Jenna Lyons on Leaving J.Crew and The Real Housewives to Reinvent Herself

26:07I wasn't trained for it. I didn't go to business school. You know, I think things are changing now with the world we're living in, where traditional trajectories for people and going to college and doing all the things that you that's all going out the window. But tell me a little bit more about him, because, I mean, he was just one of those people who loved product and he put product and the customer first. You know, I think we had come from a place where we looked at the bottom line and that was what we focused on. But the bottom line is really, you know, a result of the product and what the customer perceives the product as being and whether they love it or don't love it.

26:43So I think he really reversed the conversation and said, like, let's just focus on the product and make sure it's beautiful. And then let's focus on the storytelling and making sure that the customer understands why this sweater is better than the other sweater, because this is Laura Piana Cashmere. And we're able to buy this in a bulk rate because we are buying a ton of it and literally tons. And so let's tell the story. And so that really shifted the customer's perception of the brand and shifted what we were able to do. And so he gave, you know, a lot more opportunities to people who were coming out of the design space.

27:15And he paralleled design to business. So, you know, by making me the president, he was saying, listen, the creative side of this business is just as important as the business side. And they are interlinked. Does it feel like there aren't enough of those CEOs at the moment in the fashion space that give creatives more space to breathe? I think the fashion space has changed so much. I mean, the turnover. Well, that's at the top. I think, yes. I think that, you know, when you're talking about, you know, the houses coming out of Europe, that's a very different conversation. But you have this real division of church and state.

27:57And when you think about there's the top top, which is really very elite, incredibly expensive. Unattainable. Pretty unattainable for most people. And then you have mass. And the problem is that with the influx in the United States of Zara and H &M and Uniqlo, they are producing great clothes at a really affordable price. And so it's making it much more challenging for the J. Cruz and the Madewells and the Michael Kors and all those people who are sort of sitting in that middle zone because they're competing against a humongous engine. And so, you know, I'm not really sure exactly what's happening on the inside.

28:36I don't have visibility to, you know, what they're experiencing. I will say what, you know, is happening at Gap with Zach Pozen being inside Gap. I think that's changed and you can really see his impact. So I think that that's really, you know, that's that to me gives me hope. And when you say impact, is it on the garment, on the piece, on the business, on the which piece of that business? I mean, well, and that's I guess the thing is to me, the business is the clothing that they're selling clothing. So that is the business. And so you see the quality of the clothes or the style has come back.

29:10There's they're much more relevant. The fits are better. I think, you know, when you look at Gap today versus what it was two years ago, it's a complete 180. And I think it feels more relevant. People are wearing Gap again. I'm hearing people feeling like, you know, it's back in the zeitgeist. And it was really not for quite some time. And that has really been because of, you know, I think Richard brought in Zach Posen to really change the thinking around what the brand was. they are doing Gap Studio, which is this more sort of tailored, more high-end, I don't know if I would say high-end, but more sort of couture designed.

29:44And you talk about tailoring, like tailoring is such a key piece of your wardrobe and something that you focused on immensely at J.Crew. And I don't think enough emphasis is made by many other brands because most of the clothing I buy. It's tailored. I think people don't really understand how unique and different that area of clothing and the way that you make that kind of clothing is. Because there's been sort of this dumbing down, so to speak, of apparel industry, I don't really think most people understand truly like what goes into a tailored garment and what tailoring really means. It's just not as culturally understood here in the United States.

30:29I think people who are European usually have a different relationship to tailoring because they understand that tailoring isn't just going and getting something fit. Tailoring is actually the workmanship that goes into cutting a jacket or a trouser. At one point, you compared your role as a fashion executive to a glorified crossing guard. Can you elaborate on that? Sure. I mean, I think anytime you get to a point where you are sitting in a pretty senior seat, if you are doing the work, you're not you need to let people do their thing. And so what happens is you start to really be more it's more about guidance.

