Kanpai Revisited: Catching up with Tom Wilson

0:01Hello and thank you for joining us for another episode of Sake On Air. Just before we get started with the show, I'd like to share a special announcement from JSS. On July 23rd, JSS is hosting a Rakugo performance at the Information Center. The charming and talented Yusuke Kokonuke, one of the rising stars of the Rakugo world, will be giving two live performances, one in English and one in Japanese. We'll also enjoy sake, shochu, and cheese after the Raku performances. We hope you can join us. For more information and tickets, please go to jss-event16.ptx.com or click the link in the description.

0:47Now, on with the show!

0:53the people of sake actually brought me into sake back in 1988 this place was actually on the main drag at first it was kind of soy sauce it was miso to the point where it actually changed my life new year's day 1989 not just sake as a beverage but all the culture and history

1:14Cindy Bissig:Welcome back and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sake on Air, the world's first podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverage that is sake, shochu and of course abamori. My name is Cindy and today we have a special guest host with us. It's Julian Hausman. Hello, Julian. Hi, how are you? And I'm good. And we're recording actually from Sake House in Osaka instead of our normal home base, which is JSS Information Center in the heart of Tokyo. We have Julian with us here because we do have a returnee injury guest. We had him with us before. I'm talking about Tom Wilson from Kanpai in London.

2:05Hi there. Hello. Thank you for having me.

2:08Cindy Bissig:Thank you for joining us again. Last time you were here you were actually not a solo guest, we had you with Grégoire Boeuf as part of our Future of Sake and it's apparently already four years ago so I know a lot of things have happened in between. Definitely yeah, a lot in the last four years. Yeah so I'm excited to poke you a little bit because for one maybe we can start you telling our new listeners, people who don't know exactly what you're doing, a little bit about yourself and your brewery and then maybe afterwards we talk a bit about what you're doing in Japan. Sure, sounds good. I'll do a brief recap.

2:46Thank you. So my wife Lucy and I started Kampai London Crafts Sake in 2016 officially and then secured the first brewing license for sake in the UK early 2017. And we've kind of gone through about four renditions, I would say, since then. multiple different brewing sites and just kind of gradually organically evolving so we're kind of yeah camp high 4.0 currently um but fundamentally we started off pretty much as like a focus on being a jimmy shoe producer in london we originally started in a borough in i guess southeast london called Peckham. The brewery itself was just kind of five minutes up the road from where we were living at the time.

3:41And it was like a very cool bohemian hipster neighborhood. And it really fitted exactly what we were doing. So it originally started as kind of like a bit of a garage style setup that then quickly evolved into us opening what was then Europe's first Sake Taproom in a second site. And we had kind of brewery at the bottom and the tap room or the mezzanine above the brewery. We're in that site for five, six years. And then last year, no, 2023, we up sticks and migrated everything, because at that time we ended up being split over about four different leases. It was a bit disparate kind of around Pekin.

4:27And we up sticks and moved everything into central London zone one, about two blocks back from Tower Bridge, just a short walk from London Bridge Station, into kind of like a double arch, railway arch set up on the famous Berlmansey Beer Mart, which is like a long strip of, it's like a mile long, about 25 beer brewery tap rooms and things like that. We sat up there and took over that site. It was a completely bare site. We built the whole thing out from scratch, built a real made-for-measure, kind of our ideal brewery setup. And then a brand new taproom visitor center and a mezzanine that kind of straddles the brewery and the taproom space with a glass viewing platform down into the brewery.

5:20obviously like a lot of what we do is really engaging with people and customers and education around sake a lot of events alone visiting sake brewers from Japan and hosting all kinds of people but of course yeah bringing lots of local London sake yeah how many how many taps have you got going on. So we have 10 draft taps, eight of which are always sake and two of which are beer. So we kind of flip things on its head a little bit. And then we have approximately 30, 35 different sake and bottled, like constantly rotating lists. From Japan. So maybe about 10 from us, 25 from Japan. And then everything else on the menu is Japanese.

6:12So shochu, awamori, there's like rums, gin, bockers, whiskeys, like all Japanese. Yeah, a bit of fun.

