Gekkeikan’s Past, Present, and Future with Okura Taiji-san

0:00Welcome back and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sake on air, the world's first podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, sake, shochu, and of course, kaomori. We are made possible with the support of the Japan Sake and Shochu Makers Association, and as maybe those of you who are watching the video podcast can see, we are in the Japan Sake and Shochu Makers Association right now. My name is Frank Walter, and today I'm joined by Oprah Taiji, the Vice President of Gekei Kang. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Very nice to meet you as well.

0:31So today we're going to be talking all things Gekecon, particularly with a view towards the future. Yeah, okay. So maybe to get started, could you tell us a little bit about Gekecon? I mean, I guess it's a very famous brand. You'd be very surprised if nobody knew anything about it, but maybe a little bit about the history of the Okura family in general. Okay. Thank you for, how can I say, thank you for hosting me here. Absolutely. Let me talk about Gekkan and my family, Okura family's history. Gekkan is a company called Kasagia. We started sake business for almost 400 years. So 1637 officially.

1:22Okay. So now it's 389 years. 389 years. More or something like that. And the company name is Kasagiya because we come out to Fushimi from Kasagi. So that's just a place of name. Okay. So we are Kasagiya because we are from Kasagi. So we did this circuit business for almost 100 years in Fushimi, which is the south part of Kyoto city now. And actually that's formerly the other city or the city next to Kyoto as the old capital of Japan.

2:09So we are doing the business for one years in Fushimi, but now I think people, almost all people who's doing something with sake knows Gekkan. But Gekekan became famous in Meijera, so late 1800s and almost 1900s. During the Edo period, you weren't a big brewery. We are one of the big in the city, but it's actually a very local brewery. That's a very basic misunderstanding of Gekekan. So for Edo Era, of course Nada is the biggest, and before Nada, Ikeda Itami, which is a big brewing district. Fushimi is not quite a very... even Fushimi is not quite a famous place for brewing. Okay. Yeah. So, Fushimi and Gekekan became famous after Meiji.

3:25After Meiji. Yeah. And so, what's the turning point of that role of Fushimi and Gekekan?

3:36So, my grand-grand-grandfather. Grand-grand-grandfather? Yeah. So, my father is now 14th generation. Uh-huh. So Elevens was actually a very good management leader. Yeah. And that's the Meiji period leader? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he took that management role, I think it's 14 years or something. Because his brother, older brother, his father died soon. Yeah. He took that role. When he was like 14 years old? Yeah. Whoa. Okay. Yeah. So really young. Just really young. And he grown up. And he decided to install Western technology, science, to sake brewing. Okay. We established a research institute of sake brewing.

4:43that's the first one in Japan's history. The private one is the first one. The national one should be there. The first private research institute. And one of the biggest developments was sake brewing without any preservatives. So it means before that development, other breweries are using preservatives. I can't say that the preservatives' name in Japanese, but... What is it in Japanese? Sarichur-san-methyl. Sarichur-san-methyl. Something methyl. Okay, we'll look it up. I'll put it in the show notes. So that became a big boom. Even for now, people like something without preservatives, right? So that was a big boom in Tokyo market.

5:50And we became... So it was our first step of growing. Okay. We have some other aspects. So the brand name, Etecan. we made it in 1905. Okay, 1905. So at his generation. Yeah. And also, so it's not our achievement, but Japan's got the Hokkaido Railway. Yeah, yeah. Railway. That's actually from Tokyo to Kawato or Osaka or something. Yeah. So that enables us to transport our sake to Tokyo market a lot cheaper and faster. So beforehand, we have to bring our sake to Kobe, Nada. And from that place, we're sending our sake by ship. Oh, so even though Nada is making sake, everything is shipping. Yeah, yeah.

6:59Why not so strong is, one thing is of course the quality of sake, but from other aspects, like transportation, logistics, is a big aspect of their strengths. But then you didn't have to do that anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, from after that major. Yeah. So I just forgot the very big thing. We also...

