Opening THE GATE on Xavier Thuizat’s Recent Activities

0:02The people of sake actually brought me into sake. Back in 1988 this place was actually in Gimza on the main drag. At first it was kind of soy sauce, it was miso. To the point where it actually changed my life. New Year's Day 1989. Not just sake as a beverage but all the culture and history. Hi, this is Frank and thanks for tuning in to another episode of Sake on Air. The entire team has had a busy summer, but we are finally back with a bunch of new interviews and episodes to share with you. Today we have an interview we recorded with the illustrious Xavier Tuiza after an event where he introduced Gate, the sake he made with Daishichi Sake Brewery in Fukushima.

0:40Xavier, as many of you know, is the founder of the Kuramaster Sake Competition in Paris, and often works with the Japan Sake & Shochu Makers Association on various projects. He was first a guest on Sake On Air back in 2020. I talked with him about making gate, pairing sake, his thoughts on GIs, and a wide range of other topics. Now let's get on with the show. So, to start off, could you introduce yourself, please? Yeah, of course. I'm Xavier Tuiza. I'm a best-sobner of France, best craftsman of France for sommelier class, and also a sommelier of the herb by the Guin Michelin this year. And I'm also a new sake maker.

1:28Yeah, yeah. So to give everybody who's listening to the show a little bit of context, we just listened to Xavier present his new sake that he made with Daishichi. Yes. So what's the sake called? So the gate. The gate means... they get the door open to gastronomy, the door open to sommeliers and world of wine. This is a link between sake and sommelier. Because I saw many times in my experience in France, London, US or in different places that sommeliers can't use sake because they don't know sake. They don't know the categories. sometimes it afraid a bit the sommeliers. And for this reason, they don't use sake in a restaurant because they don't know how to prescribe and to teach to the guests.

2:23So I know from this amount, I have to do something. Okay. Well, even if you know you have to do something, how do you get connected to a sake brewery and get to make the sake? It's a long story because when I started sake 15 years ago, I immediately visited many many breweries and I met Otasan from Daeshichi Sake Brewery. And for me, I was... I feel emotion when I visit this house because I felt a lot of traditional methods, traditional atmosphere, they preserve the knowledge of the grand grand grandfather. it's close to two centuries and a half so it's a long long work and for me I was impressed by this atmosphere and by the sake when I tested the sake from Kimoto method I found the lights I found the energy and for me it was an unforgettable moment can you explain what the Kimoto method is so sorry yes a Kimoto is a traditional method when you start to to create the sake.

3:34Kimoto, we can say it's a natural way when lactic bacteria arrived inside the mast. Normally we had something, a solution, the liquid, a few centiliters and it brings immediately the lactic bacteria so you protect against oxygen like that you have a sake bright and delicate modern style but the kimoto this is a traditional method at this moment the bacteria lactic few decades ago 50 60 years ago have to arrive by themselves and the bacteria lactic are in the atmosphere but to go inside the must it takes two weeks so this method is to move a bit the must to take care of the must and to wait the bacteria go inside the must like that we have a contact with oxygen so it changes a bit the flavors in change a lot the flavors we lose the freshness a peach or maybe green apple turn to the spicy flavors Roots, authentic, spicy cumin, white pepper, this is a different atmosphere, close to the cereal in fact, close to the authentic things from make sake, the rice.

5:05And Daishichi is good at making kimoto? Daishichi preserves this method of kimoto, very specific method, because there is a secret in this process that is still emotional. So I can't share here, sorry. But I have, in fact, a part of the secret, not the totality of the secret. But yeah, this house is so special. And Mr. Sato, the master brewer of Daishichi, is now a national treasure recognized by the government. Oh, wow. And it seems like it's a very traditional brewery. Yeah. So how did you convince them to make a sake with you? Very good question. because they prove they are in fact a bit modern because they are turned to a French sommelier.

5:55I'm a French sommelier. And my job is to provide emotion through the gastronomy. And we have the same philosophy with Ota San, Ota Chacho, the president of Dai Shichi. He likes cuisine. He likes France. And together, when I was in France many years ago, I created emotion to him with pairing with Japanese sake with his sake and he said wow I didn't imagine that French cuisine could serve my Japanese sake my sake so it was for him a very important meeting gastronomy and sake and to celebrate our 10 years of friendship he told me we have to do something together we have to create a sake and I say otasan with a great pleasure we have to preserve the freshness of the modern style but preserve also your tradition so we start to blend together something unique because our main goals was his to create emotion to the guests through the cuisine of all around the world it means use kimoto Ginjo and Dai Ginjo.

