Scaling Stateside Podcast - Episode 5 US Expansion from the Other Side with Daniel Glazer, Wilson Sonsini

0:11Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Scaling Stateside podcast. I'm David Rose with USXP, along with my business partner, Mac Oxley. We are trying to help founders better understand the US expansion journey, best practices and pitfalls. and we're having guests on the show regularly to kind of help tell those stories. And today we're very excited to have with us Dan Glazier from Wilson's and Sini. Dan, tell us a little bit about your role, the company, and where in the world you're located today. Sure thing. So first of all, Matt, David, great to be here. Thanks a lot for having me. Um, so I head up the London office and the U S expansion team at the Silicon Valley headquartered law firm, Wilson Sincini.

1:00So I'm a New Yorker, um, who moved across a number of years ago to, to London, to open and lead our office there. Um, and so Wilson, uh, was one of the first law firms in Silicon Valley to work with tech companies back in the early sixties, when the first venture funds were formed to invest in tech companies. And our model has always been to work with sort of garage stage startups, as it were, and then scale with them up to IPO and then beyond as a public company. In London, which is where I'm based most of the time now, I head up a team of American and English corporate tech lawyers. So it's a blended, integrated team of expat Americans like myself combined with local English solicitors.

1:44And together we work with UK and European companies through their U.S. life cycle. launch, scale, raise money, exit in the U.S. Awesome. And Dan, what was your very first paying job? So back in the day, I started working at Burger King back when I guess I must have been 14. I don't even know if you're still legally allowed to work at 14. Back then I could work 14 at Burger King. And it was a brand new Burger King. And so I actually took the first order as the cashier, front of house, right, at that Burger King. Subsequently, a couple months later, set the record for most number of cars processed through the drive-through, right?

2:35I have no idea if this record still stands, but back in, you know, 1980-something, that was the record. But then three years later, I got poached by the McDonald's across the street for 25 cents more an hour. Wow. So I was a bit of a mercenary in quick service restaurants. Wow, that's a fantastic place to start. You've got to hustle in that world for sure, and it's never stopped. Well, catch us up. Come and tell us kind of your career journey between Burger King McDonald's and Wilson's and Sini. What else happened? Um, so, you know, I was, I was fortunate to come out of law school, um, in, in, in the late 90s, um, right into the middle of the sort of dot-com era, uh, where it seemed normal to me as a, as a fresh first year associate that companies would go from incorporation to IPO in Silicon Valley, you know, in six months.

3:34Like, that's just what people did, apparently. Having nothing to compare it to, that seemed fairly normal. So in 1998, 99, 2000, you know, I was sort of, you know, growing up in that so-called Silicon Alley environment in New York, right? And seeing, you know, the growth of the New York tech ecosystem. um and then throughout the the 2000s um you know based out of new york and sort of building a building a tech practice um and then in um in 2011 right i took sort of a fateful meeting with the uk government at the uh at the consulate in manhattan um and they said you know historically we had um we we've seen american tech companies go to the uk but now that the cameron government has launched the tech city initiative um which was launched in in november of 20 2010 to scale the uk digital economy they said well now that we've got this this tech city initiative we expect we're going to see a lot more uk tech companies go to the u.s to access the commercial and capital markets there how do we help them and you know dan if you can think about how to do it on the around in london that would be brilliant so challenge accepted as as they say um back in in in the mid 90s uh when i graduated after graduated uni college for my american friends um the um you know i spent a couple months with a backpack and a url pass traveling around europe with some friends of mine we we got to london and i was like this is this is the place right If I can find a way to live and work here, eventually that would be amazing.

5:21And so fast forward, you know, 15, whatever it was years later, it's like, this is it. Maybe this is the way to do it. And so I started commuting, as it were, you know, going back and forth and exploring the opportunity. um you know and and and eventually um you know with the firm that i was at before wilson um ended up spending you know pretty decent amount of time on on their on the ground in their london office working with uk european tech companies uh eventually joined wilson uh in in the mid 20 2010s uh moved to london full-time in 2018 to open the office so i've been working with uk uh european startups on the sort of transatlantic corridor for, I guess, almost 15 years now.