31:11And so it's that's why I like into a crossing heart, which is like, hold on a second. Let's not do that. You come over here. Let's do that. This is great. Let's move this to the forefront. You over there, can you hold over? Can you come around this person? I want you to look at this. And so it's really about thinking about the idea runway and making sure also that you're getting the best out of each team, that they also are seeing what the other ones are doing. If something is not going the right direction, let's hold on that. But did that come natural to you? Because that's very different to designing the garment.

31:46It is. But when you get to, I mean, by the time I was, you're not designing when you're the president anymore. It's managing. And managing is a total, I mean, no one trains you for managing. I learned how to manage the hard way. On the job. Making mistakes, making people cry, making people hate me. And I think, you know, it's something that you start to see where you're like, how do I get the best out of someone? And oftentimes it's letting them do their thing. It's not micromanaging them. It's giving them room to make their own mistakes. It's remembering what did I enjoy when I was a sub, you know, a subordinate?

32:19What made me feel good? It's, you know, having, you know, giving someone real feedback, making sure that you're making decisions, not dragging decisions out, like just moving and not. I think that's another thing, like the analysis paralysis of, you know, having somebody, a boss who doesn't make a decision is like. Yeah, just choose.

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33:42As someone that started at a company at the bottom of the ladder and worked their way all the way to the top, how do they go about that trajectory? I mean, I would say if that's your goal, you're probably focused on the wrong thing. I think when you are trying to just move up, everyone around you feels that. I have been on the receiving end of people who worked for me, and I felt like they were more interested in the next move than the work that they were doing today. I was really fortunate. I loved making clothing. And so it wasn't really on my mind, particularly at the outset of my career. I just wanted to make beautiful things.

34:25And my desire to have a bigger job really stemmed from the fact that I wanted to protect and continue to really foster the land of these beautiful things. I didn't want these land of misfit toys to look like misfit toys. I wanted to protect all of my babies and take them all the way to the end. And that was my primary reason for wanting a bigger job. So I think focusing on the work and focusing on doing something, I know everyone says this, but if you're doing something that makes you look at the clock every day, you're probably doing the wrong thing. And not focusing on the title. Titles don't mean anything.

35:02I mean, the number of times I've walked into a room and there are very senior people in the room, people don't listen to a title. People listen to people who know what they're talking about, who have the experience. There's no replacement for experience. And now I think with this world of Instagram and social media where people see someone who yesterday was driving, you know, to work in a beater and now all of a sudden they're pulling up in a Bentley, that's just like being a supermodel. It's a lottery. It doesn't happen to everyone. And there's no replacement for hard work. And I think also, like, I'm just not interested in somebody who doesn't have anything to say.

35:38Like, I know how hard you worked. and there is pride and authenticity in that and you earned your position and that has staying power what doesn't is just you know the stuff that's on the surface yeah it's not that it's not that interesting at the end of the day we're all going to stop working and we're all going to be sitting next to each other at a dinner party and like i want to be somebody that people want to talk to one of the things you did at j crew was you turned at what looked like a traditional catalog into, I'd say, like a glossy magazine that showcased the brand from an entirely different perspective.

36:18It wasn't about just one piece. It was a curation of style, of identity, of color, of choices. Do you think that type of magazine exists in fashion today? I think it doesn't. I mean, from a magazine perspective, I would say magazines have shifted also in a completely different direction. I think what was nice about the catalog was that you could purchase everything and the prices were not that unattainable for a huge portion of the country. I think magazines, that world is so different. You know, I think one of the things that was really unusual is that a lot of designers started to say you can't mix clothes.

37:00So when I was coming up, I remember so vividly Teen Vogue had a really incredible stylist. And oftentimes she would take sport clothes and mix them with, you know, dress, you know, very dress up clothes. Back to the contradiction. Totally. And it was so inspiring, this idea of taking a couture ball gown and mixing it with a little Adidas sweatshirt. And, you know, it was so up my alley. And then over time, you know, because there were designers, you know, whether it would be a Ralph or a Prada, they wanted their clothing to look like it came off of the runway so that you could see what their brand was.

