The Changing of the Guard at Fujii Shuzo

0:21Welcome back and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sake on Air, the world's first English language podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, sake, shochu, and of course, awamori. The show is made possible with the support of the Japan Sake and Shochu Makers Association. My name is Sebastian Lemoine, one of your regular hosts, and today with me, I have another of our regular hosts, Big Chris, Chris Hughes. Hello, Chris. How are you doing? Hello, Sebastian. I'm well, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, and both of us are pretty excited because today we have the joy and the honor to receive a brewer from the Hiroshima region, Nohiro Fuji, who is in line to become the sixth generation owner of Fuji Shuzo, famous for brands such as Ryusei.

1:21Fujisan, good afternoon. Great to have you on the show. Hello. Hello. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Thank you for inviting me today. Well, it's our pleasure. And we have lots of questions. Of course, we want to hear about yourself, about the brewery, about Takehara as a city to brew sake. And we know that Takehara has been affected by extreme weather events in the last few years. But we may touch on other topics as well, such as the rice problem, because Japan has a small problem with rice at the moment. And we want to talk about environments and all the initiatives that you've been participating to or having about the environment of the brewery and your region.

2:13Maybe I mean, I will start with a simple and open question. I mean, would you kindly introduce yourself to our listeners and introduce your brewery as well? Okay, again, thank you very much for having me today. My name is Nori Hiro Fuji. Please call me Nori. And I am the sixth generation Kuramoto at Fuji Shuzo, a small sake brewery located in Takehara, Hiroshima. Takehara is a quiet town by the Seto Island Sea. It's full of history and our brewery has been here since 1863. Our founding branch is called Ryusei. The name means Dragon Force in English. Ryū is Dragon and Sei means Force or Energy.

3:05It's said that the name comes from Ryūtouzan. that means the Dragon Head Mountain, the mountain just behind our brewery. Long ago, people noticed that the spring water from this mountain made excellent sake. In Japanese tradition, dragons are seen as gods of water too. So the name Ryusei carries both the power of nature and our respect for the water we use. In 2021, we began a full transition to traditional kimoto brewing method. In 2023, when I officially took over the family business, we returned completely to all kimoto brewing. Now, our next goal is to graduate from using Kyokai East and brew only with the natural east that lives in Awakura.

4:04and a brewery. So we hope to create sake that really reflects this place, this building, and this moment. That's the path we are working on now. Sake only being made here. Excellent. I mean, I have lots of questions after that short introduction, but I will start and take a step back in his story because, and that's a story that I personally love, is the story of this amazing achievement, not by you or your fathers, but by your predecessors in 1907, where suddenly Hiroshima Sake appears on the map of Japanese sake, or at least the best Japanese sake. Around that time, I mean, clearly sake from Nada and possibly Kyoto was much more famous than other sake types.

5:02What happened in 1907? Well, in 1907, the Japanese government held the very first national sake competition. We were honored that our sake, Ryusei, won first prize at that competition. It was named the best sake in all of Japan. At the time, sake from Hiroshima was not well known. So this result was a huge surprise and a great source of pride of the region. One of the most respected brewing pioneers, Mr. Senzaburo Miura, sent us a special calligraphy scroll to celebrate. He called our win a great honor for Hiroshima. We still keep that scroll in our brewery today. Even now, this achievement inspires us.

5:58It's a symbol of our history. And a reminder to always live up to the name Ryusei with care and integrity. Wow. So you were the first gold ever, the first ever gold awarded in Japan. The first sake to be awarded a gold in Japan. and the first sake to enter the competition and win a gold in japan it's amazing but i think at that time there were there were not only gold medals and silver medals or medals but but prizes i think that your your sake i mean you say got the first prize and uh and that that was that was remarkable they just praised the first prize second prize third prize in the order because originally it was designed for deciding the tax right the tax uh kyu betsu seido yep right first or second class i think before the those categories categories ah yeah okay you're right yeah and of course it predates it by a lot doesn't it yeah yeah that came later so if we talk about takehara for a minute it's it's a it's a beautiful city at least The historical area of Takehara truly is beautiful and should be much more visited than it is today.

