Discovering Kochi Sake with Simone Maynard and Taichiro Ogi

0:02The people of sake actually brought me into sake. Back in 1988, this place was actually in Ginza on the main drag. At first it was kind of soy sauce, it was miso. To the point where it actually changed my life. New Year's Day 1989. Not just sake as a beverage, but all the culture and history. Hi, this is Frank. Thanks for tuning into the show today. Before we get started with the episode, I have an announcement and a little bit of background information on the topics that we cover in today's episode. For the announcement, Sake on Air is going to be moving to a weekly show for the foreseeable future.

0:38What that means for you is there's just going to be a lot more sake on air. So I hope you stick around for the ride. In terms of background, our show today is all about Kochi Prefecture. Kochi Prefecture is on the small island of Shikoku, which is the fourth largest island of Japan. It's located on the Pacific coast, kind of squeezed in between the islands of Honshu and Kyushu. It's pretty hard to get to as you'll hear Simone and Taichiro Ogi and Sydney mention, but it's still a great place to visit. Sake culture in kochi has been an indelible part of life since the Edo period. The people who live there are known for their love of partying and for the traditional festivals that bring color to what is otherwise a relatively remote part of Japan.

1:21Kochi sake and kochi food go hand in hand. It's really hard to talk about kochi food without talking about kochi sake and it's really hard to talk about kochi sake without talking about Kochi food. The team gets into that and much more. And so without further ado, let's start the show. Welcome back and thank you for tuning into another episode of Sake on Air, the world's first podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, sake, shochu, and of course, awamori, which is made possible by the generous support of the Japan Sake and Shochu Makers Association. My name is Cindy and today we will be virtually visiting Koji Prefecture and I'm very excited because it's been on my list to go to for many years and this year finally I had a chance to join Simone Maynard, sake educator and sake samurai as she was visiting for a little research trip this September.

2:22Was it September, Simone? Yes. It sure was. It was, right? Hi, Simone. How are you? I'm great, Cindy. Great to see you on my screen. I wish I was traveling to another wonderful sake brewery or prefecture with you, but hopefully we can do that again soon. But yes, Kochi was amazing and so glad that we got to experience that together. But I'm well, thank you and I hope you are too. Same, it was an amazing trip as always and we weren't just the two of us. We had the pleasure of having Taichi Rougi, a tour operator in Chikoku which is where Kochi is located with us. He is a local and he was showing us all the ins and outs, great soccer spots and he also made sure that we got to and from the brewery safely and were able to have a few beverages while we were there so uh oki-san thank you so much for also joining us today hi my name is oki thank you for having me on this uh time it was quite nice uh trip in september i had quite a fun time so um yeah nice to see you this time nice to see you too i mean our listeners can't see us but um we're all excited to be back together and talking about our trip that we had which was rather short wasn't it we did three nights four nights in kochi we were three three full days i think three three and a half days yeah that's right i think the good the good thing about this little reunion um cindy is that oggy-san doesn't have to drive us around everywhere so you can just sit and chat yeah more relaxed because what we have to say as well i mean Maybe first we should go into a little bit of the geographics of where Koji prefecture actually is.

4:15And I don't know, Ogi-san, if you want to tell us a little bit about it as you live there and you are the local. Okay. Koji is located in the western part of Japan, kind of like its island, Shikoku Island. And Koji is the southern part of Shikoku Island. Yes. And may I maybe quickly add in here as we're looking at Shikoku. it's the smallest of Japan's islands and it's made up of four prefectures so we're looking at Koji Ehime, Kagawa and also Tokushima and with each they kind of have their own character yeah most people probably know Shikoku for the famous 88 temple pilgrimage so it's definitely worth coming to visit but Okisan like how far would it be from the major cities to get here quite far away from the major big cities like Tokyo and Osaka.

