Ditch hustle culture to build career longevity (Live podcast at ⁨Komedia in Brighton - 7 October 2026)

0:00The SEO Mindset hosts: Good evening, everybody. Got a woo even before we introduced ourselves. That's a good start.

0:06Search with Candour hosts: Can we do that again, please?

0:10The SEO Mindset hosts: Multiple woos. We're off to a good start.

0:11Search with Candour hosts: Music to my ears.

0:14The SEO Mindset hosts: Welcome to this very special live podcast. This is our ninth live podcast together. We're getting so many woos. I appreciate you. Thank you very much.

0:23Search with Candour hosts: It's going to be interesting if your voices can hold out.

0:27The SEO Mindset hosts: Can you keep wooing all night? That is the question. Yes, specifically to you, Greg, that is a challenge. If you don't know me, I am Jack Chambers-Ward. I am the host of the Search with Candor podcast, and I team up with these lovely duo of SEO mindset hosts. Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourselves and the podcast.

0:44Search with Candour hosts: Oh, gosh. What do I say here? I can't say that we're the go-to SEO podcast, because that would be a bit awkward. That would be very offensive, yeah. We are the two go-to SEO podcasts.

0:54The SEO Mindset hosts: Yeah, be diplomatic about it. Yeah, yeah.

0:57Search with Candour hosts: But yes, Sarah, Tasman, and we do the SEO Mindset podcast. Who is aware of the SEO Mindset podcast? Fabulous. I'm just here for my ego, really.

1:11The SEO Mindset hosts: That's all this is. It's just a big ego for the three of us, right? It's the Sarah show.

1:15Search with Candour hosts: Oh, okay. It's not. It's not. So what do we do with the podcast? Sarah and I started the podcast because we were hearing from so many people that they needed help on how to be in SEO, not just how to do SEO, not the technical stuff, but how to deal with confidence issues, well-being issues, how to progress their career, how to have more agency in their career. And both of us felt so passionate about it. And bearing in mind, this was the first conversation we'd ever had with each other. and we just said, why don't we start a podcast? Well, Sarah said, why don't we just start a podcast? Because that's Sarah's usual response.

2:00Search with Candour hosts: And so, yeah, we did. A few weeks later was our first recording. Yeah, don't talk to me because we'll end up starting a podcast together because that's my thing.

2:07The SEO Mindset hosts: That's how I'm here as well, I think.

2:09Search with Candour hosts: Oh, really?

2:10The SEO Mindset hosts: Well, yeah, this is how we ended up doing this.

2:12Search with Candour hosts: Oh, there you go. What about Search with Candor?

2:17The SEO Mindset hosts: Search with Candor is a weekly podcast where I interview the best and brightest minds across SEO and we've just launched season five as of this week. All about AI search and using AI in SEO and it's going to be a really cool episode where, of course, season entirely, talking a lot about what is going on right now and how to evolve your SEO techniques, strategies, what you need to change, what hasn't changed and lots of other stuff. And that's going to carry on throughout the rest of the year and into 2027 as well. And of course, more team-ups with these lovely duos. We always do this pretty much every six months or so, pretty much, don't we?

2:54The SEO Mindset hosts: And, yeah, that is out every Monday, the Search with Candid podcast. And we're going to do this podcast for about an hour or so. We'll wrap up about 8.30. You guys will then have a break after that. You can go and get drinks, have some more pizza. I think there's more pizza left over, so go and get more food and drinks and things like that.

3:10Search with Candour hosts: There's also sauce, and the sauce is good. Plenty of sauce.

3:13The SEO Mindset hosts: I hear the hot honey was described as weird but tasty to me earlier. So if you want to try some weird but tasty hot honey, give it a go.

3:22Search with Candour hosts: I'm sorry for this joke, but that's a bit like us.

3:25The SEO Mindset hosts: Hey, there we go. Weird but tasty.

3:27Search with Candour hosts: Well, I've said it now. That's a bit inappropriate, mate. Sorry.

3:30The SEO Mindset hosts: Usually I'm the one doing the inappropriate jokes here.

3:32Search with Candour hosts: Sorry.

3:33The SEO Mindset hosts: Yeah, so after that break, we'll have about half an hour break, and then at 9 o 'clock we'll come back for a Q &A so you guys can get involved. We'll have a little mic we can run around, and you can tell us your stories about the topic of this episode and ask us questions, ask each other questions, share stories and get involved basically because the topic is all about ditching hustle culture and building career longevity and i know that is a topic that has been pretty hot and discussed a lot a lot of us been thinking about how stressed we are and how busy everyone is all the time and it's a topic we thought we really wanted to talk about we always try and come up with a topic that is very relevant and very topical and we couldn't do all of this without our wonderful sponsors.

4:16The SEO Mindset hosts: We'll kick things off with our gold sponsor, Systrix.

4:22The SEO Mindset hosts: Systrix has supported us since day one. They have been an amazing, amazing support. And there's a few guys from the Systrix team here. And I'll pass it over to Mr. Steve Payne who will give us a little introduction, give us some data, give us some info.

4:34Search with Candour hosts: He's put his glasses on, so he means his business. He's got his glasses on.

4:37The SEO Mindset hosts: He told me he wrote a poem. I don't know if that's actually true or not. And I'll let you take the mic, Steve.

4:44Search with Candour hosts: I feel there's a bit more of a heckle culture here than in the last location. I'm a bit worried now. As I was trying to prep data for this and thinking about it, it got kind of a bit personal for me because I realised how much of an important topic this is at this time. And I wrote a few words, and unfortunately I can't commit them to memory, so Jack has allowed me three minutes just to read through what I wrote down, and I hope it sort of helps us. If you disagree, don't ask questions, wait until afterwards, please.

5:20Search with Candour hosts: Right, so we've got real intelligent in the house and I know a lot of you from previous SEO Mindset events. I know there's some great people here. And tonight is about our jobs and the tasks we do in our industry and it's about how hustle culture could impact that, how it could impact the process of creating natural expertise and natural character, which are the key traits needed for marketing, of course. The pressure is on, business processes are speeding up, and it's affecting how humans are working. Now, some stimulation and some machine support is good, of course, but too much pressure is unlikely to result in sustainable development of the traits I just mentioned.