7:23Although I think that with the rise in tourism, you must see more visitors than you used to. But it's truly beautiful. But how is it as a city to brew sake? I mean, why are you in Takehara? And where did you find your rice and your water initially? Yeah. Today, there are only three sake breweries in Takehara, including ours. But back in the early 19th century, there were as many as 26 breweries. 26? 26 breweries? Yes. Wow. The sake history of Takehara is very, very old. Some say brewing began here as early as the 13th century. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Interestingly, the Takehara is not a good place to grow rice.

8:21The soil contains salt and the bamboo grows everywhere. Right. Because you're near the sea, right? Yep. But the Takehara was famous for something else. The salt, of course. So starting in the 1600s, the Takehara became one of the Japan's best salt producers. Ships from all over Japan came here to buy it. So, and when they came, they brought rice and other goods with them. That's how sake brewing naturally took root in this town. Salt for rice. Yeah, salt for rice, yes. because the you know the hundred years ago the price is the money in japan it's currency of course yes of course it's a currency so people people paid with rice so basically they were buying salt with rice yes that's right but in the major period the salt became more common and many wealthy salt merchants started sake business but by the 1900s shipping changed as a ray transport with race sea transportation.

9:37So the sake production moves inland, especially to the place like Saizou. But Saizou to Takehara is quite the distance, isn't it? I mean, how far is Saizou? It's about 30 kilometers. 30 kilometers. Okay, I thought it was a bit further than that. Okay. Yeah, understood. But it's too far to walk, so. Yeah, most definitely. By bicycle. But no drinking. No drinking when you're on the bicycle in Japan. No, no. And were there good water in Takehara with all the salt in the soil? And how did you find your water? And what sort of water do you use today? Oh, the spring water is very, very, you know, huge in Takehara.

10:25Okay. So everywhere we dig the land, the spring water comes out. Okay. I mean underground water. Underground water. Yeah. And that, Fukuryusui? Fukuryusui, yes. And that comes from the Mount Ryutouzan. What was it? Ryutouzan? Ryutouzan is one of the parts. But I think the... The... The... The... The Chugoku Mountains. The Chugoku Mountains. The Mountain Range, yeah. Yeah, sure. Okay. Maybe. And so what is the mineral content like? Do you have a lot of sodium bicarbonates or things like that in the water? Is it classed as hard or soft? Super soft. Super soft. Usually people say the Fushimi water is soft water.

11:13Yeah. But they contain about 40 to 50 milligrams per liter. Ours is only 20. Wow. That is soft. That might even be softer than Mount Fuji water. Mount Fuji is around 30, isn't it? 30 or... I think so. If you look at a bottle of water from Mount Fuji, drinking water, normally it's like 30 milligrams per liter. So I think that's softer than... Wow. I thought she was a little bit softer. That's why the Hiroshima is not a good place to brew the sake. Then the Senza Bro found a way to brew the Ginjo style. because if you have less minerals and we're going to not go into we're going to go into a deep dive about the relation of water and brewing but very quickly if you have less minerals in the water it leads to a slower fermentation and that means that you have a risk of spoilage especially in the old days right okay and sense of burrow was basically one of the guys who found a way around this issue and that's what eventually led to the cold fermentation style which we call the ginjo brewing today it's a lot more complicated than that but again just to fill in the gap for our listeners there i i'd like to get back to um to you i mean fuji-san i mean you you first of all you you you speak english which is rather quite unusual for for sake brewers that's why we only have few brewers on our on our on our program um so i'd like to to to ask you where did you go to learn English why did you learn English but but after that I have another question is initially you were I think you you learn about sake sales and you were very much involved in the sale and export of your sake to other countries but my understanding last time I I saw you at at a Tokyo event is that 24-25, this current season, is one season where you were deeply involved in brewing.

