Ep. 08 / Crafting a World of Desire with Jennifer Zuccarini, Founder of Fleur du Mal

0:04I'm Natasha Jakoboski and this is my podcast professional jealousy where I talk to people that I'm impressed by and yes a little bit envious of. I'm hoping that you too will enjoy hearing about people's enviable achievements that we can all learn from in our own journeys and today I'm talking with Jennifer, I was just thinking about your, all right I'm going to do it again. Zuccarini. Yeah, today I'm talking with Jennifer Zuccarini, a fashion entrepreneur, designer, innovator in the world of luxury lingerie and lifestyle she founded not one but two amazing brands most recently fleur de mal which i have to say is just a gorgeous experience you know in store online lingerie ready to wear swim founded in 2012 and i think one of the things that we'll really talk about is how she conjures up just a multi-dimensional brand.

1:11So you can really feel it in a way that I think is quite impressive. We'll also talk a little bit about her first brand, Kiki de Montparnasse, another amazing lingerie brand. So hello. Hello. Thank you for having me, Natasha. It's such a pleasure. Thank you for coming. There are so many things I want to ask you. I'm going to try and get them all out in a way that makes sense. But first, just in case anyone out there hasn't heard of Fleur de Mal, give me your elevator pitch. What is Fleur de Mal? Yes. So I created Fleur de Mal really to inspire women to embrace their sensuality and sexuality. And I've always been very passionate about lingerie and intimate apparel and ready to wear where those two worlds intersect and um the whole world of desire and that was really my the founding sort of idea behind Laura Jumal it's amazing um I love the idea that uh yeah you're an entrepreneur that's all about creating desire um living in that world of sex sensuality um what is it how did you what what what drew you to this space you know I always knew I wanted to be in fashion since I was probably about eight or nine years old I decided I wanted to be a designer uh at that age and was sketching and actually took sewing lessons when I was eight.

2:56So I was pretty committed to that path. I had watched, you know, I used to read every fashion magazine I watched. I grew up in Toronto and there were a lot of, um, actually fashion TV shows on at that time, like FTV, fashion television, um, you know, style with Elsa Clench. I don't know if you remember these shows. Amazing. I used to watch all those. And I was like, I want to be a fashion designer. And I was very you know enamored with um john galliano and uh jean paul gautier it's a pretty sophisticated eight-year-old yeah yeah i loved i just felt like that's what i wanted to do so that was the start and then i started working in fashion when i was 14 15 i started working in retail i wasn't even legal to have a job but I got a job at a boutique selling really high-end denim in Toronto and um and that started kind of started me on my path and I um you know personally I loved lingerie I mean I used to be a huge agent provocateur fan right when they launched um and to me that was there's this emotional connection that people have with intimate apparel with lingerie people that are real fans where it's like I have to have it you know like I I need to own this yeah yeah yeah basic to something you want actually that was agent provocateur really was that change for me it went from I'm from England like going to M &S was a bit of a you know actually a bit of a trial every time I had to get a bra um so for me agent provocateur just changed everything suddenly it was craveable you know suddenly it wasn't just utility it was you know it was a whole new world yes that was that was the brand that really changed everything for me I would say I you know when I was probably when I was like 19 or 20 um you know I'd say to my friends like I I need to, I just, I want to spend a lot of money on lingerie.

5:16And they were like, why? I don't know. I need this. Like this is, and sometimes, you know, for people that are into that space, it's not even sometimes about wearing it. It's just like, you want to own it. It's a very like, almost like collecting things. Um, I mean, I wear, I love to wear things, but you know, I do have some pieces in the past that I have never worn that I just like, I almost collect it. So there's something very, there's something there, but I didn't think that that's what I was going to do at all. That was just my personal interest. But I was always inspired by designers that incorporated a lot of lingerie elements into their designs.

5:53When you think about, you know, Alexander McQueen or Galliano, there's always that like corset reference, intimate apparel, fabrics and lace. And that always drew me in. And when I started going to fashion school and sketching, you know, my work always brought that in. So it was kind of there, but I never, because my dream was always like, I'm going to be a designer. I'm going to have a fashion brand and runway shows and that whole kind of cliche thing of what you think it's going to be. I didn't really think about underwear and lingerie because that didn't, that world didn't fit with my idea of fashion at that time.