6:19Search with Candour hosts: So, we have the chance here tonight to talk about how to define sustainable success through humans. and I hope we can help those who don't understand how negative hustle culture could be for many people and highlight the ways in which we can spot the problems created by those negative effects. Personal and transparent output is the core of the digital marketing business and I see all time in the data that I prep for data journalists. In the data I prepped for today which you might be talking about later. The most visible URL was there because it was a personal story from a guy called Luke, age 20, on the Young Minds charity website.

7:07Search with Candour hosts: It's a real story from a real person, and it's the most visible URL for the data set we run for this. We talk, we exchange, we make mistakes, and we learn at a depth and speed that AI can't keep up with. it's a post-it note on a fridge compared to the depth and the complexity of stuff that we do as humans. While AI can speed up some SEO audits and fix up some technical issues, it can't speed up the development of natural expertise and natural character, the two key traits that I mentioned that are a prerequisite for a strong entity network. You're all more valuable than you think. so thank you for letting us sponsor this that's Cistrix and Majestic 2 who I forgot my roll up sorry about that and to help bring new lovely people together and I hope this great mindset here can help us keep the industry on track I'm confident that we have the intelligence here to do that so thank you for that I forgot to bring merch though oh they're booing you Steve but we do have a booth Oh!

8:20Search with Candour hosts: Stand 19, next to Screaming Frog. And I brought my long-tailed dinosaur with me this evening. He's also got a very long head, but okay, we'll ignore the long head. So if you come to the booth tomorrow and mentioned long-tailed dinosaur, I've got juggling balls, I've got some beanie hats, and I'd be happy to give them to you. All right? So enjoy the evening, and thank you for the three minutes, guys. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Steve.

8:53The SEO Mindset hosts: Left me hanging there, Steve. How dare you?

8:55Search with Candour hosts: There you go.

8:56The SEO Mindset hosts: Thank you. And Steve already did a little bit of a job for me. Our other sponsor is Majestic, as you can see with the bunch of here. Thank you. I know a couple of guys from the Majestic team are here as well. And we have actually got some books to give away during the Q &A. So if you do want to ask a question or share a story, we have a copy of SEO in 2026, this huge tome of SEO knowledge full of, I believe it is 117 experts. I don't know how many pages there are, including a few faces I see in the crowd here as well. They'll soon be launching SEO in 2027 as well, but at the end of this year. And I know it will be full of 100 plus other amazing experts and insights for the following year as well.

9:36The SEO Mindset hosts: And something I think a lot of people kind of underestimate is how much work goes into something like that. the fact that it is hand selected by David Bain and the group at Majestic going through and interviewing all of these experts, doing a YouTube series and a podcast series that goes along with everything that is written in there as well is really, really valuable I think it will give you a lot of ideas and inspiration if you are looking for new things to think about in your SEO work so if you want to ask Q &A share a story later on you get a free copy of the book and the next book will be coming out very soon so thank you to Majestic for sponsoring us.

10:11The SEO Mindset hosts: Please give another round of applause and another woo. I think that's all of the woos now, right? I think we're actually getting to the topic.

10:17Search with Candour hosts: Just one more.

10:18The SEO Mindset hosts: One more woo? Yas! We get a yas as well. Thank you, Jordan.

10:25Search with Candour hosts: I love that.

10:26The SEO Mindset hosts: 10 out of 10. Feels appropriate. Feels appropriate. So, should we get stuck into the topic then? Should we actually talk about this? And something Steve touched on I think is interesting from your data, Steve, that you shared with us. Hustle culture had a negative association with it. When we were looking at the search intent and looking at the data, it had an inherent sort of negative association to it when it was categorised. How do we feel about hustle culture, the three of us? Sarah, how do you feel about hustle culture?

10:55Search with Candour hosts: I get to go first.

10:56The SEO Mindset hosts: You get to go first.

10:57Search with Candour hosts: Okay. Does anyone here have mixed emotions around hustle culture? Yeah?

11:03The SEO Mindset hosts: A couple of people.

11:04Search with Candour hosts: To be completely honest with you, we hustled for tonight.

11:12Search with Candour hosts: And the reason why I have mixed emotions is I completely understand the negative connotations around hustle culture. I understand how it's toxic. I understand how it's bad. But also, if we're being realistic, I don't think you can go through life building a career without any hustle. and the thing for me is I've hustled to get to certain points where I am today so for example starting the SEO mindset podcast that we had to hustle when we first first started because no one knew us and we had to break into the industry we had to get people to know us and I'm a freelancer and I've been doing that for two years.

12:03Search with Candour hosts: To get my first client, I had to hustle. It didn't just come. So I wish, wish, wish that we could eradicate hustle culture, but I don't think we can because sometimes it's needed. And the thing that we're going to be talking tonight is career longevity because the issue with hustle culture when it's all the time and when we see hustle culture really having an impact on us. So I really got mixed emotions around it because without hustling, I wouldn't be where I am now, right? But I understand that it's not the long-term solution. You can't do it all the time. So the issues is when you're hustling and you're always putting work first ahead of your own mental well-being, your own personal relationships when you're putting it in front of your family your partner your children whatever it is so i'm really torn i'm really torn on it i think um the word hustle conjures up images of working really hard neglecting yourself or neglecting your loved ones and it gets merged with oh then you shouldn't be anti you shouldn't be ambitious.

13:26Search with Candour hosts: I've got no problem with hard work. I've got no problem with being ambitious. You can be ambitious and work hard, but not feel like you are hustling, because a lot of it is that stress you put on yourself. Short term, working hard, hustling, if you want to use that word, is fine. It's when it's long term, when it becomes your identity. This is who I am. This is what I do. This is just the way the world is. That, for me, is a problem. And I think we're living in a world where it's not us making the choices. The industry is creating this, again, this norm that this is what you need to get ahead.

14:10Search with Candour hosts: Short term, fine, when it's... But if you are then sacrificing yourself, that's where I have an issue.

