Episode 700 - Matches worth more than the three points

0:00Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini.

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1:47Musa Okwonga: hello and welcome back to the stadio podcast i'm mr quonga i'm ryan hun ryan how are you doing i am doing all right thanks man how are you doing you're better than me i'll tell you that much Me? It's just football. Yeah, it is just football. It is just football. Do not let that lot govern your week. Do you know what? Actually, they don't. They don't. Good. Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into Chelsea, Manchester United in a moment, but still. Yeah, I think we will, actually. We will talk about that a little bit because on Thursday's show on Patreon, we did a bit of a Manchester United chat because it felt like Michael Carrick was going to be fired last week and he wasn't.

2:24Musa Okwonga: And actually, do you know what? Can I say this as well? before we get to the main discussion, there's conversations about his demeanour and this and that, but he's never been an angry dude. So why would you want him to be shouting and screaming? It's not the way that he leads. And frankly, if they'd got off to a better first half and actually finished some of those, we'd be saying it was just a controlled performance. So anyway, I just think football is just one of those, it's just a deeply irrational sport. And the people that should be taking responsibility, it's a silly sport. It's silly. The people that should be taking responsibility but they should be out front.

2:55Musa Okwonga: I know it to be seen. It's, it's, it's, it's, yeah. Oh, well. That's the podcast, everyone. We hope everyone's staying safe and well. Yes. I hope you are. If your team didn't do well this weekend, we hope that you found some joy elsewhere. A quick bit of admin. If you would like to support Stadio, get every episode ad-free info. Go to patreon.com forward slash Stadio. Sign up as a podcast member if you just want the podcasts, or if you want to join the Stadio Social Club which includes all the podcast ad free info plus access to the Stadio Social Club discord loads of other perks like discord hangouts we had one last week we're going to have one in a couple of weeks as well more stuff coming soon on that front go and sign up if you are a free member on Patreon you are not getting access to all the fun stuff the last couple of months is quite a busy period for renewals make sure you go and check your payment details because more often than not it just stops because of that so boring admin i know but um we'd love to have you and uh we'd be very very appreciative of the support as well and thanks to everyone who has been a member and is a member means a lot today it's our 700th episode today 700 up 700 700 episodes what is that about that's too many podcasts i mean that means you probably heard 1400 in terms of the actual Happy 700th episode, dude.

4:23Musa Okwonga: Do you have a favourite episode? This one. Good answer. Keeping the native saffy. Just taking it one episode at a time. Smart man. It doesn't really matter how many episodes we've done. We just focus on the next one. Focus on the next one. A lot of episodes a season. It's a long season.

4:48Favourite episode? I mean, I think my favourite episodes are always the Football Things to Be Grateful for episodes and the studios. They come at that nice point of the year where you've got like the Christmas bit and then that, my favourite week of the year is that week between Christmas and New Year. Oh my God, the best time of the year. It's just the best. Oh my goodness. It's the best time of year, right? We usually give ourselves a little bit of a break then. But yeah, I just really, I really enjoy getting those, like hearing those kind of submissions from listeners and in a sport that does its best to absolutely push you away from it.

5:24Those are the moments that bring you closer together I think are really cool. And the fact that that started in a, that was something that we started in COVID because it was just like, this is horrible. And yeah, really nice that something like that has made as much sense out of a pandemic as in a pandemic.

5:42Musa Okwonga: That's a great shout. And actually, as you say this and I go off the back of this. You know that moment you talk about the favourite time of the year, the gap between Christmas and New Year. Isn't that like the moment where your team is like 3-0 up and we're just hearing the olays? You mean you're resting in possession? You're like, yep. Oh, it's the best. It is the best time of the year. That time of the year is so good. It's when you, you know what it is? It's when you watch that blockbuster movie that came over Christmas for the second time. So you watch it on the 18th or 19th, right? So in this case, like Dune 3.