6:34So that's really why I wanted to bring those things together. So how did Kiki de Montparnasse turn up? Like, how did it become a brand? Like, you had co-founders. I do remember, it's interesting thinking about, you know, I think it was so different and new on the scene. I remember going to the Soho store, and it was different from something like an Asian profilcater, partly because it wasn't just lingerie. It was, you know, I feel like Agent Fogta had like maybe a whip, but you built a whole, you know, I feel like you were one of the first brands to really explore how to bring in toys and, you know, sex for women in a way that was just so sophisticated and desirable and, you know, permissive in a way that I don't think had been done before.

7:33How did it come about? Yes. So at that time, my partner, my boyfriend at that time, him and I were thinking about starting a brand together. And, you know, he was more on the business and sales and marketing side and I was on the design side. And we were kind of developing this idea of what this brand would be. and we went to pitch it to a person who's very well known in the industry who ended up being our investor. And he, he was like, you know what? I, and this, this brand we were conceptualizing was very sexy, but it was not, it was not necessarily like what Kiki became. He said, I want you to meet somebody who has a similar idea, who wants to do something similar to what you guys are working on.

8:25So why don't you guys meet and see if there's something there. And through that meeting, that really kind of became the idea of what Kiki would become, which was everything to enhance your intimate life and creating this luxury experience. And it really resonated with me because yes, there was nothing like that really in the U S there was no, if you wanted to go buy a vibrator or lubricant or anything, you know, you'd have to like that. You'd have to go to you know like the pleasure chest or which there's nothing wrong with that but it's not like an elevated experience yeah yeah some rubbish store on sixth avenue exactly a bit dingy yeah yeah yeah and it's kind of a joke change the the whole approach to it yes we were like why don't we create something that could feel like going to chanel but you're buying these beautiful things to enhance your intimate life.

9:19And that became really a concept store where it was much more than just lingerie and toys, but it was art and music and books and everything and events. And we had a beautiful, beautiful space in Soho that was, I had no idea how this concept was going to be received. We were like, are people going to be upset? I mean, we're selling sex toys. I mean, I just didn't. And I had a lot of reservations, too, because I my friends were like, do you want to be known as like the sex toy person? Is that what you want your brand to be? And I had to really think about that because it's, you know, especially back then, it was more now it feels very common and you see it around a lot more.

10:04But then it felt like, yeah, do I want to be defined by that? Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I mean, yeah, you really changed the game. I didn't realize that you started it with your boyfriend. How was... At the time. At the time. Well, so, I mean, like, there's so much to talk about, but so obviously Kiki did end. Can you talk about that? How did you feel about, I mean, how many years was it in business for? It's still in business. It has new owners. um i you know i so my that boyfriend who i'm still very good friends with actually andrew um he you know him and the other co-founder had a falling out and parted ways and i stayed on but i i realized after i you know i was at kiki for almost like it was about four years actually um i was just you know i don't know i wasn't at some point i wasn't happy there anymore i wanted to do something really more on my own and I was thinking about that and at that time I was approached by Victoria's Secret um which at first I was like no I would never do that no not for me I don't you know but I always think it's really important to take the meeting and have the conversation and learn about what the opportunity is and I decided you know I decided to take to take this opportunity to go to Victoria's Secret and really learn from, you know, the biggest lingerie brand in the world, which they still are.

11:42But at that time, you know, they were, this was the heyday of Victoria's Secret when things were going very well. And I decided to leave and take that opportunity. And so after that, Kiki went through a lot of ups and downs and ended up a couple years later going into a form of not quite bankruptcy but a restructure yeah and then it was sold and all the stores closed and it's sort of it's a different thing now I don't yeah yeah yeah I I didn't realize it still operated how did it feel you made me that was your baby I mean like surely it must have felt hard to make the decision to we're going to talk about Victoria's Secret but how I mean like it seems like a massive decision no I know it's you know it was a hard decision but I think it's it's very different from how I feel about my company Fleur which is truly something I built on my own I do have investors but I built this from scratch yeah and I've put everything every everything into this company um I think with Kiki I did I was it was my life you know for for my partner at that time and I we were you know I worked seven days a week yeah I mean I worked every single day all the time nights like I was that was my life um I think it was more it was hard to leave but at the same time I knew that I had this bigger vision of something I wanted to create that I truly owned on my own and so going this other opportunity that came up with Victoria's Secret, I knew instinctively after meeting with them probably 10 times that this would help get me there.