5:12So for example, if you just come to Kochi from Osaka, it takes about five hours by car or train. And if you come from Tokyo, you better take a flight, and it takes about one and a half hours. It's quite far away, but it's a really nice place. It really is. And I think that's what I meant when I earlier said I was planning to come to see Kochi for a long time like you do have to drive or you do need someone that can chauffeur you around a little bit and as well as where to go and where to base yourself right so we were made we were based in Kochi city Kochi city yeah central city yeah and then we just drove around in Kochi

6:04So you obviously are a tour operator what do you normally recommend for if people come to Kochi? Is it the place where you can just come for a day trip or is it the place where you feel like you need to stay at least 3-4 days to make it worth your time? um yeah definitely uh you cannot uh you know take only one day to trip in travel in kochi you better to have i don't know maybe three days or four days sometimes i i meet some travelers who stay five days six days every one week so longer is better to be honest i could have stayed longer yeah i think we only scratched the surface one didn't we although how many breweries did we Is he five, four?

6:50We visited five breweries, I believe. Yeah, five breweries, yeah. And I think, too, you know, I'm the same, Cindy. It was on my list for a long, long time, and I've been travelling to Japan since 2003 on a regular basis, and this year was the first time I finally got to Kortju. So it was a big tick off both of our bucket lists, and it was, yeah, definitely a wonderful experience. And we got to visit some really interesting breweries and taste, of course, some wonderful sake and shochu as well. True. So let's maybe talk a little bit about the breweries. How many breweries do we actually have in Kochi?

7:29It's around 20, isn't it? It's currently 19 breweries in Kochi Prefecture. When we did our trip, we visited five of them. To be honest, I actually had very little to do with organizing any of this, as you guys. took the lead on it. The breweries that we went to see were quite accessible in a way that they were welcoming people to come but they're difficult to reach from my opinion and how we were doing it. Are most breweries in Koji open for people to visit? I think so yes. Normally they accept kind of like visitors and they can show the breweries. But as you said, it's quite difficult to reach out.

8:17We need cars or kind of like taxi or drivers. So this is quite hard to reach out to the breweries in Kanchi. So just jumping in, Cindy, we actually visited six breweries. I know it was a lot to do in the space of three days, but I'm just looking at my list here just to jog my memory, which I shouldn't have to do since it was only three months ago, but that's how busy our lives have been. But we did visit six and some of them were quite new to me, even though they were very, very old breweries. And the breweries that we visited, I'll just go through the list. I think we started with Tosa Shuzo, who many will know for their brand Keigetsu.

9:00We visited Tsukasa Botan Brewery, Nishioka Brewery, Mutemuka Brewery, Fumimoto Brewery, and also we finished our little mini tour with Kamezumi, which was a wonderful way to finish because I think Cindy and I drank more sake in that tasting than we had for the whole three or four days prior. but some really interesting breweries and of course I was familiar with with a few of them but some of them were very very new to me and I think how we came up with that list was that Augie-san and I had a meeting online with a crew from the jams team or sake festival team hoping to perhaps plan an itinerary that we could take people over there and show them Kochi in the future.

9:50And we wanted sort of some really modern style sake producers as well as some really, you know, really traditional, really typical Kochi style sake producers as well. So I think we ticked all those boxes, but Augi-san certainly helped me add some more rurus to the list. Of course, I started really with Tosa Shuzo because having done TWTT, which some of your listeners are familiar with, the Taste with the Torji project. Matsumoto-san was one of the guests. He did two sessions over the five-year period of TWTT and he's such a wonderful character and I got to meet him in Japan and also in Australia.

10:28So he was sort of my number one to go and visit and then we worked together to create a list of six breweries. But Augi-san, maybe you can tell us why you chose some of the older breweries to go on that list. Older breweries? Sorry, Why do we order breweries? Like Tsukasa Botan and Nishioka, I think you felt that the history of those breweries was very important to our list. Yeah, actually the Tsukasa Botan Brewery is one of the oldest breweries in the country. It was a different brewery, which was quite old, but it's merged at some point in the past. So currently the Tsukasa Botan Brewery is the oldest.

