Bananas, Banners and an Existential Crisis

0:22Musa Okwonga: Hello and welcome back to the Stadia podcast. I'm Musa Okwonga. I'm Ryan Hunn. Ryan, how are you doing? Doing all right, thanks man. Doing all right. How are you? as it should be good win at the weekend good win it was a good win against the very good lead side they looked superb actually

0:35Ryan Hunn: there was something quite funny about that game where you had that one as the early kickoff in the Premier League and I thought both teams were pretty good actually I know a lot of people that's a horrible fixture

0:44Musa Okwonga: to get straight after the break I think

0:46Ryan Hunn: very well organised leads very good on the I was really impressed with these actually but the Manchester United Spurs game felt very much like we'd been out all day and that was what was going on at that time of night by comparison El Cap for show Yeah, something like that. El Crisis O. Come on. That's a good one. It's generous. Anyway, how are you? I'm good. It was your birthday yesterday. Happy birthday.

1:08Musa Okwonga: Thank you. I'm 47 years old. It's been 47 years.

1:17Musa Okwonga: I tell you what, I tell you you can feel it. When you're running for the traffic lights. You know when the lights are changing.

1:22Ryan Hunn: And your Achilles starts to go. I can say this.

1:25Musa Okwonga: There's an eye on that halfway island. across there was a day when you would get straight over you'd like make it over the whole road but now you're just happy to get to the island halfway they need to start putting isotonic drinks and those refuel gels at the half at the i'm good i was in the lovely town of nirnberg for my birthday and i was doing a um i was chairing a human rights panel because it was like 80 years since the nirnberg trials and i was like this this is maybe quite on brand weekend um the people at the hotel they heard it's my birthday they overheard strategically it's my birthday brought some would you like a glass of sex with your breakfast I was like why not

2:05Ryan Hunn: yes yes so yeah it was very good nice was it the fact that you came walking in with like a hat that said birthday boy on it or something

2:12Musa Okwonga: I think it was probably the unicorn horn that gave it away yeah

2:17Ryan Hunn: and the balloons 47 and I

2:20Musa Okwonga: hey hey it's me I'm the main character

2:24Ryan Hunn: oh dear well we hope everyone else is staying safe and well wherever you are a quick bit of admin this week we're going to have i think we're going to have a like a bumper show on the patreon later in the week with a couple of guests hopefully so just got to wrap up that show so i'm not going to spoil who's who it's going to be but if you want to come and listen to that and every other show ad free in full go to patreon.com forward slash studio sign up as a podcast member to get all the podcast sign up as a social club member to get the podcast plus access to the stadio social club discord and loads of other perks we'd love to have you uh london listeners south bank live show is coming up in january tickets are in the description i think that's all the admin today we're going to split the show into kind of little sections we're going to do we're going to have to talk about the liverpool man city game but in terms of i don't think we're going to go through the game so much, maybe a little bit here and there, but I think in terms of I think just the vibe and the feeling that it's created because I think this is really weird now.

3:27Ryan Hunn: We're going into really weird territory. I can't remember actually stepping into territory like this before. We're going to talk a little bit about that and what it means, what it all means, etc. We might touch on a little bit of Real Madrid stuff just because the drama never stops. And we're also going to shout out maybe Freiburg just quickly absolutely great win for them talk about an antidote to the Premier League and we talked about this even with them getting to the Europa League final last year against Villa just if you went do you know they broke their transfer record this year Freiburg big spending Freiburg oh my goodness can you believe it look they bought Mio Backhaus from Werder Bremen for 12 million euros and they broke their transfer record

4:16Musa Okwonga: no way 12 million

4:18Ryan Hunn: 12 million euros so what's that in pounds that is 10.1 million pounds and they broke their transfer record this year unbelievable and they're top of the league anyway let's get into it but there is only one place to begin this week and there is only one place to begin South Melbourne became the first non-A league team to win the Australia Cup. They beat the powerhouse Melbourne victory on penalties 4-3 after a one-all draw after extra time. The club, which is famously nicknamed Hellas, the former home of Ange Postacoglu, the former home of Ferenc Pruskas, who are in the second tier. There's a really interesting narrative framed here where you have Melbourne victory, A-League, the kind of bit of a giant of the new football, and then Hellas who were kind of seen as the remnants of old Australian football titles in the in like a now defunct top flight league but yeah the first ever team outside the top flight to win the Australia Cup

5:30Musa Okwonga: basically the return of the Jedi is what you're saying

5:32Ryan Hunn: it was unbelievable man it was like I would recommend anyone going and checking out the highlights and reading some stuff about it if you can because just a really really really good footballing story

5:41Musa Okwonga: no I'm glad man I'm glad you went for that actually that's lovely there's a few actually there were a few great results this weekend that showed us I think what football could be at its best we'll get to maybe an adverse example at the moment but yeah I'm glad you started with that you mentioned Freiburg but also just like Betis Osasuna like just a game of football that's just amazing and like Isco just topping and tailing the game starting it finishing it and we were talking before about this like Isco being still only 34 and brilliant and you look at Spain's depth he actually did get back into the Nations League squad at one point so De La Fuente gave him a chance but Isco would be Isco would be in the international squad for almost any other nation like if Isco was from Argentina I think Isco makes the squad in some capacity like that's can't get a game for Spain but yeah Betis Ossesuna was an absolute banger Real Sociedad Deportivo wasn't far behind either so yeah some really good games in La Liga and also over in in Italy Kevin De Boona doing bits yeah Como Roma giving us chaos.

6:45Musa Okwonga: No goals, but lots of chaos. So yeah, some great football around the leagues, which I think was a welcome distraction given what was happening at the top in England.

6:56Ryan Hunn: All right, let's do it then. Let's do it. So probably the most hotly anticipated Premier League game of the season so far after the three-week men's international break following the guilty verdict for Manchester City's case from the Premier League on 114 and 115 charges. You all know the score by now. They went to Anfield. I think the atmosphere, I think as soon as the team sheets came out, I was speaking to a mate of mine who's a Liverpool fan earlier on in the day and he was just like not expecting anything from the game at all because of the amount of absentees Liverpool have. That creates a bit, or it takes a bit of the edge off, I think, an atmosphere.

