Sipping in Style: Exploring Japan’s Sake Cups

0:22Thank you for tuning into another episode of Sake On Air, the world's first podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, sake, shochu, and awamori. My name is Miho, and today I'm with Robert Yelling. He's a Japanese pottery expert, and together we'll be talking a lot about sake cups and vessels. Hi, Robert. Thank you for coming. Well, it's a joy to be back on Sake On Air, and I thank you for having me after six years from our previous session together. So thank you very much. yes we talked to you Robert six years ago in 2020 episode 52 it would be great if you could listen to it after this episode or before so I think shuki or hakei vessels are quite unique to Japanese drinking experience that is not there's no parallel in other drinking cultures around the outside of Japan.

1:33Maybe there is, but I can't really think of any. Yeah, I think the closest would be China or Korea because they also have a tea culture. But in the West, I don't know either. I can't think of any other than maybe beer steins in Germany. But yeah, I think you're right. And of course, it's indebted to the world of tea and the tea ceremony because a lot of vessels that we see were part of a kaiseki meal. And thankfully that has survived throughout the ages and such a Japanese wonderful aesthetic, a kaiseki meal. And guinomi and tokuri are part of that, as well as katakuchi, which is a spouted pouring vessel.

2:17So I agree with you. I don't think there's any culture that's taken a simple thing as a sake cup and brought it into so many varieties of styles. That's what's the joy of Japanese ceramics and Japanese pottery is that there's so many different styles like sake because of the regions. And you have up north, there's not a whole lot. There's Tsumuyaki, I think, up in Tohoku somewhere. Of course, Mashiko in Tochigi. But every region has some local potter. Even if there's not a historical association like these ancient kilns, there are individual studio potters throughout Japan. And they're all making, most of them make sake vessels, shuki, because it's the most collected form that they show at exhibitions.

3:15And one of the reasons is they're small. And a lot of people live in small houses or apartments or whatever. and they they want a collection but they can't have a big tsubo jar but you can have a collection of a dozen or two dozen shuki guinomi in a small cabinet in all different varieties and it will give you so much pleasure you know and and one of my dilemmas every night is which one am i going to use which one is calling me robert pick me pick me so you know i have hundreds of guinomi because that's how I started out as a collector. And I have ones that I bought long ago that were teachers in a way.

4:01I've learned the lesson from them. I don't find them interesting anymore, but they were, you know, a growing level of learning about different styles, different makers, different price points. And, you know, the first one I bought was at a supermarket in aisle seven next to, you know the miso packs it was like 300 yen yeah what did it look like the very it was um you know probably it was machine made uh you know porcelain with the you know uh painted flour or something kind of a cliche looking sake cup well when i came here my eye was not attuned to jimi wabi-sabi, suboku, all these Japanese aesthetics of being related to nature.

4:49My eye was still a Western eye looking at something that pops out as beautiful. And that was imari porcelain or kutani, things which had great skill as painterly type of items. and that was a good start and somebody gave me a bizen guinomi once or a yunomi and I couldn't understand it because I was trying to under I was trying to get to the essence by looking at it with the eyes of a renaissance perfection western educated eye and the cup was like shut up the cup told me to shut up and look and and talk to me in silence and then you will get the essence of the beauty of material just like a great chef you know in japan they don't cover it with sauces like you know you can you can take a onion and fire it in a wood-burning kiln with a oven with a little salt and it's the best thing you've ever tasted and bizen is bringing out and other high-fired unglazed stonewares are bringing out the beauty of the clay, the material.

6:04And each one is unique. You can never get the same one. And then it becomes like holding a shell or a rock. It's right out of nature. And of course, there's the consciousness of the potter, but there's also the reverence of material. Yes. Listening to your previous episode, I realized how drinking sake in a nice sake cup is a holistic experience. Not just the taste, but the touch, the temperature, the smell, and even the sound. You were talking about how tokuri makes this specific sound when pouring into a cup. Right. Yeah, you want it, as I might have mentioned in the previous episode, like six years ago, I don't remember.

6:57But when you're buying a tokuri sake flask, find one where the opening and the neck is about as wide as your pinky or thereabouts. Because then we'll make that rhythmical sound, which is very poetic. If it's too wide, the sake just gushes out and it's rather boring. But yes, it is very holistic because you're holding something out of nature. You're holding something that was born from a kiln where the artist, the potter, the ceramicist, whatever you want to say, is working with nature and sometimes letting go of control. And that's where kind of the magic happens. And you're holding something that is rooted in the present, but is related to the past and will bring somebody happiness in the future as well as it brings you happiness now.

