Ep.12 / Ana Andjelic Shares The Secrets Behind the World’s Most Desirable Brands

0:04I'm Natasha Jakoboski and this is my podcast Professional Jealousy where I talk to people I'm impressed by and yes, just a little bit envious of. I'm hoping that you two will enjoy hearing about all their enviable achievements that we can all learn from and be aspired by. So today I am talking to Anna Angelic, a global brand executive, author of Hitmakers, How Brands Influence Culture and the Business of Aspiration. She's been recognized three times by Forbes for her influential CMO work. I first found out about her from her writing with the sociology of business, a global weekly newsletter about how to connect brand and business through culture, listed as one of the top 20 business publications on Substack.

1:00It's definitely a newsletter that I look forward to reading regularly. She's earned a doctorate in sociology and is widely read she's a writer a speaker an advisor um and actually i think she's truly achieved kind of guru status within her field so super happy um hello anna hi thanks for having me and uh you know i'm not wearing makeup so i think that's kind of like counterpoint to everything you said uh i think you look like a guru um i'm i'm so thankful for to meet you number one uh for agreeing to be a guest we're both strategists uh generally in new york i know you're in miami right now but um with so many people in common i'm actually kind of amazed that we've never met before um i've been a fan for ages um you're just you know so inspirational very slash slash you know you're a c-suite client roles author substat writer as i said general kind of culture business guru um i am wondering how do you introduce yourself when asked what you do at a party like how do you explain what you do well I say that I'm a brand executive writer I don't I don't mention doctor of sociology that I just you know like I don't mention that and I sometimes say a brand expert brand building expert brand management expert Interesting.

2:38That sounds very low-key. I mean, and your expertise is really within culture, luxury fashion, or do you not define it that way? I mean, it is specialized in fashion, luxury, and lifestyle industries. But honestly, these days it's not even because my clients are not in those industries right now. They're outside. But it's also the learnings from those industries are applicable outside of those fields because categories spill over and learnings from categories and behaviors and business and brand building strategies and approaches are applicable across just because in the business world and in the culture, there is no strong delineation anymore.

3:43Yeah. We consume everything together and the business models are now flat. The business world is now flat and the businesses across categories use the same business models and approach. I'm assuming you have a lot of, you know, non-fashion luxury, like CPG wanting to build aspiration and culture influence. Absolutely. Not just CPG, automotive and finance and so on. Yeah. Everything. Travel, hospitality, yeah. Yeah. So you're from Serbia. I'm just curious, how did you end up coming to the States? Yeah, I'm from Belgrade. And I came to New York to do first my master's and then my PhD. And so I would love, I mean, I would love actually to have some dramatic story, but it was just like continuing education.

4:39Okay, that's pretty good. I know, that's like, I mean, like, again, I take that back. I wouldn't laugh because that's like no drama. But, you know, it's, yeah. And then you stayed. So how long have you been in the States for? 24 years. Next year is going to be 25. It's since 2001. Yeah, same with me. Oh, wow. Well, there you go. What's your story? What brought you here first? first? I mean, I was, I came on a whim. One of my best friends from growing up got a job here and she had an apartment with that job that had two bedrooms and she was just like, come out, get a job and you can live with me.

5:29And so that's what I did. I came out and I interviewed, I basically begged people for interviews. I was so young. I had no experience. And so I didn't think it was going to work out at all. But I came out for a week. I talked to lots of agencies and someone gave me a job and I moved four weeks later. That's fascinating. I had no idea what I wanted to do when I, you know, I was like, I was doing masters. You know, I mean, there was always a common thread. I was always interested in brands. I did master's in media studies and then PhD in sociology, sociology of innovation, how innovation spreads in society, how organizations innovate, how they organize around innovation, can innovation be organized?

6:21So it's kind of like always there was connecting the dots, there was a common thread, but you always knew you were always a strategist, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. I know. Well, and actually, you know, I thought I was going to do a PhD, but then after my master's, I was just like, oh, my God, this is just too much. I just realized I didn't, you know, I was good at exams, but not necessarily really into the work. I just couldn't really think of anything else and so fell into advertising. How did you go? So how did you go from your doctorate to marketing? because you started on the marketing agency side.