7:16But if you put more Dai Ginjo in the blend with a hot temperature, with a Nurukan temperature, it's a bit difficult because it's still complex to have a good result on a warm temperature. So because we blend a perfect harmony, we decided to push a bit the Kimoto to have a warm temperature interesting and to go down the Kinjo Dai Ginjo. But we tried it maybe 30 times. It's very difficult. So it was for me a good experience to find the harmony, to find the balance. And in the world of wine, only the great wines are in harmony and in a perfect balance. But now I know why it's so difficult to make a great wine and a great sake because it's so difficult.

8:07When you were blending, the Daiginjo Ginjo and Kimoto, were you blending it in the glass or were you pouring it into a bottle or a tank? How much were you blending at one time? So we take from the tank and inside the glass because for me the best result is inside the glass, the final result. So we tested like that in different percentage and after when the blend was finished, the bottle stays approximately one year in the fridge for a long aging of one year because when you blend something to create the harmony inside the bottle it takes time if we sell it few months after three four months it's not in harmony everything is still separate the molecules have to make like a fusion and when it's finally in a fusion, so for the molecules it takes one year you have one perfume not different perfume separate, one perfume Did the flavor change then?

9:17From when you created it in the glass when you were first blending to a year later Yeah, because Otassan told me in one year it would be different but it's more beautiful now. Everything was separate but in my mind, in our mind, we tried to imagine this flavors with this flavors with this flavors. We feel free but one. What is the result? And in fact we could imagine. And it was for me the main emotion one year after when I go back to Daichi to taste the results. It's a strange sensation because everything is here but in a different expression. I found my blend but I found it like an adult. For the children, now it's an adult.

10:07It's the same thing. That's so interesting to me. So with the blending, blending is a little unusual in the sake world, right? But it's common in wine? Yeah, in Bordeaux, for example, Bordeaux, it's based on the blend and I know I take a risk to create a blend sake because normally we don't blend in Japan but for me the only one way to have balance is the blend. The only one way to go to elevation is the blend. The blend brings you to the light because you have everything. You have acidity, you have sweetness, you have flavors, complexity, you have texture in the mouth. Because you are different sake, from this reason you have a complete sake.

10:56So with the time we can go to the light and the elevation. For me, edition one, if you taste it in one year, two years, three years, if of course you have a good condition to keep the sake, this is not the end of the story now, just the beginning. Normally a sake we keep it a few months and after it goes down, oxidation and it's finished. But with the powerful and the brightness, the energy of this sake in two years, because it's better now compared to one year ago. So because of the blend, we can go through one, two, three, four years. No problem. I believe in it. Is it pasteurized? One time only.

11:42One time only. yeah yeah and it's it's regular the the ginjo daiginjo and kimoto they were they're separate brands yeah right yeah and so it's not special sake made to be blended it's absolutely it's separate um but here we want to create harmony but my main goal was to teach to the sommelier to the people all around the world what is a balanced sake as i said before sommeliers are confused with sake. Which category? I don't know what is Namazake, I don't know what is Ginjo, Daiginjo, Kimoto, Junmai Shu. What is this complexity? On the label, we have nothing. No Junmai, no Daiginjo, no Semai Buai, no polishing rate because it's a blend.

12:32So by the law we We can't put because we have everything. But for me, it's just the gate. The emotion of the sake is here. And the emotion of the blend. This is the most important thing. So when you say you want to help sommelier, what has been your experience? Because you're that head sommelier now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when I began in the sake, in the world of Neon Shu, I understood nothing, but I just knew that I love modern style. I like peach, eat drink, light, delicate, like water. So for me it was fun to taste this sake. But I have no idea of all the potential of the sake. And when I taste a pure kimoto, wow, it's sensational.

13:21Because I can try to make pairing with hot foie gras, with poultry, with with the scallops very cooked like that and with a high intensity in a texture and a taste with mushroom, kimoto and mushroom is fantastic and also with a french cheese. I love this idea. So Kimoto pushed me in the idea of pairing with a seke. So when I asked Otasan to make a seke together, Kimoto was for me a foundation. It's a seke based on Kimoto and Orion we had Ginjo Da Ginjo in a different strat, you can say. but the first strat when it's cold it's brightness close to water because when it's cold in a small glass we feel the water and the brightness so this is the most delicate way but if you grow up in temperature you go to the second strat a bit more spicy like cumin or white pepper flavors more intense in mouse because we add oxygen with a large glass and we add temperature go until 18 degrees, second strata.