11:09And Nishioka Brewery is also the old sake brewery in Kaochi. So the solo brewery itself, maybe Nishioka Brewery is the oldest, but Tsukasabotan Brewery has got kind of like, you know, the real oldest brewery. It's because it's March. That's why Tsukasabotan Brewery is said to be the oldest, correctly, in Kaochi. And then Nishioka Buriwari has got, you know, quite unique culture because that town located in Nishioka Buriwari is known as the place for bonito fish. So that's why this is also a good reason to visit so that you can enjoy the fish and saiken both at the same time. So this is the reason why I chose Nishioka Buriwari.

11:57Yeah, and maybe I'm sure Cindy's got some some questions to ask about the local cuisine. But before we get to that, I just wanted, Cindy, to say that you're actually responsible for choosing one of the breweries on that list. And that is, of course, Fumimoto, because you had a lovely friend who was working there at the time and we got to go and visit Fumimoto, which was a brewery that neither of us probably would have added to the list if it hadn't have been for you. And we had a wonderful experience there and decided to add it to the itinerary. So we have you to thank for that introduction. It was a team effort, guys.

12:34I think it all came magically, wonderfully together over the couple of days that we had. I certainly thought Kigitsu was one of my highlights, but it's something that I drink. And then the fact that we got to Kame Izumi, and again, you already mentioned, we had a lot of fun and a lot of sake there. It was certainly really, really amazing. I could not have done this by myself I think I keep want to highlight this it's a hard place to get around Koji it truly truly is so I'm just really really grateful I got to tag along and Ogi-san you're just talking about the Katsuboshi place that we went to which we didn't just have like a wonderful sake brewery experience but it was a tiny tiny fisherman's market where we got to taste kind of freshly sliced fish.

13:30And it really was a nice experience because you felt like you're in local Japan. You know, it wasn't like you're just passing through one of the big towns and you're getting the tourist experience. Although it was obviously something that was, we were doing it as tourists, but it really felt really local and quite wonderful. And I would hope that more people who come to Japan could kind of see that side and experience a couple of these things so um i do believe having a local guide or friend with us is always really um something well well worth um so we've talked already a little bit about food but we haven't really talked about kochi sake and what kochi sake actually tastes like because i'm not quite sure how available sake from kochi prefecture is Do you get a lot of that in Australia, Simone?

14:26We do get a little bit. I mean, it's funny, actually, the Kochi sake that I first fell in love with over here, or at least that I remember it being from Kochi, I may have had others, but not really noted where they were from, was, of course, Mutemuka. And Mutemuka is really not a Maynard-typical style sake in the fact that it's Moroccan Namagenchu. So I was very excited to be able to visit them, which of course is where we tried the chestnut shochu as well, which was also delicious. But I think most people that know a little bit about kochi sake in general, they're known, of course, for their dry karakuchi style sake and sake that's very easy to drink.

15:08Kochi people, and Ogi-san, correct me if I'm wrong, you're one of them. They have a big reputation for being massive sake consumers, right? They drink a lot of sake in Kochi Prefecture and they're quite famous for that. So I think mutemuka sake is probably not one that you can just keep throwing back like a lot of the drier, less aromatic style sake that a lot of the local producers are making. But yeah, very much designed to go with food, designed to be part of the social culture, which, of course, Kochi have some famous festivals based around sake and around community and the drinking culture.

15:50So we didn't get to experience a lot of that because there are certain dates throughout the year that these festivals run. But we certainly got to experience local hospitality, not just from Augisan, but just a great, a great vibe everywhere we went. The Hiromi market was, you know, a great vibe. Everyone was having such a good time and it was sake available at pretty much every stall there so it's um it's definitely embraced and it's my kind of place that embraces sake that way but uh yeah from i guess i guess to simplify it uh kochi sake is is known for being dry uh karakuchi style sake pairs really well with food particularly seafood because that's a huge part of their diet in kochi but we have a man who lives over there with us right now so perhaps he can elaborate a bit on the on the local cuisine in the style of sake yeah um people just said that uh you know that people in culture really like drinking sake and then uh when we have kind of like ritual kind of like ceremony we always have a drinking party and then during that party we have kind of like a drinking game and if you lose if you drink a lot so this is the culture in coaching At the same time, you know, we drink a lot, really a lot.

