keep fucking quiet. Whatever. So you would think your way out. yes that's the difference between you and ali let ali go in pull the gun tell everybody to get on the floor and you take his back you're not reactionary you'll think if there's a problem you will think your way out before you fucking kill people i know if there's a problem you'll shoot the guy sammy have have any of these you know like you said earlier you got a random phone call oh we haven't even talked about that we'll get into that with the whole fbi stuff and james comey we'll get into that here in a minute but have you ever gotten a random phone call of one of these families that later on you testified you addressed that i did take these guys out did any family member ever confront you did anybody ever call you handmade in portugal their craftsmanship is a way of life for those who move through life differently from sunlit decks to nights that never need an occasion.

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54:18Yes. Who called you? There's a Spanish guy who we killed, and I can't think of his name, but he's on my list. If you look at my list, he's a Spanish guy. Puerto Rican.

54:35DeBernando. Mormondo. Santiago, John Santiago. John Santiago. One day my phone rang and he says, is this Sammy? I said, yes. And he says, I'm Johnny Santiago's son. Son. Son. He says, could I talk to you? I said, yes. What do you want to know? He said, all I want to know, Sammy, I understand the life a little bit. My father was around it. Why did he die? Why did he get killed? Why did you kill him? I said, I'm going to tell you the whole story. Don't interrupt. Don't hang up. Is he being a jerk? Is he being fair? Is he respectful? He was very respectful and fair. How old was he when he called you?

55:2920s, 30s? 20s, probably. Okay, got it. I don't know. So I said, your father was fucking Stamie's brother's wife. And he knew us and everything. Stamie came to me and told me, Sammy, I want to kill this kid, Santiago. He was one of my top guys. I said, why? he says he was fucking my brother's wife

56:06I said you know I have to go get permission from Tato and then Paul I need to ask you a question he said what did he rape the wife the brother's wife yeah did he rape her

56:27no you

56:34Did he force her? He's asking you this question. I'm asking him, stymie. I'm telling him what I'm asking stymie. If John Santiago forced her or raped her. Yes, I'm asking stymie. Right. And he says, no, I don't think so. Do we kill your sister-in-law too? He says, it's my sister-in-law. She wasn't raped. She wasn't forced. She's a participant in this. We're going to just kill him? And she's okay? I want to ask you another question. Is this going to make their marriage better? Because we kill him?

57:26How am I supposed to know? I have to know. I have to know. I'm your boss. I have to bring it to Tato. I have to bring it to Paul. I got to ask them, I'm going to kill a fucking guy who fucked somebody who's not even in our family. I need those answers.

57:52He couldn't answer. I said, Sammy, listen to me. I know you're hot with this. He disrespected you. And I get it. but you're not asking me, you would like to break his face. You'd like to give him a fucking beating with your hands. You're asking me to kill somebody. I said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to say no. Maybe down the road. Let's sit with this a while. I'm not going to go to ask the permission. and we'll put it on the side until we really live with this for a while and we see what happens. I was dead against it. This is what I'm telling this story. One night I get a call.

58:42A couple of weeks later. Sammy, come down right away. Now, I don't question on my phone what happened. When I hear that, my guy saying, come on, right away. I noticed something really bad that happened and I jumped in my car and I drove down. What happened? Hook told me. And I said, what happened? Stammy got in the car with the Santiago guy and he was a little drunk and he killed him. Oh my God. He killed him? Yeah. Is the car still around? We put it somewhere. You just clean it up. You got the gun that he used? His clothes?

59:32Get this fucking car and clean it up. Clean it. Burn it. Get rid of it. We already got the gun. Throw it in the fucking ocean. I never want to see it or hear about it again. Get his fucking clothes that he wore when he was in the fucking car. And throw those clothes away, too. I cleaned it up. That's all I did. Knowing that a hit took place, knowing that I cleaned it up, made me part of it, I'm telling the son, that's the reason why, what happened. And he asked me, Stimey broke the rules, under your own rules. Questions you asked were great. Did you kill him? No, of course not. He was proposed to become made.

1:00:34Stymie. Stymie. I put him on the side for a while, showing him that I was super mad. I can't, I'm not gone. I can't bring back a body. I can't bring back it. But I made him know I was not happy with this fucking thing. but I had no control over it. I did and when I did I told him leave it on the side and we'll talk about it. Figuring that over time he'd say alright I mean she cheated she went with her, she's good looking, whatever. He would forget it or say okay maybe I'll just go break his face and I would have told him go. Go. You want one or two guys to go with you? You want me to go with you?

1:01:21what the fuck you wanted then we give him a good beating he deserves a beating for what he did of course that's disrespect but he didn't deserve to die the son on the phone told me sammy i just don't know how to thank you i know why my father died and he was a ladies man and did shit a couple times people would tell him stop some of the things you're doing i am i want to thank you I never heard from him again. Never bothered me. I never bothered him. That was it. He heard the story, understood the story, knew I was telling the truth, and I told him. I'm charged with it. I could tell you anything.

