In short
Sake On Air - Episode Summary: Songs of Sake for Koto and Shamisen with Bobby Griffin
Episode Overview In this episode of the Sake On Air podcast, host Frank Walter visits multi-instrumentalist Bobby Griffin at his home studio to explore the connection between sake and traditional Japanese music, specifically focusing on the piece Sasa no Tsuyu for shamisen, koto, and voice. This piece, arranged in the 1800s, celebrates the pleasures of sake through its lyrics and musical composition.
Links
- [Watch the video of the visit](https://youtu.be/8anultw4rFY)
- [Learn how to play Sasa no Tsuyu](https://jp.bbobcoto.com/)
Key Themes and Discussions
Introduction to Bobby Griffin
- Bobby Griffin is a multi-instrumentalist who began his journey into Japanese music by accident while working in Japan.
- He initially studied woodwinds but transitioned to learning the koto, drawing parallels to his background in harp.
Sake and Its Cultural Significance
- Bobby expresses a passion for sake, emphasizing its smoothness and versatility (can be warm or cold).
- The episode delves into the cultural nuances of sake consumption in Japan, including social and ceremonial aspects.
Exploring Sasa no Tsuyu
- Sasa no Tsuyu translates to "dew of bamboo leaves," and is a traditional song that lyrically intertwines themes of sake, beauty, and life’s fleeting nature.
- The lyrics reference classical Japanese literature, making the song rich in cultural context.
Structure of the Piece
- San Kyoku: Refers to a traditional Japanese music format involving three instruments and a vocalist.
- Mai-uta: The opening song that sets the scene.
- Te-goto: An instrumental interlude showcasing technical skills.
- Ato-uta: The concluding section that wraps up the piece.
Important Stories in the Lyrics
- The song features narratives from Japanese mythology and literature:
- Susanoo and the Eight-Headed Serpent: Highlights the use of powerful sake to subdue an adversary.
- Empress Jingu: Represents sake as a sacred offering and a celebration of peace and safe return.
- Philosophical References: Includes thoughts from Confucius and Buddha regarding the nature of alcohol, adding depth to the commentary on sake.
Musical Techniques and Performative Aspects
- Bobby discusses the technical aspects of koto playing, likening koto to an automatic car and shamisen to a manual transmission due to the control required.
- He emphasizes the importance of maintaining traditional forms and the nuances of different schools of music (yu-ha).
Modern Context and Influence
- The episode touches on the evolution of koto music, mentioning that contemporary compositions often integrate Western styles and instruments.
- Bobby notes the increasing accessibility of koto music and the potential for modern storytelling through traditional instrumentation.
Key Takeaways
- Cultural Interconnection: Sake serves as a bridge between personal enjoyment and deeper cultural appreciation in Japan.
- Artistry in Tradition: The piece Sasa no Tsuyu exemplifies how music can narrate stories from Japanese literature while simultaneously celebrating sake.
- Learning and Performance: Engaging with traditional instruments requires dedication, as reflected in Bobby's journey to becoming a licensed teacher.
Conclusion This episode beautifully intertwines the worlds of sake and traditional Japanese music, highlighting their mutual significance in cultural expression and storytelling. Bobby Griffin's insights into the nuances of koto and the tales embedded within Sasa no Tsuyu create a rich tapestry that showcases the artistry and depth of Japan’s musical heritage.
Closing Remarks Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the interplay of music, culture, and the sensory experience of sake, fostering a deeper understanding of both elements.
Until next time, kampai!
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOBobby Griffin's Musical Journey
0:46 to 2:15
Bobby shares how he found his passion for koto and shamisen music in Japan.
“Well, it was all by accident, coming to Japan and getting into music.”
Teaching and Learning Koto
2:16 to 3:45
Discussion about Bobby's journey to becoming a licensed koto teacher and his experiences with his teacher.
“And then, like, how did you find a teacher?”
Koto vs. Shamisen: Musical Comparisons
3:46 to 5:20
Bobby compares the koto and shamisen, discussing their unique challenges and musical characteristics.
“But when I do explain it, I always compare them to cars.”
Sake and Japanese Traditional Music
5:21 to 6:54
Exploration of the relationship between sake and traditional Japanese music, introducing the piece 'Sasa no Tsuyu'.
“I think that's a great thing to say about sake, right?”
Interpreting 'Sasa no Tsuyu'
6:55 to 8:56
Discussion on the meaning behind 'Sasa no Tsuyu' and its connections to sake and Japanese literature.
“dew could could be little drops of sake uh okay yeah yeah but in in literature they always talk about it.”
Structure of Traditional Japanese Music
8:57 to 10:52
Bobby explains the structure of the san kyoku form in traditional Japanese music.
“But if you don't know anything and you're just listening to it, it might be much more kind of couched in.”
Lyrics and Cultural References
10:53 to 12:40
Exploration of the lyrics in 'Sasa no Tsuyu' and how they reference cultural figures like Confucius and Buddha.
“The teigoto is an instrumental interlude that's kind of usually fast, could be a dance, could be a party, could be...”
Musical Techniques and Imagery
12:41 to 14:01
Discussion on musical techniques used in the song and how they relate to themes of drinking and reflection.
“So it talks about Buddha's 36 evils of drinking sake.”
Exploring Shogo and Gekko in Lyrics
14:01 to 16:46
Discussion about the use of terms in lyrics related to sake and their meanings.