7:37Ryan Hunn: So I saw a lot of people talking about why the atmosphere wasn't really all that. And I was like, yeah, but if you think about it, there is an air of acceptance almost when you see the team sheet that you have.

7:47Musa Okwonga: Also, Liverpool have been living this for years.

7:50Ryan Hunn: Yeah, but I mean, you know, if they had had a fully fit squad and they would have had a fully fit starting XI, everyone available, then I think it probably would have been even more hype.

8:00Musa Okwonga: Or if a lot of the protagonists of the era when the charges were amassed.

8:04Ryan Hunn: Yeah, or if it was still Klopp and Pep. and all of that kind of stuff. And Mo Salah and like Bernardo Silva.

8:09Musa Okwonga: Then it's different because those trophies are yours but the people that have won those trophies for the most part are in other countries or they're not even in work at the moment. So this is like basically inherited beef.

8:21Ryan Hunn: Yeah, that was an interesting angle on it as well because you have two managers in their first seasons at those clubs as well.

8:26Musa Okwonga: Yeah. So the energy in it is weird. So then there's also this other element of like I think people were and this is the thing I think this results as much as you know Man City won 3-0 the biggest losers are the Premier League in this. I think they were hoping for a spectacle. The dream Premier League result, this is just me like spitballing here, would have been an engaging encounter, a Liverpool victory, which I think quiets some of the noise. But the fact that like, this was the worst possible outcome for the Premier League. This is a disaster for them. It's a horrible, horrible outcome for them because it makes everyone focus back on the charges.

9:07Musa Okwonga: Wasn't helped by the combative manner in which City players and supporters navigated this game, which you'd ultimately expect because football is fundamentally a tribal sport and people will go with whatever. No one's going to turn up and be like penitent. I was not expecting the players in particular to be penitent. I wasn't, maybe not expecting some of the kind of badge kissing, fist pumping. I wasn't expecting some of that. But then again, Enzo Maresca, like his comments have been bullish throughout with all of this. There's a reason why he was hired. They hired someone to do comms on and off the field, to be bullish, to be aggressive.

9:40Musa Okwonga: That's what he's been hired for. Not just for the coaching, but for the front. For the vibe. For the vibe. That's exactly what this is about. Everything that they've produced is totally how I expect it to be. And this is just going to carry on every single week until something changes, until something else is done.

9:57Ryan Hunn: There's that edge to him that I think really benefits Manchester City, especially in the era that they're going through at the moment, which is... to kind of like dig in and create the siege mentality because yeah it's very I think he's the kind of perfect manager available for them. Perfect hire. Perfect hire for them. A couple of things from the fan point of view I think leaning into the nostalgia element bringing the bananas back a lot of retro kits I could I think that was actually quite a pointed and quite actually a good thing because it does, for them, that's like, look, we are, we've been a club before, we'll be a club again.

10:39Ryan Hunn: It doesn't really matter. I thought that element of it was quite fun. I am surprised in one sense that quite the level of support shown and lack of criticism directed at ownership. And that, I think, was probably the most disappointing aspect of it for me was just that I would have really liked to have seen a fan base and I'm not a Manchester City fan so I'm not policing fans of other clubs or whatever and I know it might be a little idealistic to expect that but I would have really loved to have seen more pushback on the ownership who have gotten them into this position as opposed to embracing the cheating label which I actually have to admit I find quite weird I'm not as surprised that there wasn't huge criticism or anything criticising the owners I am quite surprised I'm very surprised actually how much it was embraced on the opposite side

11:27Musa Okwonga: Have you seen that movie Wall Street? have you seen it yeah with that yeah so you got like a the dad right and you got like you know um the dad and the son and the son goes and makes all the money in the city and the dad is like working class right and they have this conversation about how the soul is lost and it's interesting because he's like i'm a working class guy because you can look at this like early man city like the original fandom and what it is from the city and all the rest of it and then you've got this like this new money that comes and the dad and the son are so different in many ways like gordon gecko and he's like talking to his son and he's like, like the soul is lost, like not immediately.

12:00Musa Okwonga: It's lost bit by bit overnight. And I think, I feel that way about the City fans. You saw the two faces of City or the two generations represented in that fandom where you had the bananas, right? And the nostalgic throwback. We've been here before. We'll be here again. We'll survive. And then you have the kind of the new money. And the thing I, the point I suppose I'm making is it's really, really amazing how quickly the money changes the mentality and to go from being the underdog, okay, this is the eternal underdog, we're never going to be at the top table. And actually how sweet that can be and how seductive it is to be the all conquering, all dominating.

12:36Musa Okwonga: People have been laughing a while, typical city and all of a sudden you're on top. And that feeling, right, of being at the top table, however you got there, it's very, very hard to shake that. Like it's very hard to shake being the top dog and actually you lean into it and you know it's kind of not right. You know it's wrong. You know it's not well come by. And there's all this talk about, well, there were clubs at the big table and the cartels, but fundamentally, if you stop and look in the mirror, it's like you saw in that fan base, you saw literally the other day, just how seductive it is.

13:06Ryan Hunn: I think we had it when Abramovich was sanctioned after Russia invaded Ukraine, quite a lot of emails from Chelsea fans kind of saying the, look, you know, along the lines of, look, I kind of knew, but we never really questioned it because the good times were so good. And look, I understand that. I just think there was an element to it on the weekend where I saw some guy like kind of waving money around you know we we were talking a little bit before we came on air about how there's a cultural element to English in particular but I think maybe British fandom as a whole that and I don't want to kind of galaxy brain this because you know because sometimes it's just not that deep go for it no it's a podcast this where else where else where else do we do over the last however long we've seen the power that fans have uh specifically with regards to their football clubs in the premier league let's say we've seen that eroded to the point where a lot of it seems futile and that's why we constantly reference the super league protest but i think that was quite a unique thing where the actual the entirety of the footballing ecosystem was kind of pushing back against that and so that was quite a unique thing but everyone pulled together and I think we've seen fan protests against clubs and specifically ownership but when things aren't going well we've seen it in numerous times or if specific things happen on a negative sense I'm not sure that there's a culture there if you compare it to Germany a prime example even when things are really going well you will often see fans protesting against the club or protesting against something else on behalf of other fans there's a lot more of a culture of collective protest even when it's something that is isn't specifically related to your club there's a lot more solidarity there in in a culture and i wonder if that comes from the ownership the sense of ownership that the 50 plus one rule gives fans there we're not really used to that and this was something where I was thinking this weekend of maybe we're wishing for something that is just not really a cultural thing which is to protest against your club even in a time of success you know but Bayern for example if you use Bayern as an example they've protested against specific sponsorships of the club even when they were winning a load of titles I would love to see that in the Premier League.