14:44And after we go to the third strata, the heart of the gate, 35 degrees. This is where we find everything he has into him. at the bottom. So this is the most important thing because 35 degrees reveal everything even the defect. When it's hot. We take a big risk. So because it's based on Kimoto I reveal the soul and the heart of Kimoto. The soul and the heart of the gate. And finally we find the last strat, 35 degrees with a world of comfortable moments, like I said, a pajama moment, at home, kukuning sake. And for me, you enter here in a world of texture, of authenticity, and the way where all Japanese people drink sake before, hot, now it's less trendy to drink sake hot but back to basics it was the end of the story of the gate so if I was a sommelier and this is my first sake that I'm going to try to bring to my restaurant how should I heat it up?

16:14because I don't have the warming station that Japanese restaurants have how would you recommend to serve it for someone who's very new it's the first sake going to be at the restaurant something very easy so first of all you put it in a fridge for a long time so when you take your bottle it's cold and I have a recommendation for that you can sell to your guests so for example if you want to taste it cold you sell it with appetizer with asparagus, iodine cuisine, raw cooking fresh and cold appetizer if you sell a glass but if you want to sell it with maybe a meat or a fish, you keep the bottle with a red wine on the same temperature.

17:00The sake is powerful to be kept in storage like a red wine but you change a bit. But the best experience for me, the ultimate experience is to start to sell a bottle, a full bottle for all the menus, you start to serve at 10 degrees on the first appetizer and you put the bottle on the table. And you serve minutes after minutes, the temperature grows approximately 2 degrees in 30 minutes. And by this way you go to 12 to 14 to 16 to 18. And for the moment of the main course, the beef, you are at 18 to 20 degrees. And you can follow the evolution all along your dinner. If the sommelier is smart, you can change the glass with the meat for the 18 degrees to enhance more the flavors.

18:05And it's a totally full experience. So if you don't have the things to bring the sake on warm temperature, these two first steps are fantastic. Because you can understand many things. That's very interesting. Did you design it with French cooking in mind? Yeah, French and Greek and Peru with ceviche, Japanese of course, India. So sweet cuisine, Chinese cuisine also, because Chinese cuisine is very difficult because they like that Chinese people. Wine, in fact, can't make a good pairing with Chinese cuisine, with a spicy cuisine. And they are proud of that. Ah, you, the French, you can't make pairing with our cuisine.

19:00It's unique, our cuisine. It's right, because it's very spicy. But Japanese sake can make the pudding. Japanese sake is in elevation. In fact, Japanese sake enhance the flavors of the dishes. That's why it's a unique beverage. And that's why in gastronomy, we have, for me, the beverage of tomorrow. No sulfites. everything is no SO2 we have also no chemical product in fact because everything is natural, it's water and rice so this is for me the healthiest beverage on the planet Will you stop selling wine at some point? and only sell sake? I think of course both are in adequation and for me, no question to be in competition with wine because it's two different pleasures, two different emotions winemakers love sake brewers and sake brewers love winemakers so it's a good relationship and for me, I'm not here to say sake is better than wine or wine better than sake but just to say we have two worlds that where somebody can play The goal is to play.

20:28Me, my job of sommelier, I play every day. I learn because I play. Or I play because I learn. I don't know if they're right. But it's still important for me to keep in my mind that I'm here only to give pleasure and emotion. So my only one goal in my research, how can I give pleasure to my guests? If you were going to describe the emotion you feel when drinking a really good wine, and then describe the emotion you feel when drinking a really good sake, what are the differences in those emotions? It's a very good question. I can compare both emotions between white wine and sake. Because acidity is here, texture is approximately the same, with a mineral sensation, so like you feel you like a rock.

21:20It's the same thing in a white wine and a sake. But it's very different with a red wine because in a red wine we have tannin. Tannin is the things very different between sake and wine, so the texture of tannin and oak, the oak barrel and tannin. So that's why Bordeaux is so at the opposite of Japanese sake. But Cabernet Sauvignon aged in an oak barrel like Bordeaux style, Bordeaux blend, and sake both can make a pairing with a beef. Because in fact it's too emotional. Beef and Cabernet Sauvignon aged in an oak barrel bring texture, bring tannin. so it's like a conversation between beef and wine.

22:11And both are together, but they discuss. They are not in harmony, in fact. In opposition. In opposition, but with pleasure, of course. Japanese sake enhance the flavors of the beef because the texture of sake, the DNA of sake, is an enhancer of flavors. Exhaustion flavors. And because it exhausts flavors, it means like an harmony. Because the seke stay humble versus the cuisine, serve the cuisine. When you bring in the mouth the beef, you bring the seke at the same time, we have after a few seconds we have more taste of beef in mouse before the seke but the seke because the seke had the enhancement of flavors interesting you have to try it so it's harmony not opposition but Mr.