1:02:04I could tell you I killed him. It doesn't change my charge. There's no reason for me to lie to you. None. You asked me like a gentleman Why your father was killed And I told you like a gentleman truthfully Because I think you deserved that answer I told him like that That's a wild story Any time like When you're telling some of these stories Other guys who were made man or were in the life Maybe they've left or it's been a couple decades Did they ever call you and say Sammy why are you lying That's not really what happened Or question some of this stuff No they'll say it on their channels and that shit.

1:02:41Not channels. I'm talking somebody that is not a YouTuber, doesn't want to create content, but somebody that's a real guy that is not even wanting to sit down with anybody, just calling and say, Sammy, why'd you tell that story? Or even, why are you telling these stories publicly? Has anybody from the families called you and said, Sammy, stop talking? Not one. Not one? No. Why do you think? Because they're true. You know, we talked about, when I was going to get sentenced in a case, Michael the Bat's sister brought a whole letter I was going for sentencing how of a vicious nasty cold killer serial killer whatever the fuck she put in this letter to give me the maximum I could give the judge picked up the letter and read it I was in court and he says to her I don't want to mention her last name.

1:03:39He mentioned to her, I read your letter. He called her up front. I read your letter. And it seems like you're very angry at him. You worked for him. It doesn't bother you that your brother was out killing with him. Never bothered you. It only bothers you now that your brother got killed. and he threw the paper down on the desk. And obviously he didn't pay a no mind. You know, so it's a lot with these cases and these things, a lot of them run around with things. I always told my family, if I get killed tomorrow, don't blame the guys who kill me. They're under orders. They might like me, they might love me.

1:04:38If they don't do it, they're going to get killed. And they know that. And they're under orders, and they're in the life. Don't get mad at them. It's the guy who wanted it. So that is the life. That's the oath you take when you come into life. You live by the gun. You die by the gun. Do the right thing. When you're in the fucking life, you survive the life. Maybe. But you're in this life. If you're not, this isn't no candy ass fucking joint. Everybody worries about every little shit. There's guys who get killed in here for nothing sometimes. You know that, Patrick. There's guys left and right. And you don't have the fucking right, John Jr., to come up, put me down, and complain about me.

1:05:26If I killed 19 people who are involved in 19 murders, how many fucking murders is your father involved in? 50?

1:05:37when you open your fucking mouth, open it and tell the truth. How many were you in? You killed some fucking innocent kid in a bar fight. I remember your father and all the men, we paid the fucking cops$25 ,000 to cover you the fuck up. Talk. You want to talk? Go sit with Patrick David and talk? Say the fucking truth. Talk. Don't lie to him because he's got a big following. You want to get your fucking voice out? If you're going to talk with him, Patrick's the best guy. I did it. I talked to him a couple of times. I'm talking to him now. But tell him the truth. Go tell him the truth. Because if he don't smell the fucking truth, he's going to be on it.

1:06:26We're talking, I don't know how long. You double-checked me three times, four times already. And that's the way I'm supposed to be. That's why I was mad. That's what you should do with John Jr. Oh, you're making some heavy accusations. And we're just saying that Sammy wasn't involved. The whole fucking world knew he was involved. The Brooklyn police, New York police, FBI, people who cooperated. There's so much. And then why would he just cooperate and say he did it? Why would he confess to a fucking massive murder, double murder? If he didn't do it. it's like me saying I killed John Kennedy why would I do this I didn't do it to make myself famous I'm not completely out of my mind and so that's it and murders bothered me I never enjoyed a murder never there's murders that I did that bothered the shit out of me I think you know that I'm doing a movie about the Iceman not the Iceman the

1:07:36Johnny Keys hit. And that thing just literally broke my heart. There's another one with Louie Molito. Just wiped me out. I was a kid growing up. Fishing, hunting. We did everything together. Louie's almost done every single murder I'm on. Why would I lie about that one? he's almost done to everyone. He was a tough bastard. Everybody knew that. People were legit. People who knew him now, who were not in the streets. I got friends who talk about him. I tell them, listen, I don't even want to talk about him, you know, because it just breaks my heart what he did. He did stupid shit and got himself killed.

1:08:30it's a you know you and i have spent a lot of time together a lot you know outside of the interviews and stuff and the stuff on camera we've had dinner we've had conversations over the years and one of the stories i want to get into we were talking about it briefly this came up i think a week ago with you and james comey uh you know doj uh sought input on comey case from the tory samuel gervano defense says if you can go a little bit lower you know less than a month ago the fbi Director James Comey's indictment earlier this year. Prosecutors sought the assistance of the notorious gangster Samuel Abel Gravano to build their case against him.

1:09:04His defense lawyers alleged in a court filing on Tuesday. Prosecutor and FBI agent allegedly interviewed Gravano to understand if Comey's experience prosecuting the Gambino family in the 1990s would have led him to believe that the term 86 was a reference to murder or violence. A federal grand jury indicted Comey on two charges in April for posting the picture on his Instagram account of seashells spelling 8647. Gavano, who confessed to his involvement of 19 murders, including those of his best friends and his brother-in-law, before cooperating with prosecutors, told the prosecutor and FBI agent that he did not interpret Comey's 8647 seashells post to be personal threat to President Trump, according to his defense lawyers.