15:36Ryan Hunn: I would love to see fans protesting against the club ownership, even if you are successful. I would love it to not have to be something really, really grim in terms of ownership, you know, like dragging clubs down or whatever. Although you could argue that that is potentially what this ownership is doing. But you know what I mean? And I feel maybe like Sunday was a really good opportunity for something like that. But then having said that, is it something that it's not really something that is part of the English football culture, which made the Super League thing so unique?

16:13Musa Okwonga: I think the UK is a very interesting country. Now, I see your point. I think the interesting is a very interesting country because the UK has always worried me as a culture, or England specifically, because people think that just because nothing's happening for a long time, visibly nothing's happening but actually the silent resentment is there and it builds and explodes so if you compare for example someone wrote an article about why have there been riots in france by the school students and not in england right and someone was like the culture protest so and so and all that you know but the way that resentment builds and when it explodes and it finally comes out it explodes in all these weird directions and i think that's why you get what you've got the weekend and actually what saddens me about city and i say this united fan if they built something organically which they could have done right we're taking a bit longer but they could have built something really organic and sustainable and they would have been like like a permanent rival and some will say you'll just say that but actually one of the reasons i haven't spoken more about this in the last few years is because so much of what i say would be dismissed because i'm a united fan right same but as somebody who frankly look i'm a busy person i love football but worse comes to worse i could do without it actually like really if united were

17:24Ryan Hunn: owned like i was never i could look genuinely genuinely i could take the premier league away and actually i think my life would have it would be a net positive there was a good slice of my

17:34Musa Okwonga: life when actually i was writing about football and i was engaging with it vigorously for half the week but the other half the week i would switch off and there were people in my life that didn't even know i liked football this was a thing i literally had a double life the other day i was at this event actually and someone was like oh my god you're a football person like what the hell because i literally divide the two things right but yeah i just think look your point about the lack of culture protest absolutely right uh it can change and i think we would have liked it to have changed sooner than it did but unfortunately i think they're gonna have to do it the hard way i think that i think i think that city as an institution including supporters are going to have to learn the hard way because the problem with all of this right a few more weeks like this the erosion of goodwill will be almost total and the one thing that city supporters do not want to be is on an island when that judgment drops because i'm already seeing i'm seeing the discourse The discourse is shifting so much.

18:26Musa Okwonga: I'm seeing people going, oh, expulsion from the league and whatever this and that needs to happen. Look, if the sanctions are applied and they don't result in an expulsion from the league, the problem is that the discourse has shifted so far that everything they do will be clouded. And football fans can say all they like, oh, we like being hated, we don't care. Yeah, okay, here's the thing. People that say that care more than anybody. I can say this for a fact, fan bases that go, oh, no one likes us. They are the fan bases that care the absolute most. We've never been here in football before. And I think that until or unless like a significant number of like City fans start pointing their ownership and going, hang on a minute, they're distinct from us.

19:11Musa Okwonga: There'll be this overall sense of like, okay, I don't care about any of you. You're all damned.

19:15Ryan Hunn: Yeah, because there will be a time when, whether it's soon or whether it's down the line, that different people are in the football club. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's kind of what happens then. I'd be really interested to talk to more City fans about it because a few of the City fans that I know have always kind of been a bit like… The ones we know have all been great, actually. They've all been great. This is amazing. And I've never thought I would see this for Manchester City before. it's also a bit like, eh, you know, and it's almost like VAR. It's how much could you really truly celebrate anything organically anymore because you're wondering whether it's just going to get undone down the line.

20:01Ryan Hunn: And that must be such a weird thing. Anyway. All of this to say,

20:05Musa Okwonga: yeah. And the reason we cover the city game in this way is because I feel. Well,

20:12Ryan Hunn: that's our podcast.

20:13Musa Okwonga: Yeah. Yeah, but also I think we have to do justice to what this actually was, which is, okay, it's a group of highly motivated athletes. I don't expect them, if they score bangers, to go away and be like, muted celebration. I don't expect that. And the Ray and, you know, Cherky doing the badge kissing and Doku like going like, you know, kind of almost like silencing. I mean, yeah, I get it. It's like heel behavior. And even a lot of the Wayfan stuff of leaning into it, right? because fundamentally like fan is you know we know what fan is short for and you are basically you're ultra isn't that mentality you're going there into the lines then and you're going to use anything

20:48Ryan Hunn: I get I get it I'm saying I get it and that's just I want to put it on record that saying I get it I just would have I think it would have been really cool actually to see a big pushback from the fans in this in this game I think that would have been really cool and I would have been like wow that's really really good for Man City fans because they know the severity of this. I'd be really interested to see what the reaction is like if the sanctions are really severe. But also, I think what it threw up, because of the way the game played out, and I actually think Liverpool, considering the absentees, I thought were quite good.

21:23Ryan Hunn: I thought quite good, especially after half-time. I thought they did pretty well until the red card, and I think the red card was super soft. I kind of get the second yellow. I think the first one is an absolute nightmare of a yellow. And it changed the game afterwards. right it completely changed i think 11 of city's 15 shots came after the red card and city just looked that that was city just looked unbelievable after that of course they get look at who they've got on the pitch and a player advantage right but i think that that the way that the game played out combined with i think maybe this antagonistic nature that happened before nightmare it just threw up this horrible horrible thing where like what were you watching what was this right what does this even mean like what is this competition now you have this real people are pundits and everyone are doing this really weird little dance

22:14Musa Okwonga: and it's it's a problem i want to say something else as well okay the thing about support for institutions or you know or established figures or whatever it can fall off a cliff it can fall off a cliff resentment can build quietly and then all of a sudden viewing figures just disappear because well disappear or dissipate because people just go and do something else and the thing is when resentment when resentment sets in to the point where people are just going and doing something else just checking out there's a there's a ton of other sports that could be watching people are into a lot of things people are not just into football they're into formula one they're into like tennis they're into whatever golf people find something else like there are ultimately the Premier League understand that the reason they've been so compelling for so long is because they had Klopp and they had Pep and they had narratives.