13:31Because I felt like ultimately I wanted to raise money and create something new. And if I had just done this one thing that was beautiful and luxury, really represented luxury, but hadn't scaled that people would not have faith in me that I could scale a business. So going to learning from, you know, $6 billion at that time, company was so valuable, I think, to how I would be perceived in the market. Just quickly, any advice for people out there in terms of co-founders, how you, you know, it sounds like you realized that you didn't want or need them and that you had a vision to create something that was you know there was more your own any advice for people on co-founders or how to protect yourself from you know creating something with someone else I think there's a lot of incredible businesses that have co-founders so I think there's when you find the right fit it's like any it's like a marriage it's you have to have that yin and yang that you compliment each other, that you don't overlap too much in your strengths, I think can be a really beautiful thing and really accelerate a business if you have the right co-founder.

14:53I wasn't opposed to it, but I didn't have anyone that naturally felt like that was that person for me. And my sister is a very successful entrepreneur and, and my father was also an entrepreneur and he was very against partners because he was, he was really burned by a partnership when he was younger. And so he was very anti that. And my sister was like, just hire the people you need. You know, you don't have to have a co-founder. You don't have to have a partner, just hire the talent. And, you know, You don't have to deal with that. And I think as a woman, sometimes people are like, well, who's your co-founder?

15:36They really want to see that. And I was like, I don't have one. Not that I don't need one. I just don't have one. I could have had one, but it just didn't work out that way. So I don't think it's the same. You don't necessarily need one. I mean, it's nice to have. It's good to have a partner that, you know, as I said, complements your skills, but it's not essential. Yeah. And so what what I mean, I can't even imagine like Victoria's Secret really was in its heyday then. Like, what did you learn? What did you it sounds like you were really focused on. I'm going to build my thing. I'm going to get this on my resume.

16:16I'm going to learn what I can and go out and do my second brand by myself. And yeah, so what did it give you? What did you learn? I learned so much. I mean, I think, one, I had never been anywhere corporate. I'd always been in working in startup environments. And I, you know, I probably thrive in that setting. But I think, you know, I just, I had never been anywhere, like, as massive as Victoria's Secret and worked with such a vast team and people all over the world and I really learned you know how a company like that organizes itself to produce on that scale. I learned a lot about the American kind of tastes you know like what people what women in the U.S.

17:15are looking for how that varies from market to market yeah give me some examples because you were very new based at yeah yeah you know I think I went in with this perception that everybody wants nicer things you know like like I love silk I just love silk I think it's a great fabric I think it's durable I think people don't think it's like a very you know I love the way it feels against your skin so in my head and this was like wrong completely wrong in my head I was like everybody wants silk is it so nice damn it people want t-shirt bras and they want t-shirt bras that are really padded you know um so anyway I worked really hard for example one thing I worked on which was so funny it was like trying to get silk in the collection at Victoria's Secret at the right price point and I like really had to push hard with sourcing and and you know our factories and I'm like no no no I'm what this is gonna be amazing we're gonna get silk and you know pajama like slip slips and pajamas and underwear and then so we did it and you know it did not work well at all it was not selling and the merchants were like yeah she doesn't like silk she likes she prefers poly yeah wears better washes better exactly yeah and I get that but that was just something I had to really, it sounds really basic on some level, but I had to learn that because I just went in with like, I'm here to make things better.