7:53So, yes, it is very holistic. And holding a tea bowl is very holistic because, as I mentioned, it's nourishing your whole essence of being. It's not just what you're drinking. You're examining it. you're holding it you're looking at it and i've heard people say i've i was using this we know me and i enjoyed it so much that i forgot two hours passed you know if time ceases to exist it's really amazing it's a magical vessel it truly is you know so out of the 100 plus sake cups that you have how do you pick one for the night or do you go through a different uh a few different cups in one night. I do, I do, I do.

8:41I have a nice lacquer tray and I'll put two or three guinomi. It's about seasons. I really love, it's called suchi-aji, the flavor of the clay. So I tend to go for works that are high-fired, unglazed stoneware, like bi-zen, shigaraki, sometimes tamba uh echi zen um and as i said karatsu is a very favored uh style for sake cups i have some from the 16th century wow you know and i'm like okay i want to use that or or maybe i'm thinking of an artist or uh a deceased artist or somebody i know So then I'll like, oh, I want to talk with this person and I'll do that via holding their cup. So there's no guidance really or rote method.

9:40It's just, it's all a feeling basically. Right. It's like picking what to wear for the day. What to wear for the day, you know, or trying to, you know, look in the sky full of clouds and pick your favorite one. They're all kind of cool, you know. but it makes such a difference you know like i said a lot of people they just want to drink but you know drink with style drink with grace drink with flair and and and you know support the culture not only through buying sake but also the the great ceramicists throughout japan who want you to enjoy it in a way that is a japanese aesthetic you know now you know glasses are fine uh what's the the glass maker who's making uh you know ginjo glasses and riddle riddle great if that's your introduction you know do it and i know one person who's like i will never drink sake out of a out of a ceramic cup because it's not rounded uh as much as i like because i like to swirl the sake around and get, you know, aroma, a nose to it.

10:52Okay, that's fine. Just drink sake, you know, Nihonshu. And maybe one day you'll figure out that you can swirl some around, you know, a wide-bodied sake vessel, and there are those. You can swirl it around and get a nice nose to it. And of course, the different shapes of the guinomi and the thickness of the lip will change flavor profiles. I probably mentioned that in the past. A wide open cup with a thin lip, the sake comes right to the tip of your tongue. If it's a taller cup with a thicker lip, it'll go to the back of your tongue. So you put the same sake in both of those cups, you'll come out with a different flavor profile.

11:41Yeah, so your friend, what he or she can do is maybe use a glass to get all the aroma first. And then for the second cup, he can choose a different ceramic, like a different cup that could be ceramic. Because the touch to the lips really adds another layer to the joy of drinking. It's very sensual. There was once a B-Zen potter named Nakamura Rokuro, and he was known as the King of Shuki. His sake cups, and I'll send you a photo if you want, it's called a mountain path, Yama no Michi. And it kind of rises and descends around the cup. But where the cup meets your lip, it's inserted so smoothly.

12:33And he always said, when you drink sake from one of my cups, it should be like your first kiss. Yes, you mentioned that quote in the previous episode, and I didn't realize it was from a Bizen maker. Nakamura Rokuro. He studied with the first living national treasure of Bizen named Kaneshige Toyo, who is responsible for the popularity of Bizen today because he was able to bring back the ancient ways of firing that were lost during the Meiji period. So he had a great teacher. And his son is Makoto, and his grandson is Kazuki. And Kazuki has exhibitions throughout Japan. And he makes sake cups guinomi in the style of his grandfather, equally as good, maybe zero less on the price.

13:24So search out his name. I've known him since he was in elementary school or so. Now he's in his 40s. And his cups have that kissable likeness to them when you put them to your lips. Yeah, it's interesting because Bizen is unglazed and a little bit rough. It can be. Glazed ceramics. But first kiss, it is. It's a super popular style, Bizen. and as such there are hundreds and hundreds of potters in the bizen area during the bubble years there were many more but um it's it's the most popular style of high-fired anglazed stoneware uh of course there's shigaraki but shigaraki only has a dozen or so really really fine potters who were making shuki but bizen has dozens and dozens so uh and there are um bizen specialty galleries in tokyo and in kyoto as well um so yeah uh go go find something uh uh in the style that you that you like but certainly it's called yakishime the high-fired unglazed stoneware are kind of the core roots of Japanese ceramics.