23:03Musa Okwonga: If those narratives are seen as useless, then you're looking at a situation where people go, I'll watch the Premier League because the clubs further down the table are worth watching. But those aren't the ones that bring in the big numbers and people crunching the numbers of the Premier League will have to understand that, that everybody ultimately relies on a title race or the appearance of something doesn't feel like it's rigged. If people feel it's rigged, they're just going to float away. and I've got to say this I'm pretty shocked I didn't think I would be a moderate in this conversation but hearing how people have been talking about this game I'm like wow I've never seen

23:36Ryan Hunn: reaction to that

23:36Musa Okwonga: I am nowhere close you know I sent you a text

23:39Ryan Hunn: who knew Musogwanga centrist I'm a centrist in this conversation I'm like okay well

23:44Musa Okwonga: I don't think this is blowing over I don't think I realised how big this was don't get me wrong I felt look I know it's big I know it's this this that but the way that someone like Pablo Torre is talking about being the biggest scandal in sporting history. I thought people would hold back, actually. I thought people would be like, okay, well, it is what it is, corruption. I thought people would accept it the same way people accept exorbitant rents in the middle of London. That's just the way it is. You get a bit screwed over. There's a ton of empty mansions. I just thought, but there's something about it where it's like, yeah, that's different because we don't, That's not our place of escapism.

24:27Musa Okwonga: That's not our sacred place. And what they've done, the Premier League have done this and they've created it, the situation. They have absolutely sabotaged. They've desecrated people's temple. They've desecrated it. And I don't know, unless they act quickly, really, really quickly. And I don't know what Premier, I don't know. I don't know what podcast they listen to, Premier League executives. I don't know what articles they're affecting. I don't know what affects them, right? I don't know what shifts the needle. if the sanctions drop and they are regarded as not being severe enough they're going to kiss goodbye to viewers and interest and engagement in ways they could not possibly anticipated and I'd be very very very afraid if I were them because it's out of their hands now

25:14Ryan Hunn: I think it's really bad far worse than me because I've seen quite a lot of I've seen a lot of people saying hey do you know what fair play to the Premier League and it's good for the Premier League that they've managed to, they've been so hard and they've done this and, you know, they've actually investigated and taken a stance. I'm like, hang on a minute, step back a bit. They've had to hand out medals to someone who they found guilty of 114 and 115 charges, right? And also, in the era that we're now in, when all of that kind of fake news, everything's illegitimate, everything's this, everything's that, and there is no set of truths, like widely accepted truths anymore, you know?

25:54Ryan Hunn: facts don't really exist. And it's very difficult for them to get a consensus and stuff like that, which is why it's interesting that this weekend had that game as the final game of the Premier League calendar because I think it could have really, ideally for them, they would have got this out of the way at 12.30 on Saturday because it would have let everything else take the focus from the weekend. And there was some great football in the Premier League this weekend. There were some really good games, there were some great goals, great performances. and I think it would have it would have died off a little bit before everyone started doing the pods on the Monday and the Monday news cycle what's happened is this got less to sit and fester and everyone was just like people that I've never really seen that critical of the Premier League as a product I was shocked who genuinely believe it is the best league in the world and you know I don't think there's any doubt in saying the Premier League is the best league in the world consistently maybe from a standard point of view, top to bottom.

26:57Ryan Hunn: But in terms of what the best is, we've said this before, I don't think it is the best league in the world. That's a subjective thing, right? And this is a reason for that. Because so much of it has felt like a bit of a farce. And they are now having to deal with that to the point where you have a team who, the only team in the league who's got a maximum record has been found guilty of 114 and 115 charges. are waiting for sanctions are repealing it and every single game that they play every single goal that they score every single point that they take that's going to mount up and the fact that they've got off to such a start with everyone just being like why are we here?

27:37Ryan Hunn: It's really weird and it's really bad for the Premier League and yeah I just found myself being like actually what am I doing here? Like why am I watching like genuinely why am I watching I know this is our job right but I could just I could watch the highlights of this game actually and just not really bother because it doesn't actually mean anything.

27:58Musa Okwonga: It's really like, it's kind of fucking weird. So it resembles real life in the sense it's like a politician getting caught for like having their hand in the till and then getting reelected in a landslide. It's really that. It's how it feels and you're like, what is the point? What's the point? Why did I bother exposing it? Because I exposed it and I made people even like it and almost what it does is is this sort of, this era of if you've got the guts to take it, then it's, it's your right to have it all. And actually there's a, there's a, there's a perspective from which there was a talk about how city understood that these, this judgment would not go in their favor.

28:32Musa Okwonga: And they went out and they bought a ton of players. The way that they have navigated this, right. And it may go bad for them, but they've navigated this so far as well as they possibly could. They have brilliant players. They've rejuvenated the squad. those footballers look perfectly suited to the current era they've got Enzo Fernandes there whose ego is bulletproof in these situations Buade fantastic footballer Anderson who is just wonderful and has looked the part since he first kicked a ball for City they've just got an ecosystem they can seal off someone said to me like how would they respond to the pressure it's like they're gonna love it like there are there are City players in that camp who will come out of that and be like this was the best season of my career the building essentially the equivalent

29:17Ryan Hunn: of what really, really, really rich people, they are building like an apocalypse-proof panic bunker. This is the bunker, exactly. The city have built a bunker of sea. They've got, you know, like in those movies and stuff when you see it and they go underground, it's like, oh, I've got everything here. I've got like TV, enough supplies for years, gym, a room that can kind of, is like 360, can transform into this, like I can turn it into a forest. blah blah blah I've got all these herbs and stuff growing it's just that is what they are they are building the football equivalent of this that's what's going on

29:53Musa Okwonga: totally you've put it perfectly you know I think as well even down to like seeing the way that the AOA supports absolutely had their backs 100 % in that hostile environment does it it will not and it should not get more hostile than that right because Liverpool should be the most aggrieved really because they were up the nose against the glass for all that time

30:11Ryan Hunn: I think the only other one would if the Manchester derby at Old Trafford had been this weekend and I think that would have been the other one that would have been.

