On Location at the Kokushu Fair 2025 (Part 2)

0:02The people of sake actually brought me into sake. Back in 1988 this place was actually in Gimza on the main drag. At first it was kind of soy sauce, it was miso. To the point where it actually changed my life. New Year's Day 1989. Not just sake as a beverage but all the culture and history. you. Hello, and thank you for tuning in to this episode of Sake on Air. This episode is a continuation from last week and contains more interviews from our time on the floor at the Japan Sake and Shochu Fair 2025. We talked to Oliver Chan, founder of Sakeboto Hong Kong, Keith Norum of Masumi Sake fame, one of Chris's former students who is involved with the Taiwan Sake and Shochu Research Association, and Mika Eoka, who has been pioneering sake promotion in India.

0:50I hope you enjoy the show. Ah, before we start the show today, I want to remind everybody that Sake Day is coming up on October 1st. There's lots of events around the world, but many are happening in Japan. For more information on events in Japan, you can check out kanpai-sake.jp. I'll put that information in the show notes as well. Now, for real, let's get on with the show. Just have a look around, see if we can find anyone else I know. Hey, Chris. How are you doing? How are you doing? How are you doing, how are you doing? How are you doing, how are you doing? So, introduce yourself. Yeah, I'm Oliver, one of the sake educators from Hong Kong.

1:28Yeah. And I'm also a sake importer. And I'm actually writing a book about Japanese sake. So it's going to be released next month in Hong Kong. Oh, yeah. So it's a Chinese version. The book is about introducing some special sake using Kimoto, Yamaha, or Boramoto or Michimoto. Oh, right. Hardcore. Yeah, it's going to publish next month. Congratulations. So that will be available in all good bookstores, online, Amazon? Yeah, we plan to put it on Amazon, but first I will print it out. There's a book fair in Hong Kong next month, so I'm going to publish it in the book fair. Yeah, at the same time I will try to like do a lot of promote of my book to people who can read Chinese Yeah, yeah, that's my point and it will put it on Amazon or anywhere online online bookstore.

2:24So what was the inspiration for writing the book? Wow, that's a really long story. I'm trying to do some It's certainly different. We made a lot of events. But sometimes when we go to the sake brewery, it's very difficult to get the knowledge or the history. I try to document everything. I try to document some story about sake kura as much as possible. But right now, I think there are a lot of sake 101 or sake for beginners. I try to make some specific topic. So I just picked that story. be part of my book. Yeah, that's how it is. Telling new stories is a great way to get more people interested in sake.

3:12Yeah, when I try to go through what sake breweries I visited, most of them are using Yamaha Kimoto or Michimoto. Ah, okay. So that's why I picked them. That's kind of, I think that's my destiny. So I picked this topic. Ah, so it's not that you plan necessarily to do Yamaha. Yamaha Kimoto Bodai Moto you just realized yeah actually this is the central theme this should be the central theme of the book. So who's your audience? I guess it's more advanced uh maybe that's not the right word more seasoned sake drinkers yeah yeah exactly yeah kind of some with some sake knowledge yeah yeah um of course at the beginning I would try to like introduce do some basic sake knowledge but and I will try to use our old structure every brewery into three parts first is about the local culture about the prefecture something happening near the sake guru and then I will introduce a brewery's background and then at the end the technical part so I think around 50 % would be related to some basic second knowledge and some something cultural related things and then the other part would be some very technical Sakagura knowledge.

4:28Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is, I think it would be a volume one because I only include the eight Sakagura in the book. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I actually, in the book I try to develop some theory to help people to understand very quick and you know quick quick way yeah so yeah we'll see yeah I hope it really helped. And when you're not writing of course writing is not your like your day job as it as it was maybe it was during this writing period but like what do you what you what you normally do? Oh what's your main kind of I am an accountant and something related to IT. Yeah. IT technology, yeah.

5:14And how did you discover sake? How did sake find you? Well, it's just like, you know, like Hong Kong people travel a lot to Japan. Yeah. So I think around 10 years ago, I went to a izakaya and I tasted kajenomori. And then I was inspired by the fresh, a little bit frizzy, very alive flavor from Kajanwari. And it just gave me, like, I don't know how to say, like, suddenly this inspired me like a dream, like a spark in my head. And then I started the journey to Saku.