6:12Musa Okwonga: That is when I'm going to watch Dune 3 for the second time. I might go on Christmas day oh my goodness the near empty the near well depending on how lucky you are if you get like a certain viewing it's like the near empty cinema because the city just hollows out the city just totally hollows out in that gap Berlin's great for that actually Berlin around the 23rd of December is just it's my happiest place so good it was like gone and I'm just like yeah so good actually Berlin on that time of year yeah oh good times anyway anyway do you have a favourite kind of episode um I'm gonna sound quite uh crowd pleasing but I always like the celebratory ones um I don't do him the Diego Maradona one yeah that one when we we just talked about his yeah when we just talked about his life and like his career and the legacy um yeah it's I think those ones where you really get to go just riff and I think you know some of the conceptual ones where you're just or even any podcast where you just take a theme and just run with it you know those ones where you just you could be talking about a goal for example I mean that that time that Zidane you know after Michael Alise scores against Belgium the last minute and Zidane does that incredible run-up and just rips it off the tee like those ones where you just go and you can just riff about a thing like that for 20 minutes I love those ones I love it when I love it when football gets detached from the moment like it gets detached from the specific game and becomes like a reflection on life or that particular player's arc I think those are my favourite sort of moments in podcasts but yeah I think a personal favourite is probably the episode we did all about passing where you're explaining passing you're explaining passes in an audio format to people loved it anyway anyway we should probably talk about some of that I mean yeah we've got a lot of games to get through today but we wanted to say thank you to everyone who has been with us since the beginning or since last week or however long you've been with us and anyone who shares our stuff recommended it to a friend bought merch signed up as a member we bought a ticket to a live show we really really appreciate it and But yeah, man, seven years and 700 episodes is too long for two dudes to be talking about anything.

8:46It's too long. It's too long. That's true. I think after 600 episodes, we were asking whether we're going to be here after another 600.

9:00So we're now down to, are we going to be still here after 500? That is hilarious.

9:07Musa Okwonga: I don't know, man. I think if we are, then something's wrong with all of you. To be honest, I mean, there are people who've, people have been here, like, there's people have been here. There are people who've listened, I think, for like 90 % of the episodes. That's the wild thing about it. I had a friend actually a while ago who, when I spoke to them, I was like, man, I've not spoke to you for ages. And he was just like, what do you, and then he kind of like checked himself. I was like, oh, no, we actually haven't. I listen to the show all the time. And I realized that I just, I should actually probably call you as well, because I just never, because I'm so, and it was just the moment of realization.

9:46Musa Okwonga: I was like, oh yeah, I kind of forget that we actually don't talk. You know, and you don't realize how people listen to stuff. And this is not an apology for sounding too self-referential, because like, I don't really talk much about Stadia with my friends, right? I just do it. but you don't realise how much people are like conscious of your habits of the podcast and you're doing it so I had a friend around and she my microphone is just like you know in the living room right she's walking past on her way to the kitchen and she goes up to the mic and then she just pauses and she goes and then she walks off out of nowhere that's really funny that's genuinely quite funny and like she got she hit the light she's she's gone I was like man that's amazing I'm gonna cook you for that that's really funny that's amazing so good so good she didn't say that's three straight champions league she cooked that was enough I was dead I was already dead stop he's already dead alright we've got a lot of football to get into today so let's get into it hey we're Nick and Jack hosts of The Best One Yet Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

11:02With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini. Most AI knows data. Toast IQ knows restaurants. It helps turn Detroit 75's numbers, plus what works across thousands of restaurants, into insights we can actually use.

11:37That's AI that's worked a double without a lunch break. Visit toasttab.com to learn more. Pay testimonial from an actual Toast customer. There is only one place to begin, though, Musa. Oh, no.

11:55Musa Okwonga: Where is it? Where is it? There's only one place to begin. Is it Jimmy Leipzig? Like one of the outfield players had to go in goal over in that fixture. But it's probably not that one. I mean, hello? You have my attention.

12:13Musa Okwonga: It was a Greifswalder FC against BSG, Jimmy Leipzig. And one of the outfield players had to go in goal. but yeah it's probably not that one but still thought I'd mention it but yes where are we beginning? I mean you had the Copa Libertadores Femenina on the weekend Cruzeiro being Corinthians huge yeah the game itself was 4-0 with a 91st minute equaliser for Cruzeiro unreal after being two goals down wasn't it yep so I mean to be honest that is a pretty good there's only one place to begin 4-0 in a final in a Copa Libertadores and congratulations to Cruzeiro for beating Corinthians in the final on penalties.

12:51Let's start at Anfield because I think the theme from this weekend was, and with this, there was a lot of games this weekend that we could have talked about. So, and we will touch on them, but it felt like one of the biggest statement weekends in the men's calendar so far this season, right? Where you had Liverpool Arsenal, Chelsea Manchester United, that Manchester City Brighton rematch after midweek was always going to be something interesting. That game is important coming

13:19Musa Okwonga: so soon after the caravan. Exactly. You had the Derby della Madanina which I think is really really important. You had Juve Napoli which is probably less crucial but Historically huge. Historically a big game. You had the Basque Derby which was a really important one for both clubs. More, I think a little more important for Athletic considering they were at home. Barcelona and Real Madrid playing sides that they would have been fancied to they would have fancied to beat. And you also had Bayern Dortmund right yeah and the Bayern Dortmund one we'll come on to later but I think was one of the more fascinating games of the weekend genuinely because the amount of times that we have had a Bayern Dortmund game in October November and it's almost ended the title race yeah well not ended but it's been like oh okay well I think it was a it was a mega point for Dortmund for a start but also some interesting Harry Kane stuff going on.