30:17Musa Okwonga: Possibly, possibly. Although we were declining by the time they were ascending, right? I would say this as well with City. The ownership now looking at that going, okay, they've got our back. Let's double down. Let's triple down. Let's subsidise as much away support as we can overseas and let's roll out the blue carpet for everybody that has our back and let's just go and win the whole thing. Let's go and win everything we can. Like, because this is, was it carte blanche, carte bleu, they've given them. And that's it. And why, and why wouldn't they, why wouldn't they like?

30:49Ryan Hunn: Lemmy's law, man. Don't back down, double down.

30:52Musa Okwonga: Or they've quadrupled down. Like, and so this is just where we, this is where we is. This is where we is. It's where we is. It's where we is. And I think also as well, the reason I'm not talking that much about other Premier League action this week, because I don't want the Premier League to get away with this. Like this is their bed. They have to lie in it. So all the great stories, like what Hull are doing this year, the unexpected resilience of Ipswich, the brilliance of Brighton, who are not just hanging in there, but absolutely strolling, looking superb. All of those great stories the Premier League wants us to feed off, they're ruining it.

31:28Musa Okwonga: And that has to be said. And I'm saying this because I hope that somewhere in the millions of words that will be spoken and written about this, somebody somewhere will say the sentences that will cut through and make the Premier League realise we need a rule change. This doesn't happen again. and somebody somewhere will be like, actually, we've got to make a difference. And I don't know who's going to say the sentences that make the difference or write them, but I just hope we're part of a collective solution.

31:53Ryan Hunn: Yeah, man. Do you know what I would have been really interested in actually speaking to any City fans who were in the away support who weren't supportive of the owners? Because I wonder what it would have been like being around that as well. Or even being surprised

32:06Musa Okwonga: or going to support your club but then like being surprised and being like, hang on a minute, I thought we were. Yeah. there's but there's there's been a few city fans who were like that there's a guy the guy on blue sky um shout out to barry no vibes who was just like i i was expecting i'm gutted by this i was

32:23Ryan Hunn: expecting more like pushback yeah no it is it's interesting right because look at the end of the day who are we to say tell fans what to do essentially because it's not our club it's but i was just i was thinking like if this yeah what would have been really cool from uh because look Manchester City we've talked about this before right like it's an institution that has been around for over 100 years you know as long as football survives I imagine it will be an institution that will be around for much longer after this level of ownership and you can't undo the impact that that has had but what you can do is change the future yeah yeah and I'm just really interesting if i i think my where i landed on it was a bit like i didn't quite expect it to be like that it was like seeing you know it was like waking up after on a on a certain election being like oh and it was going to be i expected it to be a little bit like that i didn't expect

33:20Musa Okwonga: it to be quite yeah yeah look at the brazilian elections like look at anything like you or look at brexit or any of these things where you go to bed like okay like you'll wake up in the polls were certainly like oh it's really swung oh okay okay yeah but then i do wonder also i think how

33:35Ryan Hunn: i'm interested to see how that tone shifts through the season how sustainable is it yeah it's just i mean it's a small sample size but this was a big opportunity it felt like if you're going to display a message it was going to it was going to be this game and i was just i was

33:49Musa Okwonga: a little bit surprised at the message yeah yeah yeah i see that anything else on on this because

33:56Ryan Hunn: I think we could talk for hours on this.

33:58Musa Okwonga: No, totally. Also, the reason why I have nothing else on it. Do you know why? Because it's only the beginning of this conversation. This is just... This hasn't... To be honest, it probably hasn't hit the bottom. It hasn't hit the bottom, actually.

34:11Ryan Hunn: Yeah, only the beginning. Who really got away with it, though, this weekend? Because we've gone so long on that. Manchester United and Spurs fans. Crickets. Got away with it. Crickets, crickets, crickets.

34:27Musa Okwonga: It worked. We got them. Who's wearing the crisis crown this week?

34:34Ryan Hunn: On his even.

34:36Musa Okwonga: Still deserving. Still deserving, isn't it? Carrick has a claim to it, but I think it is still deserving.

34:44Ryan Hunn: All right. I reckon that'll do us for the Premier League. All right, man. Can we turn to something a bit more wholesome?

34:50Musa Okwonga: Yes, we can. Freiburg are top of the Bundesliga. With a great win against Schalke, considering like having a red card too. So impressive. So impressive.

35:00Ryan Hunn: Dortmund dropped points on Friday night against Werder Bremen at home. Who came up with the 92nd minute equaliser. St. Nicholas. St. Nick. Dortmund got full-krooked. They did. They did. They absolutely did. 2-0 up. Back at Werder Bremen. Did it slip. Equalising. 2-0. Right. Four goals in the final 12 minutes. Well, in 12 minutes at the end of this game. And then Bayern couldn't capitalise on Saturday. they drew in the derby away at Augsburg. Augsburg have been brilliant this year. We had the fastest ever Bundesliga goal. Five seconds. It was, I think it was technically, was it?

35:36Musa Okwonga: I saw the clock at five. I saw it at five. I was watching the clock at five. Six seconds it's gone down, officially. So maybe it's five points something. So what happens is Neuer basically gets the ball and very heavy first touch. And then tries to flop it over. Compounds it by trying to chip. And I just, Kimmich was great afterwards. He was like, hey, obviously wasn't the greatest start to the game. And we came back and did it. And I think, look, Bayern, to their credit, responded superbly. And they had like three upside goals. And it was a great point for Augsburg only because in the very last seconds, I think Bayern had like a hit the woodwork maybe twice.

36:13Musa Okwonga: Harry Kane was spectacular. Two brilliant assists. Bayern had 30 shots. They absolutely peppered them. Augsburg just getting out of jail with a superb start to the season.

36:24Ryan Hunn: The XG of this game was 2.37 for Augsburg to 4.96 for Bayern.