5:57and you so you you you're an accountant and then you have like another like a sake yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm an accountant yeah but at the same time try to develop some at the beginning is just kind of my leisure kind of my hobbies like drinking eating but at the end I think I wanted to promote it to my friend. And then I started to have my shop. At the beginning, it was just like a retail shop. And then during the COVID-19, Hong Kong's sake market goes up a lot. And then I started to be an importer and then become an educator. And then right now, sometimes I organize a sake tour to the different sake brewery.

6:42So it's not only drinking, but also really see what's happening in the sake gura and culture. I love the way you started that off with, it's not only drinking. God forbid we would think it was only drinking. It's not only drinking. But you like to drink sake as well, obviously. And an event like this gives you an opportunity to taste so many different sake from all over Japan, from breweries that you maybe never kind of, I mean, I certainly often find breweries that I didn't even know existed when I come to this event. What are your highlights on this particular? Wow, the highlight, I would say, please try some sparkling sake.

7:26So there's a whole booth for awasake, right? I think there's a booth for awasake. Yeah. So I think awasake, I think Sakura-san spent quite a long time studying how to make the perfect sparkling sake. So it's so different. I think they get some idea from champagne. Sure. Yeah. And then the thing is, the method they make, although it looks like the same, but the least portion and the fermentation are totally different. Yes. So they spent quite a long time to understand how to make a refined bubble sparkling sake with good flavor. And I definitely think they're developing more different kind of flavor.

8:18Like some of them are very sour, dry, sweet. Oh, yeah, definitely. And I wish more people to enjoy sparkling sake. Yeah, I had a sparkling from Saitama. Takizawa, their Hitotsuji sparkling is just out of this world. So much complexity and the lovely toffee notes and it's sweet but it's got a nice balance of acidity as well, a bit of umami. And I'm not a big sparkling fan. Well, I wasn't originally a big sparkling fan but it's growing on me as a category. I think sparkling sake is kind of quite unique flavor. like you can smell it, steam it right, a little bit floral. For sake, right? Yeah, yes.

9:03I feel it's more unique for sake than wine. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think so. You get a lot more different expressions, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is why I think the future of sparkling sake is maybe the future of sake to an extent. I mean, yeah, yeah. It's an easy... We have the same form. We have the same form. We're on the same page there. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's always nice to meet you, Ollie, and I'll let you go off and enjoy the rest of the event. there's lots of different sake to find, discover. Yeah, sure, sure. So enjoy, and I'll see you again soon. Okay, see you again. Thank you.

9:37Oh, Frank, look, there's someone we absolutely must chat to. Hang on a second. I'll just let you hear his voice first, and some listeners might recognize. Hey there. Hey there. What are you guys doing here? Wow, amazing. Have you guessed who it is yet? Go on. Let him know. All right. This is Keith Norum from the venerable old Masumi Brewery, plus the Japan Sake and Shochu Makers Association. Yes. So my sake fair adventure is actually helping out with the JSS, doing some things for any random non-Japanese people might wander by and need a little help with what sake is and how to drink it. And we're in the, literally it says up there, the English information desk.

10:24Exactly. You are the master of the English information desk. Absolutely. Have you had many... I even have an armband. You have an armband. I have an armband that says, here it goes, English. I think they were worried that if I didn't have this band on, they wouldn't know that I spoke English, which is probably... You be careful you don't forget to take that off when you're walking around later. I find myself at Osaka Station. get arrested arrested some weird foreigner well well then i'll talk to them about sake you know yeah no actually that would be a good opportunity so i'm we're in the english information desk basically it's sort of the place to come if you've not had sake before if you're not really sure what you've stumbled into what this event is all about and there's actually a really cool little sake tasting competition that you can challenge over there the blind tasting here yes you taste three sake and then you have to match with basically the one two three and a b c and then you have to match it to the same sake yeah which is actually as hard as it sounds it sounds so easy i know you know i i went in there with well i didn't go in there with a lot of confidence to be quite honest i completely messed it up i i got one of them right and then i couldn't quite differentiate between these two very subtle ginjo sake but it's difficult they're in plastic cups I'm going to blame the equipment.

11:47I'm going to blame the excuses. Yeah, prepare the excuses. But it's a very fun little game that you can do when you arrive here. It is pretty tough, especially if you've never had sake before. And then you can kind of taste various different sake. You have some little sake tasting sets, right? Right. Well, basically, we have the game, which honestly, up till now, today, more Japanese people have played the blind tasting game than non-Japanese people. Really? And so it is fun. Yeah. Oh, it is fun for sure. It doesn't matter what language you speak. No. It's still fun. No, it's very true. It translates the language.