7:30So we are one of the first breweries who bottled sake in a glass bottle. Oh, okay. What was used before that? like a ceramic bottle and wood barrel. Like this? Yeah, like this. Okay. So in Edoera, all the breweries send sake by wood barrel, like this, by sip. And at the sake, like a liquor shop, they poured the sake into the dokkuri. Yeah, into like a personal container. and bring them to restaurants. Maybe in Tokyo, houses.

8:24When the country opened up at the late Edo era, Meiji era, Western technology was coming into Japan. One of the technologies was a glass bottle. So we installed the glass bottle bottling system. Did you make the glass bottles? Or was it like hired to a different company? Different company. Even the history of Japanese beer, I think that starts a lot of Meiji. They obviously need glass bottles. Maybe, I assume. And we are one of the first ones. And actually glass bottle is quite unnecessary for transporting sake without any preservatives to the consumer market. Oh really? Because even if we blew sake without any preservatives, if we send this sake to a liquor shop, and the liquor shop is rolling sake from barrels to ceramic bottles, it's in open air, right?

9:46So it doesn't make any sense. You can't control it. So bacteria can come in. Yeah, that's right. So these two technologies, the development of that technology, had a very big role of the key conspire expansion. Yeah, so that's a... Before the 1900s, early... Yeah. Because I think most, many of our listeners are in America, and Gekekon I think is one of the biggest sake brands that most Americans know. Yeah. When did, because there's a brewery now, Gekekon has had a brewery in America for... Three... Forty years? Thirty years? No, thirty-five years I think. Okay. Actually that was built when I was born.

10:37Oh, really? Okay. So my father's first job was to look for the place of the US brewery. So we built up the brewery in 1989. Of course, we exported our sake to the US. Actually, the first place was Honolulu for almost 100 years. Was that before World War II? Before World War II. Oh, really? Oh, wow. As Japanese immigrants moved to some places, not just US, but South America, then we export sake from US and some other places. Of course, after World War II, we sipped our sake and the volume was glowing. I think 1980s, yen was very strong. Like Toyota, all the Japanese car factories moved into the US, I think.

11:41And we are actually following them. There's no reason just for following them, but actually timing was the same, because the situation is the same. The main factor is a strong yen. It is much better to do domestically in the US. Was that sake meant to be sold in the US or were you going to sell it back in Japan? Now it only goes to US, Canada, and some of the Latin American countries. But I think we've never slipped back to Japan. Never. But at some time we send US circuit to European countries. Oh, really? And also Korea. Make it in America and then send it back to Korea? It's quite technically, but it's a tariff thing.

12:38Oh, okay. So you had the US and South Korea has like FTA. Like free trade agreement. Yeah, but Japan and Korea don't, so it's easier to... Yeah, that's quite technical. Is that okay to tell everybody? I don't know, but...

13:04If someone is in Korea, everybody knows, so I think that's fine. Okay, that's interesting. So before Junmai was a term used in Japan, and everything you couldn't tell if it was Junmai or Honjozo. Oh, right, right. But in America, you couldn't add brewer's alcohol, so everything was Junmai. I heard that from someone. Is that true? It's also very technical. Because the特定名称 system was built up in 1992 or something. So, in 1991 or 1992, technically or legally, there is no term Junmai. But I think in the market, people used the word Junmai. Yeah. So legally that's right, but I can't say practically it's a little bit different.

14:19Yeah, that makes sense. Interesting. You were born when the year that they opened the brewery in America? Yeah, I was born in 1989. In America? No, no, no, no. In Japan. But your dad was in America? All right. Or kind of coming back and forth? Yeah, just a business trip. Did you always know you were gonna have to be working for DKK? Yes. Okay, and you're okay with that? I guess maybe you can't say no. And obviously now I'm taking that blow, so it wasn't no. but yeah so my father's how can I say then I didn't bring their work back home oh really so so typical Japanese sake breweries family so the house and breweries is you know the same place the same right yeah it's all the mix yeah that's a you You live in the brewery.