14:54That's right I was actually in Bizen at the end of last year and went to a studio and made my own sake cup. I'm still waiting for it to arrive but yeah well they only well if it's going to be fired in a traditional you know makigama wood burning kiln sometimes they only fire that once a year or twice a year so that's my you want to be waiting really you made it well i want to look at it i will kante i will evaluate uh you please do yeah maybe we'll even give it a poetic name oh that would be amazing and it will flow through time. Maybe somebody in 500 years or 800 years from now will look upon the cup and go, I wonder who used this once?

15:41How did it flow through time and places to come into my hands now? So there's something more than just imbibing the drink. There's the history, there's the regionality of different styles of pottery, which are fascinating. And some of those also equate to seasons. And you examine the cup. It not only nourishes your body, well, gets you buzzed at the same time. It also, you look at it, you examine it, you turn it over. Just like a chalan, a matcha bowl. After you drink matcha in a traditional ceremony, you turn it over. You look how the foot is carved. And you can do that with guinomi as well, which is a sake cup.

16:28I mean, there's different terms there's sakazuki there's high uh there's choco and there's guinomi but guinomi is basically the term used now and it's a lot bigger than ochoco uh because sake is more available now to the masses and uh you have larger cups but you don't have to fill them right it's the ma the empty space which is part of the enjoyment of course when you go to some izakayas they'll they'll pour it over in a glass and they'll pour you know they'll flow into the dish and that's a nice service uh and hospitality but if you're drinking with some friends you know you leave some ma some emptiness and i went i once went to a bizen potter the famous kaneshige family kaneshige michiaki and i bought one of his bizen guinomi and i said it's really large and he goes you know you westerners think you have to fill it up to the top to the brim you know just to the brim and he goes no only fill it up a third and notice how particularly with the sake or the liquid splashes around the cup or you move it around and the the clay starts to glisten and you can't do that if it's full and um there's an old expression um uh you put sake into a bizen flask and it becomes better and a connoisseur's combination is a karatsu which is a style as many styles are named after towns it's the name of a town in saga prefecture A connoisseur's combination is a karatsu guinomi and a bizentokkuri.

18:17That's the epitome of refinement, you know. And there are many young artists making these vessels still, very reasonably priced. And keeping traditions alive is very important now because so many artisans and craftsmen do not have heirs or apprentices to follow. so you know support the culture by also adding vessels to your collection uh and there are really good ones for two three four thousand yen you know you don't have to spend a lot of money and you're going to use it with care and joy and especially like um like where like busy and where that's kind of rough on the surface at the beginning.

19:07As you use it, it starts to kind of have this, starts to take this shine almost. And, you know, like the texture changes over time, through the night, but also like over years. It does. And you should also allow the guinomi to drink as well. So you dip your finger into the guinomi and you rub some sake on the outside. And over time, the patina, as you say, will change. And there's one style that's known to change seven times. Now, I don't know if that's over 100 years or so, but it's hagi-yaki and it's called nanabake. And, you know, and the potters equate it like to bring up a child. You're going to raise this cup.

19:58so it will mature over time and you know hagi is kind of a porous type of glaze and clay body so the liquid seeps into it which is not a really good style to use in summertime because it's very humid and if you don't dry it properly it will get mold cubby right so So, hagi is much better in cooler months or in the spring before it gets too humid. But you'll see a change. It'll get crackles. It'll get little colorations. Some of it's referred to as amamori, like a leaky roof in an old thatched roof house. And these are desired effects. I think it's just like sake. You know, there are some reputed sakes over others, but it just comes down to your preference.

20:54If you like a sake that's inexpensive, that's available everywhere, that's totally fine. It's the same with sake cups. Exactly. There's no correct way. It's your own personal aesthetic vision or how you want to. There's no wrong way to drink sake. you know oh you're drinking it from the wrong cup you know in in the summer you're you're not supposed to use a black seto cup seto guru you know because because it's dark and and you just look at it in the summer and you'll start to sweat because it doesn't look cool you know it looks like it should be held next to a fireplace you know so in the summertime you maybe want to use glass or pewter, as I said, but in the world of ceramics, porcelain, jiki, because it's cool to the touch.