1:09:48Is this story true? Did they call you? Did they reach out to you? Well, I do have a lawyer, and I'm not going to answer a lot of questions with this, but like you said, we do have a relationship. Yes. Did they call me? Yes. I'm not going to talk in depth of it, but I sat in my house one day. My phone rang. A woman said, is this Sammy the Bull? And I said, yeah. Who's this? And she says, I'm the FBI. Want to talk to you. So I said, before you go any further, you know I'm on parole. If you're an FBI agent, you must know I'm on parole. Yes, we know. Well, my instructions were my parole officers that I don't answer any questions with cops, FBI or anybody unless I talk with them and they say it's okay for me to talk.

1:10:55So if you do me a favor, I don't know who you are. I don't know if you're the FBI. I don't know if you're a newswoman trying to get under my skin or whatever the fuck it is. But call my FBI parole officers. And if they talk to me, I'll maybe talk to you. So I'm going to hang up on you. I'm not going to be abusive and hang up. With all due respect, I'm going to hang up, and I'm not going to make any comments to you. So if that's what I told the FBI, that's what I'm telling you. That's funny. Got it. Well, let me ask a question. Listen, if I'm called there, I'm already telling them. I'll give you a little bit.

1:11:37If I'm not subpoenaed, I'm not going. I'm not, you know, I'm just not doing it. if I'm subpoenaed and I have to go because I'm on parole, I'll go and we'll take it from there. Did the Italian mafia, did the mob ever use the word 86? Was that like a terminology you would use or not really? Well, you know, I know, you know, I had a dish of fucking rigatoni one time. I said, well, 86 this. Get it away from me. 86 means, to me, get rid of it. Whatever it is, get rid of it. 86 it. But does it mean kill, or does 86 mean get rid? Could it be translated as kill? Now, anybody who said this, says Patrick is dumb, is fucking crazy.

1:12:27Because look at what he's doing. He's trying to make me talk. I'm asking you a question about 80. I'm doing math. I'm trying to get better at math. Yes, well, here's what I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you this. I know you're a math guy. Yeah. Now, if, God forbid, I'm going to use you as an example. Sure. The guy calls me up. We're going to 86 Patrick with David. I would hang up and I would say, they're going to kill Patrick. Got it. I mean, what else could it mean? And it's, you know, everybody in the country, I think, knows what 86 something means. So, you know, it's that. Now, as a gangster, did I use 86 if I was going to kill somebody?

1:13:16No. Because I think any moron would understand, I'm going to kill, I'm going to 86 Patrick. Oh, you hear what Sammy said? He's going to try to kill Patrick. so I don't know all this gobbledygook what they're talking about or what all he's charged about I didn't get any of that information now his lawyer must have got some information from them saying that I'm going to be on trial or be called and so I guess we'll wait for that I remember when we spoke with me and Michael Michael used the phrase baloney. And I'll never forget you said, who uses that word? This is why I wonder, because I don't know the language on how you guys speak.

1:14:06I'm not in the life. I've just spent a lot of time with you guys. And you're like, who says baloney? Nobody says baloney. Do you remember that exchange? It was one of the funny moments of that. There was a few of them. Oh, yeah. What he told me, I said, I mean, that's baloney. Well, who the fuck uses that term? We're both good with Michael. Michael was here. I know you got a relationship with him as well. Yeah, I do. But he comes out with some things. Yeah, yeah. He said baloney four times. I remember that. So, okay. So, 86. By the way, did you ever have any dealings with Comey back in the days?

1:14:37Did you ever do anything with Comey back in the days or no? I mean, I tell you, this guy's brilliant. Yes, I did. There was a case years ago. 90s, 2000s, 80s. We stopping over there. You know, look at him. Here he is. He's already pulling it up. I mean, you know, what's fascinating to me, I'm not saying what he did, but, I mean, if he took 86, 47 in seashells, took a picture of it, and put it out for the world to see, that's about as stupid as you couldn't do. I mean, first of all, the president you're talking about had three attempts on his life. and now this, every screwball in the world, maybe not me or other guys, I don't know, but would look at that and, you know, from a high official, it's like, I got a license.

1:15:44Let me go kill Trump. So I don't know what his actual charges and what the FBI were pretty good with me. I'm waiting to hear. Have you and Colmey ever been in the same room together? Yeah. You have? In the 90s? Yeah. So was he one of the guys that when you cooperated, he was in the room questioning all of that or no? What do you mean questioning all of that? Was he one of the guys in the room when you eventually decided that I'm done, I'm leaving the life and I'm going to go cooperate? Was he one of the guys? No, I don't think he's in there. But I was on a couple of trials. Was he a heavyweight even in the 80s and the 90s?

1:16:25Like, is this somebody you knew that this is, this guy's? Oh, yeah. He was, what was he? He was a head FBI guy. He was a head, some sort of attorney general. He was powerful. Yeah, he was. Homi was a young assistant to U.S. attorney in Southern District of New York. He worked on organized crime prosecutions in the Mobility Gambino family. Sammy Gravano had become the government's star cooperating witness and turned on Gotti. Comey was part of the federal prosecution effort against Gambino figures, although he was not the lead prosecutor in the famous Gotti trial. Interesting. No, he wasn't the lead.