36:29Musa Okwonga: I mean, this was real. Bayern had the whites of their eyes on the keeper. This was... It's such a good point for Augsburg. It's such a good point. Shout out to a friend of mine, Michael, huge Augsburg fan. And the last time I saw him, I saw him at a music event in Hamburg and he was just like, you see how well we're doing? You see this? He's like... it's the happiest Bavarian I've seen in a very long time but I was going to start the season and I should drop my line after this actually but yeah so so so good and the Bundesliga are shaping up well as a contest again Bayern were so good they were so good they were they had three very marginal offsides on a different day they were on way with that so the way they attacked in this game despite getting the draw I expect them to go on a rampage at some point this season and I think it's going to be super super tough for Freiburg and Dortmund to hold them off.

37:19Musa Okwonga: Oh yeah. All the more reason to enjoy them now.

37:22Ryan Hunn: Like... This is it.

37:23Musa Okwonga: And I think... All the more reason, isn't it? Yeah.

37:25Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I just think that the thing about this as well from a Freiburg point of view is that this is just another... It's another... It's further continuation of Julian Schuster's... Like where he's taken his team. Spectacular follow-up, isn't it? To come... This might be... We might be in for one of the rare occasions of when the guy following the guy is the guy.

37:52Musa Okwonga: Which is ridiculous considering who he's following. It's ridiculous to follow Streich.

37:57Ryan Hunn: Christian Streich, who propelled that club into where they were in the Bundesliga, took them to their new home in the new stadium, took them into Europe multiple times, was at the club forever. And the thing is, what they've done is that he's his own person, he's his own manager, and he's got his own playing style, Julian Schuster.

38:16Musa Okwonga: Christian Stryker must be so proud. He must be because he also played under it. Schuster plays under Stryker. It's an incredible succession.

38:23Ryan Hunn: And the thing is, I think this just goes to show the culture within the football club. We talk about those places that if you're happy, why leave? And Freiburg is one of the ultimate, if you're happy, why leave places? And you've got this football team there who is so integral to the community, is so integral to day-to-day life there, and who have delivered moments over the past however long that they just don't have a club this size shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, totally. I mean, we talked about them going to the Europa League final last year and it's really interesting. There's two cases of stuff this weekend.

38:59Ryan Hunn: Two big stories of the weekend, I think, personally around Europe. Freiburg going back top, but also the Rio Athletic Club game being called off. Two clubs who were in the two European finals this past year who kind of have no right to be there. If you look at the sides that they both played against, both played against Premier League sides whose budgets are, like even Palace, but this is where you have a really weird thing with Premier League where you have Palace who have like, can't believe that they're in a European final who are huge Goliaths compared to Rio and Fribo in Villa's case. Just amazing, man.

39:38Ryan Hunn: Like amazing.

39:39Musa Okwonga: They both began those finals. It was so strange. those Conference League and Europa League finals, they began the games and they were like, they felt like prohibitive favourites. Yeah, yeah. Given the resources they had available and what the fan bases have been able to live and enjoy, Rio and Freiburg, regardless of the defeats in those finals, it's things of which most of the clubs would be envious because it's the way, and it's no coincidence that these clubs stand for so much more than what they do on the pitch. The values of Rio and Freiburg are values that people look at and go, actually you're kind of on the right side of history here you kind of you just value the collective you value the things that we love not saying that palace and villa don't have that as well i'm not saying that i'm saying that like the specific journeys of freiburg and rio vaticano their fan bases that other fan bases love they will say this on the way to the final my friend was saying that he went to some of the games he was like the amount of love we get from other fans there are clubs that just look there are a lot of people that just watch their own clubs and watch football teams and that's fine.

40:41Musa Okwonga: I'm not saying they shouldn't. But there are fan bases that have a love that extends far beyond their own borders. And I think that's what both these clubs stand for. And to have them at the top of the league, stop the count. Stop the count.

40:55Ryan Hunn: It would be incredible. I mean, it would be, honestly, it would be one of the most incredible football things ever.

41:03Musa Okwonga: But yeah, man, props to Julian Schuster. They should do like a true, a true like Bundesliga where based on resources like per point and everything like what's the true league and like who actually is the champion and then also factoring like off the field stuff social programs i'd be fascinated to see who actually won the league each year um well let's have a quick shout out union got their first

41:25Ryan Hunn: win of the season beat elvisburg at home 1-0 on the weekend and they have finally got some points well they had a point on the board but they finally got more than one point on the board but yes let's go to La Liga quickly so a couple of things Anthony Gordon got his first Barcelona goal got a quick two and Barcelona again winning against Cotafe Atleti with Christian Romero late winner for Atleti against Alaves who were down to 10 for the last half hour yeah we mentioned Rio the Rio Athletic Club game was abandoned because fans were throwing paper planes and rubber balls onto the pitch as a protest against the club's president.

42:09Ryan Hunn: If you're not aware of the situation at Rio, it makes it even more of a miracle that they got to the conference league final last season. Training ground closed due to mould. Players talking about how dangerous the pitch was. The stadium got closed recently. They were actually back at the stadium because of health and safety. I think it was like a health and safety inspection deemed it just basically unsafe. even to the point where players have complained about the lack of hot water there was a risk of Legionnaires disease coming from the state like it's now that is a club where there is a division between the fan base

42:41Musa Okwonga: and the ownership despite success yeah

42:44Ryan Hunn: and that fan base has been going after the president for ages they have a protest I think in like the 13th minute of every game yeah this time round they kind of sustained it and the and the ref called time on the game it was 0-0 at the time Rio is a club who yeah that club with a little bit of you know a metaphorical lick of pain because the thing the reason that the fans protest so much is they want to modernise the club they like they like the kind of cult aspect of it you know I think like paper tickets still but they want to modernise in ways that can let them compete a bit because you look at the coaches that have come through there and the way that they've played football and the kind of the cult nature of that club they're ready to be dream club to own dream club yeah absolutely yeah yeah should we talk about Real Madrid quickly yes because they beat Villarreal on the weekend 1-0 they thought they'd had a second so strange Vinicius Junior who had started on the bench came on for Trent scored in the 70th minute and Jose Mourinho ran down the touchline and celebrated with everyone in the corner

43:52Musa Okwonga: so strange all of this is so strange

43:54Ryan Hunn: because there's been a lot of talk about Vinicius and Vinicius' his form this season he's only scored one goal for Real Madrid I think since coming back obviously there was a big transfer saga in the summer with his rumoured move to Arsenal and then it ended up with him signing a new Real Madrid contract the goal then got ruled out because Vinicius pulled Saliba's hair Saliba ran across him and he pulled his hair the goal then gets disallowed Vinicius gets sent off and it's all it's a shame because Jude Bellingwood

44:21Musa Okwonga: had a superb assist for it like did all the work and all Vinicius had to do was tap it in but his movement was great Like, what I think was strange, what stuck with me was how out of control Vinicius seemed. Wound up. I don't know if it's like to make an impression when you come on as a sub, but he didn't need to foul him like he did. He didn't need to pull his hair. He didn't need to be that.

