Redefining Energy: How WIP is Building the "Zyn of Caffeine" with Richard Mumby

0:00Natasha Jakubowski:Coming up in this episode of Professional Jealousy. I think that I'm probably either a dream or nightmare client. And he goes, fuck yeah. And like walked out, he like levitated as he walked out the door and I was like, well, I guess I know what I'm doing next. You know, like on the one hand, I can just sort of eviscerate myself. Everyone needs to feel ownership over their professional endeavor. I think regardless of the age, you know whether you really know yourself or if you're just bullshitting yourself.

0:34Natasha Jakubowski:Hi, I'm Natasha Jakubowski, Chief Innovation Officer at Anomaly, a global marketing agency in New York. And this is my podcast, Professional Jealousy, where I'm lucky enough to talk to founders, business leaders and creatives that I'm impressed by. And yes, just a little bit jealous of. So today I'm talking with Richard Mumby. We'll be chatting about his career working at DTC pioneers like Gilts and Bonobos, what he learned at Juul, and how he actually founded a new type of energy pouch company. Hello, Richard. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. For anyone that hasn't heard of WIP, what is the elevator pitch?

1:20Well, the good news is it's super simple. We have clean, natural caffeine in a pouch that is equivalent to a coffee or an energy drink in a simple to use format.

1:33Natasha Jakubowski:So we sell in all sorts of packages, but it's a small, discreet, plant-based pouch. Pop in your mouth, enjoy the ride and get the fuel to do the things in your day or maybe a couple late nights as well. I mean I'm impressed by the uh product uh the product usage and uh demo that's uh pretty slick um it is a super interesting idea which is I've been working on uh for the past couple of months on Alani Nu and uh energy is obviously massive um but this is a new form it's definitely you know I don't know, tucking it or, you know, being inspired by the pouch or the kind of zin format. Can you talk about that kind of aha moment?

2:25Natasha Jakubowski:Like, how did you how did this come about? Yeah, I mean, the good news is, is that from like a business standpoint, is that people love caffeine and they love energy. You know, 85 percent of Americans consume caffeine every day. it's a part of daily routines and rituals. And yet people wish that there was something better about it. You know, the core unmet needs are the people would like a more trustworthy, cleaner, better for you, some sort of improvement on the quality of the caffeine they consume. People want more convenience and then people want cheaper options. So those are sort of huge category and some unmet needs.

3:12And at the same time, there's been this wave of adoption that I'm sure folks know a lot about, where in another category, in nicotine, consumers have, there's been a generational shift in how people are consuming it with Zin and other pouches. And so the business actually originated before I joined, two and a half years before, from a team of folks who owned a company called TJP, which is the world's best manufacturer of pouches, but saw that there was transferability into a different category.

3:47Natasha Jakubowski:They spent two years on the formulation and tons of money. And I joined to really launch it. And what I really was inspired by was not just the scale of opportunity and not just even that we make a really good product, but that we could fundamentally you know um solve consumer needs better than what has you know has been on the market before yeah so a better solve i drinking it isn't convenient all the time or like what really yeah talk to me about this need so the convenience thing it is a funny topic right yeah for something that people consume every day i still have a coffee every morning my my husband has a you a bit of our routine.

4:39He wakes up earlier. He brews a cup of a pot of coffee. And I love that. But most of us consume caffeine through a liquid. Yet the convenience issue has a range of frustrations for a sundry product. We hear that athletes don't like drinking liquids and certainly don't like carbonation before they work out or run. That sloshing around or the bloating that happens from the carbonation in focus groups endless focus groups with construction workers bring a coffee or a drink onto a job site they are worried about spills and dust and debris getting in their drink a very like all that is a common thing then there's a biological issue that with liquids and a stimulant yeah you have to go to the bathroom and we hear female runners we hear esport athletes we hear long-haul truckers that biological issue is a big a big frustration

5:41Natasha Jakubowski:okay i i buy that i mean it's interesting um going the kind of category creation route and the behavior change versus i mean did you i mean i guess you you you've happened on an amazing technology and product but like pouches versus something like a gummy or trendy kind of thing sure there have been i think there have been attempts at different um different ways to consume caffeine um there is a helpful parallel in you know another large consumer category of consumer adoption. So in nicotine, people have adopted it because the product works. There's always efficacy and delight. And people in that category, there's a high efficacy quotient and people really enjoy it.