1:17:02He was. But I had a couple of trials. I had an eye on trial, so one of them, he was. He was one of them. Was he strong? Did you get a vibe of a, you know, formidable guy or? Oh, he was a strong guy, yeah. Yeah, he wasn't a weak guy. He was strong. So, you know. Did Gotti know of him? Like, did Gotti know who he was or not really? I really don't know. I don't know if Gotti knew him. I don't know if I knew him before the Gotti arrest. I mean, I don't remember. I don't know. But you've been in the same room with Comey before. Oh, absolutely. Multiple times? Yes. Dinner, playing cards, domino, chess.

1:17:41What was the occasion? I can't tell you. Really? Cases. Cases. Wow. Wow. So more than five times? More than ten times? No, we can't talk. No, I'd take the fifth. Really? You're going to do Fauci today? Fauci? Fauci pleaded the fifth 111 times. I mean, that's a disgrace, this guy. It is, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. This guy killed millions of people. And he may get away with it. I can't see how he's going to get away with it. You saw what they're doing. Trump announced today that he's removing all the auto pen, you know, his executive orders that Biden did of 92 % wasn't signed. It was all auto pen.

1:18:28And if he does that, Rand Paul is going for Fauci. Rand Paul wants to get him. I think there's more than them. I mean, listen, it's so obvious. That I could talk about. It's so obvious what he did. It's really disgusting. You really got me curious with this Comey thing. Yeah. Really. You've never told this story. Here's what I'll do. If I go down and I cooperate and I'm in this trial, you call me down, I'll come and do it. The first guy I'll come. No, no, but what is interesting about this is, are you not able to talk because you're dealing with the FBI right now? Or are you not able to talk because you don't want to talk by your relationship with Comey from the 90s?

1:19:07Those are two different things. Yeah, but I hit both chords.

1:19:14So which one is it more? Both. So you've never talked about this with Comey, though. No, the seashells. No, not the seashells. Seashells is recent. The stuff from the 90s, you've never talked about that. No. No. Now you got me and everybody else watching curious. Yeah, well, that's what I do. Do you think Comey's a nice guy? Do you think he's a good guy?

1:19:42You know, I don't have an opinion. Like, I don't hate the guy. Like, I want to go down and testify that I don't, and I really don't like him. I don't give a fuck about him if he goes to prison or he stays out of prison. Or I don't have any kind of grudges with him if that's what you're getting at. No. I just think that an intelligent guy, if this is true what he did, and I don't know what witnesses they got or what they're doing. They didn't tell me. So I think it's as stupid as you can get. I mean, I know I would never use the terminology on a murder or anything like that or attempted murder.

1:20:35to use the terminology 86, because I would think that every FBI agent in the world, in the country, would know what I'm talking about. Unless I was in a restaurant and I didn't want the food, then it's obvious. He don't want the food. He's arguing with the food. But the relationship with Fauci is not that you guys broke bread. It's not a relationship. It's more about as an AG. is that fair or was there a relationship between the two of you I love this guy this is you know what do they say you gotta wait until the end he's going on what in October it's right around the corner let's see what happens

1:21:25interesting you know what's scarier like a little bit all of these heavyweights

1:21:36it's Democrats a lot you do something and there's going to be a witness the witness disappears the witness hangers himself all of these fucking things you know I'm expecting someday I mean if he's panicking about me they might be panicking about me they may say let's take this motherfucker out yeah if they think I know a lot and I'm going to hurt them maybe that's what they would want to do so I would advise them myself make sure you don't miss because we'll be talking about you

1:22:31because these fucking people are fanatic with this stuff. They really are. And it seems like every time they get some sort of a case, who disappears, who commits suicide, who falls on a knife, who does this or who does that. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense?

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1:25:21Yeah, you're almost uncomfortable talking about it. No, I'm not uncomfortable talking about it. And if I was, I mean, I'm talking about it. I'm going to be there if I'm subpoenaed. And we see how it goes. And, you know, then you just do what you got to do. But in other words, I don't want to add to this explosion I got. It was on the Staten Island Advance. My friends of mine had sent me, look what they're saying about you. I got another guy who talks about me all the time. Look, he's ratting. I'm not ratting. I don't even know what the fuck is going on. You don't know what's going on. I'm ratting?

1:26:00How am I ratting? Is what you know about Comey, if it came out, would it destroy his reputation?

1:26:14I don't know. I don't know. Does he have a lot of reputations? Does he got a good reputation? No, no, no. I'm talking about with you from the 80s and 90s. Yeah, but I'm saying, the 80s and 90s, does he have a good reputation? No, but if the stories of what the relationship is with you from the 80s and 90s were to come out, would it affect them negatively? Or would it affect you negatively? I don't know. You know what I've learned in this life is that those 12 jurors make up their mind what they're going to do, what they're going to believe, and what's going on. I don't know. They may love him.

1:26:50You're going to put 12 Democrats on the stand? They might love him. Oh, he was saying this about Trump? Oh, I love him. This is how twisted the country is right now. But I'm talking about the truth because you talk about the truth. If what the relationship of you and him, if that ever leaked, would that hurt him or help him? I think you should get him on. Oh, he won't do it, though. He won't do it? No, he won't do it. But call me a lot of these guys, Sammy, they're better off just keeping their mouth shut and disappearing and going to all those fancy dinners in Long Island and, you know, with the Greenwich and all the stuff that they go to and behind closed doors.