6:09And never a dull moment, as they say. That's amazing. So many questions. I'm not going to ask this one, but I'm just going to put it out there. I really want to kind of at some point dig into what happened when you were backpacking with your friends that put London on a pedestal, you know, the joys and the kind of tribulations that you had there. But the thing that I'd love to come just back to and is the commuting angle of this. You said that you did that for a number of years. Can you just unpack what that was like, what phase of life you were in as well, just so we can just understand that part of the journey?

6:47So, you know, it's almost hard to remember now in a post-pandemic world, but certainly pre-pandemic and what I found throughout the 2010s is that London was very much an in-person meeting culture. And one of the things that we found is that the level of trust that needed to be built up between, let's say, company and council in order to move forward together really needed to be built in person. And I think especially in London in a way that maybe historically not as much in the United States because the U.S. is massive, right? And it's not always easy, you know, to get from one place to the other so quickly.

7:36But in London, everything is so concentrated, right? Like it's, you know, it's the seat of finance. It's the seat of government. It's, you know, it's the seat of entertainment. There's so many different things going on and it's all just sort of like a tube ride away. One of my favorite things about, let's say, the London, you know, the original London Tech City, East London environment is that you've had the city of London, this finance powerhouse, literally a block away from the shortage tech ecosystem. And that sort of industry meets tech was really underpinning the entire growth of the London tech ecosystem.

8:16But all that led to a dynamic where it was assumed that you could be on the ground in that environment and meet quickly. And certainly for people that would work with us, companies that would work with us as counsel, we found that we needed to be there in person to meet them. But on the other hand, it's having that connectivity with the United States, right, and being able to help the companies in real time navigate American fundraisers, navigate U.S. expansion, navigate meeting the right commercial partners, investors, potential acquirers, whatever it is. that also was valuable is that right and so it was this constant balance of you know in some respects being in two places at once right is is being there on the ground to be to be credible to be authentic um and to show the commitment to helping build the ecosystem but at the same time maintaining the the the connectivity and the u.s authenticity to help them succeed in the United States.

9:22And so until we had the office, that was always a bit of a juggling act, right, of how to best do that. And then was it during that commuting phase, did that just kind of highlight your love for London, the desire to be there? Was that kind of just embellishing that feeling that you had an association to the city? Was that a kind of progressive thing or was it always i want to come here and put my kind of flag down and you know and be here so i will tell you it was a pretty it was a pretty simple thought which was you know if you go back to the late 90s as i mentioned you know i was in that sort of silicon alley environment and that was really the kind of the beginning of the new york tech ecosystem right um and that kind of started up around let's say the flat iron district and areas around that and then scaled around um, men, men, Manhattan.

10:17And today, you know, depending on the metrics that you look at, you know, New York is either the second biggest startup ecosystem in the world or joint with London, the number two startup ecosystem in the world. I mean, it really is Bay area, New York, London, and New York and London, maybe number two joint. And one of the things that I saw about London pretty quickly in 2011 and 2012, is I was like, this reminds me of being in New York in the late nineties. right and the the buzz was just in in infectious right because it was still a point where the tech ecosystem was really centered around old street roundabout the so-called silica round roundabout area and you know i remember you could sort of sit outside of of of um shortage grind or be in ozone right on leonard street and and people would just walk in or walk by and you knew like half the people walking around if you were in the ecosystem um it was it was really early days it was really still contained it but it was really buzzy and and there was just i mean it just felt like the sky's the limit and remember that was also when the olympics were happening which was i think a really special time in london's history so you think about it and like cameron launches tech city the cameron government launches tech city in late 2010 you got the olympics in in 2012 and if you look at the venture investment into london tech companies right in 2010 these are figures from london and partners right if you look at 2010 there was 100 million dollars total invested into london tech companies the year of the the tech city initiative but by the time you get to um 2021 the high watermark there was 25 billion which means that the 2010s was just the bull run hockey stick as they say and to be there kind of at the beginning and run with you know go with that was in on top of just kind of how buzzy generally london was in the tech ecosystem at that time especially in the east london area that was that was a special time and place i remember vividly talking to people like um people at events like people who had been in the valley in the 90s or been in New York in the 90s and we said to each other like we are going to be nostalgic for these times in like 15 years like it was so clear that if this succeeded right these were going to be the sort of simpler times that that we all remembered the way that like in New York or the valley we think back to like the 90s it was it was amazing to live through that that's amazing and how did you I'm really interested how do you portray that to your colleagues because you're obviously there representing a u.s law firm you're kind of absorbing the excitement the passion you know everything that's going on was that difficult to to translate talk us through that so i mean at first yeah i i think i think so um look i mean if you got to think back right i mean it's hard to it's hard almost to think about now given how established the UK and broader Europe are in the global tech ecosystem.