6:40And I think that with alternatives in caffeine, there's been sort of a range of outcomes on whether it works well from the caffeine, sort of the outcome that you want from it. And there's a range of outcomes of whether people really enjoy doing it or not. I mean, I have women right now. I have our blue raspberry in, and I got to tell you, it's like a little, it's a hidden treat that I get to have while I'm talking to you. And so we're really able to do that. I think that this is a massive shift that's happening in the way people consume. But as you said, product is king. It isn't just that we're a pouch.

7:22We happen to make a very good one. We happen to have a distinct formulation that has the ability to have enough caffeine that you can feel the experience of it. And also we mask the bitterness of caffeine, which is really hard to do, in a way that it tastes great. And so if, you know, this is all, I tell people like we're not a marketing company we're not a sales company we're not you know we're not a finance company we are a product company we make caffeine and energy pouches and we've

7:54Natasha Jakubowski:got to be exceptional at that so everything else is in support of that yeah um do you I mean you talked about lots of focus groups how did you how did you you know gauge whether this was niche or a big enough opportunity to go all in because you are all in on WIP at the moment. Yeah, we are. I am. We are. So before I joined, there was a pilot launch under a different banner called LF Go. And that was a good way to gauge product market fit. In the four months that existed before I joined, it was online only. It was really clear there was not just an openness, but an acceptance from consumers. So not just trial, but enough repeat that you could see that there was something there.

8:46Natasha Jakubowski:And that was through just DTC or how did... And on Amazon. And on Amazon, okay.

8:56But then, you know, that was enough for me to come aboard. So I took the CEO role in October of 2024. And it was clear that we had a big opportunity. The next step was to build the brand and to build sort of the go-to market for this. And we're fortunate to be able to have resources to make big investments in understanding the consumer and brought this extraordinary head of consumer insights in to work with us. Her name's Krista Greenberg. She ran insights in relevant other businesses before. She was at Red Bull for many years. an extraordinarily talented insights leader. And so we did foundational work, you know, broad scale consumer insight studies and surveys and focus groups and in-home use tests, comparative tests, focus groups, and really understood sort of who would be open to it.

9:53What needs do we fill? How do we hang our hat from a product standpoint? But then how do we build a brand to resonate with them as well and that's so i'm interested so you did move from

10:04Natasha Jakubowski:the lfgo to whip talk about that evolution what was that aiming to uh bring to life like what what was behind that kind of branding change early on yeah i mean we really had like the the lfgo was really a um a pilot test to make sure that there was you know there was a product market yeah so So we did that. We then took a breather and and then assembled a full business plan for broad commercialization. So WIP has, you know, a bounty of choice of consumers. This is this product can fit into, you know, a wide range of nearly every American's life. and it was breathtaking to see the response that who like the openness to the product category and how we could fit those needs not just in the U.S.

10:58but internationally as well so you know we we really had to take a moment to build the brand to build the sales marketing strategy our distribution plans and and then and we're ready ready to go from there you know each inflection point is actually not just confirmed what we have before us it's actually expanded the opportunity which

11:21Natasha Jakubowski:is really exciting for us interesting so you talked a little bit about athletes i can see you know that that it feels like a very easy move from things like goo and non-drinks construction workers talk talk to me about your your core kind of consumer segments so we can see we're in more than 5 ,000 doors, you know, seven months in, we're expanding rapidly. We're online, we're on our website, whip.com, we're on Amazon, we're on GoPuff, we're on Walmart.com. We have enough distribution, you know, just seven months in that we can see who's using the product. The good news is when people try it, they buy it and they buy it again.

12:07And it's remarkably diverse. So we index really high around hospitals, around college campuses, around travel centers and truck stops. Our best affiliate on TikTok is a female athlete. And so we really aren't a niche business that needs to figure out where to expand into. We see like a bounty of choice. And so that's really, you know, at this stage of the game, we're really excited by the reception.

12:41Natasha Jakubowski:Yeah. Energy and getting shit done. Yeah. I mean, like everyone, people keep talking about, you know, accessing the 25th hour. And, you know, maybe I should have heard the expression earlier, but it's like this continual refrain. Some people need, you know, to get up some extra pep on their step in the morning. people grind through their day whether they're at it at their desk or on a job site they squeeze in workouts you know hopefully in the world we live in people are finding ways to have fun even at night and you know this product can fit into that as well okay um yeah it's interesting i mean like you're so you are for everyone um your branding is from from an outsider it does look quite kind masculine in a way.