6:22Cindy Bissig:So I remember when you were with us last time, you were saying you were just kind of mid-pandemic buying everything new, getting all the machinery that you wanted, and then you literally just uprooted everything, rebuilt in a new location, which is obviously attracting a lot more footfall, I assume so what has been the biggest difference between your previous brewery and where you are now? So when it comes to pure production and brewing we're in a kind of like I said a made-for-measure situation now so everything's kind of laid out and positioned and yeah much more suited to what we're doing all the things we've kind of learned over the years setting it up really in the best way we can whereas the previous site it was kind of us having to make do with um i guess the way that the site was already laid out and um yeah just wasn't it wasn't kind of perfect this is as close to perfect as we can get in this location um and then we moved over majority of our kind of original equipment, the equipment we were using at the time, and then plugged in a few additional bits.

7:42We weren't trying to kind of create a new brewery, we were trying to create an improved version of the existing brewery. And then the third thing that's, I guess, like a great kind of situation to the environment there, is the previous site in Peckham was kind of more like a warehouse and we were really subjected to huge range of temperature fluctuations so we get like back in the brewery we get down to about minus four in the winter and we get into kind of plus 35 degrees in the summer kind of thing so it actually kind of squeezed our brewing season a little bit you know just had certain challenges around that whereas now we're in an arch which are kind of huge Victorian brick structures that the temperature is super stable and the brewery part is at the back so we're we're not really subjected to as much of a temperature fluctuation and then we've been able to put in like AC and cooling and a big cold brewing and stuff like that so our brewing season's now been extended so we've kind of got like a 10 month brewer season which is great.

8:50How many brewers do you have? So there's including myself there's kind of two and a half of us. I'm the half just because I'm having to the bigger we get unfortunately the less hands on I can be day-to-day production and I'm running the business and there's a lot going wrong so yeah. So those two of the other two guys that you have brewing with you I'm guessing you trained them up. So it's kind of a combination really. So obviously there's X amount of training and continuous evolution. For the current team, we've got Natalie from Australia, and she'd done the brewing season in Japan, making sake, certain other experiences with wine production, bringing her own knowledge.

9:37Natalie was our very first employee, been working with us for over six years. Unfortunately, we're losing that today. so we're in the current process of bringing a new member on board over the summer so we've got like some intensive training going to happen in the next couple of months to kick things off for September and then we've got Radim he's Czech and history in kind of beer cider he's an avid sake home brewer he's married to a Japanese lady, spends a lot of time in Okuyama and yeah, it's just kind of it's a great team because obviously everyone, all of us are obsessed with sake but we're bringing other experiences and other knowledge which is actually what we're really kind of looking for, we don't want necessarily too much pure sake influence we're kind of looking for a slight kind of alternative western influence as well so for anyone who hasn't had the pleasure

10:45Cindy Bissig:of drinking your sake, what kind of sake do you make? We make all sorts of sake so we're constantly trying to rein ourselves in because it's like a kid in the candy shop we've got to do with sake as we all know the sky's the limit, the potential is unlimited but we generally have the majority of the range is junmai generally tokodatsu junmai some junmai iniguri and junmai ginjo we do kind of one or two tanks of our grand crew junmai daiginjo per year and then we have two different honjozos tokodatsu honjozo and then we that's kind of our I guess what's more in kind of the classic Japanese realm and then we have kind of the more contemporary other stuff which hopefully we're going to try one in a little bit.

11:42We do kind of a fair amount of different aged barrel aged sakes, a couple of different fruit sakes and we do two different white koji sakes as well. one that's using the glory and one that's using traditional champagne method in bottle sparkling so that's some fun stuff yeah

12:01Cindy Bissig:what's the most popular I mean is there anything that people go like oh my god we love it and maybe not so much well hopefully most of it people love but we're always kind of strike a balance and our bread and butter is our toko betti jamao that's what that's what kind of it's what we started with kind of what we're known for it probably makes up about 30 percent of our production that's what it's what keeps the lights on um and that sort of affords us to be able to do stuff that really like the avant-garde stuff or the more premium really doesn't make us money but it helps it helps market helps with the brand it helps also show what we can do um so things like our june my Daikin Joe and some of the barrel aged and things like that aren't necessarily money makers but they're great to make and fun to show off.