“And I also, in these lyrics, I don't know that we use these today, but when we're talking about Confucius and Buddha, the lyrics are using shogo.”
The Story of Susanoo
16:47 to 19:48
Narration of the mythological tale of Susanoo and his encounter with the eight-headed serpent.
“And then we have a little tegoto section where the instruments show off a little bit.”
Show all 24 chapters
Empress Jingu and Ritual Sake
19:49 to 23:07
Discussion on Empress Jingu's story and the significance of sake in Japanese rituals.
“These would, these songs, yeah, this would have been played for something like that.”
Philosophers and the Role of Sake
23:08 to 27:31
Exploration of the influence of Chinese philosophers on the perception of sake and its poetic significance.
“They, like I said, they love the double meaning stuff.”
Nature, Sake, and Spirituality
27:32 to 28:00
Connection between nature, sake, and the deeper meanings they hold in Japanese culture.
“And then we talk about Yoshino and Tatsuta.”
The Role of Sake in Nature's Beauty
28:00 to 28:34
Discuss the significance of sake in appreciating nature's beauty.
Exploring the Song Structure
28:34 to 29:34
Analyze the structure and elements of the song being discussed.
“So it's without booze, it's just nature.”
Performance Length and Enjoyment
29:34 to 31:00
Discuss the length of performances and the social context of enjoying sake.
“This song kind of, this song is a little bit different because it has a Naka Uta, like a middle song.”
Learning and Recognizing Koto Pieces
31:00 to 32:29
Talk about learning Koto pieces and recognizing their melodies.
“And so was this like one of the first pieces you learned how to play or just you came across it and you were like, ooh, this is fun?”
Historical Context of Koto Music
32:29 to 33:54
Examine the historical performance context of Koto music and its players.
“Yeah, oh wow, okay Would he have like his ensemble or would it be like?”
Modern Koto Compositions and Instruments
33:54 to 35:09
Discuss modern compositions and variations of the Koto instrument.
“He probably had his favorites to play with, I guess.”
Exploring the Range of Koto Instruments
35:09 to 36:43
Explore the different types of Koto and their tuning systems.
“Most of the modern stuff I've played has no lyrics.”
Transitioning to Koto Performance
36:43 to 38:01
Prepare for the transition from discussion to an actual Koto performance.
“normal koto can do and they just are extended or is it entirely different like extended and you know Koto has 13 strings, so you typically tune to a five-note pentatonic scale.”
Technique and Interpretation in Koto
38:01 to 39:30
Examine specific Koto techniques and their interpretations.
“move over to the koto room let's do it sweet Okay, and then we have a technique called Tsukui and Keshi Tsume.”
Musical Performance and Practice
39:30 to 42:03
Engage in a Koto performance and its associated practices.
“so okay Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh He was Ha, ka, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, pa, yuh, pa, a, a, a, a, a, a, a ee, a, a, a, a, a, a ee, a, a, a, a e.”
Exploration of Musical Expressions
42:03 to 44:48
Discover the unique musical expressions and cultural references in the episode.
“love on holy Khmer Is Bedw Sue Or-, daunting Isha., Me., Ta-ma-aa.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:14Bobby Griffin:Welcome to another episode of Sake On Air, the world's first podcast about sake, shochu, and abomori. Today we are on location. We're visiting the wonderful Bobby Griffin to talk about sake, shochu, and Japanese traditional music, specifically music played on the koto and Shabisen. Bobby, how are you doing today? Great, how are you? I'm doing pretty good. It was a nice little visit to come all the way up here. Thanks for coming. It's so exciting. So yeah, I think before we start talking about the sake of it all, kind of what brings you to Japan and how did you kind of get into Japanese traditional music?
0:46Frank:Well, it was all by accident, coming to Japan and getting into music. I was just kind of wanting to stop by Asia on my way home from Australia and I I randomly got a job in Japan, started working, and I wanted a weekend hobby. So I started playing koto, and it snowballed into becoming a licensed teacher and doing stuff like this.
1:11Bobby Griffin:Were you musical beforehand? I was.
1:13Frank:I studied musical in university, and I worked as a professional musician in the States. With strings? Woodwinds. Woodwinds, okay. So I was actually a bassoonist for the orchestra, opera, ballet, and things like that. Musicals.
1:27Bobby Griffin:Yeah, why didn't you do like the shakuhachi or something like that? Why Koto?
1:32Frank:I thought shakuhachi was just going to be really easy. I'd be able to pick it up and, you know, just no challenge at all. Since then, I have tried shakuhachi and I was completely wrong. So maybe I'll pick it up later.
1:49Bobby Griffin:So started with the Koto, got really into it. What was kind of the thing that got you hooked?
1:55Frank:Well, I played harp back home as well. Oh, okay. A small little harp gig, so I thought Koto would be really similar to the harp. I was also wrong about that. But, you know, I kind of searched videos online and I just saw a few videos that made me think, I need to play that. Yeah.
2:16Bobby Griffin:And then, like, how did you find a teacher? or you just...
2:20Frank:I searched, when I first got here, I had to search in English, and only one teacher came up when I searched in English. So my teacher is Gare Nakagawa, and she is based in Saitama. Oh, okay. I've been studying with her for about 13 years. Oh, wow.