1:27:28They should live that life. The more they open up their mouth, the more they incriminate themselves. These guys. I agree with you. Yeah. And I'm in the same boat now. It's the same of my, I can open up my mouth and get myself in trouble. Well, let's go to a couple things and then we'll wrap up. The story with Mamdani came out. You know, I'm curious to know how you handle it. Mamdani has this story comes out and they talk about all these places in New York. And he puts the map of New York City's immigrant neighborhood sparks outrage for ignoring Little Italy. I'm sure you saw that if you want to go a little bit lower.

1:28:05Yeah, yeah. And this is the map. So you see the map, New York City immigrant enclaves, right? Zoom in a little bit because my eyes, I can't see anything. So you got Chinatown, you got Chinatown in Sunset Park, Guyana, Koreatown, Little Africa, Albania, you know, Colombian, Dominican Republic, Ecuador. You got everybody. Manila, Mexico, Odessa, Palestine, Pakistan, Poland, Ukraine, Yemen, Egypt, Little Haiti, Little India. And you forget Italy? You think this was an intentional error or an accidental error? I think it's intentional. and stupid at the same time, almost putting it together with Comey's stupid and accidental and whatever.

1:28:51I think this is the same thing. This guy has got to be out of his mind in New York to do this. He's obviously against Jewish people. New York is full of Jews all over and they're good people and you throw Italians out, I think you just put two races and nationalities together in a relationship. They, you know, I remember when they did the Italian American League, the Jewish Defense League came down and rallied for us. Now you've got two of them together, I would imagine that in New York now you're going to have the Jews and the Italians rallying for each other and make you make your friends with whether they like each other or not.

1:29:42We both got thrown out. I think it's a dumb move. But I really amazed I was born and raised, as you know, in New York all my life. I'm amazed how they voted him in. It's a lot of these young kids coming out of college. and they don't have a clue when they're going against somebody who's

1:30:11this kind of a mentality against Christians, Jews, against all kinds of different things. Why would you want this guy in? This is your end result. Like when they say when you vote, you got what you want and now live with it and deal with it. And that's what they got. Yeah, but do you think he is intentionally leaving Italians out? Or do you think that's a mistake? I think it's a big mistake. I mean, there's a lot of Italians in New York in every single part of New York. Is there anything in here about Jews? Nothing. So no Jews, no Italians. And if you look at the population of Italians in New York, it's 7.6%.

1:30:54What are the top, I don't know, top five biggest, let's see, ethnicity population in New York City? I'm curious. What are the top five? 2.7 to 3.1, that's in New York. But New York City is going to be, you know, 800 ,000. So number one is Puerto Ricans. Then you got Italians. Then you got Dominicans. Chinese, Irish, Mexican, German, Russian, Polish and you leave Italians and they're the second biggest population in New York City it's kind of weird it is weird it's kind of weird and Jews is 1.3 million and so number one is Jews he left it out number three is Italians leave it out Sammy Italians would you get would the Italian mob like all the families would you all consider yourself patriots like love America assimilate that's the greatest country in the world, was that the mantra for Italian mob?

1:31:55I think so, yeah. Yeah, I think so. There was a lot, a lot of people I know, including myself, was in the military, was willing to fight for the country. A lot of guys. Guys were older than me back in World War II and stuff like that. Tons of guys. My father was an immigrant. He was a patriot. He loved the country. He loved the flag. He loved what he did. You know, they were innocent people trying to make a living, trying to grow. So, yeah, I think the mafia is patriotic about things. You know, not to a tremendous degree that they're going to go crazy fighting over it. But, yeah, I think in one way they believe in everything.

1:32:45The flag, you've seen them with holidays and stuff like that. they're good. They care about the country. My father, first thing I spoke was Italian. I never even knew how to speak English when I was a kid because they were all Italians. They were all Italians. And that's all I learned. My father had said, we got to stop doing this. Look, he can't even speak English. We came to this country. We got to believe their laws, their flag, their country and their language. And all my grandmothers and everybody started to talk in English more. I mean, once in a while they talk in Italian, but they did it because they wanted to be part of this country.

1:33:24You're not here to divide the country. You're here to make it bigger and stronger and better. And if you left from someplace that was fucked up, this is more of a reason that you're going to come here and say, I'm going to make this better. I'm not going to make this screwed up. It's not happening with everybody, though. No, I know. It doesn't happen with everybody because people have personal greed and selfishness. But you have to understand that, you know, when people make a move, like let's say Donald Trump, he makes a move. He may benefit 80 % of the people. 20 % are going to suffer a little bit.

1:34:05And they're going to be so loud and crazy about it, and that's the way it is. You can't fix everything. You're always going to hurt somebody. You do something one way, a lot of people are going to like it, and a lot of people are not going to like it. That's just the way it is. Kennedy once said, don't ask what the country could do for you. Ask what you could do for the country. But people don't have that mentality. They don't. They're always worried about what can it do for me. Sammy you know you see some of these things that's happening to kids in America you see I don't know if you've watched the movie citizen vigilante you know with the way bull or you saw a guy named rupert low talk about the 250 ,000 young girls that were raped in UK and London and 87 percent were Pakistani Muslims that did this to kids and what would happen when you guys were fully active in the 80s.