37:33And I understand why they're asking for that. But what it did is it sort of made it so that when you actually do a photo shoot, it's now one page is Tom Ford, one page is Prada, one page is Ralph. There isn't that mixing. And so we got to mix anything. thing. We were able to do whatever we wanted because we were all one brand. And so we were able to, I think, show people, you know, different ways to wear things that was a little bit more unexpected because we were only answering to ourselves, which was great. Let's talk about the power of social media. Is there an authentic way to use these platforms to accentuate a certain style and not just be a trend follower?

38:14When things don't feel authentic and you don't feel like you're getting a real inside piece of something or genuine conversation or point of it's so obvious it's so obvious and i think now you know it's interesting because i have a my son is is going to be 20 in a month and i can't believe i have 20 that's so weird i have 16 more years to go to that we'll talk later it goes really fast but what i i watch his connection to it and he is so discerning and so quick to say, mom, that's not real. Mom, I don't care about that. He wants to learn something and he wants to really learn something that feeds him.

38:54He's very different about his approach to social media. And I'm so happy about that because I do think, you know, I see I'll send him things and he's like, that's not cool, mom. I'm like, okay. I guess I won't do that. But he's really, he really does key into when somebody share something that feels authentic and real. He knows the difference immediately. I'm a little bit more susceptible because I think I came into it sort of midway through. Like I resisted personally for so long. And then when I did a TV show, they were like, you have to do it. And I was like, okay, so I have a funny relationship with it.

39:28But I think it's, listen, I think as AI continues to shift, it's going to take on even more of a sort of need for the authenticity that's going to become much more paramount than it is now even. I mean, who do you think is doing it well? What brands, in your opinion? From a brand perspective? I think, well, it depends on the size. I would say from a smaller scale, I think what Lila Gohar is doing, I don't know if you've seen her stuff, but I think she's a really interesting approach and it feels it's idiosyncratic and you can really see that idiosyncrasy. but very authentic to her exactly and i think you really you get a sense of her there is a a makeup artist named her name it goes by share webb who is out of england and she does these videos and she gets on she's like hello my beauties and she'll do a make and i like i find myself watching them they're you know like 15 minutes long they're so good because she's so you feel like you're in the living room with her so i think when that takes a lot of confidence by the way hello that is not i don't have that i could not no i mean she's beautiful and her makeup techniques are great you would love them because she's got your coloring so i'll oh i'll definitely yes because she's really good what i like about them is they're they're quirky and authentic and you see the personality in that and that i think is really interesting so let's shift gears and talk about the year that you left J.Crew.

40:50It's 2017 and you were nine years. Yeah, nine years. It was a big transition. Yes. And you were very honest about it. You described it as one of the most challenging, difficult periods of your career. Can you describe the first few months after leaving? I mean, I think in retrospect, I was deeply depressed. I don't think I realized at the time how, you know, ironically, I saw someone who I worked with for 17 years for breakfast yesterday morning, actually. And I realized part of what was so hard is these people had become my family. So while I lost my family, the people that I trusted, I enjoyed, I laughed with, I was fed with emotionally, I also lost my identity.

41:48I all of a sudden didn't really know who I was. I stopped getting invited to everything. I also had, you know, I had someone cooking for me every day. I had three assistants. I had a nanny. I had all these people taking care of me and all of a sudden I had none of them. I didn't need all these people. And I also was sort of like, I wanted to just be by myself. And so I, you know, I obviously had the assistant crew and then the people that were at home. And I just found myself really alone and confused about who my friends were and who they weren't. And it became very clear very quickly of who was really someone I could trust.

42:29And I think having it all fall out at once was really dark. It was dark. And also, I, you know, I didn't get a single phone call, you know, and I think people said to me, I don't believe you. But, you know, I was just talking to my friend about this yesterday morning, which was, I had become so synonymous with this brand that all of the bigger brands that could afford me didn't want me. I mean, what is Ralph or Michael Kors or Gap or Banana? They don't want me because I'm J.Crew. And they didn't want to bring in the person who was at J.Crew. Well, she's just going to make it look like J.Crew. And so, you know, on top of losing everything, I also wasn't getting any phone calls.