17:09So that's why the taste or the flavor of sake is kind of like lighter taste and quite dry taste. So they're easily drinking it. And in terms of the food, yeah, we have a lot of like seafood. Especially as I mentioned, the bonita fish is quite famous. People in Kochi like Jumai sake. People say that Jumai is quite parallel with Bonito fish. That's why people in Kochi like Jumai sake as well. And Bonito, of course, is quite fatty, isn't it? Like it's quite oily and fatty. So I think their really clean, dry style of sake tends to cut through the oiliness of a lot of those Bonito dishes. Yeah. But then of course, we have another sake that is quite, I'm going to say infamous because you either love it or you don't.

18:11Made from a very particular sake yeast from the area. Maybe you want to tell us a little bit about that as well? Me? Can I go on? Sure, please. Okay. actually there is a Kochi industrial technical center it's funded by local government and that technical center creates yeast and it can be used only the breweries in Kochi so the breweries outside of Kochi prefecture they cannot use it so it's quite unique in Kochi and then they create the various type of yeast and some make some like a fruitier and then some yeast has white banana-like flavour or apple-like flavours. So that's why, you know, currently there is quite a famous yeast called Cell 24 that was also created by the local clinical centre.

19:09So this is kind of special, you know, unique point about the yeast in Kochi. Yeah, and Cindy saw the Cell 24 label come out and she was smiling ear to ear because you either love it or you hate it and I think Cindy's definitely in the love in the love zone but um yeah I mean the yeast has high levels of ethyl caproate and even though we don't want to get too geeky um that's obviously what gives it the the high sort of fruity aroma so apple pineapple strawberry um on the palate super juicy super sweet uh but you know the sake we tried at Kamezumi. I'm not a massive sweet sake lover. However, they were so incredibly balanced.

19:55And I think if you make sake well, you can fall in love with sweet or dry sake if it's got that wonderful balance. And I think like anywhere, when you're in the brewery and you're tasting the sake and you're talking to the person who makes it or the person who owns the brewery, it just makes everything taste that much better too. But I have to say, I really enjoyed everything we tried at Kamezumi and not just the cell 24 yeast but they also had some space yeast and yeast that went up to space and then under under under the sea under the sea no they had some really funky things and I guess the whole kind of cell 24 it's just fun stuff you know I do think do people generally want to drink a whole bottle of it in one go maybe not but when this comes out I'm always very excited to kind of go to the place where it comes from and is so well made in so many varieties, I found it very exciting.

20:54So again thank you so much Ogi-san for organizing this because it was really quite spectacular a trip. So now from sake to festivals. I know there is a big festival, I believe it is in March, where lots of breweries do come together. What is it all about and is it worth going, Oki-san? The festival is called Tossa no Okyaku. Tossa means like the former name of Kochi Prefecture. In Okyaku means like generally it means a guest. But in Kochi, it means like a drinking party or the dinner party. So, you know, that festival is mainly for like sake lovers because we can drink a lot of sake. And then the town The city itself is going to be the venue of the drinking party.

21:46Especially Central Park, there are so many stalls. Then you can buy a lot of food and sake as well. Then in the shopping center, there is a kotatsu. It means that we can just set up the chairs on the floor. Then we can sit down on the floor. Then we have a lot of sake and drinking together with a family or friends. Things like that. But aside from that kind of like shopping arcade or the Central Park, there is kind of like event in hotels or real comes. And then 18 or 19 breweries can just come together. And then they serve each product for the guest. So we can join that kind of like event as well.

22:33This is the Okaku event. Okay. Kind of like drinking party. And you have a very special mascot, right? you have yeah Bero Bero no Kamisama Bero Bero gods yeah Bero Bero means like an expression of a drinking person drunken person so that that god is kind of like a drunken so I mean I'm gonna suggest for anybody listening to google this god from Koji because he has quite a particular look to him but when I was there and I was researching it a little bit I think they said he was the god of tipsiness and he will watch over gatherings of people drinking but he also helps you or protects you from hangovers and he helps you from falling down so he was rather useful especially in a place like Ochi where people love to drink a lot yeah well I have to say the mascot himself he looks like he's fallen over a few times and his eyes are kind of like spiral so I don't know how focused he is but I do remember the first thing that Cindy did when we got to the station was take a selfie with uh with the Bero Bero mascot it would have been a crime not to absolutely absolutely um just just I wanted to just jump in because one thing we didn't get to try and I and And I know, Ogi-san, it was on our itinerary for future tours in Kochi.