1:35:08If an innocent young girl was raped by an older 30, 40-year-old boy, man, what would you guys do? How would the mob get involved? We would kill them. Listen, there was that guy, the son of Sam, who ran around. Now, we never bothered with the cops. When he was running around, his neighbor's dog was telling him to go kill people who are making out in the car, love his lanes. A dog. The guy was fucking gone. The mob kind of was hunting him too. I remember sitting in the car with a girl making out. I had a fucking gun on me. Whatever she was doing, I was looking out the window. I didn't want to get shot in the fucking head with this lunatic.

1:35:56I didn't know who he was. And then they caught him. And the way they caught him, he got a ticket. He got this. He got that. He went to prison. They're gone. Mentally. I think most people don't want him No, I get that But what I'm trying to do Is sometimes people are like Cops are not even getting involved To protect people And some of that stuff is not happening Did you guys take it upon yourself With men like this To get rid of them? Sure, sure A child molester On the streets In Benson Heights, Brooklyn Or a rapist I think he would get killed I don't think he would get killed In my time, if you're talking he would get killed.

1:36:40Now, what it is right now, I don't know. But in my time, he would get killed. And in my time when I went to prisons, nobody wanted to be with them. You get a child molester or a rapist, sometimes they would get killed or beat up in prison. Nobody wanted to be around them. What would happen to child molesters in prison? Did anybody make it? Did they get beat up every day? Would they hide? Would they protect them? Yeah, a lot of times they had to move them to a special place. Special place, they had to get them away. Because they're always, somebody's always giving them a problem, which they should.

1:37:18They're at least on the total pole of people that are respected. They don't respect you. They respect killers, all kinds of things. But not those kind of crimes. Because killers and everybody has families. Everybody's got families. Everybody relates to, oh, my God, he raped a 10-year-old or a 12-year-old girl. Or a boy. They relate to it in a negative way. We can't stomach that. You know, and I don't want the guy in the same room as me. listen I hit a guy in prison a priest who got arrested for doing things my lawyer I'll never forget it came to me he said Sammy did you hit a priest I said yeah he said are you sick the newspapers are going to pick that up they're going to say you hit a priest in prison I said bro he was talking to me about what he does.

1:38:29What? That when kids come in, he flashes them and he was giggling and laughing what it was about. And I slapped him. I didn't really go to work on him bad. I just slapped him. I couldn't stomach listen to him. This guy's your cellmate? No, he wasn't my cellmate. He was in the unit. What made him feel comfortable sharing those stories with you on what he does to young boys? Because he felt that talking to me, I rather than I'm a parasite, whatever the fuck it is, he felt something like that. And he could talk to me about it. I didn't get it at first when he was telling me. He says, you know, the little girls, they love it.

1:39:16They love what? He says, when I sit in the car, I got a coat on. I called them over. I got candy. I got things. they come running over. And then when I expose myself, they start giggling. And laughing, it's great. And I hit them. And then a prison came and talked to me. Even the prison, I thought I'm going to go in the hole. I didn't even go in the hole. They got rid of him. Of course, the guards were against it. It's a priest. It was a priest. Let me tell you his story. It was a priest who was doing this to kids. little boys and he got caught up and they moved him from Arizona to another state but they didn't throw him out they just moved him years later one of those kids that he bothered grew up, went to school became a cop the cop became like a sergeant or something like that He was the head of a squad going after child molesters.

1:40:27And he called the guy up, the priest, and said, my name is Joe Blow, and I want to thank you. I'm gay today because of you. And he starts saying, I thank you for showing me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he talks back to him. Right after that phone call, it's bugged, obviously. He's arrested. In Arizona, bring him back to Arizona. Set him up. Set him up. Bring him back to California. He's admitting a whole fuck, not California, Arizona. He's admitting the whole thing, everything he did. Now, when he's sitting with me in a unit, he's became a witness to tell what they do with priests who do this they just move them to another place and then he just keeps doing what he's doing they don't get rid of him they don't do anything to him so he's writing on bishops and whatever the whole system so hearing that I couldn't stand them to begin with what do you think needs to happen to these types of people what do you think needs to happen to guys like this well at bare minimum take the priest throw them out let them go to prison just like anybody else you think that's enough and I let the inmates take care of them yeah well I think it's an at least maybe it's not enough but it's at least do that yep if you move them to Florida.

1:42:12What's going to stop him? He's going to do it again. You didn't stop him. You just transferred him. That's bullshit. So I mean you got to give him some sort of punishment or something. It's disgusting. It's happening. It's an interesting story. You have a daughter. I got two daughters. I got your son on the phone. Your son. He answered the phone. He said My father's not here. Take my word for it. He won't call you back for two weeks. I love that call. He's so funny. Yeah. Good boy. But do you remember the first time your daughter brought a boy home to introduce to boyfriend and what your reaction to it was?

1:42:57Yeah.