14:20So I suppose the theme of the weekend is games that were bigger than three points.

14:25Musa Okwonga: And horrible, horrible fixtures were three points. Three points. You know, the thing about these fixtures, I think they're all totally known as statement fixtures you call them, or horrible fixtures, simply because when Ian used to say it a lot, simply because. I love that. It's one of my favourite phrases of his. Simply because when you have a fixture like this you know Arsenal had a stumble and then you've got like Liverpool and it's just we would rather just get through this game but you can't simply just it's not a game you can just play it's not like playing I don't know it's not like a cosy home game against a newly promoted side for example yeah for example for example or a team where you have traditionally quite a good mismatch where or match up so they play let's say quite open and you like to get them behind them It's not one of those.

15:19Musa Okwonga: It's like Liverpool at Anfield has been historically a horrible fixture. It's been a horrible fixture. It's like United going to Ellen Road. It's never been an experience you look at and go, oh great, we're going to Ellen Road. Like that has never happened, right? That has never happened. You just get whatever points you can and get the hell out of there. And Liverpool, you know, a foreboding opponent for Arsenal in particular because they hadn't won there since, what, 2012? Yep. And Mikel Arteta was in that starting XI. And so, yeah, it's been a place that Arsenal have always struggled with and it's a place that I think triggers quite a lot of anxiety for Arsenal fans.

15:55And I think now that Arsenal are champions and Liverpool are in this transitional phase, second season after winning the title a couple of years ago. Yeah. New manager. I think it also, you could sense that it was quite an anxious, like it was quite an anxious game for both sets of fans, I think.

16:12Musa Okwonga: It was because the flow of the game was so weird. So you had Liverpool playing some fantastic football and then Arsenal just counter-punching. Liverpool looked really, really very good in certain phases. There was, some of the transition football was spectacular. I think weirdly, it took Arsenal's goal for Liverpool to snap into life. Yeah, even before that there was some nice movement from Liverpool. I felt they were imposing themselves and you see the kind of, you see the Arreola methods being absorbed. You see his coaching taking effect. You could actually see it in real time. It was funny.

16:45Musa Okwonga: It was like watching it's a real work in progress Liverpool but you can see the direction of travelling like this is going to work this is going to click like if they start finishing certain chances if they get slightly luckier like you know if the Vietzví kick is an inch lower then it's an all-timer right so you're seeing Iriola and actually I think this is a good time it sounds like a weird thing to say it's a good time for Arsenal to play Liverpool and Anfield yeah yeah no I 100 % agree it's two months from now that is those combinations those chemistry is locked in whereas I thought Arsenal to their credit they leapt on everything they were offered the goal was a perfect example of that the way they press when it's played out it's not the greatest ball out let's be honest but the way that you have like Rice overlapping who was everywhere and I think that's the theme of this game I think and Declan Rice typifying it with you know scoring a winner from the right wing but being everyone in the centre Yuri and Timber assisting the winner Yuri and Timber and Declan Rice they did the Luka Modric thing of when you start on the pitch in a certain place, but where you end up is completely different.

17:49Musa Okwonga: Like the ability of Rice and Timber to occupy spaces that you didn't start in and to turn up in spaces that completely, I mean, Timber at some points was the furthest player forward. He was in field. He was out on the right. He was busy, busy to the point of being chaotic. I don't think he was quite chaotic, but he was everywhere. Well, speaking of chaotic, you see Mikel Arteta with a stadio-coded quote for the ages afterwards, who said, we generated our own chaos. that's amazing which I thought but I thought that was the theme of the game right and I think this is where Arsenal you see games like this and this is where Arsenal I think really come into their own a little bit because people have this idea about Arsenal which I don't think is fully accurate still and I think we said this last year where the thing that I think one of the things that makes this Arsenal team so good is that they have multiple ways to hurt you in the way that considering they're not renowned for their attacking fluidity at this Arsenal side, and I think that Andrew Mangan wrote a thing on Blue Sky saying, if this Arsenal team was anywhere near as good offensively as they are defensively, they'd be the best team in the world by distance.

18:58And I think that's probably quite accurate, because there are moments where you look at the attacking fluidity and you're just a bit like, oh man, they get a goal and then they kind of, they are so comfortable absorbing a load of pressure that the onus isn't really to go and get it. But I think what happens with this game was, this wasn't Arsenal just camped on the edge of their box. There were moments that happened. There was that period in the first half where Arsenal had to absorb a load of pressure, right? But even though it maybe looks a little uneasier on the eye and it probably makes fans feel a little more anxious, I think Arsenal are just as comfy with it being a transition game as they are with it being...