13:21And I'd like to know why and how you enjoyed it, if you enjoyed it, and what you took away from it. Actually, I graduated from the university in the United States. that's why so i i can i can speak right i i might say i cannot speak but uh well you can speak you're speaking to us now that the proof is that so which university did you graduate in uh carl state long beach and party party university what major what what what did what did you learn about uh i'm i was I'm just measuring in business finance. Business finance, okay. Yeah, business finance. Because to be honest, when I was young, I had no intention to talking about taking over the brewery.

14:15Because I don't like Takehara and I felt Takehara is too small, too traditional, too close off. and also the sake business also looked very tough you know as a teenager i couldn't see any excitement in it so i decided to go to you know the learn the business in the united states did you live inside the brewery a lot did you did you play in we hear sometimes from other sake brewers that when they were growing up they would play inside the brewery i mean not literally play but you know they would be able to walk around the brewery and sort of you know interact with the brewers did you have that experience or yes of course yeah yeah but even so you never really caught you never really felt any kind of uh pull you know towards uh sake despite growing up in that environment yeah and maybe when i was in elementary school maybe you know i have a good time in our hometown, but after junior high school, there's nothing to play, you know.

15:24There's only ocean. Well, you can surf, you can surf, and you can swim. Actually, no tide in Seto Island, so... No, the currents are like a spiral, aren't they? Like whirlpools and things, yeah. Okay, so you don't get any tides. So what changed? You went to America and you studied you know you graduate you went to this university what changed your opinion uh your mindset about your hometown and about Sakeburi because uh i mean uh

16:07Actually, maybe living abroad gave me a new perspective. Because from far away, I started to see the value of my hometown. And I began to understand the depth of Japanese culture and how fragile it can be. At the same time, I met many people who were curious about Japan. That made me want to share the good things we have, especially those that are often overlooked. So I made the decision to come home, not just to make sake, but protect something bigger. Our family, history, our region's culture, and the spirit behind this craft. that's uh and and your friends in university when you tell them that you work that you are from a sake brewing family i mean maybe they don't understand what you mean at first but when you explain what your family does what is the reaction from your your friends in america most of the people have a big surprise because we are now 160 years right now so that but none of the country, company, I mean, few companies maybe continue over 100 years, but most of them are not.

17:35So they really respect our business and they are very, very curious about how to make sake and also the, you know, the background culture of sake too. And that further made you feel the value of your family business. Yep. How was the year for you? The brewing year? Brewing year? Actually, I was really, you know, tough, but it was really tough, but it was a really fun time for me. Because the 2024 brewing year was a major turning point for me. Until then, my uncle had led our brewing as Toji. since I came back to the cry in 2013 I had always said let's make everything in the Kimoto style but for maybe five years he didn't even want to hear it because too much work right first of all, what was your reason for wanting to do everything in the Kimoto style?

18:49and maybe you will elaborate on this later on and talk more about Kimoto because I really like to love to drink wine because they have a geographic identity but sake is this is just my opinion that most of the sake is just I feel industrial goods no teowall at all more about the process more about the production yeah yeah so i i want to like sake more you know the cultivate or in i mean uh i i want to brew sake with nature and technique not only techniques and so after five years you managed to slowly change yes really changed yep so the But, you know, in 2023, when my uncle turned 60, so he passed the law of Toji to one of our Kura Bito, but nothing really changed.

20:05So I made a decision to, you know, in 2024, I stepped into brewing with both roles as Kura Moto and Kura Bito. So I helped the brewing process, but at the same time I checked all the process to improve our sake. Okay. Did you take over the role of toji as well or just kurabito? Just kurabito. Just kurabito. Just kurabito. Is your uncle still brewing sake with you or is he more, did he take a step back and is just helping or supporting your efforts? I want him to help the brewing, but he's still in our class. So he wants to control the brewing process. So it's a difficulty. This is an inherent trait of a toji, right?