15:32That's a very common story. Actually, we are not. We live in the same city, but a little bit far away from it. Especially for children. Yeah. So we only go to the brewery at New Year's party or like Obon special occasions, special events.

16:06Yeah. So I, of course, knew his job and what's happening.

16:17but also he didn't actually he didn't talk to say to say say you have to take my job yeah future never oh really okay the first timing was when I was grown up and like 30, almost 30 years. Yeah. And he suddenly talked about topics. Okay. In the New Year's Day or something. When family's gathering. Yeah. This is like first and last time. Last time. Really? Oh, wow. So before that, mothers or grandfathers, grandmothers sometimes say something like that. Yeah. So until your 30s, you weren't working at GikGikon. You were doing something else? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did a banking. Oh, okay. I did a banking for six years.

17:18When...for my 20 years ages in Tokyo. Okay. That's really different. Yeah, really different. Has it been useful since you've come back to Gekekang? I think so. Yeah? I think so. So... Yeah. I'm the finest guy, so... I don't have any problem in financing something or accounting or something. So for marketing things, branding things, well I started when I came back. I spent already six or seven years in my company. So now I have some experience. So that's fine. How involved are you and your father in the day-to-day brewing? Do you tell the brewing staff, like, I want this kind of flavor for next year?

18:18Or is it a bit more separated? I should say that it's more separated. So without my father and me, day-to-day operation is going on.

18:38We need more of a vision, also direction. So how we are going to go in the future, which direction we are going. That kind of management or how to say it. Looking to the future. Everybody working is working day to day, making sure things are being done. And then you guys are looking far ahead into the future. Like 10 years down the line, 20 years down the line, let's get you done. Now I'm vice president, but I took this role this year actually. Oh, really? Okay. Congratulations. Thank you. Beforehand, we did more in marketing and branding. I was more into each product development. and yeah, the branding, the promotions.

19:43Interesting. Did you have to make sake too or you didn't do that part? I don't do it. I don't do it. I sometimes do. I didn't like it. And I sometimes do walking around the community. Oh, cool. That's interesting. So what is the future of Gekkei-kan? What are you seeing 10 years down the line? What kind of things is Gekkei-kan thinking about or are you thinking about right now for the future of Sake and the future of the public?

20:18There's so many things to say. Yeah, I guess it's a big question. Yes, that is a big question. But, well, just to make it short, so Gekekan Blanc is, whether you like it or not, it's very famous. Yes. And especially it's an alcohol drink, so sometimes people want to choose something special or something other people don't know. or something. But GK Khan is famous, so that's a fact. So I just want to make this how can I say this brand's power much stronger or at least sustain this power. and that's sometimes there's sometimes risk but of course we have a return it means so enough so if people you know sake has a big big options to choose yeah there's so many brands Sometimes the newcomers for sake market, people don't know which is what and which is better or not.

21:50So Gekekan should be always a first choice of people who are entering that market, who are very new to the sake market. and that's the cost performance and you know of course quality is fine. This kind of balance is very important for Gekikan's future. How many brands are under like the Gekikan banner? Is it just Gekikan and then like Gekikan Dai Ginjo, Gekikan Junmai Ginjo or is it like is there Gekikan and there's like something else it's not called Gekekan? Actually that's a that's the point I I'm struggling for years okay but there was too many products from very casual one to very premium one yeah but only under Gekekan brands oh okay so I'm separating that product into some brands and I created some other sub brands But basically, the KKGUN is always a good entry, a very casual one.

22:59So we separate the premium line into whole implants, which is like a gift line or something. And also we have some much, much premium ones, but just forget about that. Okay. And we are trying to build up. Yeah. Another thing we made... So, actually we made Jizake Brewery. We already had a brewery as a company, and a brewery as a place, but we didn't have any plans for that brewery. When you say Jizake Brewery, you mean like... In terms of distribution. Oh, okay. Like local brewery. Yeah, local brewery. And I mean... Jizake distribution is a modern distribution. Modern means sake distribution to supermarkets.