7:05I was at HQA first and then Razorfish because I had to do field studies. And then I called Lars Basthorn, who was there, I think for three months straight every day. And until he picked up the phone and he was like, fine, like, come meet me, you know. And then I just got interested. and that was my field study and then I went to razorfish for two years and I was like oh my god this is so much more fun you know and but I had to finish phd so I did that and then I went back to you know when I got my phd I went back to huge and was there and then drug a five and then after that I focused on fashion luxury lifestyle so I was at create the group spring studios and then And I was at Havas Lux Hub for a while.

8:01I had a global role there. And then I went brand side. Amazing. And so it feels like you really did kind of, you went from digital, marketing, and you kind of honed your way into what you found what you were interested in. So fashion, luxury, culture. I always knew what I was interested in. There was never any doubt. and I always want, like the reason I did PhD was I always wanted to set myself for life. Because you know how, like if you're lucky, all of us know what a North Star is and my North Star is freedom. So having the most options available to me at all possible times.

8:49So having options open is what's important. and I wanted to have, if I want to go teach tomorrow, if the world collapses and there are no jobs, I can go and teach, you know, God forbid, but, you know, it's an option. So that's, I always wanted to, when sort of new technologies like YouTube, ah, you know, 20 years ago, so that's where I went, you know, wherever is new, that's where I go. And then when I wanted to learn more about traditional creativity and planning and so on. That was, Droga 5 was the place to be, you know. And then I was very interested in brands that are most culturally influential, which are fashion brands, luxury brands, that everyone, that shape culture.

9:42So that's where I went. And then I wanted to actually not just write decks, but execute. So that you have to be on brand side to really do that. but then also like sometimes you kind of get tired of that so then you take a time out and you go and work with different clients and then you know like so in that sense it's it's now very popular to have non-linear career but I've always been doing that in in a way and you really need to have you to follow your own path for that yeah so I love how the progression and it seems I love that you're driven by freedom. I think that's potentially related to being an immigrant and coming in and, you know, freedom is your North Star.

10:30You think it's shaped your life the way you want it to be. What's your North Star? You know what? I, honestly, I am very different from you in that I think I've always been trying to figure out what my own North Star is. That's probably one of my... People are like that. A lot of people say that, which I'm super surprised. I know, I know. I always talk to people that I naturally know, because for some people it's love. For some people it's, I don't know, education or giving or doing good. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's something that's always troubled me. My husband has a North Star. He's more like you, where he's like, here's these goals.

11:11He knows what he's interested in. He keeps working and it drives him and he's clear. whereas I I mean in all seriousness I feel like yeah I've always wondered what am I doing what am I doing and it's got me places and I think it's you know it's part character it's I don't know it's worked for me but I definitely feel like oh my god what I should have a North Star I remember I worked with Simon Sinek when he was like 20 when we were both 20 and uh you know anytime I look at the kind of the why stuff I'm like yeah I don't have a why do you have a why is that your North Star that's my why yeah I mean that's the bottom of it all why am I doing this is to have the biggest number of options available at I'm a horrible opportunist and in order to do that you need to have a number of options so yeah I think um yeah I think what's been interesting part of the reason I'm doing this podcast is because I don't have a why I just like finding out an interesting new it's a new thing to do and I've been talking to lots of people and some people are just like you driven goals opportunistic like find their way and focus and other people's uh do in another way and i think it's super interesting um yeah what advice it's fine either way you just need to be honest with yourself yeah totally yeah um what advice would you have for people looking to have a good conscious opportunistic i mean it's very brave to keep moving and keep going like what advice would you have for people that are not like you again it you need to be honest with yourself about who you are and what's important to you and even if that's not how everyone else is doing things yeah yeah super interesting um did you find it hard to go from agency side to client side um i read that you were chief brand officer with rebecca minkoff who i interviewed uh recently as part of the podcast yeah she's the best i did i mean it was not hard it was just different so it definitely was adjustment period it was just different very different so in what way oh you wake up one day and you know exactly how to do the job it's just going to take a minute to kind of understand how those processes work but it's completely doable so if you're if that's something you're interested in just to accept that there is going to be a learning period and that's it.

14:09What was... I enjoy it more. I enjoy it more. I would never go back to an agency. What do you enjoy more? Being brand side. Yeah. Why? Ah, why do I enjoy it? Because you actually are in charge of execution. You're making things happen. You're in the real world. Your actions have immediate consequences. you set the vision, the North Star, and you organize people to deliver on that vision. You operate with real budgets and you invest those real budgets in real actions that have impact in the real world. Yeah, yes, and more tangible. Right, and you don't... Best ideas don't win at any point of time.