23:21X could love opposition because but me also I love Bordeaux and the beef because I like this conversation and this opposition because both exist but I love also the peaceful that sake bring in the harmony of the pairing so it's like you choose between a Picasso and a Monet it's very difficult that's a really good analogy I really like that analogy that's excellent thank you thank you Hi! Sorry to interrupt my interview with Xavier, but I have a special announcement from the Sake & Shochu Information Center. On Saturday, September 20th at 4pm, the Information Center will be hosting a Kouta event.

24:05Kouta is a traditional type of Japanese music where a singer is accompanied by a single shamisen. If you are interested, you can get tickets at jss-event17.ptix.com. That's jss-event17.petix.com. Hope to see you there. Now, let's get on with the show so savia you've been on the show five years ago um episode 53 yes of course of course so it's been a long time yeah too too long too long my fault yeah no no you've been really busy you've been doing all these things um so what i wanted to check in how is kura master going ah thank you very good very good because yeah this year we celebrate the nine years old of Kura Master.

25:05And now we have 160 judges. Yeah, it's huge. And 1 ,200 sake. So I'm so happy. I'm a bit afraid because I don't know how I can do everything. But I have a very good team. And yeah, everybody in Paris enjoy to see Kura Master grow up. But also, as I said, And the same rule, on the 100 points we give, 100 points, 40 are delegated to the capacity of this sake to pair with French cuisine. So that's why you have a different result. It's not an election of the best sake. It's an election of the best sake with French cuisine, to pair. And for me, we speak as a professional about technical. We speak about the process, the defect.

26:08We are looking for the defect. But in fact, at the end of the day, the consumer drinks sake with a plate, with dishes. So we have to speak about that first of all. And I love technical, I love the process, I like all the details of the production. but it's not the truth in fact. The truth in the plate is in the moment where you open the bottle. Do you have pleasure? How do you drink it? With which kind of dish do you drink it? So everything is complex in fact. So we have to stay focused on that. Think about the moment where we drink the sake. It's so important. But at Curemaster you're not drinking a sake and then eating a little bit of food, right?

26:55No, no, because there is one price, this is gastroenteric price, and we change every year. So it was cheese, before we make butchery, we make mushrooms, for different, every year we have different categories, but it's special price. But of course for the rest, the sommelier, imagine the pairing, say, oh, this sake, bring me to iodine. oh yeah I love it this sake brought me to beef or to mushroom because it's kimoto I imagine the dish it stimulates the creativity of the sommelier and more a sake stimulates the creativity of the sake more he's able to create emotion with french cuisine so it's if it's if it's that spark for creativity yeah of course then then it gets a high score absolutely but if if the sommelier taste it and it's like hmm what should I do then then it's like not so good yes that's how it works.

27:58Oh I see okay interesting. 40 points on 100 it's a lot. What are the other 60 points? So classic so the sight, the nose, the mouth, you know the details, no defects, good flavors, kirei or not, balancing sugar acidity so or the tasting like a white wine in fact. We follow the rules of white wine testing, but we have this 40 % point of capacity. In fact, we use the code of wine to judge sake. And people like that, Japanese people like that, because when we show the results, other breweries say, wow, it's a different result than the competition in Tokyo or in another Japanese contest. Are there breweries that make a sake for Kuramaster?

28:56Or are they just whatever sake they're making, they send that this year? This is authentic sake. We don't ask to change nothing. First of all, I imagine when I created Kuramaster that Daiginjo will be the king. In fact, not. Because I saw and I learned in the same time, I learned that French sommeliers say, okay, but modern style, Daiginjo style, it's good, but it's like water. So don't speak to me to create a pairing. Say, wow. I say, okay, good news. I didn't imagine that. And they said, we love Kimoto style and traditional method. For me, my education was first by Ginjo and after I pushed the door to Junmaeshu and Kimoto to finish with Koshu.

29:57But in fact, I learned that they love Koshu and they love Junmaeshu, not too polished. The big star who polish a lot, don't win Kora Master, never. It was a big surprise for me. 60%, 65%. So, yeah, we are a country of tradition, in fact. I discovered that. That's so interesting. Because, like, in the Japanese competitions, like the kampyokai and stuff, almost everything is ginjo, right? Yeah, of course, of course. Of course. But I think it's good for the sake because it proves that different cultures enjoy different kind of sake. and even for the American people even for the other countries you can love you can enjoy a beverage only if it pairs with your culture with your cuisine your own cuisine for example French cuisine is rich creamy a touch of spicy but more creamy and full intense so French sommelier recognize the Kimoto as a very good pairing and it's right in fact.