21:49Or you might want to use something called seihakuji, which is a bluish white porcelain and the glaze looks like ice. So just gazing upon that in the deep humidity of, you know, midsummer, you'll feel cool just from the emotion the cup imparts to you. you know you have so many cups and just out of personal curiosity how do you keep them how do you store them because that's becoming a problem for me i had a carpenter a carpentry make a special box or a display case for holding the sake cups we know me so yeah and I have a room upstairs totally devoted to the whole collection wow some of them are in you can find them at flea markets temple markets a tea chest and I think there are makers of boxes specifically for guinomi wow So I kind of have a tana, a little chest with, you know, five or six shelves.

23:09And at the front of the shelf, there is like a raised bar so they won't slide out. And I often keep them upside down to dry them. You know, I don't put them flat so the air can't get inside. but you also want to dry the base uh so um that's how i a lot of them uh but i'll send a picture i'll show you if you want do you go through trends like a personal trend yes yes okay what is your trend currently well i'm always looking for specific artists and particularly um ones that um well i met tsujiseime so tsujiseime was born 1927 uh and passed away in 2008 he was known as the yokozuna sake drinking potter of the east because he was just like a shuki master his tokuri are bold and they have the perfect lip on the tokuri which is kind of like a tulip so it's easy to pour the sake in because it's kind of averted and every day on private auctions or public auctions I'm looking for Tsujiseime's work and then in Bizen is Mori Tougaku who was born in 1936 so he'll be 90 years old wow still amazing um when hideyoshi went to bizen in the late momoyama period he designated six families as his honorable craftsmen and the mori family is one of them so his history goes way back and he built a very large kiln 85 meters it took him 20 26 years to build this kiln 26 uh 85 meters long six meters across 26 years to build five years to load the kiln so to me he's like hercules wow and his his guinomi and tokuri are like zen they have a an aura of a zen monk wow so he only fires every five years no no he the the kiln was loaded it it took five years to put the pieces in the kiln because it was so large wow he only fired that kiln once uh in december december in uh 2015 he he lit the fire on january 4th and he fired the kiln for 107 days oh my goodness this is legendary stuff he has a smaller kiln he fired last year which is 20 meters and he called me up i've got a few tokuri a few guinomi so i went there and i bought them early this year but i'm also looking at dealers auctions and private auctions so mori togaku suji seimei of course nakamura rokuro the great kaneshige toyo rosanjin but these are pricey pieces you know these are in the hundreds of thousands of yen so you know you got to be a high-end collector or deep pockets and and as a beginner i would not go that route i would say you know find a really good bees and potter who's selling a fine guinomi for go say in 5 000 yen you know and they they exist you know right you know so start low and then go high yes as with anything anything i guess and you know i have uh my gallery here in kyoto and i'm using an old kusuri danceu an old korean medicine chest as a display chest for guinomi now so once where there were potions and all types of herbs in the drawers, there's all these sake cups.

27:30And I don't remember which one is which one is where. So yeah, I do go through trends and I go to feeling, but it comes and goes. But those three people are always on the lookout for. wow yeah I'm not to not there yet to follow specific artists I just go to different trips and look for local ceramic shops and I love looking through sake cups yeah so anyone can start there yeah it's a little treasure hunt for sure and it's just almost like romantic to think who used this before i love that i you know i have this 12th century cup i have a 500 year old korean cup i have a couple of um momiyama period 16th century karatsu guinomi and even even current pieces um i when we're talking about how things are made you know i'm not a technical person i'm an aesthetic person and i don't really care what temperature something is fired at that's not going to make me appreciate the piece more you know i don't care what percentage the rice was milled at i'm sorry i just i i do i like it does it appeal to me and the same with these cups i don't you know i'd rather be mystified I think mystery is something which is lacking in people's lives.

29:06They want to know everything and they want to know it now. So, you know, like you're saying, this old piece, who held it before? Where did it come from in terms of flowing through time? And that to me is poetry. That to me is like holding an ancient basho haiku in your hand. and it brings such spirituality and mysticism into a functional object. And that's the beauty of Japanese culture in many ways, particularly things that you use to dine with, to drink with. There's so much surrounding it that you'll never know the answers to, but ask the questions. Right. Yeah, I think, as you mentioned, these painted porcelain like Kutani and Arita are beautiful, but very simple, almost like earth-like wares like Bizen are very, very poetic.