13:28Natasha Jakubowski:Maybe that's just because I've been working on Alani Nu, the exact polar opposite almost. But yeah, do you think it skews more male in terms of what you were aiming for in terms of the kind of visual identity? Well, I don't think that we intended that. And everyone can interpret it. I will say that on TikTok, our male-female purchasing is literally 50-50. Yeah, amazing. And so that's interesting. But, you know, I think that we wanted the brand to look, you know, regardless of gender, I think that our aspirational target of who we are building the brand around is somebody who leads an ambitious, full life.

14:18they work hard they work out hard they go out hard and they bring others along with them and so we really wanted it to feel that it was energy that it had some you know layer of cool to it that it was some badge some merit of like those who are audacious enough to pull off doing a lot and those of us who are sort of finding ways to make it through the days as well get to

14:47Natasha Jakubowski:appropriate into that as well yeah yeah i like that um and i feel like i need to give a shout out to uh my good friends george george studio maybe um and gurgis um tell me what was your brief to them to to work on the kind of brand and bringing it to life they were like i think that i'm i'm probably either a dream or nightmare client and i'll let you interview them next to just to to let them say what the verdict is. But, you know, we really wanted somebody that could move at a pace. We built what looks and feels like a global brand in record time, from everything from naming through visual identity to brand standards.

15:32And they were the best partners, both Dave and Andrew. And they'll forever be a part of the family and friends of mine now too. the brief was um yeah i'll tell you was i had this essence of the brand that was like a witch's cauldron that requires like a witch's cauldron and the time machine of the of the best eras of um of red bull gopro and supreme and if you could mash those together and have a baby of those brands on tiktok in a convenience store is like how i wanted the brand to come alive and so i think

16:17Natasha Jakubowski:they pulled it off amazing um what was the moment that you thought yeah i'm going all in on this so the chairman of the company is this remarkable guy david cinnamon who now was one of my favorite humans and closest friends. And so I met him over a zoom, you know, we met through one of these, one of these cameras and he told me about what, you know, what the product was and what their vision for it. It seems pretty interesting. And he, and he sent me a box of product. So a bunch of, a bunch of products. And I brought that, brought it out to the beach. Some friends of mine and I We're out in Fire Island.

17:02And so, you know, we're adult men in our 40s. And so there's something called tea there. And so we went for that, you know, an afternoon drink and everyone was like popping a pouch in their mouth on their way to tea. And without my encouragement, they just sort of naturally did. I was like, that's pretty good. And then there was like a 25 year old liquor delivery guy who brought some, brought a delivery over. And it was my turn to give him a tip. And somebody said oh give him one of those pouches and so i brought him a can and i was like you know there's there's no nicotine he knew what to do and popped open the can and put in a pouch he let it find its spot and he pondered it for like two or three seconds and he goes fuck yeah and like walked out he like levitated as he walked out the door and i was like well i guess i guess

17:54Natasha Jakubowski:they know what I'm doing next amazing um and this yeah I mean what what do you think I feel like the experience at Jewel must have been quite helpful for thinking about this kind of category like something new different form factor figuring out how to connect with people in a way that's you know, cool, but also functional. Like, talk to me, what did you, what's been most helpful from your past experience moving into this space? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, if I take like even one step further back, I've, I've worked, I've been fortunate. I worked at Bain and, but I've spent most of my career with high growth consumer brands.

18:42I was early at the guilt group and I was at Bonobos, I was at PAX and Juul. I think each of them had a different product or mode of distribution that really at its core, they were product businesses or there was something that solved a need really well. But they were allowed to tap into culture in order to connect with their consumers and to create a category through that. And so I think all of them allowed me to do that. I think that's, if I have like a sweet spot, it's sort of consumer businesses that have a great product, but the ability and the right to participate in culture. I think with Juul in particular, there's lots of lessons.

19:27I think the deep familiarity with the channels that we sell this product into is really helpful. And the scale of opportunity and with a product that has just like a fundamentally different and better proposition.

19:41Natasha Jakubowski:Yeah, I've seen your stickers in kind of bodega windows, which is, yeah, is one of those really effective, but presumably things that a lot of new brands wouldn't have thought of, which is super smart. How have you kind of thought about scaling? So you're already in quite a lot of distribution points. like what what's been your kind of launch or you know launch strategy so um yeah i mean certainly a lesson was don't you know we've scaled quickly but um at jewel we scaled even faster and so the the lesson here was really like was to understand what drives velocity at retail this is and what drives consumer behavior, both online and offline.