14:53The most viable, feasible ideas win. and the ideas that are the best in reality, which doesn't mean they're intellectually the best, that are most creative, or like it's reality is going to tell you what the idea is the best. And reality means the budget, the timeline, the moment and so on, the context, internal dynamics, the number of actors, which is way more fulfilling operating in reality than who is the smartest. this is not you know a school or economic or academic exercise so way more yeah more skin in the game more responsibility like seeing an idea actually yield results and there is also that test and learn aspect yeah no so interesting and then putting the right team together the photographer is the model you know and then you know and beyond that yeah I love um I mean we'll talk about some of the uh kind of ideas that you've got in your newsletter in your books um but one of the things that uh I think is quite interesting and and I think you know you've you've kind of talked about it with things like Banana Republic is the idea of building worlds um and And really, you know, as a strategist, it's very easy to say what a brand is.

16:25But actually, you know, how a brand behaves, the world, the kind of relationships, the imagery. Can you talk to me about how you think about building a good brand? What is, how does a good brand kind of come to life? First, you need to understand the intention. Why did someone create that brand? Why do they think that the world needs that brand? Why did they want to create that brand? So what is the intention behind Banana Republic? What is the intention behind Esprit? And, you know, sometimes people just want to create a brand because they want to make money. But that's okay, because then you can invent a story.

17:08And usually brands, not usually, always brands are invented stories, you know. And, like, look at Ralph Lauren. invented Eastern European aristocracy, wild west and so on and that makes it even more compelling you know so the best stories are invented stories, all stories are invented stories but the more imaginative invention is the more compelling the story so you go there to that that intention and then you kind of dimensionalize it, you create a lore and a myth around it and you say who where what when who are the characters what is the world around it what who lives there what do they wear where do they go what do they you know like what's what is what are the the some kind of signposts of of the you know so you start visualizing all of that and then it's kind of like easier from there once you have that backbone and that that that sort of narrative that is going to organize all the cultural products you're going to make there and the cultural products are your products that you're creating not just fashion products it can be cpg it can be literally anything your product pyramid but there is also going to be where you're going to collaborate with what is the merch there what are the events what are the experience what are your brand codes what is your color palette what are your prints and patterns what are your sort of uh when you think about monograms what is your logo and then you also go into what is your retail experience what the what what creators you're going to work with what influencers and then you go also the events and so on what is entertaining the content the tone of voice so you kind of like operationalize productize that emotion productize that world and then you build a cultural program how do you connect all of that yeah and then you do media amplification which is you put media against all those different contexts where you see that those products, see which context those products were successfully, amplify that.

19:12And in some, they're maybe not gonna do so well. You kill those. And then you just roll that out, build a calendar, connect it with your commercial calendar, with your merchandising calendar, with your marketing calendar. So everyone knows what's happening. Everyone works towards the same financial results. and you just monitor how all of that is going and you improve as you go. So which brands do you think do this well? Oh, a ton of brands are doing this well. I mean, I wouldn't say actually a ton, but like, for example, I think Jonathan Anderson is insanely commercial but insanely creative at the same time.

19:56Jacques Jemus is insanely commercial and creative at the same time. I do think that brands like Adidas put their stuff together. For example, in terms of influencing culture after Yeezy, Deba, calling like a little bit like shaky territory, they sort of like figured out how to go back on their collaboration train and start creating their campaigns are amazing again, their collaborations are amazing again. For a big company like that, that's a plus and Nike should take notes there. So that's a good example. and I do think that despite what you say about On, they're still kind of like poking here and there, you know, for a small brand, for a brand that's been around for what, 15 years, 10 years, you know, they're not doing so badly.

20:44When you look at McDonald's, you know, their collaboration with Travis Scott, like, you know, respect there, like for a brand that's fast food, you know, they're around. You know, so there are examples when you can say, you know you guys get it you're like not bad yeah talk to me about your recent book and the kind of key ideas in that what should people be taking away well that like it's i just explained in a way that cultural products actually replace the traditional brand marketing that cultural product that cultural programming is the new brand strategy and the products partnerships cultural events correct it's basically that the arsenal of 10 cultural products is what's on disposal to all brands but it's actually that cultural narrative that is different than brand narrative that is actually culturally how brands influence culture what is the story that they are entering the dialogue with culture that is what matters and then how that narrative unifies all those products in that program and is amplified through media that's what the book is about and how some of those products are going to become hits and then what those hits are really depends more on a zeitgeist than on the individual choice i'll give an example like for example look at la bubo.