21:08The way that their role, I think it's a difficult habit to get away from trying to control the brewery because they were in charge, right? Originally, Toji were in charge of the entire process. They dictated everything. And I think it's difficult for them to adapt to this new system where the owner has more control over the process. So you were much more involved in brewing this year, I guess much more involved in Kimoto Brewing in particular. so like crushing the rice on a on a on a daily basis i mean how many how many batches how many kimono kimoto batches you do last year i mean this year the 55 55 oh that's quite a lot yeah work and do you do it the traditional style so you do the motosuri yeah of course you don't use any of the faster techniques you do motosuri right okay and i mean how do you just very briefly how do you do Motosuri?

22:11How many little batches do you divide it up into? We usually use two Shubo at once. So eight small batches. Then mix it, then separate into two. How many people are doing that? How many staff do you have in your brewery at the moment? Four. Only four? And you're doing the Kimoto? So one person has to do one by themselves, basically, right? No, two. Two people. Two people doing it at the same time. Then they do the... That is crazy. Two minutes. Two minutes? Just two minutes? It's hard work. Two minutes is hard work. So how do the other brewers feel about doing Kimoto? Do you ever get any feedback or do you encourage feedback?

23:03Do you like to hear from them how they feel about kimoto? Do they enjoy doing it? Actually, that first time, to be honest, they don't want to do the kimoto style because it's hard to work. Yeah. But after switching to the all kimoto style, maybe taste has become very unique. from the customers become more positive. So now they are very proud of doing the Kimoto style. Yeah, yeah. I have to say as well that some of the, one of my best memories of enjoying Ryusei Sake was with your father and in Shinjuku at a bar that has a huge collection of aged kimoto from Ryusei. And they were amazing, amazing sake.

24:05And I think your sake style, especially kimoto sake, will make great mature sake. Okay. We have to go to this bar, Sebastian. We have to go with Fuji Sakyo. We have to go to this bar. Sure. Why have I not been to this bar?

24:30Yeah, I've had an aged Yusei, of course, because I think there's some aged in your blends, and I've had an aged Yusei before, so I know what you're talking about, Sebastian. Are you carrying quite a bit of matured sake at the Kura, Fuji-san? Yeah, of course. now I have 2014 to current year so about 10 years of production 10 years do you have any of the I think you might have I think I might have read this do you have any of the original 1907 you say left no the oldest one is maybe 1987 we have I had to ask there was a slight twinge of optimism and hope it was an unrealistic expectation because you know that 1907 sake is the best of Japan right yes everybody wants to drink so of course you ran out why would you keep any back hold any back yeah a question I wanted to ask you as well was about the dramatic really events that Takehara went through back in 2018 and 2021 where you had massive floods in the city due to extreme rain and and your brewery was deeply affected by that and now you're telling me that you had some stocks of mature sake i just hope hope that none of that was uh was wasted but can you share with us i mean personally i really think that the stories of breweries such as yours who went through dramatic events, but managed to find strength and restart and rebuild and redevelop are really inspiring stories.

26:51So I'm truly curious to hear from you a little bit about what happened and what the family did and how you progressively managed to get back on your feet. So again, in 2018 and 2021, our brewery was hit by the two major floods. I never imagined that our crowd would be underwater twice in just four years. The first time over the flood, I mean, 2018, it was hard to even accept what happened. But the second time, I just laughed, you know, because not because it was funny, but because it felt so unreal. Before the 100 years, just maybe only one time underwater. What happened is that you had heavy rain accumulating on the city and around the city.

27:58and flooding the whole city. Is that right? Yep. I mean, not all the city, the particular area of Takehara. The historic, well, the part you're in, which is the historic part of the city, actually. Yes, that's right. So, but we are just flooded. So nobody injured, nobody, no building is destroyed. so we just cleaned up whole hour crust. So it takes time, but it was okay. Did you lose some of the sake, some of the tanks that were brewing? Or it was in summertime? Summer, mostly dry. No fermentation taking place, only maturing sake, is that right? Maturing sake or storing sake. We spoil maybe 10 ,000 bottles each, I believe.