20:35We've got a great e-commerce business that's run really judiciously, that we have great repeat rates. We've got great customer engagement. We've got awesome affiliates, that whole world. But I think that what I'm lucky to have had experience in and learnings from and to apply here is how to do that in the retail world. And so we could actually be in far more retail doors at this point. But within the first six months, the thing that I most wanted to know was what drives velocity at retail. My biggest nightmare is for our product to sit at a distributor or to sit on a shelf. And so we haven't dumped product in distributors or, you know, goosed our revenue to try to make this more appealing from, you know, a top line standpoint.

21:26I like I always say it when I go and meet with any of our retail partners our business is going to be built on their shoulders we will only make money if they make money we like and and they will only make money if the consumers know who we are know what we are and enjoy using it so you so that is like the core of what we need to do um so thus far it's really been a really disciplined slow roll. I mean, quick in absolute terms, but slow given, you know, the opportunity that we have to get into doors and then to, I built out a great data team here that really understands the stuff. You know, I think when we build brands, there's a lot of, there's some sexier stuff to do than all of your in-store marketing, but those are, those are actually like our cheapest impressions.

22:16Those are our most material. Those are some of our most effective. So we've just put

22:19Natasha Jakubowski:a lot of time into that yeah i think it's i think it's the one of the pieces that a lot of founders with you know especially like whether it's candy or beverages or they really miss uh you know i'd underestimate the impact at retail like what would your advice be for any you know people starting out and thinking about that channel what what should they what should they be doing what do they what are the basics that that really set you up for success as a new brand i mean um it's a good question i mean i'll i'll give you my initial reaction you tell me whether you whether it's a good answer or not but you know i i always keep coming back to the product like yeah and on our product you're working with the george team we we worked really hard on our packaging for it to be clear you know who we were and what we were and then you extend that into your inner packs or your displays just um i think that that it i think that people may be inclined to to create beautiful things but not necessarily look through the eyes of the consumer through all of them and, or they work on their advertising as their manifestation of their brand.

23:43But we really, you know, our biggest manifestation of the brand is on our, on our product, on our packaging, but how we appear in retail and knowing who that consumer is, um, and what they, what they're, and also like how curious actually are they? Like, it's very easy to be, I tell us like, we can't be so self-centered. Nobody is nearly as interested in us as we are in ourselves. Um, so that's where, that's kind of what I would start with. I don't know if that's great advice, but then, then an understanding of where you appear in retail, you know, for us, we, we wanted to, we wanted to, um, I hate that word disrupt, but we wanted to like be distinct from other things that we would be around.

24:32Um, and think

24:33Natasha Jakubowski:we did a great job with that yeah any any uh mistakes or things that you wish uh you would have avoided like in the first yeah yeah i mean i guess it's been it's pretty quick so far but yeah any any big learnings any uh things that you wish you could have avoided just in any category oh I mean, yeah, in launching this brand, again, such a different kind of brand form factor. Yeah. I mean, like, listen, I like, yeah, join me, join me at bedtime. And as I'm trying to fall asleep, and I can give you a longer list. I'll give you the day's list. But I mean, I think

25:25I don't you know like on the one hand I can just sort of eviscerate myself on like what we could have done differently or better but I saw what's that that the gold medal medal olympic figure

25:38Natasha Jakubowski:skater what's her name that she just won Alyssa Liu yeah amazing the best and I saw her and she was asked a question like what would you tell your younger self you know to you know to do and she was like you got it like you know you're gonna be okay even with your mistakes and so that's such a shitty answer to give you but like i mean we we made we made fumbles of maybe like too big of some brand activations that we weren't quite ready for but um but we're in a good spot and so i'll i'll sort of be kind right now i do i i do think that you know i don't know disagree if you want but there's definitely i feel like to be an entrepreneur or to be more entrepreneurial um you kind of have to be pretty growth mindset so maybe it's a hard question like i mean like of two minds i mean like i don't know like we we have a team at the arnold right now and so we could have like done a photo shoot for some different assets to be there like great But we're going to have a great time and introduce the brand to a lot of people.

26:48Yeah. And so that would be good. So I can, I mean, the team can know that I can nitpick and fuss over something till, you know, the end of the days. But we're in a good spot. I'm clearly unwilling to, like, go there with you.