14:18The SEO Mindset hosts: Yeah, I think that's a... You mentioned going freelance areas. I think that's a common thing a lot of people experience when starting a new business, doing a startup, going freelance, or even joining a new company. Like my previous experience joining my first agency eight, nine years ago now. And it was just an absolute culture shock from going from a fairly small internal office, doing a little bit of digital marketing here and there, suddenly having 15 clients to deal with and all this kind of stuff being thrown at me and just having to nail down and do as much work as I possibly could and I was just working probably like eight till eight basically every day and completely burning myself out and I felt like I had to do that to kind of prove myself in the early days and like you said Sarah it is necessary sometimes but I think when it becomes the expectation and the norm when that the culture of it being you know you can hustle for a little bit turning it into a culture that turns into us pressuring each other whether it's your bosses your peers, your colleagues, friends, whatever it is, that's when it becomes a problem, when it becomes an external force that you're expected to hustle all the time, whether you are ready or not, whether you're tired or not, whether you're full of pizza and drinks or not.

15:28You get that kind of thing where, you know, you end up working weekends.

15:32The SEO Mindset hosts: And I've totally been guilty of this, of, oh, just do a little bit of the weekend. And then you realize, like, I've done five hours of extra work, and I'm not going to get paid. I didn't tell you what I was doing over time. I should have probably told somebody I was planning to do this. I didn't get paid for it. And I've done that so many times in, like I said, previous jobs and things like that. It became a bit of a norm. And I realized, you know, having conversations with my bosses and my colleagues where I work now at Cando, it was real kind of, I need to slow down and not be pushing myself.

16:00The SEO Mindset hosts: I need to pace myself. And doing things like the live podcast, going to conferences, needs to fit in to my work, not just be an extra thing I do on top of everything else. And I had really kind of pushed myself to hustle, hustle, hustle, grow, grow, grow. We need more listeners, more subscribers over and over and over again. But actually, that's not a sustainable thing. And that's not something I was able to do long term. And I kind of caught myself getting into that habit again, and managed to kind of pull myself back. Have you guys felt that sort of external pressure at all from bosses and things like that?

16:33Search with Candour hosts: Yes. And I put a lot of pressure on myself as well.

16:38The SEO Mindset hosts: I knew that about you, Sarah. I'll kind of lead you into that.

16:43Search with Candour hosts: Like, I feel like I'm that swan analogy. You know, when someone looks like they're gliding. Well, I mean, I hope I look like I've got my shit together. Sometimes, maybe not. But I feel, you know when you see a swan and they're naturally gliding and they're just making stuff happen, but underneath their feet are going, that's how I feel. Anyone else feel like that? so we've got the top half you know serene and underneath it's a shit show uh tasman i hate to say this but i don't put a lot of pressure on myself this is why tasman is the zen queen because it's not worth it because i decided a few years ago that the thing that i was going to protect was my peace because when I have that peace I can be the swan gliding and even underneath the water I'm not I'm not what you do and instead you just you just glide you just glide through life but I think um you know you talked about the pressure somebody mentioned burnout I think there's a quieter problem with hustle culture and that's when you become disconnected with yourself You're doing everything that needs to be done, everything that needs to be done at work, everything that needs to be done at home, and on the surface of it or from the exterior, people think, oh, she knows what she's doing, or they've got it all together.

18:15Search with Candour hosts: But actually, you've just lost yourself in making sure everything is done for everyone else. You've lost yourself. And I've been talking to a few people in the industry about this topic recently. the things I hear that I don't know what I want anymore I feel like a shell of myself I can't rest without feeling guilty and that's worrying and it's not just worrying for individuals it's worrying for communities for families, for relationships but it should also be worrying organisations because the things that they need their employees to be good at curiosity, creativity, making decisions on the spot, good decisions.

19:01Search with Candour hosts: All of that needs bandwidth. And if you don't have that bandwidth, you're not going to be able to perform well at work. So when Steve was saying, you know, this is an industry problem, it is because organisations don't just have employees, they have people, and those people have lives. and if those people are going back home, turning the laptop off, but then turning it back on again and not resting, they're not going to come back to work the next day at their best. So I think you can go through life making sure that everyone is sorted, everyone else has got what they need, but if you've got to the point where you don't even know what you need, That's the problem.

19:55Search with Candour hosts: Burnout is a very visible... I say visible, but people seem less... more able to say, I'm feeling burnt out. But when was the last time you heard someone saying, I'm lost? I don't even know what I want anymore. That, I think, is a bigger problem. Can I just add something? I know this is going to sound really weird, but I don't think I know how to rest.

20:23The SEO Mindset hosts: That says a lot about you, Sarah. But I kind of agree. I kind of agree.

20:26Search with Candour hosts: I mean, my partner Tash is in the audience, and she's probably, like, nodding.

20:29The SEO Mindset hosts: I can see her nodding.

20:30Search with Candour hosts: Many, yeah, her head's going to fall off in this way.

20:34The SEO Mindset hosts: Is it that constant pressure to be productive and doing new things?

20:38Search with Candour hosts: Yes, because someone pointed out to me, so when I used to live with my sister and brother-in-law, someone pointed out to me that when we would, like, talk about our days, I'd have to say all the ways that I've been productive. and it wasn't until like, ah, yeah, like you don't always have to be productive. You can have a day to yourself. You can have a day sitting in a spa, can't you, babe? And, you know, being in a sauna. All day, every day. That is the dream. But I'm going to add to that. So we seem to have become a community of people whose self-worth is measured by how much they got done. Yes.

21:17Search with Candour hosts: Instead of just saying, I'm just going to rest because I want to rest. Or, I'm going to rest because I deserve some rest. You don't even have to use the word deserve. Why do you have to earn rest? You don't have to earn it. Do you know what? I get to a point that if I'm ever horizontal, I fall asleep. Thank you. The amount of times I've had to re-watch films, hangover, Hangover I watched four times because I would fall asleep at the same point, wake up at the same point. Yeah. So, yeah. I need to work on that. You do? I do.

21:58The SEO Mindset hosts: I think there is that pressure of being constantly productive and something we touched on on the last live podcast where we talked about using AI in work and how that can help you be productive, but actually it causes a lot more work and turns out it is not actually benefiting the industry as much as we think it is if we're measuring it just by productivity. There's a few quotes and a few articles that we talked about last time, and I read them again for this show, because do we really need more stuff on the internet? Do we need things done faster necessarily? No, there is plenty of stuff on the internet.