29:00But those were very difficult times. But I really feel thankful to support from many people because our customers, our partners, and even other sake brewers who are normally our competitors, they all send help encouragement and send me warm messages those I will never forget I mean I have not been in that industry for that long but this is one of the things that really struck me after the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and tsunami and that's how I really saw with my own eyes the support of the industry for brewers who are going through hardship um is that something that existed before you think or is it something that because the reason why i'm asking is we know that the the sake market has been in a crisis uh for a number of decades and and and brewers were competing against each other for market share so it would be easy to want to imagine that there was not so much collaboration between Kula as you're trying to capture, recapture market share.

30:30But clearly, in these dramatic events, we did see a lot of support taking place. So that's my question. I think it's happening before, too, maybe. Because we are doing, of course, the business. But at the same time, we are maybe protecting the culture in the local place. So maybe losing the one Kura is losing one culture. So maybe many of the breweries saying protecting the Kura each other is maybe protecting our business too. I think it speaks more to Japanese culture in general. I think Japanese culture is just one of those cultures where people band together in times of crisis, naturally, more than they do in other cultures around the world.

31:26And I don't want to single out any particular cultures, but I think that is something that's quite special about Japanese culture that you see in other industries, not just in the sake industry as well, but particularly in the sake industry, because it's always been a very close knit community, I think, going all the way back to its origins. A lot of other regions went through dramatic events since 2021, and I'm thinking of the Noto earthquake in particular. Were you involved in a particular cooperation or collaboration or project with Noto boys on your side? Yes. I joined a special project called Don't Stop Noto Sake.

32:08after the earthquake and fire in Wajima the health the Hyoshi Shuzo they are they are brewing the sake in Wajima and they attack by the earthquake and the fire and they lose everything so we teamed up to brew their sake at our club they using the rice from the Ishikawa and Hiyo Shuzo's own recipe. So I don't know much, just one time. So I don't know how much it helped, but I hope it gave them a small step forward. And Don't Stop Noto is like a crowdfunding project, right? That's right. And there's three, we're on volume three now, right? There was like volume one, volume two, and now we're on volume three, I think, right?

33:07I believe volume four. We're on volume four now. Okay. Okay. So that might be running at the moment, right? If anyone lives in Japan and they want to contribute to this project, you can look it up online and basically you just contribute. It's like a normal crowdfunding project. So you, you know, you make a donation and then in return, you get some sake or you get access to an event or something like that. Or you, or you can go to your sake retail store and buy, and buy sake, usually buy two. That's what I did quite a bit of last year. So the host brewer and the noto brewer sake brewed at the host brewery.

33:51And you can compare both sake. And it's quite fun. I did quite a bit of that last year. They actually do exhibit at some events as well. Some sake events that I've attended. there's been like a special booth for a don't stop noto and you can taste all the sake that are included in the project it's kind of cool or buy them you were telling us earlier that you want to take one more step after kimoto brewing is to go to natural fermentation is that right is that for 2025 or a bit later I mean how do you how do you see this unfolding because it's a bit more it's always a bit riskier for the for the brewery because you knew you have less control about about your your sake profile and you're less control about the the the amount of of yeast for those who add yeast that you put into your yeast starter.

34:57So, I mean, how can you share a little bit with us how you came to that idea and how you want to implement it? Okay, so I think that for us, the kimoto is not just a traditional technique. It's a philosophy, I think. The way of working with nature, not against it. So I believe that sake is not something we control, it's something we are given and something we raise, like living beings. That's why I always try to leave space for nature. We don't need to manage every detail by myself. So sometimes the best thing we can do is simply wait, listen, and trust the process. It's risky, but I trust, so it's okay.

35:49So we currently brew about 70 % of our sake using wild natural yeast from the Kura. And for the remaining 30%, we still use Kyoka yeast. But our goal is to move towards 100 % natural fermentation and maybe I can do in 2025. Wow. What is the... So you're doing 70 % wild and you're doing 30 % kyokai. What is the difference between these two fermentation batches that you've noticed? I think the fermentation speed is completely different. Because kyokai yeast is... They cannot feel the stress. So they go forth until they die. But natural is a natural microbe, so they can feel the stress. So if currently the brewing process, we use the very, very low temperature.