19:40Musa Okwonga: The transition goal they nearly scored when Havertz doesn't put in the far post is one of the best attacking moves you will see in a game of that quality all season. And the player that initiates it is Madueke, a player that's not always given credit for decision-making. That moment, his decision-making on the edge of the box to hold it, and it was what they call Pauza, actually, in Spain. That would not have been out of place in a Spain team. And the funny thing is, actually, and this is going to sound ridiculous, but I've started, so I'll finish, because I'm on a hot take streak at the moment.

20:11Musa Okwonga: there's a there's a ridiculous argument and i'll make it very briefly there's a shade of the total football element there where arsenal occupying spaces where a player that is a winger comes in field and is initiating as a six you have declan rise peeling out as a nine all of that you have players in such unconventional positions and i think when you're playing a team like liverpool anfield the instruction to make it weird is probably an explicit one like turn up in really confusing positions because they're expecting you in that formation to initiate this and that but if you are turning up in places where they don't expect you to then you can't build up with the same confidence and i think look i was confused as a viewer and i'm sure it was confusing as a liverpool player um and this game if you look at the pass completion it's kind of like less than 2016 you know high risk high reward 72 i mean less than less than completed like 75 of passes like 60 or whatever it was in some games and it was really like okay force the ball through gaps be competitive be punchy this is a Liverpool team that is still trying to find its chemistry it's an unconventional midfield pairing they're not going to be that what's cohesive there will be gaps just play through them if you can and I've got to say as well to Liverpool's credit with some slightly sharper finishing they could have got at least a point I mean if you look I mean a player who we were talking before that we started recording McAllister who actually had despite the shenanigans really had quite a good game the clear miss that McAllister had from the header should go in so presentable as a chance so Liverpool I think so much that's positive to take from this despite the defeat yeah I agree actually because I think that and I don't want this to sound patronising in any way because I thought Virgil van Dijk was really good I love his post-match interviews man I just love him he's so it's amazing the question was put to him despite obviously disappointing in the defeat but is there a lot to be positive about you know and he was just like no no I'm disappointed like he was just really just like no no I'm disappointed and I think that's that's a good that's a really good mentality to have actually because the early stages of Bournemouth's Iriola they went on that winless run for a while it took him a while to get going I think it can be it can take a while for people to get used to his methods especially because because he's very, very different to slot.

22:33But also, there's a lot of moving parts in that Liverpool side. Players coming back from serious injuries. Nione midfield, young players. Nione coming in. New signings like Bradley Barkela, who I think is already clicking. And that triangle on that left-hand side of Wietz, Isaac and Barkela is going to be lethal.

22:55Musa Okwonga: They're going to hand it to someone. They really are. I genuinely think they, because I think the chemistry between those three just vibe wise as well you know when you're just like okay these guys it's like watching it's like watching a like a a band or an artist early on and just being straight away being like these guys are going to be massive you can see it Captain Obvious side of that is well yeah they should be right the amount of money that they've cost yeah of course but that doesn't guarantee chemistry as we've seen look at Manchester United numerous places look at Manchester United yeah the amount we've spent and I think also just the confidence thing Andy Robertson said that time on Stick to Football and I think it was it's funny how it's taken a couple of hit things that he said for people to really switch on to what that Liverpool side were dealing with last year and he was talking about the new signings like Vietz and Izak and even Eketike how difficult it was for them to come into the dressing room last year and especially when they have the season that they had that can take a real knock on a confidence of two players who were very very highly totally I think there are loads of positive signs there for Liverpool and this was one of those games where a number of results could have come out of this.

23:59Liverpool win, a draw, Arsenal win. I think it was one of those that you could say all would have potentially been justifiable in terms of the game state, right? Liverpool missed a couple of really, really big chances. The penalty shout on Izak is such a weird one, right? Because that looks like... I thought it was one. Well, I did as well, right? I was just like, I'm looking at it being like, okay, how is that not a penalty in terms of you're looking at the action? and I've been thinking about this and thinking about this I'm like why because I'm no no I'm not so much about that because I feel like loads of decisions just are incomprehensible in the Premier League it's just so silly like that with VAR but I was I was thinking about it more from Izak's reaction because players know I am so intrigued by his reaction to it he doesn't really he doesn't he doesn't he just turns around to and him and Timber are chatting about something.