22:35The SEO Mindset hosts: There's arguably too much stuff on the internet already, which is something Google is having a problem with, with its index already. is already bloated with spam and crap. We don't need more things faster constantly. Everything is productive all the time. And I totally agree with you, Sarah. I have that feeling as well of, I should probably be doing that thing. If I go and chill out for half an hour, I should probably be doing that and I should probably be doing this. I even get into the habit of not re-watching things or re-doing things because I feel like I need to watch something new or do something new because I need to feel productive.

23:04Search with Candour hosts: Or you multitask at all times.

23:07The SEO Mindset hosts: Constant multitasking. Yeah. Yeah, so whenever there's Netflix, I'm like,

23:11Search with Candour hosts: ooh, what can I be doing with this time?

23:12The SEO Mindset hosts: Can I answer some emails while watching this thing? Like, yeah, maybe I can.

23:14Search with Candour hosts: Can I push more ticket sales to tonight?

23:18The SEO Mindset hosts: Exactly, yeah. But I think the AI question and the topic, obviously, something we discussed in the live show, which is on our podcast feeds, if you weren't there, you can go and check that out. But there is a real kind of issue with that more is better. Like you said, Tasman, like defining yourself by productivity. if you're measuring yourself only by how much you're doing rather than the quality or the actual way you're doing, do you feel like you are successful if you are not producing as much? But it is better if you get, I don't know, better reviews or better feedback from your bosses or just feel better about yourself and it gives you more time and more space to relax.

23:58Search with Candour hosts: But this is another problem because what is success? Do people sit down and think about what is success to me? Or do we just go by the script that the world gives us? And also this thing about I must be doing, but you can just be. And I feel that people are looking for recognition from the external, validation from the external, because everything has to come from out there. and the answer has to come from out there because the alternative is to look within and people seem to be scared to look within. What do I want? Oh, actually, I don't want that. Because we've had decades of this. Spend more time at work, earn more money to buy a bigger house so you can fill it with more things that you have to buy and you can spend more time cleaning this big house and more dust.

25:00Search with Candour hosts: And then, you know what, the price of living goes up, so you all have to go and work, shed loads more. And if that's what you want, then fine, do it. But if it's not, ask yourself the question, what does success mean to me? What does that mean? How do I want to live my life? Because it just feels as if too many of us are following the script that somebody else has given us and are not feeling fulfilled. I've just thought of there is a really good, I think it was done by Harvard, but like the happiness, yeah? So it was proving or like showing how there is a cut-off point of where more money gives you more happiness because obviously we need money.

25:46Search with Candour hosts: We live in a capitalist society, so we need money for things. What is that something of law where you've got shelter?

25:56The SEO Mindset hosts: Maslow's Hierarchy of Leeds, yeah.

25:58Search with Candour hosts: Thank you. So you obviously need stuff for those things. And then obviously when you've got a bit more income, then you can treat yourself. But there was a really interesting, like it's a bit of a hockey stick, isn't it? Where there comes a point where more money doesn't bring you more happiness. And like you say, Tasman, if your success is tied to making more money because you think that is what success should look like, you're just always going to be chasing more more more because as you get more money you can buy more stuff but even in that so i know people who could retire now and they are determined to make as much money as possible to plow it straight into a trust fund which will then help other people so again it's why do you want more money and with this maslow thing so maslow went around different communities and found that some communities did not conform to his theory because he went to one community and said, who's the richest person here?

27:03Search with Candour hosts: And when he went and met this richest person, that person had nothing because that society's definition of rich was who gives away the most. so you know we have or we keep trying to look for the answers in a philosophy or what somebody else is saying sit with yourselves sit with yourselves and ask yourself what do you want your life to look like and work on that because then when somebody says do that thing and if it doesn't fit you know it doesn't fit and you're more likely to say that doesn't work for me

27:49The SEO Mindset hosts: the other half of this conversation is the career longevity side of things as well right so smooth

27:55Search with Candour hosts: I know right what a segue professional podcasting

27:59The SEO Mindset hosts: and that is I think something that obviously ties into kind of the other side of the coin almost of household culture we're saying how that is not a sustainable thing that is not something you want to be pushing yourself right to the limit all the time because you will burn yourself out so I guess why is career longevity something you think is an important thing to aim for why is an important goal to strive for in your career Sarah I knew you were looking at me

28:28Search with Candour hosts: and do you know what when I was writing my notes for this I've used a leaky pen so I've got a right smudge show here so I'm just gonna have to like see what comes out my mouth right it's dangerous dangerous So ask me the question again, because I've derailed myself just then.

28:44The SEO Mindset hosts: Why is career longevity an important thing to set as a goal for yourself? What's something to strive for?

28:49Search with Candour hosts: Why I want to come away from hustle culture and move more towards career longevity is because I want space to breathe. I want space to think and reflect and actually have a bit of a plan for myself. Because I'm at a point now where I've been freelancing for two years. Other bits and bobs are going really well. And I think I'm to a point now where I need to ask, okay, so what is my five-year plan? What is my 10-year plan? What do I want mine and Tasha's life to look like in 5, 10, 15 years? I know that we've got a wedding to pay for somehow. Jesus. Thank you. I was nearly going to say you're all invited, but then...

29:43Search with Candour hosts: Careful. We'll be doing it over a live podcast. Yes.

29:50The SEO Mindset hosts: We're hosting your... We're breaking the news now. We are hosting your wedding, by the way. Me and Tasman.

29:55Search with Candour hosts: Oh, gosh.

29:56The SEO Mindset hosts: Sponsored by Sisters. Thank you, Steve. And Majestic. Can I have a three-minute slot?

30:01Search with Candour hosts: Yeah. What is love?

30:04The SEO Mindset hosts: Steve is the efficient...

30:06Search with Candour hosts: Long-town Dino plushies.

30:07The SEO Mindset hosts: There we go. There we go.

30:10Search with Candour hosts: Right, back on track, Sarah. Yeah, so I think with career longevity, I want to set myself goals because sometimes I get overwhelmed because I'm like, life is happening. There's so much stuff that I could go for and I get overwhelmed by that. So I think what career longevity will make me do is have a think, have a reflect and be like, you know what, what is it that I want? How does life look? I've got clients, which is great. Do I want to hire some associates that can help me so I can have less pressure off me? Certain things that me and Tash want to strive for, the wedding, buying a house, getting another dog baby.