43:15It was scary. and I and then I separated from my girlfriend I mean it was just literally like talk about the house that I built it was just coming down brick by brick and and I couldn't really talk about it with anyone because I think most people were like oh you're so lucky you know I had a massive sevens agreement and like even though I wasn't fired I was it was an amicable negotiation and they were like you you have a non-compete you can't work anyway so well so I was in a good And, you know, I had a really good situation. So it was hard to be like, oh, woe is me. And so I was really quiet and just kind of hibernated.

43:54And it was not smart. I should have done something about it in retrospect. I really, yeah, it was dark. The thing that really touched me, what you just said, is about identity. and I can so relate to that because as a female athlete so much of your identity is shaped within the first 25 to 30 years of your life and when you come out of it and when I say come out of it it's like from one day you are a top athlete and the next day you wake up and you don't have a coach anymore and you don't have a physio you do not have an agenda you're not flying to a tournament and you just look around you and you're like, who am I?

44:43Who's with me? What am I doing? When am I starting? You have so many questions to answer. I wasn't depressed because I loved what I did for so long, but I loved it because my body and my mind was in it and my body was depleted. And even though my mind still wanted it, I was smart enough to recognize that you can't do this job without an engine and your body is your engine. And if you can't tap into everything that runs this body for you, then what do you have? Do you play tennis still? I don't. Not at all? Not like a few times. Really? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Do you think you'll teach your kids to he's not showing much interest i'm not kidding he's like he puts the ball away really yeah does your husband play like for fun i mean i make fun of him

45:52i remember like even now when i travel and sometimes you go to to a few countries where they still require you to fill out a form like on arrival and the very few countries that still do that and there it asks you what your occupation is and I always wrote athlete and every time I wrote it it made me feel so strong oh that's just writing out those words and I still continue to do that because I still feel that that is a huge part of my identity what did you do in the moment And how did you break through that identity crisis? Honestly, it took, I would say, over a year, almost more. And it wasn't until I started just taking phone calls and starting to think about, well, what could my life look like?

46:42I, you know, I had done everything I was expected to all of my life. I, you know, worked hard from the time I got out of college, married a man, had a baby, bought a house. Like I did the things I tried to move up in my career. And I remember really distinctly, I was like 40 years old and had a birthday party. And I had this beautiful brownstone in Brooklyn and had just been photographed in Domino magazine. And I was doing really well in my career. J.Crew had gone public. I have this beautiful little boy and a lovely husband and all of my friends in my backyard. And I remember just standing there and thinking like, I am not happy.

47:19Something was just off. And this was before I left, but I was I think there was things going on for me that I was still struggling with and didn't really I didn't know. I think I'd just done everything that everybody expected me to do and never really tapped into what made me happy. And so when no one called, I sort of realized I have this chance to try things that I probably wouldn't have tried before. I don't I would never have thought about going on TV or doing any of those things, mostly because I just assumed that I had to go and get another corporate job and, you know, work for the man, so to speak.

47:55And I mean, I could not be more thrilled. You know, I think I now a lot of the work that I do, which is consulting work, is so informed by all the different experiences I had. But I probably would never have found that if I had just gone and taken another corporate job. I would just be doing exactly the same thing in the grind. And I'm so much happier that I didn't. So you had this quiet period. A long quiet period. For a long time. Is that something in retrospect that you suggest? Or like if someone is going through a shift in their life or shift in their career, whether it's personally, professionally.

48:38I found that it was nice to take a step back and reevaluate. Yeah. I mean. But I'm hearing that it was so lonely that that also made it incredibly hard because you didn't have you didn't know who to reach out to and who to speak about it with. First of all, I agree. I think having it is a luxury, I think, from a financial standpoint to be able to take a bite, like a beat. And I feel deeply grateful that I had that time to let my mind wander and to entertain things. And I probably should have gotten help. I should have reached out and I should have had more community around me and I should have probably gone there.