24:56And the only reason, and this is the only thing that I can come up with, and this isn't necessarily my point of view on it, I'm just thinking like, why wasn't there a reaction from Isaac in terms of, I'm not expecting him to go down, but at least run to the referee and be like, I just had my shirt pulled, what the hell, I'm going up for a header. Is that he thinks, yeah, I'm not even going to get to that. I'm not going to get... Even without the shirt pull. That's the only thing I can think of that maybe stops all hell from breaking loose. It's so funny.

25:23Musa Okwonga: No, I think, yeah, I think if it had been, I think there's a penalty that United get against PSG. McTominay hits a shot and someone puts the hands up and the ball's going high and wide and it ends up being a penalty and United get it and win. I feel this was a similar one where it was like, that's well clear. And I think also as well, I think it's a mixture of that is why he doesn't go for it. And also there's an element of so much happens in the box that refs don't see. I think there's an element of like, there's so much jostling, and there's so much stuff. But that's clear, and they can see it on VAR, so I think that thing's just...

25:58Musa Okwonga: I think in the moment, when you're playing, you're not thinking... They said to Van Dijk after, do you think that Izak should have sold it a bit more? And he was like, there's like 50 cameras. Why would he want to sell it more? Yeah, exactly. That's my point. And I don't want to dwell too much on decisions like that, but I think it was a penalty purely from the action, right? It speaks quite well to Izak, actually. I think the reason Izak doesn't sell it more is because he... And this is the only thing I can, and again, look, just to clarify for any Liverpool fans out there, I think it was a penalty from the action.

26:30And if it was my team, I would want one. But you know, it's like I said, players know, right? And he must just think, yeah, I'm not getting to that anyway. Or maybe the shirt pull isn't hindering him as much as it looks on the action. And that's the only thing I can assume because otherwise, everyone would be losing their shit about it. But there were a few, we were joking about it in the stadio social club discord weren't we saying that um or i was i should say we have dragged you into this about how this kind of feels like one of those games that proves there

27:01Musa Okwonga: isn't really a refereeing conspiracy yes yes exactly it's like the one thing that united everyone was just the decisions no one was happy no one was happy what's that thing you said once i can't remember the episode one of my favorite things you're like everyone's angry

27:17Musa Okwonga: if this had been a one-all draw then everyone would have been angry yeah there was no A late Liverpool equaliser. Everyone would be angry. Because I think the only initially, he probably commits two yellow card offences in the first 10 minutes. But then again, there's part of me that's just like, I'm quite glad that they got let go in a way because I don't think they were howlers. I don't think they were super dangerous. I know that Mateta got sent off for one on Van der Ven on Saturday, but that is way worse than I think the only is in the first minute. There was a World Cup game. There was a World Cup, I can't remember it was, was it like a, I think it was in Brazil actually and there was a game there was a fixture Neymar gets when Neymar the fixture Neymar gets his back broken was Brazil-Colombia and the referee I think was European and one of the critiques was this referee does not know how to referee the flow of a South American game there's a particular flow to these games where like these huge regional rivals there's so much at stake and there are stoppages here, here and here and the ref was basically just allowing too much.

28:24Musa Okwonga: And I think reffing these games, and we're talking about fixtures being big than the average fixture. An Arsenal-Liverpool game, this vast pre-history and this like huge, like, you know, there's decades of historical needle. Going into certain games as a referee, what is the thinking as a ref being like, I've got to like establish control in the first 10, 15 minutes. Or, you know, there's a young player who makes a reckless foul. I've got to let that go because that player's going to run hot, the early red. Yeah, see, I think it's more careless than reckless, right? And I think that's the thing that you have to, the great thing about the laws of the game is that they're subjective, right?

28:59Musa Okwonga: I'm amazed, for example, I'm amazed we didn't see a red in the Bass Derby. I'm amazed. Do you know why? Because just the number of yellows, it wasn't a malicious game, it wasn't malicious. It was just high intensity, passionate tackles and loose, and they were like players on yellows for a while. And it just, I think it's credit to the referee in a game like that where the game, it doesn't boil over. This wasn't a dirty game, Liverpool-Arslan. I don't think it was a dirty game. I think it was needle. But I, hot take, controversial take, I think the ref just about got some decisions wrong. Sorry to make you angry, listeners.

29:38Musa Okwonga: But there were some situations that I think he handled actually quite well. There are some yellows, right, that are almost like keep the change yellows. yeah yeah and there's a certain threshold that even if they are technically a yellow you're just like no we're good yeah i think so i think so and i think that the thing about the the first one that neoni i think if that's probably 25 30 minutes into the game he probably gets a yellow for that yeah he he does commit another one a few minutes later which is probably could also be a yellow but then again what what purpose does that actually serve the game it's not anything that's super obvious in that sense and i was fine i was actually fine with it like i know that there's that you know everyone wants to argue about referees all the time i get it but like i think that that game was a specific type of game i think i actually think both teams benefited from that early looseness from from the refereeing decisions the difficulty rating of ref of reffing liverpool arsenal is just if you rank like in a league table the difficulty rating of this fixture.