36:59So the natural is feel the stress about the cold temperature. So they try to sleep. So the fermentation is very very slow but usually the maybe after 30 days fermentation the kyoka yeast is start to die that means the amino acid is going increase and increase but the natural yeast they sleep so they still alive so you know the after 30 days fermentation Domino acid is never increased. I mean, a little bit increased, but not that much. So in fact, last year's average fermentation days, fermenting days are 40 days. And the longest one is 52. Well, average 40 is a long, is a big... That's a long fermentation.

37:56We generally say a long fermentation for sake is around 30 days. So 40, 50, 52. So including shubo, maybe 70, 80 days. Wow. Yeah, that's a long fermentation. Long fermentation. And what about the actual sake itself? What kind of feedback do you get from customers about the two different styles that you've noticed? Actually, maybe the... I mean, Kyoka yeast is more straightforward taste. The kimoto, I mean, the natural yeast is more complex and more... I think more softer, softer taste. Because they are not producing the ester compared to the Kyoka yeast. Yeah, they don't produce the Ginjo-ka. And what Kyokai yeast were you using, if you can share that with us?

39:01Usually we use the number seven and number nine. Number seven, number nine. Okay. So, I mean, the question that I'm really curious about is that natural yeast living in the in the kura what is it is it is it a a blend of uh seven and i a mutation i mean do you have a you have a fight between a mutation of seven and a mutation of nine to or or do you have both do you have any have you done any analysis like do you know what the used to you you yeah i'm sure uh the first of all the kyokai east cannot live itself because like they they don't have a ability to it's all right yeah but not not survive they're making the kids oh i didn't know that oh really they can't reproduce ah so So after the off season, I don't check the Kyoka East living before we start brewing, but generally the Kyoka East is passed away before the...

40:15So we tried to make sake before using the Kyokai East in 2021. then after making the shubo we send the we send the shubo to the research yeah research institute to check the check the east they found 83 kinds of east that not kyokai yeast genes. Then I pick up the nice natural yeast. Reproduce them? Cultivate them? Are you... Okay, so you're cultivating a selection of natural yeast. Very interesting. Cultivate them. Yes. Then we use that is them. It's kind of, you know, just a minute. I look for it. Spontaneous? I mean, no. Maybe you were referring to how reliable they are. Because so you said reproduce.

41:54I think what you mean is mutation. So they don't mutate. So the Kyokai yeast were designed not to mutate. Right. That's the whole point. If they mutate, they change. So you need to have a yeast which is stable and always produces consistent results. So they had to design the yeast so they don't mutate anymore, which means that once you've used them, that's it. They're kind of, you know, they don't produce any more of themselves. yeah it is reproduction for all intents and purposes but yeah so the kyokai 1 to 5 and 8 they have they can they can produce the their kids oh they can mutate okay they can yeah but afterwards 6 except for 8 they cannot because they're stable that's why kyokai 8 is you know that stops sharing yeah because 6, 7 and maybe 9 and 10 are referred to as the stable yes because they don't they don't do that reproduction or mutation and also we check the genome genome genome genome genome the kyoukai is is the all same genome information yeah They are different but very close to their family.

43:17But our natural yeast is much far from the Kyokai yeast genome information. So very original. That means I can produce very unique taste of sake. and that since we had won first place in Japan in 1907 so I was confident that our natural yeast we used was Of course, yeah There must be somewhere in the brewery like just sitting there and waiting when's my turn coming around again? When are you going to need me again? I'm just here if you need me I have one question something I'd like to understand your kimoto style uses um spontaneous fermentation but not always are you are you introducing yeast into your kimoto brewing or is it spontaneous fermentation because you're saying you're using kyokai yeast at what stage are you adding kyokai yeast you're adding kyokai yeast to the shubo so when you do your kimoto?