49:15Like I just was not talking it out. And I, I, I should have. And I, I, so I, I think I would still, if I had to do all over again, I probably would take the time and I would give myself a little more scaffolding than I had. I really didn't, I did not see how unhappy I was and how scared I was and how lonely I was. I was just, it was lonely and it's not a lonely, like you and I are sitting together and we're having a car. It was a lonely and like, I had a huge life, a huge team and I, we laughed and I had so much fun and I loved making the clothes and I, it never got old. I just didn't want to be a manager in the way that I was at that point.

49:54I wasn't. And you go from that to sitting on your sofa alone. It's really, um, there should have been your boy's a teenager at the middle. He was, you know, I remember really distinctly when I started my own thing and we had this launch night and I could tell there was this glimmer in my son's eye. And I was like, I am so excited to see you happy. I said, what's so, what, you know, what's going on? And he's like, I'm just so happy you're back in the world. You know, it made me sad to see you sitting on the couch, mommy. And I was like, okay, I thought he would be so happy to have me around. And he was happy to have me around, but I think he was much happier seeing me be engaged in the world.

50:32And I was excited. I had something to talk about and something to share and something to make. I think there's also that part where you're creating something and you have something to show. You can show up at a match and someone can watch you play and you can actually have a beginning, middle and end to something that people can can they can process we were making all these clothes and then there was a catalog and we're like we made this thing as a team we created this and then all of a sudden I had nothing to show it was like you're walking the walk totally you're not talking to your son about it you're not talking to him about the problems about the solutions you're just you're showing up at work every day and you're showing an example and I mean I talk about this a lot with my girlfriends because we all have a version of mom guilt.

51:20Like I head out to this trip to do these recordings. You know, I drop off my son at school and I know I'm not going to be there for pickup and I'm going to miss bath time. And there is this, you know, hole in me that's like, I should be there. I want to be there. But I also have a career that I'm incredibly ambitious about. And I'm, by the way, not apologizing for it. Well, you should talk to my son if you ever feel bad. And he loves nothing more than to brag about me and to talk about all the things I do. And he is so proud. And there's never been a time where I've ever felt like he doesn't remember the stuff that I missed.

51:57When I ask him about his best memories from when he's little, he'll talk about coming into my office and getting to play with the girls who make jewelry. And he'll come coming to a fitting and getting to try on all the big coats and retaking it. You know, those are the things he remembers. you know walking into the office and everyone knew his name you know all the security guards are like hey Beck you know those are the memories that he says he has never said to me that he remembers when I went on a business trip he doesn't remember so if you need to pick me up you can talk to my son Beckett so it's 2023 and you surprise a lot of people by joining a very popular show Real Housewives of New York and then you surprise them by leaving the show two years later.

52:39Yeah. Well, talk me through the decision of going on the show. Well, I mean, I started an eyelash company, which I don't have any eyelashes because of my genetic disorder. So I was, you know, he very fortunately got into Target and they had purchased a huge number of units, which was very exciting. Over 750 ,000 units after seven months in business. Yes, we were clicking away at a very fast rate. But we were doing really well in New York and Chicago and L.A. and all the places that people really knew me from my previous life and understood what the brand was. But we weren't doing so well in some of the other states where people weren't as familiar with me or the brand.

53:17And so they had said to me, we need you guys to do some sort of national marketing. And I was like, yeah, we can't afford that. Well, this is before the show. And I was like, we can't afford that. And then through a long twist and turn, I ended up, you know, getting a call from Mandy Cohen. Would you consider? And I was like, this is the perfect avenue. It's the right audience. It is national. It is big all at once. And so... Your business hat went on. That was the reason. You know, I... What surprised you about reality TV? It's hard. I thought with all of my experience of running a company and being, you know, through a lot, we had had, I mean, 27 years, I had gone through a lot.

54:03I had seen ups and downs. I had had great bosses and terrible. You know, I had really experienced a lot of tears, a lot of heartache, a lot of very intense stress. So I was like, I can handle this. It's a bunch of women on a TV show. Like, I got this. It's not the same. I knew it was a TV show, but I couldn't help but take some of it personally. And it got under my skin. And I found myself really struggling sometimes. And I was really surprised. And it's also just hard to have a camera on you at all times in a vulnerable scenario. I don't know. I was not prepared for that part. It was fun. I'm glad I did it.