31:12You know Paul Bocuse, famous chef, traditional French cuisine, many creams, many many creams. So this is not a surprise to see that Kimoto is in a good shape in France. Interesting, interesting. Are people making French sake? Yes, Les Larmes du Levant in Rhone Valley, which is a very good thing, a very good sake with a special water from Pila Mont. It's the name of a mountain in the central of France.

31:54There is also Koura in Burgundy, but not at the same result. The thing I think we miss is regularity in the process. And rice, really not the same rice. So they import some rice, but it's not a first choice, I think. Or, yeah, it's still complex. So, L 'Arm du L 'Anne was good, but for the rest, it's a bit complex now. So I think we have a climate too hot, a bit too hot it's better to have a winter more cold than we have in France it's a bit too hot I trust however in the sake of Norway oh really? did you say it? I haven't tried it I think you can find it in Tokyo sake of Norway I forgot the name because it's a complex name in Norway but find it come from the snow not too bad for sake and it was for me a great emotion.

32:58Great emotion, yeah. Very good, very good. Are there any, do you know of any, like, French men who are, or French ladies who are in Japan, like, making sake or anything like that? One more. It's Richard Geoffroy, who made Iwa. Iwa sake. I-W-A, Black Label, maybe you saw that. Right in white. It's Iwa and with Charlie Picard. Charlie Picard is the CEO of Iwa, French man, so I know them well. They come from Don Perignon, Champagne. So now they create beautiful Kura in Toyama. And this is the other one. We are two now. I'm not a brewer because I create one sake only, but I'm with Otasan, of course.

33:49This is Daishichi first. but yeah they are full full Kura oh wow excellent what do you observe in the French market especially like in high-end restaurants is there more sake is there less like what's going on in the French market the French market goes well because we did in three years plus 35 % very good 35 % 37 I think 37 Nothing. Wow. Because the sommelier and because the chef like sake. For example, we have a three stars Michelin restaurant in South of France, in Marseille. You know, for the sauce in France and for the cooking, we use many white wine, the base sauce. Instead of white wine, he used sake for many years.

34:37Three stars Michelin, and he loves sake. And many, many chefs, Yannick Elenow, Alain Ducasse, make sake, use sake. Sorry, use sake. But Alain Ducasse made a sparkling sake with a shit chicken. So it's a good sign. Because Alain Ducasse make his sparkling with a shit chicken, bring it in France. All people in France like it. and to enjoy a moment in a terrace at the start of the evening, it's a perfect moment. Oh, wow. Oh, that's very interesting. If you make one of the mother sauces with sake instead of white wine, what changes? How is it different? Is it much different or is it mostly the same?

35:28Could be different. Of course, it's different, but the art of the experience, in fact, it's the same because it's like Jumuller, you know, with different flavors. But the texture is here. And I think we have to taste white wine versus sake in one dish. We have to play many times to see, oh, in fact, it's not too strange sake. It's not too complex because I have the code of white wine. So for me it's an adéquation with the code of white wine. The common point. All the beverages we like to drink with pleasure and quantity. All these beverages come from the fridge. Beer, cedar, white wine, Japanese sake.

36:22It refreshes the body. Except the red. The red is not to refresh the body. It's a moment in a restaurant with the meat, it's a moment more precious, maybe more unique. So we're prepared to drink it, but to drink something to refresh the body, everything comes from the fridge. And the white wine and the sake come from the fridge, like the beer. so that's what I trust in the future for the red in a light red style low color like a dark pink I believe in this category of wine the light red in the future the Saint-Saëns grape in the US the Pinot Noir delicate like an infusion this is the future because we could drink cold oh fresh so it's almost like the future of red wine is becoming a little more like sake.

37:25Of course. Of course. Interesting. Of course. And sake is a fisher of wine. If you want to... I think there's a lot of sake brewers that would be very excited to hear something like that. That's so interesting. I also wanted to ask about... Well, I guess, talking about the French market. I'm an American. America's been doing some strange things recently. No, no, it's a kid. What is the state of import-export? Is it easy to import sake into France or is it difficult? Yeah, it's easy, but as an American, you can speak about the tax.

38:12Of course, for us in France, the tax is important. you consider you see a bottle of sake in a shop in Tokyo it's two times the price in a shop in France two times so 10 euro mean 10 dollars in Tokyo mean 20 in France but 50 mean 100 so I think if we have a low tax of course but everybody think the same thing but if we have a low tax of Of course, we can sell even more sake because the good sake arrived at 60-70 euros in a perfect opposition to White Burgundy, which is very famous in France. So it's a very difficult opposition because for the same price, and I'm lucid on that, French people don't want to choose a bottle of sake compared to a bottle of Meursault or Montrachet because it's the same price.