13:31But think back to like 2010, 2011, and 2012, you know, it was all pretty, pretty nascent, right? And, and, you know, it really was concentrated in Silicon Valley, Bay Area, and to some extent, New York, and maybe a couple other places and UK and Europe were just still finding its feet. You know, it's funny. And so, yeah, I mean, it wasn't the most obvious thing in the world to say, you know what, we're going to go to London and we're going to go build a tech practice. And what we're going to do is that we're going to help them with US expansion, US fundraising, and US exit. Back in 2011, not so obvious that that was the right answer.

14:12But I remember there were a couple inflection points. And I think my favorite one was in October of 2013, where um the new york times back when the new york times still people consumed it mostly on paper uh for those uh for those who might remember those days right um that above the fold right it was late october of of 2013 above the fold there was an article entitled technology on the thames and there was a picture on that um with um i think it was michael acton smith from mind candy at that at that point um and it was all about how the london tech ecosystem was growing and it was going to become like the world's next big you know startup hub and you know especially if you're a new yorker if it's above the fold in the new york times that means something right that that that's legit um and and i remember that that that actually felt like like it legitimized a lot of what i was doing at that point um and and that was helpful right but then you know more and more deals were happening um and i think what what what really what really changed things if you fast forward a few years what really changed things especially in the uk are two two two things two two two deals first one is when um andreason horowitz invested into transferwise now called wise and um i think it was ben horowitz wrote a post about the investment and and as part of that post they said you know that they'd seen transferwise earlier they hadn't invested in part because they were based in in london and and they wouldn't you know going forward you know they understand that there's a lot of great stuff coming out of london and and you know that that really kind of flagged for people that hey um you know people in us like hold on maybe we should start paying attention to this i think the other one um around that same time was when uh improbable um raised about 500 million um from from softbank right softbank and andreason actually i think it was um and and that was the kind of deal that you typically would only see for the most part in the valley but that was coming out of london or yeah it was coming out of london um and and i think those two transactions in particular kind of got silicon valley to sit up and take notice and if you look at when the u.s funds started to come to london first remotely in a meaningful way and then on the ground i mean And there are a few dozen American funds now with offices in London.

17:02I think it's traced back to that era when you started to see companies raise what to that point would have been thought of as Silicon Valley style raises and funds, some of the leaving funds taking notice. Dan, you've made the trip, you know, transatlantic trip from the U.S. to the U.K. And Matt, you went the opposite way. We talked about that in one of the first episodes, going the opposite way. And we talk a lot about the business aspects of that. But can you kind of both talk to kind of the personal aspects of that? You have family, you have friends, you move to a new country. What is the human side or the personal side of that journey look like?

17:46So I'm happy to start. It is not easy, right? And, you know, I will remain ever grateful to my family, right, to, you know, to sticking with me through that and having faith, right? I mean, at the end of the day, for the individuals going through this tool who are building, whether you're a tech founder who's thinking about expanding the United States or someone like me at a law firm thinking about going the other way, there's a professional and a personal aspect to it. And it's and they are inextricably intertwined. And and one impacts the the the other. And, you know, you've got to realize that as exciting as it might be for you, maybe both scary and exhilarating at the same time.

18:44Right. It presents a challenge to your to your family, especially if you've got kids as well, but not just your spouse. but if you've got you got kids as as well um you know i don't have a great answer for for how to make it easier other than um you know open communication and you know do everything that you can to try to make both work i mean you know i've i remember times where you know i i i literally you know flew across the atlantic and then went from the airport straight to a family event just because, you know, if I could do it, I would. Right. And, you know, you got to recognize that as much as you may be focused on building your business, whatever that is, your primary, your primary love, right.