18:46I'm here to like make things more luxurious. Yeah. But that's not, I think, you know, we would create these bras that were like, add two cup sizes, for example. Yeah. You know, like a bra that was literally filled with foam. Filled with stuff. Yeah. Yes. And I, at the time I was like, who's going to wear this? This is crazy like we would kind of like make fun of it at the office you know people would like put on their head and like you know wear it around because if you're a b cup it would make you a d cup

19:16that's amazing but yes that's what people a lot of people want that at that time you know i think tastes have shifted a little bit but um and you know i think most american women don't necessarily care about matching sets or you know they're going to buy underwear and they're going to buy bras and those don't have to match yeah yeah that's that's every day that's everyday life for people unfortunately not matching sets um so i mean obviously there's been so much turmoil we we talked about i think we talked about in your office uh my conversations with with uh some of the vs um kind of leadership but um what do you think of their rebrand stuff what do you think of what they've been trying to turn it around?

19:59I think it's still early days. And I think they're, you know, I felt like the last couple of years they've been trying to do everything. I mean, just like everything, sign every person, sign, sign, you know, yeah. Every influencer, every major model, every, you know. And I think, I don't know, I think it was lacking a bit of authenticity as to really what is this brand standing, what does this brand mean today yeah and um I think you know I didn't think the show was bad I I watched it um it's tough I I don't know I I think I I know too much to I think I think they have a good chance of getting back there but now now people have much they have many more choices in the market and before they did not so I don't know if a lot of people will go back um you know part of Victoria's Secret being so successful was every mall had a Victoria's Secret yeah it was accessible to everybody if you needed something go in there and you could probably find something around what you were looking for because they covered a lot of different yeah you know styles and things um whereas now everyone's shopping online and there's a lot of competition but they're still the biggest in the world i know i was i remember reading about how many pairs of knickers they sell it's just mind-boggling yeah i think it's what do you think i think we're going to talk about uh florida mal more but i i think you're right like i think they're you know as with lots of big brands that um have a crisis because part of what made them successful is just kind of out of time, you know, and I think they don't know what they want to be, and I think that's the hardest thing, you know, it's all very well when you're a small brand, and you know who you're for, and it's, you know, you've created it, they've got all this history, all this legacy, and they've kind of just been trying to, you know, figure out who they are, and I'm not sure that's, I'm not sure they've figured that out.

22:12I do think it's interesting that you know when you started thinking about fleur de mel it actually is a different price point from kiki so you you kind of talked to me about the kind of evolution of your thinking from kiki to bs to um the creation of this wonderful brand yeah i think being at Victoria's Secret and really learning that and understanding what price points were working at that scale, you know, really more on a mass level. I felt I wanted to create a brand that was focused on direct to consumer and was more in this attainable price point world. Yeah. Because I felt with Kiki, for example, even though there's a market for that, there's a market for$300 bras.

23:07And, you know, we made everything in New York, and it was very expensive to produce the things that we made there, that I felt that it was challenging to scale. And I wanted, I like having a younger customer that can come back and shop with us again and again. And that's what I felt was tricky with certain price points. It just becomes a smaller group of people that can participate. So I wanted Fleur to be more, a little more like fun, a little more fashion, more accessible, but still feeling like wrapped in that luxury point of view. But definitely, you know, for me, I always want the personality of Fleur being, you know, chic, being elevated, but being cheeky and, you know, having a sense of humor is, but smart is always important to me.

24:01I want people to be like, kind of have a laugh too and like be entertained a bit. Yeah, there's definitely something more accessible, not because of the price point necessarily, but it's not as serious as Kiki. It's not quite as entering the boudoir. I feel like I love that about it because again, with Agent Focateur too, it's just too serious in a funny way. Exactly. We want to cover our customer for every moment in her life. So, you know, I want you to wear our bra when you're feeling like you want to be a little more sensual that day. But I also want you to wear our bra every day. Yeah. Whatever you're doing, we should have something for you.

24:42Who is your consumer? Who do you design for? Or do you have many, do you have different personas? We have a couple of personas. I mean, I always think I really personified Fleur from the beginning and thought about who she is. And, you know, definitely there's a lot of me in there. There has to be. So it's an easy filter to put things through. But, you know, I really design. First, I'm just thinking about this like concept or I'm thinking about what's inspiring me. What's getting me excited? What's getting the team excited? We're like, oh, my God, this embroidery is so fun. Like we have to do something with this.