30:57Search with Candour hosts: Do you know what I mean? I was going to say dogs are life. Yes, they are. So I think career longevity is better because it gives you a chance to think, okay, what is it that I actually want to do? Because then that will help you stop hustling because you can have more of a plan of, okay, this is where I want to end up. And then you can sort of work your way back. I think that's a great way of doing anything, isn't it? Like you've got your own goal inside and you work your way back. Okay, how do I reach that goal? So then whenever something shiny of, oh, sorry, you could do this. I could be like, that looks lovely, but no, I need to stay on track because I am the biggest yes person.

31:41Search with Candour hosts: The reason why I start so many bloody podcasts, probably. But I don't know. I need to learn to say no more. And I need to learn that it's okay to say no. And with career longevity and having a plan, I'll be able to say no because I've got a plan. and I know that the thing that I say no to will mean that I can say yes to something else. Hopefully there was some sense in all of that. You know, I totally agree with Sarah. It's about making the choices that are right for you and where you want your career to go. I was working with a coach a few months ago and she said, where do you want to be in 10 years' time?

32:22Search with Candour hosts: I said, retired? And she said, you won't. So just figure out what it is that you do want to do. Not in this economy. You want to be on a beach with a vimp day. I've stopped drinking vimp day. Oh, you've heard it here. Too many e-numbers.

32:42Search with Candour hosts: But it's about finding that career you thrive in. And you might not get it tomorrow. But if you have an idea, these are the things I want to do, these are the skills I want to use, and start moving intentionally into that field. The way I like to look at it is if you imagine your life is a house and your career is one room of the house, but the foundation is you, so your physical health, your mental health, your confidence, your well-being, your self-esteem, your self-worth, your sense of purpose, whatever it is that makes up you, If that career is crushing that, that's a no-no. If that career is strengthening your foundation, that's where you should start stepping more into.

33:35Search with Candour hosts: And I think often we just think of a job as a job, and we are okay being battered. It's not okay to be battered. It's about thriving, because that's what's going to give you the most satisfaction. So when I think about where do I want to be and what sort of work do I want to be doing in the next five years, ten years, a lot of it is about giving back. A lot of it is about actually I'd like to do a bit more one-to-one work because I find that more purposeful. And just making those intentional choices.

34:12The SEO Mindset hosts: Yeah, I think the intentional choices is the thing I realized. like I said my previous job in the previous agency was literally 15 clients and it was just absolute chaos and it was a I'm sure some of you have heard this story before I've told the story of why I chose to join candor when I did because I was not getting paid enough for what I was doing a bunch of people left in the team I was in and I ended up being the second most senior person but still on my starting wages so I had this kind of conversation with my boss because I had kind of got the offer from Canada. And they were like, okay, let's see how much we can match that offer and all this kind of stuff.

34:48The SEO Mindset hosts: They basically doubled my salary overnight. I was like, couldn't you have been paying me somewhere close to that anyway? And it was that kind of almost like disrespect in a way. And I thought I could stay here. And they did technically offer me more money. But I thought, you know, chatting to the team at Canada at the time, understanding it would be closer to three to five clients you're managing rather than 15. there's opportunities to do podcasting to do things like this go to conferences it was a much more open welcoming kind of environment that is much more my speed so that felt like the right move to me because I could feel myself burning out like I said there was definitely that hustle bro culture-y kind of stuff in that office at the previous agency compared to what we have at Canada still an agency it's still fast-paced and stuff like that and I know a lot of colleagues and friends find that agency life is too much and make the right decision to go in-house.

35:44The SEO Mindset hosts: That's absolutely the right decision if you want to have a change of pace, do something different. There are different ways we work in different roles and different companies. And I often find it's those choices of not necessarily where can I make the most money, but where will I be happier? Where will I be able to be proud of my work and be able to do this long-term without hating myself, wanting to quit, all that and burning out.

36:09Search with Candour hosts: I think, by the way, I can never see you as a hustle bro.

36:13The SEO Mindset hosts: Funny enough, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not. That's why we're here.

36:18Search with Candour hosts: But I think, fair point. I think something that I struggled with early on in my career is I didn't know better. So I'm guessing that a lot of us in the room has had that situation where we've worked in an agency or we've had a job where it was just too much, so much pressure, too many clients, not being paid enough, like wearing so many hats. And I think part of it is not knowing that that's not okay, because that seemed to be the norm for me. And it was my first career, it was my first job in an agency. And I didn't know better. And I think that's why it's important to have these kind of conversations, because I think a lot of the times people end up suffering from this hustling and burnout often when it's too late isn't it and it's always funny as well because whenever you go to a conference there's always the mindset section and the people that need to be in those talks will never pick it um so yeah i and not that I'm saying we should force everyone to like go to the go to our talk but they should always come to these talks right um no but it's just I don't know there just needs to be more awareness and we need to be having these conversations and it's okay to also I didn't know that I could admit to not being okay I didn't know that I could admit to struggling and that happens a lot as well like you just crack on because you think that's what's expected of you um so yeah and i'm fortunate now that i know better and i know what i want to strive for and i know what a toxic work environment looks like but there's a lot of people that are still in it because they just think that's the norm and that's that's sad isn't it and the job market is tough

38:22The SEO Mindset hosts: right now right even if you're trying to i know a lot of people in our industry are going freelance and trying and trying that route i know you've done that sarah and and tasman you're freelance as well and having these conversations with people it's like it gives me so much freedom to i can do the school run and then just work a little bit later in the evening or i can have an opportunity to go swimming on my lunch break or whatever it is there's little things that you wouldn't be able to do if you're going into the office five days a week it might not be making you the most money and you might have to, as you said Sarah, do a bit of hustling to get new clients and things like that but if you're able to balance that with the things you love and the things that matter it makes it more sustainable in the long run and for me that ends up being things where the flexible work hours means I can do other stuff in the morning if I need to just chill out and watch a movie or whatever it is I can start a little bit later finish a little bit later and there's the ability there to manage my time a little bit better rather than you have to be in the office at 8 30 you have to be here until 5 30 every single day which i think is hopefully a little bit outdated and old-fashioned now but i was speaking to someone the other day who has five days in the office again they brought that back yeah there was a couple of groans from the audience there exactly yeah they obviously they went through the whole covid thing and then they were the last i think it was june of this year they were like right Everyone is back in the office five days a week.