19:44And your primary commitment is to your to your family, right. And and find finding a way to to make both of those work is not easy, but is a worthy, a worthy and necessary endeavor. yeah and 100 % just aligned with everything that Dan said and just from my perspective so I went over to the US it was actually a month after that article came out in October 2013 so I went the other way as you were coming coming coming over Dan and the one rule that me and my girlfriend at the time is now fortunately my wife um had was all she had to do was say i want to go home because one of the things for me and this is getting a you know into a couple of kind of deeper conversations is i never wanted anybody to feel trapped you know this was my adventure this was kind of like my aspirational journey this was you know i was driving it and she was you know accommodating and coming along and extremely supportive but i never wanted her to feel trapped and that was a huge component and you stated it you know brilliantly which is it's about open communication and that allowed us to have that open communication about it because there's no doubt about it whether you're going you know with a partner or you're going with a family in your you know backpack you're putting the pressures from them you're putting the pressures from the board you're putting the pressures from the business and the opportunity and and the journey that you're going on so it it is a lot and i totally agree with you there's there's no there's no science behind this there's no like rule book to follow it's very much a an art it's a communication it's collaborate around the problem ensure that people are enjoying the the journey as much as you but also be aware and i think this is the number one thing for me is you're going into a new environment that you need to learn, understand, and I think ultimately respect, because this is a different, you know, culture, way of life, way of being.

21:57And I think absorbing yourself in that, to me, is the number one thing that I always state to founders is jump in with two feet, go and learn, be eyes wide open, learn American. You know, I say it, And it sounds stupid, but really take the time to do that because that's going to be a couple of steps up in your personal professional life. If you're doing that with your spouse, your partner, that's going to be a great thing that you learn and enjoy and can be fruitful around together. And also it's fun. You know, that should be fun learning these things. So that's certainly kind of, you know, my mental model as I as I went in.

22:36I mean, I was, I was naive. I was, you know, you know, I had two suitcases and my wife, that's all we had. That's all we had. And then you're just building the foundations from there. yeah i mean one of the things that that i found is that prioritizing your family is actually prioritizing the business because if you know if let's say that you move or like when we moved full full full time to the to the the uk you know if the more settled that they got the more the easier it was for me to focus appropriately, right, with a, you know, with a good state of mind on, on the business, right. And I, and I think that that some, sometimes I think that that gets overlooked, that, you know, you're all focused on the business as you're building, not you personally, but one is focused on the building, building business, but you've got, you know, the rest of your family that's getting adjusted to this new environment.

23:43And the more that you make sure that they're adjusted, what I found is that the easier it was once I knew that they were in a good place, right, to be better in the professional bag. I totally agree. And I think, again, this is part of this podcast and what we and I feel extremely passionate about doing, which is elevating that human conversation. Because the conversation we're having now doesn't happen at the board level, probably doesn't happen at the founder level. It's very introverted. And what we've got to do is we have to elevate that. So therefore, people are prepared. We're talking about it.

24:22We're discussing it. And therefore, founder well-being, founder health is therefore elevated. Family well-being and family health is therefore elevated. So it's just great that we're kind of starting the conversation and making it, I think, applicable and available for everybody to have this dialogue when they are thinking about going over and being open about it. Now, you guys have both made the journey. and I think on the surface, right, from UK to US or US to UK, everyone speaks English. I watched a lot of the same TV shows growing up. It seems pretty similar. But what were the biggest cultural differences on the ground?

24:58Once you landed, what did you discover that was like, oh, this is actually different? What were the things that stand out? Well, the first time I landed, I found out pretty quickly you don't take a taxi from Heathrow into central. But there's that.

25:18but yeah i mean it's i i i will say that that living in a place and visiting a place are are two very different things and and you know deciding to you know build your life in a new place of the new a new country is is is very very different but what i will say i think at the to start is that don't assume that product market fit on one side of the atlantic means that you have product market fit on the other side of the Atlantic, right? It, it doesn't all translate equally, even if it's called the same thing on, on either side of the Atlantic, it may not be the same thing. And, you know, and that's one of the things that, that we learned, I particularly learned coming, coming to the, the, the UK is that the, the, the approach to consuming legal services is just very different in the UK than it is in the US.

26:17And it took me a little while to figure out why. I mean, I eventually did figure out why, which was, I think, helpful to build the business. And the why is just simply the litigation environment, right? Is that, you know, in the UK, you have this loser pays environment and a loser pays environment on legal fees means that it's less likely to have lawsuits in the US. Each side bears its own costs, which means it's more of a litigious environment. And that means the role of the lawyer is very, very different. It's actually built into the language right and it took me a little bit to understand this but right like in the uk like the the language that you use for hiring a lawyer is that you instruct a lawyer you tell them what to do in the united states the language of hiring a lawyer is um you take advice of counsel right they recommend to you a course of action that's funny a silicon valley partner of mine once it came to london someone said we're thinking about instructing you and his response was instruct i haven't been instructed since i got in trouble with my mother when i was six years old I don't understand what you mean.