12:21On this side, actually, what we're doing is introducing the basics by giving people a chance to taste basically four representatives of the four typical kinds of sake. Right. And we always add the caveat that obviously there are not just four kinds of sake. Yes. That's silly. Yeah. But at least it gives them some idea. Okay, I can look for these things. Yeah. And I can either find them or not find them. And you're not wrong either way. Right? And it kind of gives you a little bit of structure. Like an axis. All of this sake here. Bounce off of, right? Right. You have at least some kind of base to work with when you go to all of these wonderful...

13:02Which I think is needed, right? Because if you come into sake and you've never really tasted that many sake before, it can be a bit overwhelming. Especially right now with so much variety. You can see brewers experimenting with all different kinds of styles and things. And then there's a lot of literature here that people can pick up if they want. I mean, we don't want to bury them with literature right away. It's better to focus on the thing itself, because you've got a lot of it. Other than that, what are the things that we do? So basically it's like a light kind of sake, which we call Soshu.

13:34Then we have... So we've got from top left. So we have... Okay, you've done it this way. Yeah, so we've done it that way sort of partly because it's one of the typical ways that it is done. You've got the fruity-ish thing, and then you've got things that are light and smooth, and then full-bodied, and then mature. Nice. So it is basically, it is the same. It's the four types. Kinshu, Soxhu, Jinshu, Juxxhu. Exactly. It's that same. And so representing those different types, we've got... Oh, we've got some lovely things. Well, we can go from this end. Yeah. You've got Hassen and they have something of summer Ginjo.

14:11It's super nice, super summery, real light, it's really inviting, lovely thing, super good fruit. And it pops when you open it. They've got some really nice residual effervescence. It's not sparkling but it's got effervescence so it's perfect for summer. They tend to make quite light sake because they're on a port, aren't they? And then Ichizuchi, I always get that wrong. Ichizuchi. Say that three times and not mess it up. I can't do it. The stone hammer. Yes, exactly. Cool name. It's a great name for a socket that's actually smooth and light. I try. It sounds like it would just knock your head off, right?

14:49It's a stone hammer, right? But no, it's super light. And one of the things that we try to point out is people often talk about, oh, light equals dry, or light equals something like tanne karakuchi, something like that. And it doesn't have to be that way. They can be light and still have flavor. It still has a lot of notes in the mouth. Yeah. So it doesn't just dry out your mouth or something like that. No, I can clean that. It's got plenty of that. Yeah. And then for what we call the rich full-bodied, we got one from Nagano. Right. This is a wonderful one down in Kiso. The Kiso Valley is super famous for a beautiful walk through the old Pulse Road towns and all that.

15:29And Kisoji does this one with Nagano rice. It's up and coming. It is the up-and-coming sake rice from Nagano, Sankei Nishiki. Oh, yes. It's a wonderful, and it actually shows the character of the rice. Very full-bodied, but not particularly what you say. It doesn't hang with you, right? It's not cloying. It's very soft. Yeah, it's soft. It fills your mouth, but then it goes away unless you enjoy whatever you're eating. Yeah, I love Sankei Nishiki. That's a great act. Great, it is great. It also won some things in the international... Yeah, it's got an IWC sticker on there, silver. IWC. And then going from matured we have Gokyo.

16:07Gokyo, yeah, Yamaguchi. And this one they do in a cave, like literally it's cave aged. Oh really? It's not refrigerator aged. I didn't know they were doing cave aged. Yeah, it's a cave aged product and it tastes so balanced for a mature sake. It's got all that mildness, roundness, all of the sharp edges have gone away. You've got the usual caramely accents and thank goodness it doesn't taste like it was aged in a man cave right yes it has all of the uh sort of everything comes together without too much bitter presumably the cave just provides the perfect temperature you know exactly and that one's like heisei 18.

16:47well what is that he say 18. heisei 18 so that's like why i mean that's that's like 19 years ago So that's a good age subject. And so is this the first time you've been representing JSS? No, last year I helped in Tokyo. Because I bumped into you last year as well. And that was the first time I kind of stepped out of the Masumi role. And I'm doing that a bit more these days. Masumi finally has another fellow who's doing international sales, which is great. His name's Hugo and he's doing very well, which also gives me the opportunity to kind of broaden a little bit and do some other things so I'm very happy to work for the second time this year.