12:56How much of what you make makes it into bottles? Is it really starting to tap and then you see how it goes and then successful put it in bottles? That's a great question. Bottles have always been, I guess, the first fundamental focus and then we've actually kind of backworked it from there. So let's put it this way. unless something's like a true experimental brew, like the first time we've ever done something like a small little brew that's a trial, unless it's that, so we're going to part that, unless it's that, everything else is a brew to the end bottle, and then the Namagenshu would basically carve off some of that for draft.

13:35That's kind of how it works, but basically 90 % of what we're producing that ends up on draft was carved off a batch that was already destined for bottling.

13:46Cindy Bissig:Interesting. And then obviously you also have quite a couple of bottles who are award winning. Yeah. We've had a few over the year gradually kind of creeped up and had some nice awards. Yeah, very happy. And I believe you brought a bottle for us here today. All the way from London to Osaka. We've got a real funny one and we don't like this is a treat for me I've not even tried this for a while because none of this really exists anymore this is one of our aged sake and basically we're constantly aging say two or three different sake in barrel so say at the moment at the brewery I think we've got like a white burgundy oak, there's a red burgundy oak and there's a sherry pass different sakis things like that we only release in bottle one of the age sakis at any moment in time and the next one doesn't get released until this one's then gone this is from last year so it's actually maybe two releases ago and we're fortunate enough to win gold medal in the IWC last year for the sake and there was probably I don't know like 50 % of that sake left when we received gold and then obviously like overnight just vanished.

15:09So I managed to tuck one away. And this is, yeah, this is pretty much the only one I've got.

15:16Cindy Bissig:And it's very cool. And I mean, people can obviously not see this, but it's almost like a whole Cheecher tea color. Yeah, we can see it's kind of cloudy. Is it actually cloudy or is it just greenish? Yeah, so obviously I've dragged this from Nara today in my bag. So basically, if this is fully settled out, which I kind of had done is a very fine kind of film sediment that's in there because when we, this has been aged in this is actually a Kijou Shu it's been aged in red verging the oak for two years, this was aged back in so the last part of fermentation for the Kijou Shu was 2021 and then it was in barrel for two years and then released after bonding, correct yeah as an ambient nanazak here sitting at average temperature of about 20 degrees for two years.

16:07And then pulled out a barrel, not filtered, basically just like strained off, and then bottled. We do a slight cut with filtered water to reduce the ADV. Because when we go into a barrel, we're sitting at like 21 % ADV. And then this is cut down to 18.5, bottled, pasteurized. and then this was rested for about the time prior to release about 6-7 months in glass and then released and this has now been in glass for like 18 months 2 years, that is a long time I'm curious to see particularly namazake in barrel

16:44Cindy Bissig:and I mean this is labeled as 2021 our consideration for the vintage is the last point of fermentation obviously it's a kijo shoe this was made over a fair amount of time So this, in theory, started in 2020, came out of tank after the Kyujo element in 2021, and then went into Baron in 2021. So that's the date. And now made it all the way to Osaka in 2025. Yes. So should we try it? Absolutely. Yeah.

17:19I'll let you taste it and then we can discuss the stats because it's...

17:25Cindy Bissig:That's a very generous pour. Wow, we're here to enjoy it, right? That's great. I'll let you taste it first and then we can discuss what's on the label.

17:40Cindy Bissig:You're happy faces. I'm glad you're all smart. Happy faces.

17:48That's really interesting. It's very intense. Yeah. it's a big sac in it

17:54Cindy Bissig:so what did you say the alcohol was on this? so this is 18.5 but it doesn't feel 18.5 it's very smooth big mouth feel really rounded it's not got any kind of sharp edges but it's it's quite boozy but it's high everything super high acidity high alcohol and high residual sugar and all these volume knobs turned up help balance each other out Do you know, it almost tastes like a cocktail. Yeah, it could be. You know, I was in a bar recently and I got something that tasted a bit like this with the big black eyes in it, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This actually, if you wouldn't know this is sake, you could think this is actually something else that's made into this beverage.

18:36You could think it's got all these characteristics. It's like, it's got like sherry characteristics. It's got elements of kind of, like the orange element for like an old fashioned. Yeah. because it's got that slight citrus to it. But it's obviously got like shiitake and soy notes and all of this kind of going on. But yeah, it's big. There's a lot. I also get like dark berries on this one. But yeah, the Nihon Shudo, the Sakamoto value on this. Any thoughts?