39:52The SEO Mindset hosts: And everybody just went, why? We've been working fine. We've been making just as much money and being just as productive and all that kind of stuff as we have for the last two years. So why does it matter? Yeah, yeah, probably having that control. And I know there's that kind of thing where, you know, people need to see that people are, you need to at least look busy even if you're not actually doing work. And that is totally, yeah, I'm totally productive. I'm looking busy rather than actually doing work you care about. And I've totally been guilty of that before. Totally like just trying to, I'm just finding myself work to do rather than actually doing something that's worth it and focusing on the things that matter.

40:31The SEO Mindset hosts: Just being like, oh, I need to find something else to do. I need to be productive. I need to do more, more, more, more, and just push myself, keep pushing myself. But that's not sustainable.

40:39Search with Candour hosts: I think there's also a point as well that something that I try and do because yes I work from home but that is also has its negatives because there's not necessarily a known cut-off point and a known end point so obviously when you're going into an office you commute there and then you do your work and then you have to commute home so sort of things that I do is I set sort of routines of in the morning that is when I take Benny the dog for a walk um yeah he is a glorious dog glorious dog um and then when i'm finishing my work day i try and finish it again with taking ben out because that sort of takes me away from my laptop and work mode and gives me chance to touch grass touch a tree go and smell air that's a weird way of saying it but yeah i think it's just looking after yourself at the end of the day isn't it and and don't get me wrong there's times where and again tasha's going to be nodding her head where it's like seven eight o 'clock ben's pouring at me like i'm meant to have gone mum like two hours ago but i i do try and i think having set routines and stuff helps can we get a touch grass touch

42:06The SEO Mindset hosts: trees, was it smell air? Yes. We need that on a t-shirt, I think.

42:11Search with Candour hosts: That's the three principles to live by, people. There we go. Exactly.

42:19So, kind of

42:20The SEO Mindset hosts: thinking of that, live, laugh, smell. There we go. Exactly. Smell air. Don't just be smelly.

42:27Search with Candour hosts: I think we need the air on the end, you know. Otherwise, it could confuse people. It gets really weird. It gets really weird, and this conversation's getting weird so tasman over to you what was the question which which air do you like to smell

42:45The SEO Mindset hosts: pass for what kind of things can you do to build that career longevity what kind of things can we do to make it more achievable to aim towards that kind of goal so i think you know both of

42:59Search with Candour hosts: you've given lots of really good examples, and I think those are examples of things you can do day in and day out more related to well-being. With career longevity, it's an opportunity to zoom out a little bit. What do you want your career to look like for the next 5, 10, 15 years? I'm going to tell you all a story. Apologies if you've heard it. You probably have, but I'm going to say it anyway. When we were in lockdown, I was working in an SEO team it was really busy burnt out and we had to take a week off but there was nowhere to go but our managers were saying tough you know you just have to take a week off and I asked myself if I could go anywhere where would I go and I said to myself I want to go to a yoga retreat in Kerala well that wasn't going to happen in Milton Keynes but I used all my imagination I created a retreat with a program I ordered in coconut water you fully committed fully committed and I gave myself the space to ask myself what is it I wanted to do now I'd been doing personal development for a long time so I had the tools day one I did some journaling I reflected what sort of roles have Have I enjoyed?

44:20Search with Candour hosts: What haven't I enjoyed? And on day two, my manager rang me and said, there is a meeting that you've got to log on to. So I logged on to it the next day, and to my horror, it was a restructuring meeting. And to my worst horror, the roles that they were sending offshore, one of them was mine. So in my week of bliss, on day three I was now being made redundant and I spent that whole day crying I was I felt awful I felt like I'd been betrayed because ironically I'd been doing my job and helping them build a well-being platform for their employees so just it just did not feel right but then on the third day fourth day I had a choice I could carry on crying or I can go back to Kerala so I went back to Kerala.

45:16Search with Candour hosts: But I had a different focus. Okay, what do I want to do now with my life? And I'd wanted to become a coach for a long time and then took the plunge. So with career longevity, give yourself the space to ask yourself those questions, those open-ended questions. Give yourself space to take your time answering it. You don't have to figure it out in that one day. Let your mind mull over it. Write down ideas. Think about, you know, at the end of your career, what are the things that you might regret if you haven't tried? And I think organizations have an important role to play in it because all of this takes self-awareness, self-leadership, agency.

46:03Search with Candour hosts: Have those conversations with your team members. Get to know them. Learn what they want to do. because it could fit in with what you want them to do. But what it gives them is a better relationship with you. And if they feel that you are interested in their growth, they trust you more. They're going to be more loyal to you. I just feel that there is a big opportunity for individuals and organizations to embrace all of this growth that you started off talking about because that's the unlock. That's the unlock for firms. That's the unlock for people. And wider. You know, I mentioned before, and for me, family life has given me so much.

46:51Search with Candour hosts: It's the unlock for families. If you have younger members of your family, teach them how to do it. The number of times I've heard people say, oh, journaling and self-reflection, why don't we get taught that at school? But we don't. But we can teach ourselves. There's a part of the journaling I've been doing where I noticed there was a section,

47:15The SEO Mindset hosts: I kind of checked some templates and thought about this kind of thing. And one of them was like, what did you achieve today? And I was like, hmm, do I really want to be measuring how well my day went by what I did? And I had a few other ideas and a few other examples and looked at, I still have that what did you achieve today thing, but also what did you do that you enjoyed? which is not necessarily the same thing because I could achieve completing an audit or editing a podcast or whatever it is but I actually enjoyed recording the podcast instead or doing something else or setting this all up and doing this and being on stage and recording and all this kind of stuff they're not always the same thing and I think I often get into the mindset that they should be the same thing the thing you're doing has to be the thing you enjoy and if I'm doing it I have to enjoy it and you kind of force yourself to do it but understanding what you like and what you don't like, your strengths and weaknesses I try and do a lot of that kind of self analysis without being too critical I definitely do that there is that real kind of is what I enjoy actually what I'm good at and if I'm bad at something is it because I don't like it or just because it's not for me and they're not always necessarily the same thing

48:34Search with Candour hosts: and just to add on to that yes there's always going to be your sweet spot and this is the icky guy is it not thank you I know my stuff I can't remember what the icky guy is though you don't know your stuff I don't know my stuff

48:50The SEO Mindset hosts: I know my stuff but I don't know what I'm talking about is what you just said

48:53Search with Candour hosts: what's the three things now she decides to take a drink do you want some hold music no

49:02The SEO Mindset hosts: do do do do do do

49:04Search with Candour hosts: Hands up who's mapped out there, Ikigai. A handful of people. We can send a link on the mailing list, can't we? You got very excited. Yes, we can.