17:26How do you feel about the, obviously it might just be one year, a special thing that they're doing this event in Onsaka, but have you noticed anything that's maybe better or worse? Well you know we've been talking about that all morning and one thing that it seems like pretty much everybody agrees to get this kind of event going in a new location is a work that takes several years you're really in a commit to doing it in Osaka yeah you're not going to do it one time and expect the same amount of participation it just doesn't make sense it won't happen so you can feel it there's less action here there's less people here yes but that's also because this venue is bigger.

18:11It's bigger, yeah. A lot bigger. So you have maybe somewhat fewer people, but a lot bigger space. Yeah. And that's going to make it feel the same way. So maybe Tokyo plus Osaka from now on. Right. Which seems like a sensible way. The other thing is we were all talking about this corner of it is for people who are not Japanese. Yes. And it's hard to know exactly how to appeal or how to catch their eyes. You can't really advertise overseas because nobody's going to plan a trip to Japan just to come to a sake pair unless they're total maniacs. And so we're at the expo but you can't actually advertise at the expo.

18:51It's against the rules. You cannot do it. So even though we're next to the expo, there's no connection. People won't sort of automatically wander over here because they're at the expo. That won't happen. So we got to thinking probably the best way to do it, if you want people who are not living in Japan, like full time, you know, Japanese living people, is put a lot of information where tourists are going to be. Absolutely. Hotels around the station, restaurants, around the transports, restaurants, put a lot of information there. Post information. And as long as it's there and they notice it, you know, Sometimes you end up with a day you don't know what to do in Tokyo.

19:30You go, gee, what do we do today? Hey, let's go to the sake. It's a big job. And it requires a significant amount of investment, which is why, like you said, it might take a few years, a bit of a learning curve to kind of get the hang of bringing... But I've seen a few non-Japanese, you know, let's call them tourists, like walking around. They might not be tourists, but just assume they're tourists. I've seen a few walking around and like ratio wise it doesn't seem that different from the Tokyo one. The Tokyo one doesn't pull in a huge amount. I mean you do tend to just get the you know the English speakers who live here local maybe.

20:12Interesting to see kind of how this one works out. What's your highlights? Have you had a chance to go around and try other prefectures? I have not. My highlight at this point because I have sort of been stationed here most of the time. is to, I went to the shochu, what do they call it? I mean, there's a cocktail in there. Yeah, the other world over there. The other world, yeah. I went over there just before this interview, actually. Yeah, yeah. And that was my highlight, because I don't get to drink shochu so much. Right. And having all that great shochu and actually people there to explain it was the highlight.

20:47But it did light me up a bit. Do Masamu have a shochu? Should they do, don't they? We do. Yeah, you have that. That's the thing. We have the one that is, it's called Kassetori. So we make it directly from the kasu. And it literally is not the same as rice shochu. That's something we always try to remind people of. Because to make a shochu based on rice as the raw ingredient, the process is quite different than taking kasu. Kasu essentially is the raw ingredient. So it's a different thing. And it's a great style of shochu. It's very clean, good for mixing. but we only make it because we make sake and we have all that katsu and it's a kind of nice way to to make sure that the circle is completely closed that you don't waste a single thing but other than that i mean i'm a total shochu newbie so i enjoyed learning a little bit count myself in the same kind of category you try any of the cocktails you just tried the not today but i'm here tomorrow too so that's on my agenda we try together we try some cocktails together.

21:50There you go, alright. It's a date then. Great chatting to you as always, Keith. Good running into it. Good luck with the rest of the event. Thanks so much. Enchanting foreign visitors and introducing them into the world of sake. You're doing a great job. Chris, thanks for coming over. Pleasure is all out. See you again soon. So we just had some sake at the Totori booth and then we got talking to a few brewers and then i noticed another face which i recognized and uh it's a vivian yeah one of my uh students one of students but one of the students of jss this year's jss sake academy yeah yeah nice to see you again yeah nice to see you again and you're here with your friend toko who's based in tokyo yes but always also taiwanese yeah yeah and you both love sake you What do you think about this event?

22:47I think this one should be the biggest Sake event in Japan. Yeah, so we can see a lot of different Sake because in Taiwan, the important they choose the Sake just like the Taiwanese flavor. But I can try a lot of different types here. Yeah. So you get an idea of what will go best with Taiwanese food? Not necessarily. Because Taiwanese people love the sweeter and the fruity type. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, but I can try more like dry type or the full body. I understand. So normally there's like not much choice in Taiwan. Yeah, yeah. It's just sweet or fruity. We have a lot of choice, but they have the same type.