19:09Cindy Bissig:That's a very brr kind of question. it's got to be in the minus tens, minus fifties, forties, fifties 56, minus 56 yeah it's a monster alright and do you, are you keep making these? I mean is this something that's more on your continuous no so we, all our ASACs are fundamentally one offs and we're kind of brewing something potentially in the same round, aging it in maybe a slightly different way each time. So it's not, there's never kind of, oh, that one was great, let's make that exact thing again. They're all just one snapshot in time. Yeah. I'm a bit sad, because this is so delicious I want to drink it again.

20:00Cindy Bissig:I mean, I was like, you should get your hands on it, but people can't get their hands on it. Of course, but all of our age sacks, so they all come under the same label so purer is the label and then we do a strikethrough which is the vintage and kind of same stuff this one says 2021 barrel kijoshu recent release was like 22 barrel yamaha and then there's like a 23 double barrel jama and something like that so they're all kind of within the same realm and then if you don't mind me asking i mean what's this uh 500 mil that's a 375 and then like Like how much... Way too cheap. Have people... Way too cheap.

20:41They're always too cheap, actually. So this is what I was saying before. We make these kind of sakes to have fun, show off some potential, but they're priced to be drunk. They're not priced to be either kind of kept on the shelf. For us, worst case scenario is we end up sitting on a sake and don't sell it. We're making a sake to go out in the world, but the second worst case scenario is someone buys it, they pay the price for it they treasure it too much so they don't open it, you want to price up something so that people not only buy it they open it and they share it and as many people as possible drink it so this in British pounds was only priced at£28 a month

21:26Cindy Bissig:sorry I'm laughing a little bit I'm trying to do math in my head right now, I'm not good with pounds what's that in the end? oh not much how much? 5 ,000 yen 5 ,000, 6 ,000 yen maybe? Oh really? Yeah That's very good and I mean the other thing is like and we were talking about yen but in Europe everything has tax added to it so if you have any product that comes from Japan it will already be within the 40, 50 pounds price range anyway so for you to come in with something like this at that price range is kind of a little bit insane to be honest but lucky Londoners I'm glad you think so I do So, I mean, as we mentioned we're here in Osaka, so we're all gathered here in the Kansai region, so what brings to the Kansai region?

22:16Yes, we're doing a bit of a fun project where it's been on the cards for about 12 months back and forth, a bit of a discussion we basically wanted to build out a couple of collaborations with Japanese sake breweries trying to bridge the gap a little bit better between international sake and Japanese sake. So I'm out here actually brewing with a taro sake brewery in Nara called Choriyo Shuzo. And they've been around, we were kind of discussing before, they're quite young for Nara. Bearing in mind it's kind of the birthplace of sake as we know it. So at least kind of 1 ,100-year history or so. They've been around for about 60 years, a little bit more maybe.

23:07And they're actually the first sake brewery to bottle Tarazake. That was kind of their... Okay. So sake flavoured in cedarwood, first kind of brewery to put it in glass. That's kind of their claim to fame. and an amazing group of brewers and individuals there that we've known for quite some time. And yeah, we're out here making a collaborative sake that we've been planning, working out the recipe for the last kind of few months. And we're basically brewing Omachi.

23:43It's going to be Junmai, Tokabetsu Junmai. We haven't kind of fleshed all that out at the moment. But it's going to be kind of a high acid, interesting kind of modern style sake. Quite gutsy, like bubhamami. Yeah. When you say collaborative, like what's the collaboration like?

24:06Cindy Bissig:I mean, how involved are you in shaping the actual taste or brewing or anything? Yeah, so we're a big part of kind of steering the direction of what we really wanted the final sake to be like. and then working together to kind of build out that framework and pick and choose the ingredients, the koji tin, the yeast. And then I'm here, yeah, making it with them. So, yeah, we're just spending a lot of money making koji. It's been good fun. And, yeah, there's basically two, three brewers from their side and then myself. And then we're working together. and then is it like, hey, are you working together?

24:47I think I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting. But no, there's a good amount of work on both sides. But yeah, they're definitely using me, which is nice.