25:22What are we going to do? Or we want to capture something that's going on. You know, we did this whole food, Italian food thing last summer. Yeah, amazing. So it's like, how do we take, you know, farfalle pasta and make it sexy? And that's to me when I'm having the most fun. And I feel like that comes through in our work and that also resonates with our customers. So I'm thinking about a customer, but it's not necessarily, I'm thinking about more through the lens of the brand always. and hoping that resonates with our customer. All right. So tell me about the creation of the brand. Did you have the concept first?

26:04Did you come up with the name first? Like, talk to me about, so in my day job, I helped create brands and products. Like, what came first? The concept came first because I knew I wanted to do something. I was like, I know I want it to be in this space. I felt like my sort of thing, my sweet spot was really merging, ready to wear fashion and lingerie and taking more of that approach to lingerie, more of a fashion approach. So I knew that I had that. And then thinking about like this world of desire. So that's where I started and knowing that I wanted it to be online and this different price point.

26:44Yeah. A step up from a Victoria's Secret, but not as expensive as La Perla was at that time, for example so I started with the concept and I was looking for a name and I was just pulling things you know like what is the concept versus what's not you know I think that's a great way to and for people thinking about starting a brand um you know I had all my like visual like all my references and boards and yeah mood boards and tons of mood boards I mean it's kind of sad now because I feel like everything's digital and I have folders now like hundreds of folders of things like it's just crazy and i can't i don't even know because now it's been like 12 13 years um it's it's insane but i still have some of my original boards when i was making physical boards that i have stored away because they were so beautiful yeah and now i feel like you know printing everything out feels not right yeah we save the paper those original mood boards sounds amazing yes yeah yeah I have them I have photos of them your name the then I was looking for a name by the poems of Baudelaire yes yes so then I was looking for a name so I was always writing down ideas for names and you know it's so hard to come up with the right name and uh I was like and it was like girls names and this and that and I wasn't necessarily thinking about a French name but I I really wanted something that resonated and I was traveling randomly I was in Buenos Aires traveling and I was in a bookstore and I came across the Les Fleurs du Mal, the famous collection of poems by Baudelaire.

28:20And I was like, oh, this is such a cool name for something. You know, I never really thought about it. And so I just wrote it down and then I didn't tell anybody about it. And then I was kind of searching to see, but I liked it in the singular better, also to differentiate it from the book. And I was trying to figure out, you know, is anyone using this? And there was like some Japanese band that had that name and there wasn't much out there. And then I started, you know, I didn't, I, I didn't, you know, I think before you share with people, you want to be always thoughtful because you don't want someone to like kill your, your idea and say that that name's, it's not a good name.

29:00So I started like selectively telling people and, you know, I have some French friends. I was like, what do you think about this and they're like oh I love it it's great amazing then yeah then a couple of people were like you know because sometimes that's the name of the books translated to flowers of evil so evil sounds like but I don't really think of mal as necessarily meaning evil per se I would think about it more as like bad flower um and I like the duality of the name um and I think Baudelaire was this tortured poet and writer who you know spent all of his money on opium and clothing and women and was this dandy yeah and I like it I like the story and I like I just the whole thing felt right to me yeah I love that um I was looking at your logo and it has that duality it has not just the flower but the thorns yes the f is thorns is made up of thorns um did how did you literally bring the visual identity to that i mean you're a designer did you sketch out stuff or did you work with people i worked with base design i don't know if you know them they're amazing um i they did the branding for kiki de montparnasse they're the original branding um and identity so i went to them and they're very good friends of and I just shared with them everything I had, all my mood boards, all my ideas, all.

30:35And yeah, and they came up with the logo and then we like refined it together, you know, to make it like sharper and more thorny. And, you know, but it was, you know, it's so hard to do, I feel like, to create something and you're like, that's it. Yeah. So when it happens, it feels really good. How has the brand evolved? I can't believe you founded it in 2012. How has it evolved over time? I feel like there's actually been a crazy amount of change in terms of how women think about their bodies, in terms of the generations. Yeah, what's changed since you created the brand? I think, yeah, so we launched at the end of 2012.