23:40I see. Yeah. So you tried the dry type? Yeah. Do you like the dry type? Yeah, very nice. And especially for the aging sake. Yeah. Tell us about what you're doing. So you're trying to spread the love about sake in Taiwan, trying to develop the sake industry in Taiwan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've given me this pamphlet for a new association. Tell me about this new association. Yeah, I think you'll find a lot of Taiwanese people come to this event. So actually Taiwanese people very love sake, but originally people just think about, oh this sake is sweet or dry, and basically Taiwanese people learn sake from SSI.

24:28But we think about sake as more complex, and actually brewing is a science. yeah so that's why we have this one is research association because we much we want to know the new technique about sake we know sake is just it's not just a just a coaching we have a lot of culture history and tradition cool and nice chatting to you Vivian nice to bump into you thank you I'll let you go off and enjoy some more of the sake before the event finishes Yeah, thank you.

25:09I'm here at the end of this afternoon session. I found another friend of mine, Mika Eoka, who has told me that she's very, very active at the moment in India. So I thought maybe we could learn a bit more about what she's up to in India. Nice to see you again, Mika. Again? Yes, good. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're what you're doing in India. Okay I'm back in the first Indian defense and WSAT Yeah, India only one first and only one WSAT teacher in India So my program I'm doing the promoting circuit and then starting from then 2019 currently working for 17 different breweries and 30 brands and going to India but India is very very very difficult still high barrier because the 150 % tax, custom tax.

26:11150 % tax? Yes, do you believe? 150. On alcohol? Yeah, alcohol. And then that means sake, one thousand here in Japan is eight thousand Japanese in India. Eight times, wow, eight times more expensive. So how are you getting around that issue? How are you navigating that issue? So, the issue is, everybody told me that sake is low profile. Sake is low profile and firstly, our competitor is Korean soju. Korean soju. They are very good for promoting, like Netflix and K-pop with soju. Sake is difficult to combine with anime. Very quiet. Yeah, and quiet and no anime, right? That is very difficult for me to promote sake.

27:03What is sake? Sake is rice wine, but the good thing is, rice is on the plate, right? India has lots of rice. And here, in the eastern north, northern eastern, they have the rice wine. rice wine. They had rice wine. Somehow they are using it. Recently, there's so many people focus on healthy eating and Japanese food and Asian food is on the growth. Sushi? Sushi. But sushi, but probably Indian people like the crispy things, which is... Tonkatsu. Outer layer of tonkatsu. Outer layer. But yeah, but food is very big. They don't eat pork. Right. And only chicken katsu. Yeah. Tempura. Lovely tempura.

27:55I heard that over in India, many bars are trying to use sake in cocktails. Yes, that's right. We are doing the sake in order to make the profile upgrade. Sake cocktail, but sake is lower alcohol, right? Sake plus kind of the low-waka, mezcal or something. then yeah I don't care I don't know but because it's sake we see the sake bomb and sake cocktail and the natural but they're trying to get the umami yeah umami that sounds good

28:33yeah yes and we do have the pro wine as well pro wine pro wine india of course Yeah, for wine in Mumbai. Because wine is becoming bigger in India as well, right? Yes, yes, yes, that's right. The wine world has really taken an interest in India in recent years. Huge people, right? Huge... India has a huge demographic trend. Right. Yes. So for the long term, we can invest, but not the short term. Right? So you're not going to see results straight away, perhaps? Yes, yes. Have you told... What about... So India, I mean, a lot of spicy food. Yes. How are you finding pairing sake with spicy food? That's a very good question.

29:12But think about India food. India food has a lot of ingredients. I always say oil. One, two, three, four, five, six oil. Oil is, Japan is just only the oil, fresh oil. What do we have? Coconut oil, sesame oil, of course, and also spicy oil as well. And first, one, two, three, four, five nuts. and also spicy herbs that layer there and that's combined with sake and also that they are using the yogurt yogurt marinated yeah that is good combination with that makes sense yeah no spices right yeah spicy and high alcohol no right you told me as a teacher yes yeah yeah so miko was my My student, WST student.

30:03I'm a student. Yes, yes, that's right. So yeah, in WST we teach that if you're going to pair sake with spicy food, generally you should go for a lower alcohol sake with a little bit of sweetness. But I think, and actually it was Mickey-chan in Hong Kong who taught, Mickey who taught me this. If you have umami, umami performs the same... Yes, that's right. has the same kind of interaction with spicy food that sweetness has. So you don't need sweetness if you have umami. So if you have a very high umami sake, even if it has high alcohol, it still comes down to personal preference. But maybe we should do a sake and food pairing version too.