2:35Bobby Griffin:Yeah. And she's a good teacher, I would assume? Yeah, great. Scary, or just like very nice, and like, oh yeah, you didn't matter?
2:41Frank:Usually very nice. Okay. But you know, all good teachers are scary sometimes. Fair, fair. But if any foreigners want to try Japanese music, she's the one to go to.
2:51Bobby Griffin:Okay. And so has Koto always been the thing? Because I know you also do play a bit of Shamisen.
2:56Frank:I do play Shamisen. So kind of in the steps to becoming a licensed teacher, you get four kind of menkyo. Okay. Certificates, licenses. and then you're allowed to take like the main test to become a licensed teacher. So I did all four of those on Koto and I took the test. So now I'm Jun Shihan. Okay. So like assistant master. Yeah, yeah. And then now I'm working on the four licenses for Shamisen. So I've got, I'm working on the fourth one now. Okay. And then I'll do a final recital to become Shihan, just regular master.
3:41Bobby Griffin:Okay. So you have to have both to be a Shihan? Yes. You have to study Koto and Shamisen. Okay. Are they similar musically?
3:53Frank:It's hard to explain. Okay. But when I do explain it, I always compare them to cars. So I feel like Koto is like driving an automatic car, and Shamisen is like driving manual transmission. Okay, interesting. You have to kind of really control the intonation. and really control exactly what the strings are doing. Koto kind of...
4:16Bobby Griffin:Is doing that for you.
4:16Frank:Is doing that for you, and then there's a lot of technical stuff involved that makes it difficult.
4:21Bobby Griffin:Interesting. Okay. Because, I mean, I guess that makes sense with the number of strings that each instrument has, right? Right, right. Where you're working with three versus how many for Koto? Thirteen. Thirteen. Thirteen, yeah. Cool. That's really interesting. Yeah. I would really like to learn more about that. aspect of Japanese music in general. But today we're going to talk about sake. Sake and Japanese music. Do you drink a lot of sake?
4:48Frank:Yeah, I love sake. I have no knowledge about it. I just know that I like to consume it. Yeah.
4:56Bobby Griffin:Do you remember the first time you had a good sake in Japan?
5:03Frank:The only thing I remember about it was how smooth it was. Yeah. You know, because you start drinking it thinking that you're just taking a shot, but you're not taking a shot. It's a very pleasant experience, right? So that's what I remember about it. That's reasonable.
5:21Bobby Griffin:I think that's a great thing to say about sake, right? It looks like a distilled beverage, but it goes down like a nice beer or wine. Oh, yeah.
5:29Frank:Really smooth. Yeah. And you can warm it up in the winter. Yeah, absolutely. Drink it cold in the summer. Yeah. Perfect.
5:36Bobby Griffin:You can have it warm in the summer too. There are people who do that.
5:38Frank:That's true.
5:40Bobby Griffin:I'm not necessarily one of them, but some of our other hosts are. Okay. So we get into debates about that kind of thing. But yeah, so cool. Let's talk about sake and Japanese traditional music. Let's do it. Where do you like to start? Where should we start?
5:52Frank:Well, I kind of wanted to talk about a specific piece today. Okay. And it's called Sasa no Tsuyu. Sasa no Tsuyu. Does that mean anything to you by chance?
6:03Bobby Griffin:I mean, sasa is like the bamboo leaves. right? Tsuyu is uh...
6:10Frank:Dew? Yeah, exactly. The morning dew. I, after learning this piece a long time ago, um, I started noticing, you know, at sake bars or, you know, wherever I was ordering sake that there are some sake called Sasanotsuyu. Okay. I don't know if you've ever
6:27Bobby Griffin:I have not come across a Sasanotsuyu sake, but I would believe you.
6:30Frank:I've only recognized it because I knew this piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, ah, that's that song about sake yeah so you know i kind of got into a deep dive researching all of the stories oh in this song yeah and in japanese literature we're going to really talk about literature today even more than music okay uh but in japanese literature the you know the image of dew could could be little drops of sake uh okay yeah yeah but in in literature they always talk about it. So you know the phrase, monon no avare. So kind of the beauty in the fleeting transits of life. So that's what the morning do is.
7:17Frank:And sake kind of helps you reflect on your life and reflect on the beauty of art. And you know, notice things like that. So they love double meanings in all of this music. So the Sasa no Tsuyu is talking about the dew and talking about the fleeting beauty in life and talking also about how sake helps you connect to the two.
8:15Yeah.
8:16Bobby Griffin:Does that make sense? Is that super obvious, like in the lyrics of the...
8:22Frank:I think so. Okay. So the way the lyrics in the song work, in a lot of traditional Japanese music, we take stories from the tales of Genji or the Hyakunin Ishun. Collections of those famous works of poems and Japanese literature. So this song really references several different stories from each of those that are talking about sake.
8:49Bobby Griffin:Oh, cool. So if you know, if you're knowledgeable about that kind of thing, then it's pretty obvious, like, oh yeah, this is a sake song. But if you don't know anything and you're just listening to it, it might be much more kind of couched in.
9:06Frank:Well, yes. But this song in particular says sake. Okay, it just comes out. The first lyric is sake. Oh, okay. So we've got a few stories, so maybe we should just talk about a couple of the stories.
9:20Bobby Griffin:Yeah, yeah.
9:20Frank:Or maybe I can talk about the form first. Yeah, maybe let's talk about the form.