24:08But there's a famous or a local ramen that's quite popular. And tell us a bit about that. What is it? Naveki ramen is kind of like chicken soy base. It's together with a Chinese-oriented raw egg. And once we eat all the noodles, we just normally put rice in it so that we can just you know finish the soup and rice together this is really good ramen do you have sake with it um yeah of course sake yes because you know i was going to say something earlier like simone you were saying about the hiromi market yeah yeah hiromi market right so i think lots of people when they hear market they think it might just be like market style like fresh food or like fish market or something but this is actually a little bit different than what people might imagine because I think we walked in and we're a bit like wow what's going on in here for lunchtime can you tell us a little bit what the market is and how to enjoy it okay uh here with market is kind of like a food market and then uh it's inside not you know uh open air market it's indoor and there are about i think 80 80 stalls in the market and then you can get of course traditional japanese food or chinese food or italian food um quite various types of food and almost not all stores have japanese sake beers uh shochu sours you know a lot of alcohol beverages and things like that and then actually um the seat and table are all free so um you go first and you just keep the table and chair then uh you buy food and once you buy the food or drink you can just go back to the table and chairs and you can just enjoy it i think it's open every day especially friday and saturday it's quite busy so i really recommend going there about Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday maybe.

26:17Would you recommend going in the morning or is it open lunch and dinner as well? In the morning, it's not open yet, but lunchtime and dinnertime, yes, it's open, but dinner is the best timing to go. And I think the really fun part about it too, Cindy, I mean, we didn't explore it as much as we'd initially planned because, of course, for anyone who lives in Japan or has travelled to Japan in September, it's incredibly hot and humid. So the ramen was out because that was just too hot. And inside the market was, look, I won't lie, it's not air-conditioned luxury because it's an indoor market. It's certainly not that.

27:02But I think one of the things that would appeal to somebody coming from outside of Japan is that, as Augie-san was saying, the tables and chairs are free however so you can't book but you're basically sitting with locals so you can't really pick and choose exactly where you sit you've got to sit wherever there's an empty spot available and sometimes it might even be worth getting someone to save you a few seats while some of you go off and order some sake and food but you're definitely thrown into the local culture amongst the local people and I think despite the language barriers once everyone's had a few sake or beers.

27:39You know, the conversation gets easier and the communication is pretty loose, but it's always a lot of fun. And the other thing, you can just get anything you want, right? You have a vast variety of different cuisines and foods at all price points. So you can literally just sit down, get five different things from five different stalls, all the sake you want, because impressive sake fridges were literally at every single booth. So really, really nice way of exploring the local cuisine with the sake. And then hopefully, or you never know, make a couple of friends as you're sitting down and drinking.

28:19Because to be quite honest, I think that's what normally happens, right? When you're drinking in an izakaya in Japan, you sit down and then after 20 minutes, someone starts to come over and talk to you. now as we've covered a little bit about our our food stories and sake stories did you have any highlights timon from our little trip there or anything that stood out to you in particular it's i i'm not a parent but it's kind of like that question do you have a favorite child isn't it um and you do no well i usually do yes correct uh look i i think each place we went to sake-wise anyway, was just so different.

28:59And we did different things at each brewery too. We didn't do a full tour because we were on a bit of a tight timeline. So we didn't do a full tour at every single brewery. I have to say, of course, going to Tosashuzo or Kegetsu after, you know, being in touch with Matsumoto-san for so long and, as I said, seeing him out here and also in Japan several times, it was really nice to go to his brewery. Sadly, he wasn't able to join us that day. He was in Tokyo. But we went to the rice fields, you know, the terraced rice fields, and that's something that I've been wanting to see for a long, long time is those terraced sake rice fields in Japan, and it was absolutely stunning.