30:43Musa Okwonga: That Anfield as well because that Anfield is intense. Not easy. Good example. The Madureke McAllister thing. McAllister was kind of began. He didn't start the game running hot but he began to run hot. It's strange. Like he actually he didn't begin as an agent of chaos. I feel like him and Timber passed each other in the chaos rankings actually. It's weird. It's like watching Mario Kart. Yeah it was. It was. It was. The chaos crown. Yeah yeah yeah. The chaos crown passed. It passed. it passed to McAllister at some point and I think the good example of that was there were refs who would have handed out like bigger cards in the next stages it was fine like I think look it was really silly from McAllister I don't think it's he's got he did that there was some stuff doing the rounds last year I think or from last year when same thing happened with Konza when they played Villa look it's just whatever man like it happens all the time and I think it winds people up and I wish it wasn't present because it's so especially now when like Virgil van Dijk says you've got like 50 cameras you just look ridiculous and there was a lot of I think that both teams were trying to sell some stuff yesterday and a bit of it got a bit tetchy I don't think it boiled over no I don't think so but I thought it was quite funny that the first person to get a yellow was actually someone on the bench I think it was a Liverpool coach got booked first but yeah again look if you want to go forensic and go over every single decision you probably end up just turning yourself into a ball of rage I don't think there was anything glaringly obvious yesterday apart from the penalty shout on which we've discussed I know that some people might disagree with this there are flows to games like you mentioned and there are certain vibes of games and I think that not every game needs to have the same heavy handedness or level of heavy handedness, I don't think.

32:42Musa Okwonga: Can I say this as a non-Liverpool fan and watching this game and looking at some of the stats, what, 17 attempts on goal, none on target, 50 odd touches in the opposition box. At some point, they're going to catch fire. And this is one of those defeats where you look at it and you look back and go, that is where something shifted. You know, like, you have this as an Arsenal fan, like as a United fan, hopefully at some point I'll have this, you know, a few months from now, where you have a defeat, but you're like, actually no we'll take that because we can see that like the way that barclay was moving in these like inside left spaces he's really good and the i was i'm not i can say it now because you know we're a few weeks past it i was a little bit nervous i must say because there were so many moving parts the little front three and i was worried about whether he'd find the spaces but his his combination play is brilliant um my only thing with barclay is if the finishing just locks in then he's going to fly but I think he will because I think this Liverpool front line is going to generate so many opportunities and you can see how much Iriola currently trusts Vietz and the way that Vietz is starting games is really really encouraging the way he started this game I thought was superb and the first 15 when they were on the front foot and he was finding all the gaps and playing the one touch and you know Vietz is going to be weirdly enough and this sounds like I'm making excuses for him.

34:01Musa Okwonga: And I am because I love him as a player. He will be the final piece to click completely because so much, he's such a relational player that if everything around him is fixed, then he takes flight and he doesn't have, I mean, with the greatest respect to the Liverpool's midfield configuration, he's not playing in front of Pedri and Rodri. He's not. And it's totally different. Like when that guy's playing in front of two sixes who have a fantastic the chemistry and who are at the absolute peak of their games and Neoni is still coming into his own he's young right and McAllister is in a sort of in-between you know period like contract not renewed not at his peak if Vietz is playing in a team which has that chemistry then he just he catches he catches fire and I think the rest of the attack does too and again like just Liverpool fans and Liverpool players I just yeah just please don't make it be against us I'd really appreciate that when is when is Liverpool Manchester United goodness me I mean that Liverpool attack against our centre-backs it's going to be a long afternoon it's the first game back after the international break on a Sunday where is it home or away Anfield oh my goodness see that's that's not not looking forward to that at all I'm getting cooked yeah not gonna lie I'm getting cooked alright so that took Arsenal three points clear at the top because the day before or Brighton had won at Manchester City for the first time in their history in the league.

35:34Musa Okwonga: Brighton, oh my... Brighton at this point in history, at this moment, are better. They're better than Manchester City. They're better at this specific... In the power rankings... At this specific moment. At this specific moment, like to go and do that, to come off the back of the Carabao Cup defeat and to go there and beat them and to hold out and produce a kind of different kind of performance. I cannot express my admiration enough for this Brighton team. I'm just, we've been cheated of a title race between Brighton and Arsenal. And we've been cheated of the excitement of it. And what I mean by that is Arsenal top now just after their win yesterday.