22:21Stylists knew a year before anyone else that there is this new thing and those stylists gave it to Rihanna and David Beckham and so on. If those celebrities didn't wear it, those hordes of fans wouldn't even see it. It wouldn't have exploded. So that is kind of created the right cultural mood. Yeah. And it's not about hiring the celebrity because if people did not already there be economic situation, oh, I can't afford this Dior bag, but I can't afford this thing that hangs off Dior bag. If there was not already a situation where people were buying Legos for adults, already buying plush creatures, they wouldn't have even registered that.

23:03There was already not a situation where keychains hanging off bags were not present for previous five years that would not be a cool thing to do so you have to look at those already fertile contexts where labubus came in in order celebrities just amplify that yeah yeah yeah they're not coming up for these trends marketing and then you look at the same thing with with with luevo tomato it was like oh that guy who was like oh this this tomato reminds me of luevo no something was already in in the air the year before there was tomato summer and people were already primed for that color and so on two days later jonathan anderson said from meme to reality he can't make bag in two days he fixed a year to make a bag something was already in the air in culture inside guys so that's why brands need to it's not trend set yeah it's not how do you find those How do you find those things bubbling up?

24:03Well, you need to really understand what people are talking about, economic, cultural, and social mood. Because you need to understand, it's like forest fire. How do you do research or how do you find those things? It's a combination really of having your right customer personas, demographic, psychographic, cultural personas. It's understanding what are people talking about on TikTok, that qualitative research. It's really being part of that culture. So yeah, it is research, but it is also being present in culture. And it's not that traditional research, all the research came in. It's economically understanding where you are, socially understanding where people are.

24:51How are they reacting? Oh, is Gen Z having sex or not having sex? For example, they are maybe having less performing sex, but there is performative aspect of posting. So if you're Victoria's Secret, are you going to have very sexy content? Because they are posting photos of themselves being sexy without even having sex, you know? So you can look at that. And then culturally, what does that mean? In a sense, oh, how is OnlyFans doing and what does that mean? how do you participate in that environment who do you who do you hire as great and so on it's all there yeah and yeah you just have to your marketing department to look at it like that yeah figure out what your brand is about and then look for the signals that are related um yeah so interesting what about uh what do brands get wrong most when they try and do this Because it's amazing when you see how many more partnerships or crazy products people are thinking about.

26:02What are the main things that brands are doing wrong? Doing the same thing that worked in the past, thinking that it's going to work in the future. The definition of madness.

26:18And also doing what everyone else is doing. how are you thinking about ai and how that's going to impact marketing branding you know research insights i don't know marketing it's a whole new episode honestly how much time do you have i think we are like too much okay how do you think i mean i agree it's a it's a massive thing and it's changing so fast I mean yeah I mean I think it's interesting just thinking about even just practically like the tools um the tools and the ability to get more done is interesting on a very practical sense but yeah I mean yeah maybe you're right maybe it is too much too much too much to go into now i meant to be writing a speech uh for october in in tokyo on the so maybe i'll reach back out to you and ask you yeah let's have a chat in october you do all this research and i'll do all my research and then i know warm conversation as a as a guru someone i'm not a guru come on um who do you i mean where do you where do you stay tapped in like what what do you look out for are there any writers sub stacks or uh people that you look to any any publications like how do you keep tapped into culture i mean i just read everything i i mean i find a lot of of information on tiktok on instagram but also financial times economist

28:05Twitter's Substack feed. It's not very intentional. It's just, you know, like random stuff where, you know, when we do other things, it just pops up and it just bubbles and talking to people also. What everyone else is sort of doing. The thing is that it's not about like you can read a lot of information. The more important thing is if you know how to think so you can really connect things and you can really in that mass of information you can say this is important this matters yeah i think i mean obviously you've been very good at that taking connecting dots um you know a strat i mean that's i feel like that's what a good strategist does what about the growing of your newsletter how have you how have you done that because that uh i feel like has obviously uh grown a lot and was that conscious or was it just putting writing and seeing what happens like how did you build that kind of brand i've been doing that for a really long time yeah free sub stack yeah you've been putting out content for a long time everything it's literally because I have academic training and that's my creative outlet from those days so we're talking back to 2008 I mean even before but the 2008 in the summer of 2008 so that's what 17 years ago when I started my blog on type pad which was called I love marketing but love was scratched so and for 17 years I've been at it so there is there are no shortcuts there is no such thing as a you know quick win and my audience has changed over time I mean some of my audiences haven't been born then i mean probably yeah but or have been in elementary school or kindergarten or whatnot but the thing is it's like you just need to keep it that's number one but i've never thought about oh this is my grand scheme because in 20 years i'm gonna have a sub stack and so on it's a creative outlet you need to be passionate about what you do you need to be interested about what you do.