Read the full transcript
9:26Bobby Griffin:Let's start with the, well, what do you mean by form? Let's start there.
9:29Frank:Okay, so this is a san kyoku. So it's a specific type of traditional Japanese music. Okay. So how much do you want me to get into Japanese music?
9:42Bobby Griffin:I'm very curious. So is there like an ichi kyoku and a ni kyoku and a san kyoku or is it a different san?
9:48Frank:The san refers to the number of instruments. Oh, okay. So a traditional koto song is called san kyoku. Originally it was for koto, koukyu. Do you know koukyu?
10:01Bobby Griffin:No.
10:02Frank:Koukyu is kind of like a shamisen. It's like a little shamisen that's played with a bow.
10:06Bobby Griffin:Okay. Oh, interesting.
10:07Frank:Koukyu and shamisen. Nowadays, usually the koukyu is replaced with a shakuhachi. Okay. And then of course there's the vocal part, which one of the instrumentalists will sing.
10:20Bobby Griffin:So three instruments and a person singing.
10:23Frank:Three instruments and the koto player is singing. Oh, the Gotoku player singing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or the Shamisen player singing. Oh, okay. Yeah. So this is called Sangkyoku and you have those three instruments and a vocalist, which is one of those three. Who is one of the three. And you always start off with a mae-uta, the before song, and then a te-goto and an ato-uta.
10:46Bobby Griffin:Okay.
10:46Frank:So the maia uta kind of sets up the scene with the lyrics and with the music. The teigoto is an instrumental interlude that's kind of usually fast, could be a dance, could be a party, could be...
11:04Bobby Griffin:Is it kind of like the showing off bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the technical musical skills? Exactly, exactly.
11:10Frank:Developing on the themes and usually kind of a variation type of thing going on. And then you have the Ato Uta, which ties everything up. Okay. Oh, cool. Sometimes there's stuff in the middle, like in this song, the Naka Uta, the middle song. But here, the Mai Uta is talking about Confucius and Buddha and how they relate to alcohol. So I'll just kind of tell you the lyrics. Yeah, yeah. So it begins by saying, sake has no fixed measure. Okay. So you can't, it doesn't matter how much you drink or how little you drink as long as you, you know, maintain your self-control. This is what Confucius said.
11:53Frank:Oh, okay. So it quotes Confucius there and then it says, oh, well, maybe he was just a heavy drinker. So it starts with a joke.
12:03Bobby Griffin:Is that pretty common? To like do a twist or something like that? Not really. Not really?
12:08Frank:So usually when I've studied these lyrics, they've all been pretty serious, you know, or talking about Genji wooing a woman and listening to her play Koto in the Moonlight or something. But this starts off with two jokes. I think it's really fitting of the theme. So we talk about Confucius, and then we talk about how Buddha warned against the 36 harms of drinking sake. I didn't know about any of this, but I discovered it in some stories while researching this. So it talks about Buddha's 36 evils of drinking sake. And then it says, oh, maybe he just couldn't handle his alcohol.
12:55Bobby Griffin:It's not that alcohol is bad. It's that these guys were weak. Right, exactly. They just got sloppy drugs.
13:01Frank:That's the issue. Should we worry about it? Should we consider it? Nah, they're... And, you know, the language, obviously you shouldn't, I guess, screw around with Buddha, but the language here is really autorific, you know, the highest form of keigo or whatever. So you can tell it's a respectful joke. Yeah.
13:23Bobby Griffin:It's a little tongue-in-cheek, but it's maintaining that air that is appropriate. Exactly. That's cool. Exactly.
13:29Frank:And I think you can kind of hear it in the music. I'll show you later on the koto. So we have a lot of traditional techniques, you know, you use the left hand to bend pitches and you can use the tsume, the plectrum in different ways. Okay. And these traditional techniques show up in all of this music, but listening to it, I can see how it could kind of evoke the image of swaying back and forth, teetering. Oh, okay. When you get a little tipsy. Yeah, yeah. So I can demonstrate some of that. Yeah, no, that would be cool. And I also, in these lyrics, I don't know that we use these today, but when we're talking about Confucius and Buddha, the lyrics are using shogo.
14:17Frank:Have you heard that term before?
14:19Bobby Griffin:What is the kanji?
14:20Frank:Shogo, up and door.
14:23Bobby Griffin:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So shogo is not used as much as gecko, which is because he doesn't really drink or can't drink. Gecko is a thing that some people still use. Yeah.
14:34Frank:Okay, okay. So yeah, so I learned those words. I hadn't heard those in casual conversations. And those are in the lyrics? Yeah, yeah, those are in the lyrics. Okay. So yeah, it says when it's talking about Buddha, ah, Gekko ni yaohasuran. I guess that's really... Gekko ni yaohasuran. Really formal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he just can't handle it. So the song starts off with two jokes. Yeah. Okay. and then we kind of go into a bunch of stories from different bits of Japanese literature. So I don't really know any of these stories very well, but maybe you do. Do you know the story of Susanoo?
15:21Bobby Griffin:Like the guy who kills Orochi?
15:23Frank:Yeah, nice. Okay.