49:18The SEO Mindset hosts: We can do some marketing.

49:20Search with Candour hosts: It's so enjoyable to do. I'm sharing. It's a Venn diagram. So it's what are you good at? What are you good at? What does the world need? What could you get paid for? And what do you like doing? And the thing in the middle will be the thing that is your ikigai. It's your work that won't feel like working. Now, it doesn't strictly apply because I said in my example, I really love cleaning kitchens. I'm really good at cleaning kitchens. The world needs clean kitchens. And I'm sure somebody would pay me, but I'm not spending all day every day cleaning a kitchen. But it's a really great exercise to do.

50:07Search with Candour hosts: And you know when I said to give yourself some space, take a step back and understand yourself. It's a really good exercise to do that. Yeah, sorry. No, carry on. I was just going to say, so it's really important for the icky guy to note down what you enjoy and what you're good at. But also, it's okay to have a hobby that you're not good at. And for example, I've just taken up drumming. Thank you. Woo! Oh, I mean, Tash is my biggest cheerleader. Anything I do, she's like, you're banging, babes. I'm like, oh, thank you.

50:43The SEO Mindset hosts: Banging on the drum. Oh, yes, there you go.

50:46Search with Candour hosts: But I am very new to this, and I'm all right, but I'm not amazing, I'm not really great. But the thing, I really enjoy doing it. and we can, we learn a certain, I mean, I don't even know what the right terminology is. Paradiddle. Paradiddle? Is that the same as a para? I'm a bass player, not a drummer. I don't know. But anyway, so the thing is that you can have a hobby that you're not good at. You can enjoy doing stuff that you're not particularly good at. I enjoy playing darts. do I ever get on the board? Probably not so yes it's important to have your icky guy and figure out what you enjoy because then can you work your career into it and something that I do enjoy is talking to people so I get to do a podcast I really enjoy putting on a show so I was a performing arts kid but he shot Corra

51:50The SEO Mindset hosts: we can tell

51:53Search with Candour hosts: so there will be opportunities where the two collide, but also you don't always have to be good at something to do it as a hobby as well, just as a caveat.

52:04The SEO Mindset hosts: That's a really good point. Yeah, I think that's something I found, you know, I lost a lot of weight last year, had a charity MMA fight last year, and that all went really well. And I've continued doing a lot of training in some martial arts. I'm still kind of crap, and I'm still kind of out of shape, but I'm enjoying it. And I'm not expecting, I'm not suddenly going to be a black belt overnight. It's just something that I continue to do because it helps me feel a little bit better. But oftentimes, I will go an entire week, two training sessions, without winning any sparring matches at all. But I'm still enjoying it.

52:37The SEO Mindset hosts: I'm still going. I'm still doing it. Still trying to better myself and understand and things like that. And I think that's a key point and something I've tried to learn is that you don't have to be good at everything. As soon as I try a new hobby, it's like, right, if I'm not the best at it, sod it, I'm not doing it anymore. I'm just going to throw it away. It doesn't matter. Music being a perfect example of that. I've been playing bass on and off for 20-ish years now. I started learning as a teenager. You're not old enough for that, surely. Well and truly old enough for that, mate. We're the same age.

53:06The SEO Mindset hosts: You know we're the same age.

53:07Search with Candour hosts: I'm just buttering you up.

53:09The SEO Mindset hosts: Thanks, mate. But yeah, there's that element of like, I haven't played guitar in so long. And I picked up and started making music for the first time in years and years and years the other day. And I was like, oh, I'm enjoying this. It's probably never going to get released. It's never going to go anywhere, never going to do anything with it. But it was just something fun to enjoy. And it felt like a nice creative outlet that I haven't had in a long time. And maybe that helps my brain free up some space to do other stuff as well.

53:36Search with Candour hosts: And also, you can get better at doing stuff as well. So, for example, when I did my very first podcast, SEO, SES, because me and Hannah were the G.I. Janes of the SEO industry.

53:47The SEO Mindset hosts: Still got the tagline down all these years later.

53:49Search with Candour hosts: I've got the tattoo as well. I'm fully committed.

53:51The SEO Mindset hosts: Dedication.

53:52Search with Candour hosts: someone actually asked me about my helicopter tattoo at a pub and I forgot that I even had it because it's in a weird place that I can't see anyway so that sounded weird it's just on my arm and angle

54:06The SEO Mindset hosts: I saw a couple of people in the audience and pulled their face including me

54:10Search with Candour hosts: anyway if I go back to my very first podcast I am probably going to cringe because

54:18The SEO Mindset hosts: I've done that to myself before

54:20Search with Candour hosts: I thought you were going to say I have listened to your first podcast. I've listened to your first podcast, Sarah. It was terrible. But the point is, sometimes you've just got to start with stuff as well because you don't know where it's going to end. So when I started my very first podcast, I didn't think I'd be sat here right now because of that. I didn't think I'd have a studio in Worcester because of that. I didn't think I'd be a podcast producer as a freelancer because of that. I just had a go. I dabbled in student radio, local radio, really enjoyed that medium. Someone showed me podcasts.

54:54Search with Candour hosts: And, yeah, like, I wasn't good at first. I had to learn. I had to learn what a podcast is. Still don't really know what the definition is, if I'm honest.