29:41I think another highlight for me, again, was probably Mutemuka just because I've been a long-time fan of their sake, but I was really, really blown away by the chestnut shochu. and then of course yeah to finish to finish it at Kamezumi and try gosh I think we lost count of how many how many beverages we tried but it was just such a fun experience just a fun day he was super super proud of everything that he was putting in front of us and such a jolly person to be around and of course gave us that was it nigori and tomato juice that we were drinking or some sort of sake and tomato juice which is something I never thought I'd drink but I actually quite enjoyed it.

30:21So, so many, so many wonderful experiences and meeting so many wonderful people. And I think too, just, just being in Kochi. I also have to say another highlight was meeting Augie-san in person because he was just incredibly hospitable and so generous with his time and his knowledge. And like you said, it's really hard to get around without a vehicle. And of course, if you're drinking, you don't want to be driving. So poor Augie-san had to refrain from trying. He was really just sniffing while we were tasting. But pretty much everywhere we went was at least an hour's drive from where we were based.

30:58So if you are travelling to Kochi, that is something to be mindful of. However, places like the Hiromi Market, if you are staying in Kochi City, are just a walking distance away. But everything was just great. I mean, I'm still raving on to family and friends about my experience in Kochi. And, yeah, I'm just very grateful that I was able to share it with the two of you as well. Totally, no? I mean, I'm just going to say everything was a highlight for me anyway. But I was going to say, what was your highlight, Ogi-san? But you're living there, so I'm assuming you're, similarly to Simone, you have your little favorite things at every place that you brought us to.

31:41Yeah, actually, some areas has, like, as Susan said, quite beautiful nature. like we went to that rice field and some breweries are located you know kind of like quite rural area and kind of like near the mountain or near the rivers so you know you can visit the breweries at the same time you can also visit like you know rivers or mountains or kind of like farmers and even we have several like orchards so that you can just you know get fruit or fresh vegetables and you can just eat it on that site so um yeah that's a lot of good things to try and then usually uh you stay in kochi city right in there based in that kochi city uh we can just go to the you know several places by car so yeah i don't know what to say well maybe we can give our listeners a couple of little practical advice a couple of practical tips um if they are now listening to us and do want to go visit kochi do you think there's any season that would be best to visit don't go in september it's grand don't go anytime no that's just me but ugi-san you live there like what do you think is the best time for people to come over?

33:10It's the best timing is maybe in spring and autumn. So it's better to come here in April, March, April, May, and also October and November. This is the best timing to come. And we've already touched upon it a little bit because it takes such a long time to get there from anywhere really. I mean, I think from Kyoto, we had about four hours on the Shinkansen to get their changing trains. How long do you think people should plan in? Because I think what we haven't really mentioned was the timings to and from the brewery. So I think we generally were at least about an hour driving to each brewery from Kochi.

33:53Right. Yeah. So people normally spend five days or one week in Kochi. because Scotch is quite the big prefecture and then you have to have one drive. So, yeah, four nights, five nights is better. Yeah, I think, too, it depends how many places you want to visit if we're talking sake breweries specifically. And so, as you know, Cindy, Augie-san and I were doing some research for tours that we have one scheduled in March 2026 and also another in March 2027. and we're visiting the six breweries that we talked about. And so the tour is designed to be seven days, so one week. So I think if you have access to a vehicle when you're over there or you have a designated driver and you want to see, you know, five or six breweries, some nature, do a couple of other interesting things, visit a tea farm, which is something else that's on our itinerary, plus many, many other things, I think probably between five to seven days would be really good.

34:58But again, like you and I, I mean, we could have stayed there for another couple of weeks and still not seen everything we wanted to see, which is the same. You can say the same for anywhere in Japan and anywhere in the world. But we specifically designed a seven day itinerary because we think that's that that's a pretty good amount of time. And also covers you get to cover a lot of a lot of ground based in Kotschi City and just heading off for the day each day in a different direction. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I, again, I can't even drive. I mean, that's the other point. Like I don't get around anywhere unless I can go on a public transport.