30:16they are i mean absolutely uh the the skill that goes into the painting of some of these like very very detailed kutani pieces are amazing you know you have this very uh thin brush uh and the the eyesight they must their eyesight must go bad in their 30s or so because it's so minute this skill there's one guy in kutani his name is fukushima buzan um seriously how did you paint that and it's all control they know exactly what they want and good for them they're able to achieve that but these wood-fired pieces like you say um there's something completely different and you load the kiln you know the kilns were introduced in the 6th century the anagama tunnel kiln in the 16th century the noborigama at the climbing kiln and you load the kiln now very precisely because you know how the ash and the fire is going to flow but you can't predict how it's going to come out you have knowledge you have experience but you have to let go sometimes of total control so for me that's a lot of metaphors somewhat of a metaphor of life in a way.

31:40You're not going to be able to control everything, but beauty will come about if your heart is in the right place most of the time. And these pieces, which are fired in a wood-burning kiln, have often a jewel-like glassy facade from the ash. It's called a shi zanyu, natural ash glaze. And you don't know how that's going to come out. The kiln is like a womb. And some potters say these pieces are born they're not made right so um yeah every region that's what makes uh ceramics and sake as well so so fascinating because every region has its own flavor its own style based on the traditions of the past and of course people are creating traditions based on the past and making them fresh and new.

32:34And that's important because tradition is a living thing. And as we mentioned, Bizen, it's a thousand years old, but nobody needs a huge rice storage jar for a year's worth for a family of three. I have a big one like that outside of the gallery. And if the society's changing, lifestyles change, and if pottery and sake do not change, they disappear or they become obsolete. And I'm not just talking about pottery or sake, but ideas of tradition, if they don't evolve, they can even become dangerous. Right. That's why there's war, because we have not evolved as a species. We're stuck 2 ,000 years ago in ideas and thoughts.

33:27So tradition is a living thing and it needs to change. So you have people, young artists and people who are veterans as well in these regions who learned from the past, broke everything and made that new to themselves. What is that called? Shuhari? Shuhari or onkotsu shing. Yeah. And you need to learn your foundation because you need to learn the basics and then you make it into your own voice if you're able to. So, you know, tradition is a living thing. And we have to understand that, you know, look how society is changing so fast. You know, 20 years ago, you know, the Internet, you know, well, maybe a little longer because I started my gallery in the 90s.

34:21in the infancy of the internet. So, but you know, that was science fiction for me growing up. I'm 65 now. And society's changing so quick, even more at a rapid pace than ever. So ideas, traditions have got to keep up with that change. Right. And there's a great poem by Lao Tzu, sixth century Chinese philosopher. And he said that each piece should be as a heartbeat or a signature of the potter. And that will make the pot better, which is more alive. And the better developed a potter is as a human being, the better the pot. For there's no real beauty without character. So there's a consciousness.

35:13It's going beyond technique. Anybody can learn to throw a guinomi or a rice bowl. That's technique. But we're looking for spirit. And we're looking for the consciousness in a very subtle, quiet way. When you hold something made by a person. Right. And thankfully, there are wonderful women now making great guinomi. Really, really wonderful. My favorite is Kimata Kaoru. she was just here a couple weeks ago she brought about 20 guinomi i bought them all she studied in karatsu she's now in hyogo and you know she loves sake and like i said maybe i haven't said it if a potter does not drink sake they probably will not make a really fine sake cup because because the experience of using something that you made based on a beverage will only in you know make it more enjoyable to use that doesn't mean that you know potters who don't drink sake their sake cups are no good but i i think they lack a depth of experience right it's particularly the lip right right it's interesting because i think some great dojis don't drink um but still make great sake yeah so that's the thing it's it equates the same i love looking through pictures online uh and then just i can easily spend hours looking at pictures of great sake cups online but it's it's a completely different experience when you can actually touch it um feel it uh and hold hold and feel the weight sure absolutely absolutely the texture the weight uh you know it's not just the visual beauty it's all the things you just said um when i started collecting there was no internet but there was a publishing company called Kougei Shuppan.

37:23And they would have picture books. It was like all guinomi and by hundreds and hundreds of artists. And it's really important, as you said, to look at these different things, develop your eye, particularly if you're new to the world of Japanese ceramic art. You know, look at the classic pieces, look at what's made before, look at the different styles, learn about the different styles, because it's really hard at first, but you have to look and develop a database of knowledge to know what is what. Because if you look at sometimes Shigaraki or Ichizen and Iga, it's hard to differentiate, you know, or Tamba sometimes.