24:13It's quite different, right? Yes. We didn't have any access to jizake distribution. That's a little bit difficult to explain. So we made another brewery, another brand, and we are trying to expand. And that's in Fushimi? In Fushimi. Oh, cool. Oh, interesting. So it's kind of like you made a brewery that is going back to like pre-Meiji, Gekke, kind of very local, not so big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Brand is different. What's the brand called? Jukoku. Jukoku. The company is Matsuyama Shuzo. Oh, okay. And yeah, it's still very small. Only a few people work. Okay. Yeah. And it's a completely different company.

25:07It's a subsidiary company. Oh, I see. Okay.

25:13I made it. That was your idea.

25:23Jukoku is focusing on jizake distribution, which means gekeikans don't care about that. You don't have to think about that. So, Gekiikan's brands in Kakutenyakana. So, the definition was clear. Yeah. Because before that, everything was competing with everything else. Yeah. So, premium lines and the Jisaki lines and also... So, we also made a sub-brand of Gekiikan, which is Gekiikan Studio. Gekiikan Studio.

26:02It's experimental line. Yeah. Is it made at the same factory with the same... Actually, it's made at the same factory. I mean, Geki-kan. Made in Geki-kan. And the concept is...

26:25So, Geekykan's sake is just everywhere, even in convenience store. Yeah. So you need... How can I say... So it takes so long time to develop that kind of product.

26:47Which... How can I say... There are so many conditions of preserving time or... like a storage condition. Oh, yeah. So many variables. So many variables. And we need... how can I say... And of course storage is... at room temperature. Usually, like nice premium sake must be storage in the refrigerator. But in communist industries, there's no space for sake. So that condition, we have so many limitations for product development, even though we have ability or capacity of making something very other. Because anything Gekkekan makes has to be able to be in all of those places. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in convenience stores, all the sake is under, you know, like bright lights and something.

28:04It's not good for sake conditions actually. But we have to, so our sake must be very tough. So the tough sake needs some, you know, limitation. Yeah, it's limited, it can't be super delicate, it can't be very sensitive to temperature. Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, thank you. So without any limitation, we just wanted to make something fun. Okay, basically ignore getgeikan, don't think about selling to konbini, don't think about selling to supermarkets. It's just what do we want to make, what might be fun or experimental. Yeah. Oh, cool. And in history, as I've talked, we have strengths in research.

28:54Still we are hiring young, smart researchers, scientists yearly. Our research team is very young.

29:11They have a very nice idea of new sake or the sake of the future.

29:22We just want to try something new, something challenging for current limitation or just challenge for making Saki's future. Maybe one or two projects in a year. How are those going? It's nice. We just launched the seventh project. Project six. Project 6? Project 6? Yeah, 7 is coming. 6 project. That's actually very nice. What was it? 6th one is... From 4 to 6, my hidden theme is health. Health? Okay. And so sixth one is a base sake is a sake without any sugar. So zero sugar. Okay. So super dry. Super, super dry sake. Super, super dry sake doesn't have so much flavor. Yeah. It's not a lot. It's really light, right?

30:34Very light. Very light. I think that's technically the lightest. Yeah.

30:42But too light. So we put that sake, we aged that sake in a barrel. Okay. And we tested some barrels, but American oak, American oak. American oak, okay. And cedar. And cedar. Japanese cedar, the sugi. It's a mix of. Interesting. The barrel was a mix of it? Or were you putting like wood in? Oh, really? No, no, no. You can't wood it in. Yeah. This is actually interesting. How can I say it? So, so, barrel has two caps. Yeah. Yeah, on the top and bottom. Top and bottom. Yeah. And the side is the staves. Yeah. That side is oak. Okay. And top and bottom is a cigar. Interesting. Okay. Wait, can you still call that sake?