31:27You know, things have changed where I feel they've changed, but they haven't in a weird way. I, I think that, you know, people often ask me, has the brand, is the brand like so different than how you thought it was going to be? And my answer is not really. It is kind of similar to how it was when we started. I think that I think that you know in some ways we've progressed in some ways we have not if you think about the state of women right now in the world I think it's a bit scary actually this moment so I hope that we can stand for something that is more about embracing your sexuality owning it and feeling that confidence I definitely think talking about if you think you know you know obviously following everything that's happening with talking about menopause and i think the conversation around women's sexuality is much more present yeah than it was 12 years ago um it's much more calm it's just everywhere and i think with podcasts and you know the information traveling the way it does now with social media um it's that's been amazing i think everyone is much more comfortable to be for people to talk about a vibrator or I own one or I use one or whereas I think before that was a little like we'll talk about that but what about bodies I mean like I do feel you know whether it's I mean I said to you that I just assumed that Florida Mouth wouldn't have my size because I feel like no one had my size apart from you know a few not very not very aspirational brands but like I feel like that's been a big change like people have realized that there are different you know more size inclusivity um I and I look at some of my daughter's friends I'm like wow I definitely wouldn't have worn some of those things when I was younger like showing not not thinking about showing bellies and etc like do you see that or you think it the brand kind of is just is a kind of you know stays the course and culture changes around you no I think we're always shifting with culture and I think that the intimate apparel industry was really early on embracing diverse body diversity and size inclusivity um you know we expanded our cup sizing in 2018 where now we go up to 40g in some styles and I think you know a lot of people don't do it because it's a really big investment um some of our bras we have 35 sizes of one style even more and so when you think about producing that first it's very hard to produce bras right to yeah production for intimate apparel it's very um technical it's expensive so but i get why smaller brands don't do it i couldn't i had to get to a certain place where we could afford to actually build out that part of the collection.

34:34And it was important for me because people always ask for it. And, you know, everyone was like, why, you know, I can't find a sexy bra that fits larger cup sizes. And there was such a desire for it that we really wanted to capture that. And, you know, at Victoria's Secret, they really, now I don't know how, I'm sure they've expanded sizing, but when I worked there, they really rarely went above a D or a double D. Yeah. and it was just it was a conscious choice because of the production issues around it yeah the cost I mean which blows my mind like the size of America you know I feel like I mean I'm I'm not that size like if I'm not that size then surely half the country is not that size there's a lot of women out there wearing the wrong size bra oh yes a lot oh so many I mean I see it all the time it's hard for me not I just went to my friend did a clothing swap and I went and I saw like all these women were changing and it took everything for me not to go up to somebody and say like that's not your right bra size like can I and I didn't want to I was like oh you know it's amazing to me though I really see it a lot yeah I'm sure I mean yeah I'm sure it's because it's your world you're like see all these amazing women just doing something fundamental wrong it's so yeah um I'm not yeah I must admit it's also one of those categories that's so emotional like I don't I can't think of a single category where other than lingerie that I've literally cried in a in a in a fitting room I mean like why why did you cry well just I don't know it just brings up stuff like I have you know a larger cup size and you know just finding something that fits and then it's so depressing when it doesn't and you're you know there are bits coming out everywhere like it's just one of those emotional like how is that one of the reasons you like it or you're passionate about it like the I feel like there's just so much emotion and there's good emotions like feeling like you've got a spring in your step when you you know when you've got that amazing new underwear on no one knows but you just walk differently but like oh yeah that's 100 how do you feel about like the emotions in the category that's what that's everything I love about it that's why I do it I you know I think as I said earlier I think you know it is such an emotional category it's like beauty in that way too that it can really it's something that a lot of people purchase for themselves to make themselves feel better even if no one else sees what you're wearing it has that transformative power um and yes that too it's like if you if you if you're not wearing the right undergarments sometimes everything you put on top is not going to look as good totally so it there's there's so many layers of of benefits from just you feeling better because you're wearing this pretty beautiful thing at you looking better you you know putting that extra effort in you know it's like anything it's like when you take that extra time to blow out your hair or do your makeup a certain way and you're just like I feel good you know I'm ready to get out there um so I love that's what I really draws me to this world the most and you know I have a friend of mine she was she said I don't know I should like I put floor on and I feel that there's like magic in the clothing that's making me feel like sexier and better yeah and I was like oh I love that I love that feeling that somehow yeah I had never thought about it that way and I'm not saying but there's something about like could the energy that we put into it actually like live within the clothing that people are wearing and they feel that yeah maybe yeah definitely um what about how are you great you know you talked about not necessarily scaling kiki how how did how have you how do you market how how have you scaled so you've been DTC you have a couple of in-person locations but I love some of the kind of collaborations and you know You seem to have amazing, famous people.