1:43:00Well, I think, I don't remember the first one, but I think I was cool with it. My daughter was very grounded. She was a tough kid. She was a very grounded kid. When she was, you know, I was very strong with her, and so was my wife. One day, I came home. I went in the kitchen. She came in the kitchen, and she started crying. I said, what are you crying about? She says, I went out with my girlfriends. yeah and we were drinking and I took a little coke

1:43:47why are you crying she says I know I was wrong and I just wanted to tell you I said that's good because you knew what you did you made a mistake and you did something wrong and you're confessing to me So I'm not going to be mad at you. Stay with that kind of an attitude. Stop crying. I love you. I appreciate you. You're honest. And you know this is going to hurt you down the road. Stay away from all that crap. And she did. She became very grounded, my daughter. So the same thing with my son. So knock on wood, I was a little strong and a little tough with them. But they turned out to be two great kids.

1:44:37I mean, my daughter does interviews and things, people, and she's a workaholic. She works, you know, her heart out. She's open-minded. And so she had a problem. She was able to trust me enough to sit with me and tell me the problem. I was man enough not to hit her or turn around and scream at her and yell at her. I said, the best thing you can have done was tell me the truth. And I see the way you're crying, and you're looking for forgiveness, you got it. And I think doing that, people have to be patient with their kids. Kids listen to other kids. They go out with other kids and do things. You have to understand that's part of life, and try to cut that all out and do the best you can with your kids.

1:45:31stay on top of it. Don't go like a raving maniac. Give them respect. Let them love you and respect you. And if they make a mistake, they may come back. You know, I'm working on a program now, Prep National. I don't know if you heard about it, but Prep National. And I want to ask you a question about this, going into Prep National. The question I want to ask you is, I remember the first time I had you on the podcast, That's 2019. The first one that we did were, you know, you remember that one. One of the questions I ask you is when you went to jail, you know, did you find Jesus? And I don't know if you remember that question or not.

1:46:13I did. And here's the segment of it in the interview. I want to play this clip and then I want to ask you what happened next. Go for it. A lot of people go to prison. They find Machiavelli. Some find Jesus. Who did you find in prison? You know, I looked for Jesus. I looked for prayer and Jesus wasn't in any of the prisons I was in. And I already knew Mecca. What I understood is this. Everybody believes in God in one form or another. All the religions is nothing more than a road to God. The Jewish community has it. The Christians have it. The Catholics have it. The Indians have it. Everybody has that road to God.

1:46:49Wicca people, they all have to God. The road is different. and we start arguing, fighting over it, but we all have the God. That's what it is. If you believe in God, it doesn't matter whether you believe a monkey. That's good. The guys I saw that found Jesus in prison, I've seen guys who found it. And they're usually crying and whining and asking him for less time and want to get out and do this, that, and the other thing. Or it's an excuse for something else. The devil made me do it. I didn't do this on my own. I mean, I would love, you know, this is what they would say if they were me. The devil made me do it.

1:47:24I found Jesus in prison. And I became a holy roger. And that's it. No, I would be lying through my teeth. And one thing God's going to do with me, I always said this, when I get up there, if I get up there, he's going to say one thing about you, Sammy, you're not a fucking phony or a liar. You tell it like you feel it. You did what you did. And whatever's going to be is going to be. But to start lying and crying, how are they going to face God? All of them years are lying about Jesus. You didn't believe Jesus. Yeah, but I had to get out of prison. But now you got to face God. He's going to know you.

1:47:56You're full of shit. You go on the express on that train over there. Get the fuck out of here. So I don't know. Pause right now. What's changed? This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+.

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1:49:43Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at carlirano.com is your home wish list just sitting in your cart well get ready to hit checkout because wayday at wayfair is here save up to 80 off everything home during the biggest sale of the year whether you're refreshing the living room upgrading the bedroom or finally tackling that home project you've been putting off now's the time to save big shop wayfair's wayday sale and get up to 80 off now till october 26 these deals won't last go to wayfair.com today Wayfair, every style, every home A lot changed I mean, I'm older, I'm wiser I went through more things When I left the life I went through, this was a change A part of my change And when I went to Ocean Church in California I met a pastor there I became very, very friendly with him and he wanted to baptize me.

1:50:44And I hesitated at first. I wasn't sure what to say. And then he said, I'll do it on the beach. There'll be tens of thousands of people, all kinds of security, all of this stuff, and I'll baptize you and Jesus will forgive you for your sins. And I said, I don't want to do it that way. That looks fake to me. that I'm doing it for tens of thousands of followers or people or this and that. If I do it, I want to do it between me, you, and I want to make it private, some small thing. I don't want to blow it up. Because people would say I'm doing this for publicity or whatever. And he said, all right, Sammy, that sounds good to me.

1:51:31And we talked and talked and talked. And it was a September time. And I went with him, and we went to a friend of his house, and I became baptized in a pool. And I felt really, really, really good after I was done. And I felt good at different times when I thought about Christ, or I thought about God, or I thought about changing my life. And I was just mentoring this place. a friend of mine is a teacher for 20 some odd years and he's doing prep national and it's a thing that helps kids with religion, with everything all the way around, so I thought about it and I said I think I'm behind this prep national a friend of mine, Jessica is a very religious person, very smart person.