30:45You need to say, oh, I'm really, right now, I'm like, I'm really thinking like, oh, the time, at the time when Spotify really took hold, the sales of vinyl records jumped because no artificial ingredients added. So the same thing with AI, now all of a sudden you have a rise in niche magazines people want to meet in person you have real things like the jonathan and that's not a revolution it's not but i just want to like put all of that in paper that's gonna be good like little post and someone can maybe use it when they go into a meeting or something like that so you know what i mean it's not a big deal it's not revolutionary idea but if i put it on paper it's something i'm interested in to look into really quickly.

31:36Some other things I'm really interested. Oh, what should Victoria's Secret do next? What is the strategy of cultural reprogramming? Well, you know, what can you do to kind of like, oh, Gen Z is having less sex. If you're built on sex, if it's not about performance, but performativity, that's a deep dive. I'll have to spend time on it, but I'm really into it. Why am I doing it? There is no particular reason aside of me being really interested in it, professionally, so on. So you see, that's sort of, you need to have that in you. And you know that at some point it is going to be useful because that's what you do.

32:19Any other things that you see on the horizon or things that you're starting to get interested in? Honey, you'll have to pay me for that.

32:30I got it. I got it um all right what about uh I feel like uh what's interesting seeing your progression and you know I think in terms of you know what you want you've got your North Star um you're very confident uh you're very driven how has that changed over time uh I mean I presume that that your confidence has grown over time um like is that true or have you've always been the same way like what sort of uh you know do would you change anything do you have any advice for your younger self I mean have you felt like as you get older it just gets more easy and confident I mean tell me about how you personally have have kind of grown over this time Well first even if I had advice for my younger self my younger self wouldn't have listened that's number one and I always had confidence and I just now know more so I think I'm just more wise which gives me more pause so I'm not as impulsive but again no regrets and if I was not so confident I would probably not be so also bold and brave and risk-taking because what I don't know cannot derail me so here we are yeah it's amazing well what about goals for the future near long term like what are you thinking just doing great work just doing great work and more of the great work and bigger and better and greater and yeah.

34:25What is greater? Bigger brands? More famous? What is... All of that. It's not just about fame. If the work is great, it's going to be recognized. And it's just bigger scale, more massive, bigger budgets, and just bigger scale of work bigger scopes bigger impact I just want to do massive massive projects that are amazing that are going to be recognized as groundbreaking that's what I want to do I mean that's fair enough that sounds pretty good and are there any brands that you wish you could do that for like Victoria's Secret yeah I would love to do that would love love love to turn that brand around love yeah i feel like you often work on inflection point was that you often work on inflection point yes i love to do that yes i love to make brands like i loved what we did a banana because it had such tangible business results and that's nothing more rewarding than that so i would love to do that in a giant scale yeah so victoria's secret anything else any other tiffany is like i would love to do something with tiffany but victoria's secret is on my list top of the list yeah i must admit victoria's secret was it's probably on my list too um i remember talking to them a few few years ago getting flown down to their offices um but they definitely weren't ready to to to to do anything when we spoke to them but maybe now they're definitely flailing um anyone else i mean there's so many brands you know there's so many brands doing you know great things so they can do greater things so you know it's more like brands come you know so when they come they it is the best thing i don't pitch brands brands come and you know then we can do the best things together when they come yeah That's a good position to be in.

36:32And are you working, do you have like, I saw that you were working as CMO of Esprit. Is that like a day job or that's consulting? Esprit is gone. Bank doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. I mean, do you tend to come in as an advisor or you work full time and then out? Both. Both. Optionality, remember. Yeah, freedom. Sometimes it's best to come in and be full-time and do a big, big, big turnaround. And sometimes it's advisory role. And sometimes advisory role and consulting role becomes full-time. Tell me one of your guilty pleasures. I don't have any. No guilt, no regrets. No regrets. No regrets. Completely ownable.