44:40Ryan Hunn: He's quick enough to go around him.

44:41Musa Okwonga: Yeah, he had the jump on him. Like, so he was like rattled already to do that, to like extend his hands and do that. And of course, like being called back. Like in a moment of euphoria, you've scored a goal. You're trying to make an impression, all the rest of it. but I saw this and thought I can't help but go back to that Ballon d 'Or campaign and think this is where it all started I know we keep talking about it but I think you can't it was the original sin Real Madrid were absolutely coasting they were beloved he'd scored the second goal in a Champions League final victory they were top of the world they didn't need to go where they went and they did it they absolutely self-destructed Real Madrid it was the beginning how do you self-destruct from a winning position like they did and this is the fallout we were talking before about like whether they're too noisy over there at Real and they absolutely are it's a mess it's a mess and the Barcelona steamroller right is so extensive that even if Real Madrid get a face-saving victory in the Clasico who else is going to stop this Barcelona like the problem is not the bottom and this is the thing the problem is not Barcelona right being six points ahead at this stage of the season it's where else are they going to pick up the points actually and are they going to finish second okay they could but the fact we've been having this discussion so well the fact they're in so much disarray and the Mourinho celebration it looked so forced like it's the second goal against no sounds harsh it's the second goal against Villarreal and you're acting like it's a Champions League quarterfinal it's too much

46:19Ryan Hunn: felt a bit early to go to do that

46:22Musa Okwonga: It feels like they're speed running something and it's not good. That midfield, I mean, let's just look at the actual football. I mean, Valverde, Chiromene is, it's not the midfield that, it's not the one. There's just so many ill-fitting parts in that team. There was talk, Managing Madrid, Kian was talking about having Valverde as up on the right. I think he's a great right wing. I think he gives great dynamism. The problem is that then Arda Goulet and Bellingham are competing for the 10 spot. and as brilliant as Ardegoula is, he's not a 10 over Bellingham. Diomande is there on the left flank who is looking like a really good option.

46:57Musa Okwonga: So he got his first goal.

46:59Ryan Hunn: Yeah, it was a great goal as well.

47:00Musa Okwonga: Dedicated to his sister, which is lovely. I know. He was like, sis, this is for you. And he's only 19 and carrying that burden. Big. And also I think

47:08Ryan Hunn: from Vinicius' point of view as well, seeing him come in and do that. He's been pretty good when he's played. He has.

47:13Musa Okwonga: He's been, he's been, this is, and this again, this is the problem like.

47:16Ryan Hunn: Do you think Vinicius is looking at him being like, oh that was me seven years ago well there's talk about

47:22Musa Okwonga: like you know Vinicius and the physical decline and all the rest of it and like even but even Vinicius and I always felt this too much was put on him too much has been put on Vinicius at the international level for Brazil and at the the club level there was so much talk of being a successor to Neymar but Neymar was many Neymar was three players in one Neymar was a playmaker right Neymar was a winger he was a 10 and he was a 9 when he had to be if you look at that the treble winning season. Yes, exactly. The treble winning season, Neymar is the primary finisher. He's the nine, basically. Suarez wears a number nine, but Neymar wearing 11 is actually the primary finisher, right?

47:59Vinicius has never been like a mainstream number nine and that's fine.

48:03Musa Okwonga: He's never been a mainstream playmaker. And I think that both Brazil and Real Madrid expect things from him that he's not capable of. It's not his game. And those overinflated expectations have led to a pressure point where he's now overheating in games and I don't mean to say out of control in a cruel way I mean like the loss of composure and if you factor in as well all the racism stuff that he's dealt with on top of that the thing about Vinicius is interesting right is that he's not like a Tony Kroos or a Clarence Sadov where their base level of performance is so high that despite what's happening to them in terms of attention off the field they can maintain and different different expectations different player totally but let's compare like alexis angle de maria angle de maria apart from that brief period where he was literally having the worst possible domestic situation where he got his house robbed you could rely he was the most dependable winger in world football injury not withstanding like just bowed up with injuries that's not vinicius and what worries me about him is the amount that's put on him he doesn't have a base level he's not a base level eight out of 10 player right?

49:13Ryan Hunn: No he's an 11 or lower and this player

49:16Musa Okwonga: and this is only unfortunately going to get worse and

49:19Ryan Hunn: yeah there's an interesting there's an interesting talk about what Real Madrid do and how long this is going to go on for and I think there was a piece in The Athletic from Mario Cortagana who's basically said why Real Madrid's Mbappe-Venicia's junior dilemma is Mourinho's biggest challenge and how it won't be fixed basically until one of them leaves. Quite wild if you think about it.

49:44Musa Okwonga: That also lets Mourinho off in a weird way because as much as it's a problem you don't have to play them all. You can play Dermandy on the right.

49:55Ryan Hunn: But this is the thing. He left Vinicius on the bench for the VRL game and I wonder if that was a couple of things. Take a bit of heat off him but also that Brazil squad went to Australia and India in the international break.