1:52:40And she talked to me about it. And I started really backing this prep national very much. And it's almost like religion. You know, there's a lot of religion. They go into religion schools and things like that. And I have things. I was dyslexic as a kid. and I think if I had this program that these people put together, I might have been different. I'm not stupid. I'm dyslexic. Words look screwed up to me. Numbers look screwed up to me. But I know right from wrong. I know God exists. I was shot two different times and stabbed once. There was multiple meetings, and I think Patrick knows them, that I was supposed to go and I was supposed to be killed.

1:53:31And I think that God didn't want that to happen. Why he didn't want that to happen, I have no idea right now. And I wanted to straighten my life out. I thought it was good for my kids, my grandchildren, and my great-grandchild. So I'm moving to get that into schools as much as possible and pulling their lives together. my son I tell my son come with me I go to mass every week in Arizona and if I'm in California I'll go to the church the ocean church and I do that and I feel good about things I'm doing right now Do you think you're going to heaven? I don't know that's God's decision I think that I believe what they say in the Bible and the pastors that when you are baptized, Jesus forgives you for your sins.

1:54:34Now, if that's true, since that, I don't think I have any major sins. I know I don't. So I don't see why I wouldn't go. But I don't know. I really don't know. But I don't want to gamble and just do what I feel like doing. and I don't feel like doing anything to hurt anybody or to deceive people or to do certain things. I don't really want to do that anyway. I want my podcast to go. I'm working on a scripted show. I want to get that to go. And it's crazy. I mean, I wish you could talk to some of those people that I'm working with. When I talked to them about it, I said, I want everything to come out the truth.

1:55:19My brother-in-law, everything. everything that I didn't want to come out I want to leave my life where, what I was before, in the middle after, whatever it is, because I think I owe that to my daughter my son, my grandchildren and people who love me and around me, friends, people that I care about and if I don't do that there'll be nobody who cares about me. Do you pray daily? Not every day, no. But I pray a lot. I do. I pray a lot. I pray a lot because I do live shows on Mondays and 30s. People call me with their, who's their son, their daughter, their father, mother in a hospital dying, this, that.

1:56:11And I pray for them. I do pray for them. So I don't always pray for myself or for something. I can't get the scripted show done just yet. I pray for that.

1:56:27And I pray for things I think are worthy for me to pray for, for God to listen to. But I think he listens to everything anyway and knows everything. Well, that's an interesting testimony. And you see, that's the beautiful thing about God, right? Faith. Seeing when I saw you getting baptized, I'm like, I remember asking him about it. and I wonder how he's going through it. I wonder how he's going through it. It's got to be, you know, because we all are emotional and logical human beings. You have a very logical side to yourself. I do. Yeah, where it's like logically why would he forgive me for the life I've lived.

1:57:10The only way you can make sense of it is emotionally and grace and, you know, at the end of the day it's faith. We're not going to know until the day comes. But yeah, when I saw that, I saw this video. You want to play this video? I think this is the video. Rise up out of these waters with a new nature, a new heart, new mind, and a new life. Father, right now, the old man is going under, and God, the Spirit of God is coming up out of Sammy as he rises out of these waters in newness and life. It was interesting seeing this. It's interesting to me, too, because without this, take this away. What do I have?

1:57:49Nothing. I might as well be dead. What this gives me life, gives me joy, gives me forgiveness, gives me reasons to want to help people, not hurt people. So I love what I did. I feel good about what I did. And I conduct myself each and every day. I got people attacking me left and right all over the fucking place. and I don't retaliate. I got people saying things about me that would be dead if I was like I was. And they're not. And I constantly listen to the preachers and people saying, forgive even them. So God wants me to forgive them. Now, I'm not going to go give them roses, but I'm going to forgive them that I'm not going to hurt them and I'm not going to do anything.

1:58:45And I feel better about it. The other way around, you never know when you're going to get pinched, when you're going to go to prison, when something's going to happen. So I try to be as positive as a person as I could be and do what I do. And I'm happy with it. I'm good with it. Well, I'm glad to hear that you're going through this. You know, you and I have known each other now almost 10 years. I remember the first phone call I made you. I called you and I'm like, hey, Sammy, Patrick B. David here. Who the fuck is Patrick B. David? I said, I'd like to interview you. I'm not doing an interview with nobody.

1:59:21The only one I've sat down with is Diane Sawyer, got$20 million, won the biggest interviews of all time in 1994. And then that started our relationship when we flew out to Arizona. We sat there and, you know, Mario and all that stuff. It's been an interesting journey. But for those watching, if you want to learn more about Prep International, we're going to put the link below. where you can go and learn more about this, empowering schools for a brighter future, comprehensive mental health awareness and substance abuse prevention for schools and communities, elevate your school's well-being with your tailored online resources and services to foster a nurturing environment.

1:59:58So we're going to put the link below to learn more about it. And Sammy, as usual, it's always good talking to you, man. It's my pleasure to talk to you and be with you. And I love this guy. We do have a 10-year relationship, and it's very good. Looking forward to the future. Thank you so much, Sammy. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye, bye-bye. Bye-bye. Handmade in Portugal. Their craftsmanship is a way of life. For those who move through life differently, from sunlit decks to nights that never need an occasion, every detail is considered, every step effortless. Crafted from fine suede and built with builder technology designed to move with you.

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