38:43Is that just happening? Or tell me about how you've kind of scaled and marketed. I think, well, we're mostly, I think we've always been very much oriented as an e-commerce company. And so we were, I think, you know, we're pretty invested in, as a lot of brands are, in performance marketing. But equally, I think we're, you know, we're a brand. We're brand first. We're not a solutions-oriented business. So everything that we've always done has been about building an affinity to the brand. And I think that also gives us permission to expand into other categories. We're not just like the bra that's going to solve the perfect t-shirt bra.

39:28It's like it's a world of. So I think building a brand is hard. You have to hit it from every angle. It's constantly, you know, being kind of being at the right place at the right time, having the right product, the creative, you know, how we're advertising, who we're partnering with partnerships, where we're opening stores. You know, I think we're lucky that we've always had a lot of amazing celebrities drawn to the brand that has been very organic. um it's organic but it's not without effort because you know it's building those relationships it's if those stylists or those people don't see the brand then you're not you're not in the mix um so it's yeah I mean fashion's hard in that way it's it it never stops it just it's it's a new collection all the time five times a year we have new pretty much every week we launch new product so I think it's um constantly thinking about how you cut through all that noise and show something that people even remember that resonates with them yeah no insane um god I'm already running out of time I've got so many questions um what do you do do you have any practices or you know what do you do to stay sane yeah I do you know during the pandemic I really got into some healthy habits that I pretty much maintained that really helped me start my day.

40:59For me, the morning is my sacred time where I need to get myself centered for the day. So I, one, I love getting a good night's sleep. Love sleep, number one. I will sacrifice it for a fun night out. But other than that, I want to get like seven or eight hours sleep. Usually what I do is I wake up I love to do meditation I'll meditate for 10 minutes 10 15 minutes I'll do red light therapy while I meditate I'll do a workout workout in the morning the best thing I ever did was change my workout schedule to the morning which I did many many years ago when I was younger I used to work out at night yeah what's that was I do I do a lot of Pilates like reformer Pilates like SLT and all of that type of thing.

41:49I just started doing boxing now and then. So I have a group of friends that do boxing once a week. So occasionally I do that. I'll do berries now and then because I like to do more weights as well. I like doing so many things. I love if I'm out, like I love biking outside. I don't do it in the city that much anymore, but I love riding a bike. I'll go for a run. I'll go. I went, I did a yoga class yesterday, dance. I'm really passionate about I love dancing more than anything so I'll go to I love forward space amazing so you know anything to get your I really believe in the mind-body connection and when you get your body moving you it centers you it grounds you it gets you in the right state of mind like I really believe that's so so I I know it so for me it's really important amazing um what uh what do you have kind of thoughts about long-term short-term things goals goals for the brand what's new on the horizon what's coming up we're opening more stores so I just signed a lease to open in Williamsburg so Brooklyn store um we're looking you know hopefully this year we'll open three or four new stores but with a plan to open even more over the next few years so I think physical retail continuing to scale our online business um international i think is a really exciting opportunity we have a great following internationally that we haven't really tapped into so um there's a lot i'm planning with that um you know i'm really i really just want to see the full potential of what fleur can be in the world and continue growing it as a global a global brand that you know i want everybody to know about amazing all right last few questions quick fire um yeah let's see all right uh best career advice worst career advice you've ever had oh worst career advice I've never thought about that um best career advice you know I think it's something that we've heard before but it really always rings true for me it's that resilience that even if you feel like you're not going to make it you have to pick yourself up and just keep going and at all costs.