27:16And so, or, you know, just kind of take that, you know, from another angle, you know, in the U.S., it's extremely common. I mean, really expected that if you're a venture backed tech company, like your lawyer is going to go to your board meetings every month as, you know, as an advisor to the company, as an advisor to the board. And in the U.K. and Europe, that's not really a thing. Certainly not standard. and um you know i've had i've had investors in the uk and europe say to me like lawyers at board meetings that sounds like the sign of a dysfunctional board and then i've had american vcs come to me and say that no one's going to board meetings that sounds like a dysfunctional board right and and and you would think like hold on it's just it's just legal it's just legal services it's got to be pretty much the same no right as i i often say it it's like it's the difference between football and football right i mean it's that it's like going to to the uk and europe and telling everyone that no no no it it's a ball that you throw trust me it's a ball that you throw i know that everything you've seen to date is that it's a ball that you kick in america it's a ball that you throw trust me on that one um that's not easy right and and but and i i'm spending a little bit of time on that because yeah i'm talking about in the context of legal but that At the end of the day, that lesson, that dynamic has nothing to do with legal service.

28:41It has to do with optimizing your product and service offering on one side of the Atlantic versus the other side of the Atlantic. And I think one of the pitfalls that we often see companies when they go transatlantic is that they assume what works on the one side is going to work on the other. And that may be true, but do not assume that that's going to be true. Because it's very, very, very possible that your product market fit you have on one side has no bearing whether your product market fit on the other side. Yeah. And, and I think just to, to, to build on that, but my, my experience is it was more kind of an energy slash cultural shift because you're going from, you know, I, I commuted for a while like Dan.

29:23So there was a kind of like immersion that I've actually, I actually had into the culture. So I recognize that, but you're actually going from a, maybe a computer says no, you know, kind of mentality in the UK where everything's safe, risk averse, got to put it through the models. So the exact opposite, which is, Hey, the opportunity is not big enough, right? You only want that amount of money. It's like the amount of innovation, desire, capital, I think just passion that is in that, you know, commerce and startup and venture world. To me, it's addictive. It really is. But you've got to play that game.

30:04You can't play your game that you're used to in the UK. And I think the key thing is you've got to adapt, you know, and adjust and then recognize what you're adjusting to. And the way that I describe it is I had to build an American version of Matt. I had to build Matt, the character, the American. So who is he? He's British. He's got a British accent. But he's got to meet the other entrepreneurs where they are in regards to work ethic, innovation, thinking big, and being able to kind of deliver on those things. So for me, it was a bit of a, oh, okay, I want to play in this game, but I've got to adjust my kind of my mental model of the game I'm getting into.

30:45And it's probably very, very good to go back to football, football, right? I was playing a different game, and I needed to develop the character that was that was kind of like ready to play that willing, able and, you know, enjoying the game, because if you're good at it, then you enjoy it. So that was certainly the big, big thing for me was just the energy and the hustle. And that was just fantastic to, I think, absorb, learn, adjust, and then really adapt in that. So, yeah, it was fantastic. What about, talk about your first business meeting. Matt, you and I have talked about this before. The icebreaker discussions pre-meeting are different, right?

31:29Talk about that a little bit. So here in the UK, we're very good at talking about two things, weather and football that you kick. Those are the two things that really get the conversation going and fill in the gaps and warm everybody up for like five minutes. I didn't have that in America going into sales meetings. I had, oh, where are you from? That was it. That was the only thing. I could not talk about NCAA Final Four. I did not know how the Eagles were going or the Yankees or whoever it might be. I didn't have that. So I needed to go away and learn it. And again, this is respect, you know, adjust and adapt.

32:15Right. I need to respect the culture that I was in, adapt and adjust. The other element that I really needed to understand was the significance and importance of universities and higher education. That is a very, very vital component when you're actually talking to Americans, because I think there's two things that really help their identity, which is the college that they went to and also kind of the area that they're from as well. So it's kind of like relating to both of those, really, because that is a lot of kind of identity from, you know, Americans. If you're a barbecue or if you're in a kind of in a meeting, it's understanding those and being able to discuss and talk and engage in conversations around those topics.