38:06So yes, it's very important to look, and it's so easy these days because you have the internet but if you are in jimbo cho uh or going online it's like guinomi zukan and it's just pictures and pictures and pictures and pictures of contemporary artists and that's where i learned a lot just by pouring through these books you know so a really really good point you know that um Yeah, look, develop an eye, develop your own preferences and aesthetic, because only you can do that. It's true. Don't put your finger to the wind. Right. So you had a morning tennis session, and it's getting quite warm. uh what if you were to pick a sake cup uh what kind of cup would it be today um i'll probably go with sujiseime one of his cups but also um because it's we're going to start to get warmer i might use um a huggy cup or something that i would not use as the seasons are changing now, slowly but changing.

39:21Before it gets too humid, I might use a cup that I would not use. And as we're getting into spring, this morning I drank matcha from a rosy type of pinkish chino. So I like to try to match with the seasons. And I think chino is a wonderful spring type of a cup with its red and pink blushes, the beauty of this feldspark creamy glaze. So I like to use Shino in the approaching spring. A cup that I got from Kimata-san, which is very colorful uh greens and blues and uh and the form uh is so sensual in a way and and properly fits in my hands so uh i had a dream about that cup so i'll probably use that one again i've had dreams of pottery and i i had dreams of flying over Bizen, you know, it's, I mean, it's an obsession.

40:34I've been to Bizen hundreds of times. I take people there. So, you know, if anybody's in Kyoto or it's an off season for me and you want to have a sake party or you want to bring some friends and we'll go to Bizen, I'm sure we can arrange something. And even sake on air, you guys get together sometimes? I mean, in Tokyo, have parties? yeah okay so i want to come up i will bring a suitcase of various periods of guinomi various styles and let's have a little uh hands-on session of uh sake at your selected venue you know i used to we used to do that with john all the time because john and i have kind of a parallel life John is an engineer he wants to know technical things I wanted to be a poet so I'm more aesthetics you know but we would have these we were writing columns as you know in the Japan times at the parallel time and we would say like is anybody reading our columns let's have a little gathering so you know we would put an announcement we're going to meet the first place was Mushu it was know, Wajicho in Tokyo.

41:49And I would come up from Shizuoka. It was easy. And then we met at Takura. Used to be in the Kokusai Forum. And John would talk about an aspect of sake. And I would talk about pottery. And I'd bring up vessels. And I'd let people use them. You know, people are, well, I'm so nervous. Why are you nervous? Just pick it up. You're not going to break it, you know, and everything has its own destiny. And if you do break it, it's okay. Okay. We'll get it kintsugi-ized. But I always found it fascinating to watch people using a really good guinomi for the first time and their reaction, you could just see their eyes light up.

42:32It's so different. And now you're not only tasting history and culture, you're holding it as well. which can be very nerve-wracking sometimes, depending on the piece. Well, yes and no. I mean, just calm yourself, take a deep breath. Yes, it's a 16th century, 4 million yen kokoratsu cup, but just be one with it. It's true. It's a problem that I have. I buy nice ceramics, and then I just get scared of using them, which is silly because you know i buy them to to be used yo no be exactly beauty through using something the person made it to be used right in a calm joyful manner they didn't want it to be put into a cupboard in the box stuffed away and only brought out uh you know on well some pieces are just made for special occasions, but everything has its own destiny, even a cup.

43:39So live with it, enjoy it, because life is short, you know, and why not make every day special? You know, why is one day New Year's and the other not? You know, when you go to Kawaii Kanjiro's house in Kyoto, he passed away in 66, he's got New Year's decorations up all year round, you know? why save that special sake well you might for your anniversary or birthday but that's also today true every day is special every day is magic right you know and and when you're aware of that everything like you're in awe of existence that you're alive you can flick your fingers it took a billion years. Never take anything for granted.

44:27You know, not even a sake cup. Use it. It's a gift to be able to enjoy a meal. You know, Rosanjin said plates are kimono for food. You know, nothing has been taken to this highest level of elegance, sophistication, and simplicity than a Japanese meal. You know, the vessels, a chopstick rest can be like a dragon. Oh, my hashioki is a dragon. How cool is that? You know, and the sake cup was made by a 14th generation who just got their new succession name. You know, it's 10 ,000 yen, but it's 14 generations, you know. Or it's some new person who just graduated art university, you know, and is having their debut show and you happen to like it.