15:26Bobby Griffin:He's the brother of Amaterasu, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:30Frank:Exactly, exactly. So the first story talks about him. Okay. And he, so he came, he was really bad up in heaven and he was kicked out, right? Yeah, yeah. So he came down to earth and he met this couple who had eight daughters. The last of their daughters was Kushinada-hime. Okay. And they said that if he kills the eight-headed serpent, then he can marry her. So basically he, let's see, what does he do? So he told the parents to make the strongest sake possible. And it's called Yashio Ori no Sake, right?
16:20Bobby Griffin:Yashio Ori no Sake.
16:21Frank:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and then they built a fence. Eight appears a lot of times in the story. So they built a gate, put the sake in it, and then the eight-headed serpent goes in, drinks it. He gets really heavily intoxicated, and then he collapses and falls asleep. Yeah. And then, of course, can take care of him. Yeah. So it mentions this story, and at the end it says, oh, is that not the virtue of sake? Okay. So sake is very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we have a little tegoto section where the instruments show off a little bit.
17:02Bobby Griffin:Is it kind of like a jazz solo? Is it pretty preformed or the tegoto part? Everything's written. Yeah, everything's written.
17:09Frank:No improvisation in this traditional music.
17:12Bobby Griffin:So it's determined what you're going to do, but maybe how you're afflecting it. How you're doing it is how you kind of show your particular skill as a performer.
17:24Frank:Well, yes, yes, yes. Nowadays, the objective is to play it exactly.
17:29Bobby Griffin:Okay.
17:30Frank:As it's supposed to be. How it's written, yeah, yeah. Very... The kata. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Traditional Japanese music. Kata. And of course, each yuha has their different way of playing it, so it depends on which yuha you're in. Interesting. Yeah. So then we have a little kind of maybe a drunken dance. Yeah. And then we have another story about Sususuri.
17:56Bobby Griffin:This one I don't know.
17:57Frank:So he was from Korea. Bakje?
18:03Bobby Griffin:Yeah, the kingdom of Bakje.
18:05Frank:Okay, there you go. Bakje. So he came from Korea, and he presented some sake to the emperor. The emperor was feeling good and got drunk on the sake, and he recited a poem. I have become drunk on the sake brewed by Sususuri. I've become drunk off the sake of peace. So it was, you know, a peace offering. Yeah. And he got really drunk, and this was Emperor Ojin. Okay. So I think that was Susuno. He became Emperor Ojin? Maybe?
18:42Bobby Griffin:Possibly? I don't know. That I don't know.
18:46Frank:I think he did. Okay. I think he became the emperor. So anyway, then he goes out, he's really drunk, and he's walking along a path, and he sees a rock. And he hits it with his staff, and the rock moves aside. So even hard stone avoids a drunkard, is what the lyrics say.
19:09Bobby Griffin:So it's like an Aesop fable, almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has a little stinger at the end.
19:15Frank:Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Oh, cool. Each little section. Yeah. It's kind of fun. You know, I studied these lyrics when I learned the piece, kind of on a more basic level. So it was really interesting in seeing these jokes. You're going to tell jokes like this when you're drunk. Right?
19:35Bobby Griffin:Would this be, you think, like a party song? Like when it was first kind of, like when it was first written or first created, would it be more of like, hey, this is going to be something that is played as entertainment for like a big event for somebody?
19:50Frank:These would, these songs, yeah, this would have been played for something like that. Okay. So of course it started off in the Imperial Court. Yeah. And, you know, just really a formal setting. And then as we kind of progress, it comes out of there and goes into the public. So this one definitely would have been played in that sort of setting. Okay. Cool.
20:15Bobby Griffin:And what year is it from?
20:17Frank:This one, yes. This one is from... Temple. Temple. Temple.
20:29Bobby Griffin:Oh man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:32Frank:Let me refresh my memory. 1600s?
20:36Bobby Griffin:No, 1733? Something like that?
20:40Frank:18... 18. Okay, no. Totally off. 1830 to 1844.
20:43Bobby Griffin:I got the 30s. I'm a century off, but I got the 30s.
20:47Frank:Yeah, this one's a little bit older. Okay. Or a little bit newer. A little bit more recent.
20:53Bobby Griffin:A little bit more recent, yeah. Which means probably a little more understandable in terms of Japanese?
20:58Frank:I would think so. I would think so. Okay. For me, it's all really hard to understand, but yeah, I think this would be maybe a little easier to understand. Gotcha. Especially if you know the references. Yeah. so yeah so we have so we have powerful sake peaceful and then we have the ritual sake so here we talk about Empress Jingu you know a lot of Japanese mythology
21:33Bobby Griffin:famous character in Japanese mythology for sure
21:37Frank:so Empress Jingu overpowered the rebellion of King Oshikuma after his conquest and so she sent she was the mother of Emperor Ojin the one that moved the stone yeah and she sent him off to be like for some purification thing yeah and then to come back so while uh he was gone she made this machi sake okay the sake and waiting so she prepared it for when he came back as a celebratory you know drink yeah to consume when he came back for
22:21Bobby Griffin:because you're going to come back at some point my son i want to have this for you because we're going to be a big party when you get back whatever that is exactly so uh here you know sake is a
22:31Frank:ritual offering, divine blessing, celebration of safe return, peace again. And she says, this sake is not merely mine. It's a sacred sake blessed by the gods. So drink it all. And in the song we sing, sasa yo, sasa, sasa to no koto no wa ni. So drink it all. Come on, come on, drink the sake.