36:12Musa Okwonga: And I'm so frustrated because I want to experience the pure excitement of an Arsenal-Brighton title race. Because these are, in my opinion, the best two teams in the division. The best two teams in the division. The way they open up opposition, and this is a different type of victory where they take the lead and they have to hold out. The Lewis dunk tackle. Oh my goodness. The dunk tackle to deny was at Haaland. Absolutely elite. Where he basically allows him to get the shot off. Like a less experienced defender could crash Haaland and concede a penalty. But to trust yourself enough to let him get the shot off and block it is just.

36:53Musa Okwonga: it's it's it's absolutely he's a titan that the what Herzler is doing I mean Herzler we talked about having that kind of like he had that glitch didn't he where he had to figure stuff out and then it's just been a straight ascent since then and they'd lost a ton of players and they brought in new talent he's coaching the hell out of that squad I mean it's just if he carries on like this Herzler like wherever Brighton end up he is in with a coach of the year shout from from UEFA if he carries on like this just producing performances of this quality and City didn't have an answer for it didn't have an answer for it massive win for Brighton incredible massive win yeah yeah incredible that's about defeats for City now not that it probably really matters to be honest because who knows what's going to happen but did enjoy some light-hearted Mancunian banter over the weekend which was it might be a Manchester derby in the championship next season it might be it might be what did someone say it was a race to the bottom a race to the bottom right Manchester United have won one Premier League game this season they've now drawn four lost four listen listen can I say our relegation will be organic organic relegation listen we didn't we didn't need we didn't need these artificial relegation our charges no we organic listen yeah grassroots oh man right let's talk about this game because as we mentioned we're not going to do big picture Manchester United stuff because we kind of did that on Thursday and I don't really want Moussa to have to go through that again so quickly but from Chelsea's point of view let's talk about Chelsea quickly before we talk about Manchester United I mean Chelsea in the second half really turned it on they responded so well after the break because in the first half they looked I thought miles off it actually yeah I agree I agree there's a lot to figure out there and I think the fact that they over first of all didn't concede it's the first clean sheet they've had at home for ages and especially in that first half when Manchester United probably could have got in a couple up at the break.

38:53And then to change it in the second half, come out the way that they did, score the goals they did and end up winning comfortably.

39:00Musa Okwonga: Can I say what I love about this Chelsea team? What I absolutely love? Lavia, Caicedo in midfield is incredible. That is a truly elite midfield. Truly elite. Already, already. It's amazing. It's amazing. So, Romeo Lavia, some quick stats right okay this is what he did defensively five tackles four interceptions 14 ball recoveries absolute but he does it both ways like I think I might have mentioned this I think he was a player who I was quite excited that Chelsea picked up and I thought that he was a real like a brilliant player in the squad I know they've got like Malagusta they played in the middle but I feel like as someone that advances the ball he's a different level right like in terms of he's not just a stopper he really can play Lavia an amazing player and really hyped for him because I think he had a bit of a doldrum in his professional career like as a club like he wasn't quite I think in the shop window as an elite player as I'd like him to be when I saw him like first emerging I thought that that's a guy that's going to be like one of the top players and I think Lavia Carseido that's that's the midfield he built around actually so yeah Chelsea I think had to weather the first half because United were really really good and shout out to Esteval as well yeah yeah it's a strange thing going on with Chelsea though where they they were slow start to them Esteval two disallowed goals and I think was very good throughout but United in this game it's the fragility that's going to right let's let's do the United bit before we move on from this.

40:32So, because what on earth is going on? Okay, so it's the hallmark of teams

40:39Musa Okwonga: that plummet fast, which is they actually play quite good football when they're in a rhythm, right? Like the first half, we saw some really great play from Bumo. Bruno Financi missed an absolute, like a sitter really, which is just a low confidence thing. So the generating chance is not scoring. And the moment they conceded, it fell apart. Like, and this is, this sort of characterised the worst of United in recent years. The inability to recover from a setback where all of a sudden the confidence just goes and you see the body language. I mean, Harry Maguire, the total evaporation of composure in this game.

41:16Musa Okwonga: I don't like to sort of call players out, but when you see confidence literally melting in real time, you have to mention it. Like it's just, it's so visible. There were a few times in the first half, even in the first half where he was a little bit slow to the ball. And in the second half, where he's kind of waving sort of almost forlornly, hoping it'll be an offside. But the goal from Rodgers where neither him or Martinez know which direction to make a challenge. It's a lack of speed. It's a lack of confidence in being proactive. And they look kind of, they look lost. And this will sound quite mean again, but if you look at United starting 11, What concerns me is if I look at half that team, I can be like, okay, half that team definitely starts for teams like 12 and upwards.