54:43I have no regrets. And it was really interesting to see the process and how it went. But it was definitely for my emotional well-being, probably. I'm just not cut out for it. You know, I don't think that I'm like. And you don't know until you try. You don't know until you try.

55:04So tell me about Fundamental Co. Sure. Because you're helping frame brand as a value creation for private equity firms and portfolio companies, which is sort of an unusual another another side yes walk me through that it was during the pandemic and I was you know we were just finishing I just finished another tv show so I'd done a tv show called stylish with Jenna Lyons this was prior to um during the housewives and I remember talking to this guy who was a dear friend um on the beach Johnny Bauer because that's where all the conversations happened and the pandemic was on the beach. And he was working at a company called Blackstone and he had established with Inside Blackstone, basically a brand sort of, what I would say is taking all the different brands they made and if they needed a carve out, if they were preparing for an exit, if they were looking for a rebrand, and Johnny would oversee that team who really re-established and rethought about what that brand could be.

56:06And so when he was doing that, He asked if I would help consult some of the companies that he was working on where he didn't necessarily have people internally who understood that world. So there was a home company. There was a fashion company. There was a beauty company. And they were all things that I had experience with. And I had never really consulted before. I had been on the receiving end of consultants. It's totally different than anything I've ever done. But I get to use my brain in a much more interesting way. And everything is different. Every company that we work with is different.

56:36Every challenge is different. Every ask is different. They're not all. And every stage of the company must be different. You know, taking a brand and and transmitting what that brand is about. The simpler, the better, the more complicated and convoluted and and laid in the messages, the more hard, the harder it is for the consumer to to understand that. And I think with age and experience comes that realization, like, don't be afraid for it to be simple, like brick to forehead. It is OK. You don't need to spin a fantastical web. What you need to do is think about like core focus, what's important.

57:13That is the nucleus of everything. And then you can go from there. Let's talk about AI. I want to pick your brain. Do you use it? A hundred percent. What do you use it for? I remember when AI first started and I was like, oh, OK, now I can, you know, change, you know, change what my countertop looks like in my kitchen and I see if I want to change the color. And I was using it, thinking about it in a very simplistic way and a very and truthfully, AI's worst trait right now is creative. It's not actually there yet in terms of the creative. It's one of the last bastions of research. And I think all these all these gyms for AI are training in fintech and finance for all the reasons we understand.

57:54And so, you know, I think what I was hoping that I would use it for isn't really what I would use it for. I think what I find it is great at for just day-to-day life, not, and I wouldn't talk about this in terms of work because I think in work we're really thinking about it in a different way. We're thinking about AI really in terms of how can you optimize or rethink what a business could be, not like making small iterative changes like data research, because that's easy. For me, it's it's I have like a well of conversations and those conversations have sort of started to get this my little cloud bot to know to know who I am.

58:32I think training your little bot to know you and, I mean, to make it more personal is honestly like, which is a little weird, scary. Well, yeah, it's the world of unknown. I did ask it to read everything about me so that it knows who I am and to understand where I'm coming from. So when it makes suggestions, it's informed. But I think having it know you a little bit and being able to actually build a structure around you so that it can make good suggestions for all parts of your life. I don't use it for anything creative as of right now because it just doesn't really have any taste. My husband makes these very funny images of like my son on a very large horse or like playful images that are so ridiculous.

59:21He has more time on his hands. Yeah, that's what I tell him. I'm like, you do the work, honey. I mean, I do really love that stuff. I mean, I think. But it's amazing how it's done in 15 seconds. It is. It's creepy. It's so creepy. It's so creepy. But how do you think AI will impact fashion? I mean, that's a good question. I think probably much more on the manufacturing side than anything else. I mean, I think I'm sure you've seen already that people are sewing and wearing cameras. And I think the actual supply chain will be much more impacted than I think we understand. There is, you know, I'm very curious to see, particularly as you get to handwork, like any sort of beading and that kind of stuff.