44:11If you want, if you really believe in something, um, no matter what happens, you have to be able to weather that storm and not let it break you. And, uh, that's something, you know, I, when I had a really rough patch with Fleur, maybe a year or two after we launched and I almost ran out of money, I thought I was going to close the business. Like I had a moment and thank god i didn't do that but it felt like i was at this inflection point this point where i didn't know if i could make it and then i had to like buckle down and just fight you know fight to survive so i think that was the best of a friend of mine was like you're gonna make it through like you're just you're gonna get through this i've been there i've been there you're gonna get through it and I needed that worst business advice oh my gosh I've had good advice that I didn't follow and a lot a lot of good advice that I received in the beginning was like why are you trying to do so many things like why don't you focus more and just you know do this thing but you don't have to do everything all at once yeah and that was something that even though i knew it was true i i didn't i couldn't hear it i had to learn it the hard way um i'll have to think more about what the worst advice i've yeah that's okay now um what about dinner you can pick any designer past or present who would you have dinner with uh yves sauron it's a pretty good one yeah for sure i've always always followed him and love every documentary yeah and just everything everything obsessed yeah uh what would you say your superpowers are i'm extremely resourceful um i just figure things out and i've been like that since i was a child um i my parents were very like i'll say hands off parenting yeah so you got resourceful um I got resourceful you mentioned that your dad was entrepreneurial your sister was there something that they did what's what's a how do you get uh entrepreneurial kids asking for a friend yeah well my father my father he imported the first espresso machine to Canada in 1954 whoa and really helped to build coffee culture Yes.

46:45My father is Italian from Italy and brought, yeah, he, he, he brought the first espresso machine to open a restaurant, but then he ended up in the future importing and distributing restaurant equipment, mostly espresso machine. But he really was like educating people about espresso and cappuccino. Like when I was little, I had to work in trade shows and people would be like, what, what is that you're making? And I'd be like, I would say, oh, it's a cappuccino. And they'd say, what is that? did you drink a hell of a lot of coffee when you were a child oh my god I did you know we used to make espresso granita in my father's office which is like a slushy kind of made just pure espresso and sugar and I just used to like just pop those all day I know I think back to how much co-cola I drank when I was like a child it was amazing something I'd never give my children um what's guilty pleasure that you can admit to uh guilty pleasure um um guilty pleasure I mean I like going out you know I like I don't know if that's a guilty pleasure but sometimes is it I don't know I mean if you feel guilty about it I guess I don't feel guilty about it but I think you know sometimes I if there's something I'll I have like the extreme FOMO.

48:07If there's something fun going on, I like feel like I need to go. That's amazing. One piece of lingerie that every woman should invest in. I think a beautiful black lace bra should be in everyone's repertoire because I think, I know you all have t-shirt bras covered already. So, you know, I think having something that even need showing like I think I think we're obsessed with this idea that everything has to disappear and be seamless all the time and I don't know where that came from um but I think it's sometimes nice to incorporate the texture of lace or the color of black through a white t-shirt I think it looks cool and yeah there yep I see you this is yours um all right last question um so tell me about someone that you're professionally jealous of I was thinking a lot about this um you know I think on the fashion side right now I would say Jack Mace um a little bit because I feel like wow this is an amazing brand that it feels like came up so quickly and is getting so much support from the industry and just scaling quickly and you know I think that's that that was the first thing that came to my mind um obviously like skims on some level because again like the volume of that how that big that business is it's staggering and I'm a bit envious of it um those were two and then I also have this like fantasy of creating something that would just be one product like liquid death you know like I'm like liquid death those yeah bastards I know genius I'm looking forward to seeing what other products Flirtamail can go into.

49:58There's so many. I mean, I know you need to focus, but yeah. Well, we just launched a toy. So that was new. We just launched that last month. Great. Yeah. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much. Thank you. I can't believe all my questions that I didn't get to ask, but you know, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on.

50:26Thank you.