22:59Bobby Griffin:There is a lot of ss going on here.
23:01Frank:There is. I wonder if that's, that must be intentional. Definitely intentional. Definitely, absolutely. They, like I said, they love the double meaning stuff. They love that alliteration. And they love to kind of, you know, tie all of that in together. I mean, really, really clever. Yeah, that's super interesting. With the lyrics.
23:22Bobby Griffin:It's like a tongue twister almost.
23:24Frank:Yeah. Try to memorize it and sing it. Yeah, it's tricky. I've got a few of those other examples of that written down. Oh, yeah? We'll get to that. Okay. Yeah. And those are like the three stories? Those are the three stories, yeah. Okay. So we open up with talking about, you know, general Confucius and Buddha, talk about those three stories. and then we go into just saying, you know, sake's been handed down, you know, over the years, all the way to the people of the present age. Okay. The 1800s. Yeah. In this case. Drink like the gods, drink it all. Come on, come on. Yeah. So it's like a party song.
24:12Frank:It's a party song, yeah.
24:13Bobby Griffin:It's like a shat, shat, shat, shat, shat, shat, shat, shat, shat, kind of song.
24:17Frank:I think so. Cool.
24:20Bobby Griffin:Yeah.
24:24Bobby Griffin:That's so interesting. It's so interesting. It sounds, I mean we're going to hear it later, but it sounds like it is probably pretty formal Japanese music, but formal Japanese music is formal to us now in the present because it's 200 years old. Right, right, right. To the people then where this is maybe like a very fun time to get drunk and rowdy.
24:48Frank:I wonder if it was fun or I wonder if it was a little risque. I wonder if they were thinking.
24:54Bobby Griffin:Oh, yeah. It's like pushing boundaries a little bit. Yeah.
24:57Frank:Possibly.
24:58Bobby Griffin:I believe it. The Middle period is very much that kind of like the shogunate is making these laws, but you can't wear silk if you're a commoner or something like that. Right. They're only making those laws because people are obviously wearing silk all the time. So I could totally, yeah, absolutely can imagine that kind of thing.
25:18Okay.
25:19Frank:So those are the stories. Yeah. And then at the end, like I said, the Ata Uta kind of wraps everything up and tells you what they really want to say. Okay. You know, the meaning of the piece. Yeah. So we talk about two philosophers at the end. Okay. Liu Ling.
25:39Bobby Griffin:Okay.
25:40Frank:So these were very famous Chinese philosophers that wrote a lot about wine and sake. Okay. so Lu Ling celebrated the transcendence through intoxication in a lot of his poetry and then Li Bai is the other one who's mentioned and he really romanticized drunken inspiration okay so you know
26:02Bobby Griffin:yeah the flash of inspiration getting tanked seeing the beauty in the world
26:07Frank:yeah so yeah Lu Ling wrote a famous piece called The Ode to Wine okay And he kind of praises the wine as a path to spiritual freedom. And through intoxication, one can transcend society's fake restraints or constraints and live in spontaneous harmony with the Tao.
26:29Bobby Griffin:Okay.
26:30Frank:And then Li Bai, he said, without sake, there's no poetry.
26:36Bobby Griffin:Okay.
26:37Frank:And he wrote a really interesting poem called Drinking Alone Under the Moon. and he was drinking alone and he invited the moon and he invited his shadow to come drink with him. So he had a party of three and then as he got more and more drunk he was alone and left to reflect on the meaning of life. Okay. That's interesting.
27:02Bobby Griffin:Okay. Because these are both, they're writing in Chinese. Right, right, right. But the poem is in Japanese.
27:07Frank:The poem is in Japanese but they're just referencing these classical literature.
27:12Bobby Griffin:Exactly. That's what Chinese lyrics. Exactly. Okay.
27:15Frank:So it basically just references those two, and then it says, those two would have just been ordinary men had they not had sake. Ah, okay. Yeah, that's what gave them their oomph, their strength. So that's one set of lyrics. And then we talk about Yoshino and Tatsuta. So Yoshino is really famous for Hanami. Yeah. And these are both in Nara.
27:41Bobby Griffin:Okay.
27:41Frank:Tatsuta is really famous for the autumn leaves the koyo that you're going to see so you know in Japanese culture you're not going to go to Hanami without taking sake without taking alcohol with you and you're not even necessarily going to go to look at the autumn leaves without taking sake so they work together so they talk about these two really beautiful places where you go for inspiration to see the beauty to see that mono no aware of life and the lyrics say the autumn leaves and the sakura in yoshino and tatsuya without sake they're nothing more than just ordinary places with no winky no okay yeah so that just kind of sums up the entire story within the song.
28:38Frank:The entire thing. Yeah.
28:39Bobby Griffin:So it's without booze, it's just nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With booze, it becomes something more and has a meaning to it.
28:46Frank:Right. Okay. Booze opens the gate. Yeah. You can see the real beauty. You can, I don't know. That's so interesting. See the truth of the universe.
28:57Bobby Griffin:Yeah, it adds a spiritual dimension to something that's otherwise just like, yeah, it's a natural thing. There are cherry blossoms. they look nice the end it's like no there's a level above that and how you get that get to that is like with the sake
29:11Frank:yeah I can and I can relate to that
29:13Bobby Griffin:yeah absolutely oh Hanami without sake would be terrible right
29:19Frank:yeah I should I should find one about Onigiri too oh yeah
29:23Bobby Griffin:that would be cool yeah
29:27Frank:that's interesting so that's kind of the feeling of the song yeah
29:31Bobby Griffin:yeah and it goes So like you were saying, the Maya Uta would be the Buddha-Confucius bit, and then a little bit of instrumental kind of thing?