37:25All pleasures are ownable. All pleasures are fair. Fair game. Okay. Top three fashion or luxury brands that not about branding or marketing strategy, just that you think are craveable that you would like to buy or buy. that I like to buy? I think I'm less about like mega luxury brands and more, I think The Row, I would love something from The Row. And what else? I was looking at some denim brand. I can't remember the name. So give me a sec. What about top three? I don't know, maybe Chanel, like a watch or something. Yeah. Okay. What about most overrated fashion or luxury brands? The what? most overrated oh there is no such thing just different of course there is no of course there is but come on I'm like let's just pretend yeah okay good uh what about uh do you do you have mentors do you have people you go to for advice I've never really had mentors so I'm always kind of curious if everyone has them I mean no but I think I have one and one from huge and then And, you know, not always, but because I don't listen to anyone.

38:51But, like, she really gets to me and I listen to her, Nicole Victor. Okay. Interesting. I've got a feeling this is you're going to say no, but best career advice, worst career advice that you've ever had? Like, honestly, what is the worst career advice? Oh, worst career advice is probably when people say, oh, no, you need to stay at the job for, like, at least two years or something like that. And I realized that like, like modern brands, they don't even care. And I was literally sitting in Mansoor Gabriel and the founders, they were like, oh, like millennials don't even stay there. And that's when I realized like that doesn't matter.

39:35And what's the best career advice? I don't even know. Okay. What do you think your superpowers are? What's helped you be successful? Left brain, right brain both. and then both analytical creative thinking and then probably just that insane risk-taking and boldness and crazy decisiveness. Yeah. What does success look like for you? It's always about business success. It's great when you get recognition and fame and press and cultural influence is important number two number one business because we are in business um and no no personal what i mean what are some more non-business do you have those or it's all business all the time oh no of course there is like a sense of achievement and so on but that's like personal like like I get that from other things when you were when you were like you get that I mean don't you get that like on a personal level when I'm when you work it's you work for unless you have your own brand you always work for a brand I don't know how do you think about that um again as someone with no no no star why it's always a little random but i guess you know personal success is also about feeling good about what you've achieved relationships people beyond business i guess uh yeah but isn't it dangerous to equate that with your work no I'm not yeah no I'm talking it outside of work beyond beyond uh beyond work what is success oh in private life of course I mean but that's kind of like I didn't okay so yeah of course it's being fulfilled having fulfilling relationships being loved like loving someone feeling loved by someone having friends being having meaningful relationships having the sort of sense of fulfillment in your life being content if not happy being happy is absolutely being sort of where you feel you want to be in your life that's that's the most important thing to sort of being having a sense that you are exactly where you want to be in your life absolutely but i kind of want to separate that from from work because you need to have that regardless yeah you have to have that from within external stuff is not going to give you that you need to work within yourself on that yeah yeah uh anything that you're trying to get better at oh every day i mean again on that internal things like being better with people being better with yourself more forgiving towards yourself more loving more forgiving with others i mean that's We are all work in progress until the day we die.

42:55All right. So last question.

43:00I'm, yeah, interested in what you're going to say. So tell me someone or something that you're professionally jealous of. Honestly, I had that before. And then, like, I don't know, very, very, very, very early in my career, just maybe at the beginning. And I was like, oh, I want to be like, you know, this girl. oh, she studies media studies or something like that. And next thing I know, she's, I don't know, doing PR in Belgrade or something like that. And I'm like, okay, that's it. I'm not doing that anymore. So no. No one. No one, no thing. No, no. Again, everyone has their own path. And, you know, you need to remind yourself, like, you never know.

43:44Like, their life is, you know, everyone has their life, and you never know what's going on. and, you know, just, like, be nice to people. I think that's a lovely way to end. Amazing. And I'm so thankful. I'm hoping we get to hang out. Yeah, same. Same. Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, thank you and let's hang out. That's my main thought. I think we're quite opposite in good ways. I think it's going to work. All right. Thanks so much for listening, watching. please do take a look at some of the other episodes that we've done too you can find more on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, professionaljealousy.com get in touch if you have any questions feedback or importantly people that you think should be on professional jealousy quick thank you to everyone that's helped Shimmy, Unreasonable Studios, Anomaly you can follow me Natasha Jakubowski on LinkedIn or professionaljealousy.com or on Instagram.

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