1:00:06I have no idea if robots or like what the future of that is. It's a little unpredictable. What about models? You know, it's interesting. I think that there will be a certain sector that will probably, you know, shift into using AI models. I mean, listen, if you look at it, as the world moves more and more online, already you see things where, you know, it's just the model's head is cut off and it's the same body. So now that you can actually start to change that swimsuit or that jean. But the fact of the matter is, I think, as we talked about earlier, the more. Like silicone the world becomes, I think the more analog and touchy people are going to be.

1:00:50I think it's interesting to talk to the younger generation. They're so in desire of authenticity. They're not embracing. They're embracing it in terms of supply chain or things being easier, but not. as much in like it it severs trust I think a lot in terms of anything creative so I I certainly hope there's no way that we will get away with it not impacting the fashion industry and models and all that I'm sure it will at a certain point but I think it's not going to be um I don't think it'll touch the create like the product being made I'm there or created I suppose time I'm saying this but like I'm like time will tell I know we can have another conversation in five years and see where we are.

1:01:34I think it's so hard to understand where it's going. What do you think of the word tastemaker? I was going to play a little game with you. It's just a few fashion choice questions and I want your take. Okay. If you've made any of them yourself. Don't worry. You won't hurt my feelings. Okay. Dress codes for weddings. Yay or nay? I okay I love a dress code and I love a theme and here's why I don't like ugly pictures I like everyone I love it when someone says please wear black and white or please wear white or please wear pink you like direction well because the photos look better I just care about a pretty photo I could give a shit where you get your clothes I don't care what you wear but just let's make the picture look good animal print on a first date you can wear whatever the hell you want on a first date.

1:02:25No rules. Really? Yeah. If you are feeling like you want to wear an animal print on a first date, like by all means, go for it. Couture on the tennis court. 100. Please. You're all for it. Please. Who am I talking to? Oh my God. Nothing would make me heavier. Karate pant for every day. I think I know the answer. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. I wear, I have these matto. You would love them. They would look so good on you. The matto pants? The Meadows. Do you have them? Yes. I love them. They're my favorite. I love the brand. And I get so many compliments on them and they're perfect for tall girls.

1:03:00A neutral lip since you're wearing a bright lip. My rule is a lip and no eye, eye and no lip. Oh, I like that. I mean, you can have a little bit to just give definition. I don't have any eyelashes, so I have to do something. So one or the other. But one or the other. Please, I don't want to see a red lip. I mean, unless you're like, you know, in a movie, music video or something, then you can do whatever you want. But on a day-to-day basis, I don't need to see an eye and a lip at the same time. It's too much for me. Trying too hard. It's too much for me. That's Jenna's version of trying too hard.

1:03:29What is a routine that's helped shape your success? This is a hard one. The thing that I recommend to everyone is hire people who are smarter than you and don't be afraid to hire really smart people. I think sometimes I remember really distinctly someone came in after having interviewed. Someone said, this girl could have my job. And I'm like, great, then hire her. those are the people that allow you to do more. And I think sometimes people get afraid of having people around them that could really nip at their heels. And I think it's a good thing. What is a common misconception about you? That I'm a cunt.

1:04:04I mean, we should end it on that note. But we do have two more. What is something?

1:04:15What makes you feel tough? i can't take her seriously sorry um i don't know if i ever really feel tough it's not really in my lexicon i don't i can feel confident and that would be like a five inch heel but power suit suits don't really do it it's the it's the height which i imagine you probably felt like there's something really powerful but you're already tall i know but there's something really nice about being really tall. And I remember when, I'll never forget, when we were basically going on a, when you are getting ready to IPO, you go on a tour, as you're familiar with this, and I'll never forget our CFO saying, where are the highest heels you've got?

1:05:00And I was like, okay. It impacts people the way they perceive you. It is really, and I don't know, so I love a high heel. Tough as a high heel. Love it. And what is something that makes you feel pretty? I would say when Cass takes my picture. And that is a beautiful picture. She's so talented. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you for joining our little podcast. This is not a little podcast. It's a big grown-up podcast.

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