29:41Frank:This song kind of, this song is a little bit different because it has a Naka Uta, like a middle song. So in this case, Buddha and Confucius are the Maya Uta. We have a little bit of dancing. Those other three stories are kind of scattered within the instrumental stuff. Oh, interesting. Okay. And then we finish it off with the Atta Uta, like, wait a second.
30:01Bobby Griffin:How long is the whole piece? oh jeez hold on let me look too long long enough to when you're sitting in
30:09Frank:Cesar you can't walk off stage properly
30:14Bobby Griffin:it's not like it's not like 20 minutes though right oh oh is it like 20 minutes probably oh wow so this is it is the whole it's the whole set basically if you're thinking like a rock concert or something for like oh yeah for sure that would be like okay we've done it it's done thank you so much 22 minutes wow oh wow okay so okay I was thinking it would be a little bit shorter no no no more like five oh wow
30:45Frank:that's why you wouldn't want to go listen to three or four of them in a row
30:48Bobby Griffin:yeah okay yeah you listen to the one and then maybe it's more eating and drinking time and then like an hour later like bring people back on and do that
30:55Frank:although if you drink sake between yeah maybe they'd get more interesting as we've learned Yeah. Indeed.
31:06Bobby Griffin:Interesting. Very cool. Yeah. And so was this like one of the first pieces you learned how to play or just you came across it and you were like, ooh, this is fun?
31:16Frank:My sensei kind of just assigns me what piece she thinks I should learn next. This is from the fourth level of...
31:27Bobby Griffin:Before becoming Jun Shihan. Right, right, right. Okay.
31:30Frank:So, yeah, each level gets a little bit more difficult. Is it like EQ, Nukyu, Sankyu kind of thing? Kind of, yeah. So this would be an EQ piece, I guess. Gotcha.
31:42Bobby Griffin:Would you say most people would know it? Like if you were to start playing the opening lines, and people who play Koto might know it.
31:54Frank:I would think so. Yeah. people who kind of study more seriously might know it but it's funny that you say that because on the exam they would play the first 40 seconds of a piece and we would have to write them down and they all sound the same especially if you haven't studied it
32:16Bobby Griffin:you're looking for kind of like specific distinct things not like it's super obvious like you can play that game like the first six seconds of a song right in one note
32:27Frank:no probably not although this one does start out by saying sake that's true so that's a good hint yeah
32:36Bobby Griffin:would it have been performed by men or by women when it was first written do you know
32:42Frank:I think men I think it would have been it would have been performed by men yeah nowadays we kind of associate koto with women yes but yeah I think it would have been played by only men back then interesting and this was composed by we were talking a little bit about it earlier This was composed by Kikuoka Kengyo And Kengyo is the title given to blind Koto players, okay, so he was the top Top-ranked blind Koto player.
33:15Bobby Griffin:Yeah, oh wow, okay Would he have like his ensemble or would it be like? I guess I should start by asking what was it like to be a musician back then? Do you know? Like were you going around to different places like itinerant kind of thing or would you be would he be like in the court just as the court musician?
33:38Frank:Before this it would have been a court musician. I think during this time they were going out taking it to the public making music accessible this type of music accessible to everyone.
33:49Bobby Griffin:And did he have like a band? or was it mostly just him and then whoever was there to like accompany him?
33:57Frank:He probably had his favorites to play with, I guess. But I imagine he would have collaborated with other musicians as he traveled.
34:06Bobby Griffin:Is it pretty hard to do that nowadays? Like if you're going to play with someone for the first time, does it require quite a bit of practice? Or because everybody knows the rules about how you play a particular song, it's pretty easy to just be like, oh yeah, we're doing that one. All right, let's get started.
34:22Frank:If you're meeting someone within the same yu-ha, then it would be easy to do that. Oh, really? Okay. Sometimes I will find music on Spotify or YouTube or somewhere else and the singing is completely different. The singing is off from how it's written in my music and I'll know that they're from a different yu-ha. Oh, okay. so it just depends on the school that gotcha yeah can you and so you can kind of you can
34:52Bobby Griffin:definitely tell usually like oh that's the same oh they're yeah yeah yeah for sure and then of
34:57Frank:course there are a lot of common pieces that we yeah share that we can that we could play the
35:01Bobby Griffin:more modern stuff okay is there modern pieces being written for like yeah of course of course
35:08Frank:Yeah, all the time.
35:09Bobby Griffin:In modern Japanese?
35:12Frank:Yeah, I guess so. Most of the modern stuff I've played has no lyrics. It's all instrumental. So that's actually an interesting question.
35:22Bobby Griffin:So there's not like Koto music that's talking about your smartphone or like getting texts from your partner being like, where are you? You're out late at night.
35:30Frank:I'll have to look. That's kind of interesting, right? Yeah. I did go to a small little koto concert in a bar several years ago and there was a song for cello, bass koto and voice and it was in English the lyrics were in English it was about some fires in Australia
35:59Bobby Griffin:interesting that's super interesting
36:04Bobby Griffin:Are there different types of koto? Is there a bass koto and alto koto kind of thing?