50:09Musa Okwonga: yeah totally

50:10Ryan Hunn: I'm surprised as many of those Rafinha's injured but you know Gabriel played for Arsenal played 90 minutes I think that's because he's Gabriel but you know Champions League coming up this week as well for Real Madrid so that's a big week perfectly understandable you're playing Villarreal who have not had a good season so far but this is a game that Real Madrid should be like they should be putting Villarreal

50:34Musa Okwonga: out of sight this is why it's not that dilemma I would say this as well I would say that like the way he's got the midfield set up I think is wrong I just Mourinho is not he's not what he was like tactically he's not what he was and even even the the Vinicius Mbappe thing Mbappe has always been a far better nine than everyone says and Vinicius actually the sad thing is defensively he's been more diligent this year than I can remember he's really tried to improve that part of his game he's really tried so I just think that I mean I think a key problem with Barcelona with Real Madrid is that Barcelona have just basically gone thermonuclear and having them just streaking ahead, not only in terms of, not just the fact that they've won all their games, but it's the performances, right?

51:17Musa Okwonga: Like Real Madrid's whole thing is no matter what happens, we're box office, right? They have a box office squad, right? They have a squad that should be talked about, but all the conversation is about those guys up there who are absolutely every week just, Rafinha was out this week, didn't matter because Gabriel Jesus was there and was like, smoking it. Koundé got a goal. Gordon has got off to a flyer. This is the thing. Barcelona have made big bets and all of them have absolutely flown.

51:47Ryan Hunn: You also got the Negreira case going on as well. Yeah, totally. Which is, and I think much in the same way that the Manchester, well, it's not much in the same, it's similar. There's similarities between the Manchester City or to the Manchester City Premier League thing where, you know, for example, Real Madrid have sent a load of stuff to UEFA now about this. Laporta is kind of firing back at Real Madrid then Real Madrid get a red card that they deem unfair and look, even at the best of times, both of these clubs are obsessed with refereeing conspiracies but I think at the moment this is going to be something that's just going to roll and roll and roll on.

52:31Ryan Hunn: It's quite convenient for Jose Mourinho actually the Mbappe Vinicius thing and the Negreira stuff I think is quite convenient for him because it allows him just to be like well hey look I mean he did it in the Atleti game right where he came out with that printout straight away but this is just going to be a thing that's going to roll on and roll on and roll on I'm really interested to see what happens in that Classico because if they go nine points behind Barcelona in that game does Jose Mourinho make it to Christmas the only reason I think he probably does is because Perez has absolutely put all of his reputation on the line with him.

53:06Ryan Hunn: He went back to him. He wanted him before he said that he was going to, if he won the election, Jose Mourinho was going to be the manager. He then won the election, what, four managers in two years now?

53:19Musa Okwonga: I'd be very worried about Madrid if I were about that Classico because Barcelona, it's not just the Barcelona. One thing that Flick has got them to be working on is match control. And they are, you know, I know it was only like the Getafe but they controlled that game and one thing he's been really pushing is like match control match control you have the supreme match controller in Rodri over there and that team is so ready to draw this thing it's more ready to draw this thing out of Real Madrid than than I've I've seen one Madrid's midfield is in disarray there's a lot of conversation about Vinicius and Bappe but the problem is the problem starts further behind actually it's from midfield if those players if you have a midfield that controls the games.

54:03Musa Okwonga: You can have a perfectly fluid front line. And frankly, if Flick was coaching this Madrid side, I think those two coexist far easier. In my opinion. That just makes me spitballing. I think he makes it work. I think he makes it work. Of course he does. Of course he does because he's Flick. And he gets the fluidity. He understands fluidity of attacks better than I think Mourinho does. I think the thing is, the reason I'd be concerned from a Madrid perspective is that Barcelona team wants to make, they want to make a statement. And we saw this. we saw this before with the 4-0 when Laminya Maul just goes there and just like goes supernova that is a possibility I'm not saying that would be the outcome but it's a it's a reasonable outcome that Madrid if they don't really get their house in order they're going to get it handed to them yeah so and because I think Barcelona don't want to win that Clasico they want to like demonstrate that could be a problem so yeah it's there's a lot to fix over there I suppose the only bright spark is that Bellingham has looked supreme this year for England at the Nations League and also he's been great for Madrid Diamande's been fantastic I'm really really happy with him because it's a 19 year old

55:11Ryan Hunn: Worth remembering that if the three match ban is upheld for Vinicius he misses the Clasico Which weirdly enough it might It's a nice excuse for Jose I know I know weirdly enough

55:24Musa Okwonga: that might actually it might make the selection process easier it might make it easier tough times hey look

55:35Ryan Hunn: just another quiet week in men's football totally oh goodness look man like you know what I don't think men should actually be allowed to play football I think they're far too emotional too emotional

55:45Musa Okwonga: too emotional

55:50it's true

55:50Musa Okwonga: it's true it's true alright man

55:52Ryan Hunn: anything else you want to shout out from the week

55:54Musa Okwonga: I think I am good I think I'm good. You think I'm good? Yes. Yes. Are you sure? I'm sure. I'm sure. Make me question myself now.

56:06Ryan Hunn: All right, then. We will leave it there for today, everyone. I hope you're all safe and well, wherever you are. We will be back on Thursday for members on Patreon. If you want to go and sign up, go and sign up. Patreon.com forward slash studio. And until Thursday, don't forget to check the studio. I'll just play us on Spotify. Speaking of which, we're playing out on Without a Sound by Dark Comedy. This is the long white label version. anything you would like to add Musa Kwonga nothing further

56:30Musa Okwonga: oh a very happy birthday to other members of the stadio community there were two yesterday and one today so yeah shout out to you and I'm sure there's others as well but yeah I hope you're having as lovely a time you get a birthday you get a birthday you get a birthday everyone

56:44Ryan Hunn: happy birthday everyone happy birthday everyone all the time I got

56:49Musa Okwonga: it's one of my presents peek behind the curtain I got I got a big dressing gown with a hood and I've just been wandering everywhere like was it Assassin's Creed Kermit Kermit Yoda Assassin's Creed.

56:58Ryan Hunn: The dark side Kermit. Do it. I'm so happy. All right, everyone on that note, much love. Back with you on Thursday. See you then.

57:28Thank you.

57:57Thank you.

58:27Without a sound.

58:57Thank you.

59:48Ryan Hunn: I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro.

59:53Musa Okwonga: Shh.

59:53Ryan Hunn: I can keep my old phone.

59:55Musa Okwonga: Can I also get the latest iPhone every year? Shh, anything else? Verizon, let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment. Purchase or separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.