33:04So that comes into kind of my favorite phrase, which is learn American. And I think learn American is just respecting the culture that you're doing business in and understanding it. So, yeah, that is funny. It's funny about the academic credentials map, because I've been on stage with Dan. I have done live events. I've done webinars and I only know this, but I've never heard him say it in what three years. Dan graduated from Harvard Law School and he's never once said that in the UK in the US. I wouldn't know that. That's just an example. That's a big deal. But you've never said it once, Dan, any offense I've ever done with you.

33:42But if you're in the US, it would probably come up at some point. It never comes up in the UK. And Matt, I totally, I totally agree with you about, about both of those dynamics about the university or higher education and, uh, and place that you're, that you're from in most American conversations, certainly in most American business, uh, conversations. Yeah. Those, those two topics are pretty much front and center and, um, they, they never come up, especially the higher education point never comes up in. We're impressed, Dan, if it helps. Thank you.

34:18How did you bring it up? You did. I brought it up. It was definitely me, but it needs to be brought up. It's a big deal. It's pretty great.

34:26What about business in the U.S.? I've heard things about it being very different in the U.K. as far as getting introductions or transactional versus personal. Talk through those dynamics in both markets. Yeah, I mean, I will say that certainly in the United States, the warm intro, I think in all settings, is pretty important. I do think in general, it tends to be a little easier culturally to get meetings, whether it be with customers or whether it be with investors. So I think, again, I don't want to trade too much in stereotypes, but I do think that there's an entrepreneurial edge to the United States generally, where whether you're a customer in that context or an investor in that context, you've got a little bit of FOMO, right?

35:27Like you don't want to miss out on the potential opportunity that could help you with a big win, right? Whatever that win looks like in the context of being an investor or a customer. And so you might be more inclined to take the meeting, but then quicker to just sort of pass if it's not for you. Whereas I think in the UK, it's a little bit harder to get the meeting. But once you do, it's maybe a little bit easier to kind of go from there. And what the warm intro does is it just makes it that much easier to get the meeting because you end up trading on trust. Right. That if someone is willing to say, I am going to put a little bit of my personal capital on the line to vouch for this company and that individual is in the investor or the customers, you know, trusted network, that means something.

36:26right that like in the valley that's the currency of the realm as you know and and so the stronger that your network is and the more that you're willing to pay it forward the faster that you can go in in in the united states now look in the uk tech ecosystem there's some of that as well don't get me wrong but the us is very practiced in it and and and and that has been the approach certainly in tech business in the US for generations. And I've seen that as well. It's the university that you go to, you ask anybody from that, your altimeter from that university to introduce you, the likelihood 80 % they're going to do that.

37:10If you're from the same sorority, you know, I didn't even know what sorority was before I went, but now obviously versed in it, you can go to the members of sorority, say, hey, can you hit me up and introduce me to XYZ? I see that you're connected. Again, that to me is part of the open ecosystem that is more in America versus a closed ecosystem that does operate, from my perspective anyway, in the UK, you're less likely to do that. The second thing I'd say is, I think Americans are much more drawn to innovation and getting behind ideas. And I think that's two because I think there's two reasons.

37:48One is I think it's they want to kind of be behind that for their kind of career trajectory. But secondly is I think that's almost part of the American DNA as well, which is innovation, American dream, you know, hey, let's support it. What's the worst that could happen, which is kind of like a difference of how we actually tolerate and think about risk. Americans are very much like, go for it. Hey, got you. you know british people tend to be a little bit more like oh i've done the calculations and maybe we shouldn't do that so i think these again are just kind of like the the swing kind of of the of the cultural perspectives if you like and i think again it's just being aware that they exist and then like learning and evolving through that so i totally agree i want to pick up on what what what you said about the american dna because i think that that is it's perceptive and it's an important point to keep in mind americans on on average and i talked to a lot of companies about this in the uk and europe who are looking to sell into the united states americans on average are willing to be more aggressive in whether it's purchasing innovation or trying out innovation or whatever it is they're willing to do more to gain some sort of incremental advantage than I think almost anywhere in the world, right?