36:09Frank:So there is a soprano koto. I've only seen one. I don't think it's used very much, but there is a bass koto. So Miyagi Michio was really the father of the modern koto. He was like the first composer to write for Western instruments. He played with a lot of famous European Western instrument professionals. professionals uh and he just wasn't satisfied with koto he wanted to extend the range yeah so he
36:35Bobby Griffin:invented a 17 string koto wow all right uh so you'll see that one used a lot and nowadays
36:42Frank:there's 20 string 25 string yeah they can do a lot more stuff can do like can do everything a
36:49Bobby Griffin:normal koto can do and they just are extended or is it entirely different like extended and you know
36:56Frank:Koto has 13 strings, so you typically tune to a five-note pentatonic scale. Okay. And that kind of gives you a bigger range. If you tune like a piano keyboard, you just have an octave, right? So you can't do a whole lot with that.
37:13Bobby Griffin:Yeah.
37:13Frank:So a 25-string Koto will have a lot more notes that you can play with. So you can do chromatic stuff a lot easier and things like that. Interesting.
37:22Bobby Griffin:I don't really know what chromatic means. so chromatic would be if you if you played every note on the keyboard going up white and black notes that would be yeah chromatic yeah and so with like 20
37:34Frank:strings you can kind of get that yeah you can do that yeah the 13 string koto you have to do a lot of pushing to get all of those notes and even then tuned to a traditional Japanese scale you can't hit everything and all the notes without moving the the bridge the bridges okay huh interesting cool yeah that's very interesting
37:57Bobby Griffin:all right i'm pretty excited to hear you play okay yeah let's try some move over to the koto room let's do it sweet
38:26Okay, and then we have a technique called Tsukui and Keshi Tsume.
38:36Frank:So this kind of reminds me of maybe the dew drops on the bamboo or little drops of sake somewhere on the table. Let's see.
38:59Frank:So we have, I don't know, kind of reminds me of little sake drops. Yeah.
39:08Okay.
39:09Frank:So they're not specifically supposed to conjure ideas of sake, but that's what I get from it. I like it. okay so I'll start from the beginning the maillot is always really slow sip your drink slowly yeah
39:31Frank:so
39:37Frank:okay
39:43Frank:Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh Eeeh He was
40:09Ha, ka, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee, pa, yuh, pa, a, a, a, a, a, a, a ee, a, a, a, a, a, a ee, a, a, a, a e.
40:43Nasit Og
40:51No
40:54Frank:Ta Ma
41:02I I I I I I
41:14piano plays softly
41:47Frank:Savior
41:55Frank:In the book of dreams we are
42:02Frank:NOU O-O-N-O-N-I-O-R лу.
42:27Trici Daswa Maa shi
42:35Frank:Maa shi Aim.
42:47love
43:10Frank:on
43:16Frank:holy
43:21Khmer Is
43:25Frank:Bedw Sue
43:31Frank:Or-, daunting
43:39Frank:Isha.,
43:44Frank:Me., Ta-ma-aa.
43:53Frank:O Y C
44:48Piano music Thank you.
45:18Frank:O tokegeconia
45:28Bow
45:29Frank:Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow
45:50Wow!
45:52Frank:We got through Buddha.
45:55Bobby Griffin:So that is the Mayuta?
45:58Frank:It's most of the Mayuta, yeah.
46:02Bobby Griffin:That's so cool. We'll start coming in. Thanks for listening to this episode of Sake on Air. We'll be back with a new episode very soon. But in the meantime, please take a moment to review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. As always, send your questions and comments to questions at sakeonair.com. Or reach out to us on Instagram or Facebook at at sakeonair. Don't forget that we have a YouTube and a sub stack as well. Sake On Air is made possible with the generous support of the Japan Sake & Shochu Makers Association and is broadcast from the Japan Sake & Shochu Information Center in downtown Tokyo.
46:44It is produced by Export Japan and our team is Shuso Imara, Justin Potts, Arlene Lyons, Cindy
46:51Bobby Griffin:Vissig, Chris Hughes, Chris Pellegrini, John Gottner, Marie Nagata, Miho Ota, Rebecca Wilson-Y, Sebastian Luan and me, Frank Walter. Until next time, kom-pai!
From the publisher
Frank visited the multi-instrumentalist Bobby Griffin at his home and studio to talk about how sake is treated in traditional Japanese music. In particular they talked about Sasa no Tsuyu, a piece for shamisen, koto, and voice. It was arranged in the 1800s and the lyrics are all about the power and pleasure of sake. We also filmed our visit, and you can check out the video here on youtube: https://youtu.be/8anultw4rFY
If you are in Japan and want to learn how to play Sasa no Tsuyu, check out Bobby’s school!
As always, if you have questions or comments, please do share them with us at questions@sakeonair.com or send us a message on our Instagram, Facebook, or Substack!
We’ll be back very soon with plenty more Sake On Air.
Until then, kampai!
Sake On Air is made possible with the generous support of the Japan Sake & Shochu Makers Association and is broadcast from the Japan Sake & Shochu Information Center in Tokyo. Sake on Air was created by Potts K Productions and is produced by Export Japan. Our theme, “Younger Today Than Tomorrow,” was composed byforSomethingNew for Sake On Air.