55:03The SEO Mindset hosts: It's always fun explaining it to parents and stuff, isn't it? Just like, it's kind of like a radio show, but on the internet, but kind of not. Sometimes you do it in front of people. Or is it like comedy then? No, well, sometimes. Sometimes you make people laugh, but not always.

55:17Search with Candour hosts: It depends.

55:18The SEO Mindset hosts: It depends. There we go. There's the essay one. So thank you. Thank you.

55:21Search with Candour hosts: The first it depends answer. I think a book needs to go just for that.

55:25The SEO Mindset hosts: Exactly. Exactly. So we've got the last couple of minutes here. Let's wrap things up. Are there any sort of key takeaways that you think the lovely folks here at Comedia should be taking away with themselves after the live podcast? Tasman, I'll come over to you.

55:38Search with Candour hosts: I think for me what I'd encourage everyone to do is just reconnect with yourself and stop letting everyone else derail your life and put yourself firmly in the middle and look at your skills, look at what you enjoy look at what you want to create look at what brings you a life look at what strengthens your foundation because there are too many people who want too many things from you and if that's going to derail your life, it's not worth it. Have I got to follow that?

56:13The SEO Mindset hosts: You have. Sorry.

56:15Search with Candour hosts: I've got another smudgy card. I need another pen, don't I? So my main takeaway is listen to your body because there's always going to be times where you're going to have to work hard and put the graft in. if you've if you're aiming for career longevity and you've got a plan and you know where you want to aim and where you want to go there are going to be times where you have to hustle so for example this live podcast there's a lot of planning everything that goes into it but I know that I can hustle because it's part of the plan and I know that yeah that's going towards an end goal and I also know that after this and after Brighton SEO, I'll have time to reflect and rest.

57:06Search with Candour hosts: So my big thing is it's really unrealistic to think that we've just cured hustle culture, but if you aim towards career longevity and you have a plan, you'll know when the hustle is worth it, but listen to your body, and as soon as you know that your body is giving you signals, listen to it and go and take a break whether that is out in the air i can't even remember what i

57:35The SEO Mindset hosts: said earlier touch and sniff air or something like that sniff air i mean it's really gone weird

57:39Search with Candour hosts: sniff air could also sit in a sauna which tash likes to do with the red light therapy good to know um yeah so just listen to your body it's okay to hustle and don't cut yourself some slack as well it's okay but listen to your body and know when you need to take a break and it's okay to take a break because you need to because your body will just give up otherwise yeah i think

58:04The SEO Mindset hosts: taking a break is the biggest thing there's loads of studies that show that if you work through your lunch break you are doing not as good work as you would do if you actually took a break and went outside and went for a walk and actually got away from your desk you mentioned earlier Sarah, like working from home and how that kind of like lack of divide between work and home life kind of happened. And I felt that really, really strongly where you would, you know, look at one screen for eight hours a day, then turn your chair around and look at a different screen for a few hours. And it just felt like everything happens in one room and you barely move and all this kind of stuff.

58:41The SEO Mindset hosts: For me, it is creating that divide. It is creating that element of knowing when to stop work, when to cut things off, not to push yourself past that point. Go and take a break. Step away from your desk. Go for a walk. Was it touch grass, touch trees, smell air? All those things. Go and do something that isn't looking at the screen, isn't doing your work, and have a little break to reset your mind and reset your body. Because for me, that really helps me then to come at things from a different angle or reprocess things in a different way. and it makes such a big difference if I'm sat there just staring at something really really trying to force myself to get through this problem and I'm not getting anywhere and I come back to it half an hour or an hour later after doing something completely different and I'm like oh yeah of course I should have been doing that this whole time.

59:30The SEO Mindset hosts: You can come back with a completely different perspective and taking that break and kind of forcing yourself to create those divides really helped me kind of understand where I want to start and stop my work without forcing myself into that kind of constantly hustling kind of thing. And I think that pretty much wraps us up, folks. Yes. Where can people find the SEO Mindset, Sarah and Tasman?

59:52Search with Candour hosts: Everywhere.

59:53The SEO Mindset hosts: Whoa.

59:53Search with Candour hosts: We're everywhere. On the internet.

59:55The SEO Mindset hosts: On the interwebs. YouTube?

59:58Search with Candour hosts: We are on YouTube. Spotify? On Spotify.

1:00:01The SEO Mindset hosts: Apple Podcasts?

1:00:02Search with Candour hosts: Apple Podcasts.

1:00:02The SEO Mindset hosts: Other podcast platforms? Yeah. Whoa.

1:00:05Search with Candour hosts: We've got a website.

1:00:06The SEO Mindset hosts: Bloody hell.

1:00:07Search with Candour hosts: Yeah.

1:00:07The SEO Mindset hosts: What's the website?

1:00:09Search with Candour hosts: The SEO Mindset podcast, is it?

1:00:12The SEO Mindset hosts: Careful. It's the SEOmindset.co.uk, isn't it?

1:00:15Search with Candour hosts: I mean, yeah, who knows? Basically, if you Google the SEOmindset podcast, you'll find us somewhere.

1:00:23The SEO Mindset hosts: That's the SEO flex. Just Google us. Yeah,

1:00:27Search with Candour hosts: just Google us.

1:00:28The SEO Mindset hosts: Same with Search for Candor. If you want to go to withcandor.co.uk slash podcast or search for it, you can find me all across YouTube, Spotify, all that kind of stuff. Huge thank you once again to our gold sponsor, The Cystrix, another woo and a round of applause, please. We couldn't do these events without our wonderful sponsors. And, of course, Majestic as well. Final woo.

1:00:49Search with Candour hosts: We've also got data that we're going to send.

1:00:51The SEO Mindset hosts: We have. We're going to follow up. Thank you to Steve and the Cystrix team. We've got data about a bunch of related topics, the article Steve mentioned earlier as well, and lots of other keyword stuff around this kind of topic. So if you do want to learn a little bit more about the topic and do some reading and some homework as well, we'll be sending that on the mailing list afterwards as well. go and have a drink go and have a snack we're back in about half an hour and you guys can share your stories ask questions and all that kind of stuff

1:01:16Search with Candour hosts: books up for grabs as well

1:01:17The SEO Mindset hosts: come and get some books when you ask some questions later thank you everybody woo