42:07Musa Okwonga: The other half, I'm not sure how many of those 11 are regular starters in a Premier League team. Martinez looked very much like someone who's playing in the final year of his contract and is just out of there. I wouldn't be surprised if they flipped him somewhere in January, actually. That's interesting. Because I doubt he's going to stay. that penalty is so silly I just don't really get it and this is where I feel for Carrick and we said this last week there's just a bit of a void of any sense of responsibility or leadership United away fans have been pretty good on this actually and I know that a lot of people will get a bit annoyed with or have issue with Carrick kind of doing the big clapping and kind of patting the you know but actually he knows that he's not going to be Manchester United manager in 10 years time and he can also see how much the club is just disintegrating around him yeah yeah and I think he probably looks around the dressing room and he's like actually the only people I really have faith in to take us anywhere near to where we're going to be are too young to do it on their own they need experience around them to guide them and when the experience heads aren't acting that way it's just such a it's such a difficult situation and there will be more managerial talks and we'll talk about it but why people talking about Emery I just don't I don't think give Villa I think it's offensive I think it's offensive to I think give Villa or Unai Emery enough credit for the situation that he has there and the reason why it works managers aren't just plug and play no and I think managers especially nowadays are way because of the wealth in the Premier League a lot of times it would be wealth and status and stuff like that.

43:52If you're in the Champions League and you're competing at the higher levels, I know Villa have had ups and downs in the league this season, but Unai Emery is in the process of a rebuild and I would be extremely surprised if he is remotely even considering, even if there has been contact, I would be extremely surprised if he is remotely considering the Manchester United job.

44:11Musa Okwonga: I would go so far as to say that if Unai Emery took the Manchester United job, I wouldn't want him to take it on the basis that I was not sure this decision-making was sufficiently sound. When you're going to employ a manager, and I felt we shouldn't, Carrick is still in the job. There has to be a plan for you. And so when I see people going, oh, like Carrick's demeanor isn't this, it isn't that, he's not more bullish. Well, actually, there's a lot of coaches that never lost their temper and they won plenty. And I think the problem is, we're almost looking for, you know, it reminds me of like when you've got, was it the chairman of the Federal Reserve was trying to restart America's economy and just like, you know, cut interest rates and that was like the thing.

44:52Musa Okwonga: And when you keep pulling the lever for so long, right, at a certain point the lever, it works well, then at some point it stops working and you've got to try something else. And I think United for so long or Premier League clubs, the lever, you pull the lever, you pull the lever, you sack someone and you're pulling the lever and it doesn't work anymore. And United, not to go over this again because we discussed this in length on Thursday and we'll probably do it again soon enough, but, That team, unfortunately, has all the hallmarks of a relegation side because the senior players, to your point, aren't getting it done.

45:26Musa Okwonga: Maguire and Martinez are not a central defensive pairing, but you look at and think, I'm intimidated by that. And then you look at the defence midfielders in front of them, who are young, Plymer, Trey, you know, Belieber and Santos. It's the perfect storm, actually, of discontent. And then you have Bruno Financi, a player who set an assist record last year, but in the second half struggled to complete a forward pass. Struggled to complete a forward pass. There were points where he was caught on the half turn, and you see this total lack of attacking chemistry, but also a lack of ideas, and also this element of trying to force the play.

46:04you know

46:05Musa Okwonga: the chance that he missed in the first half he scores last season he scores last season the chance that Amar Diallo misses you know this is the same Amar Diallo that scores late winners in the FA Cup against the biggest rivals the stage is getting bigger and bigger for the young players because they don't have that mentorship leadership there's a lack of leadership because frankly the older players are they're fearing for their jobs at some point or they should be So yeah, an absolute mess. And there's a, it comes to a point where when I look at, I know it's bad, and I look at, and I've said this before about United, but I look at some of the young players and I think to myself, and I know I live in Germany, so I'm biased, but I'm like, get a loan to a German club.

46:50Musa Okwonga: There are a couple of those young centre-backs I'm thinking, get your loan to Leverkusen, you know, get your loan to X, whatever, and start rebuilding, get your career development, go to like a Freiburg, get the club to pay 80 % of your salary and just go somewhere to get regular games and just continue your career development because he will not get it at United. I even look at like Blumens and goal and I think you can't afford a couple more years behind a defence like this for your own career. Like if I was an agent, if I was a player agent for a young player at United, I'd be shopping them around.

47:25Musa Okwonga: I would absolutely be shopping them around because Aidan Heaven and Lenny Yorou cannot have another year like this for what they want to do with their careers. They don't deserve it, actually. And that sounds really, really bleak, but it's so fragile. Anyway. Right, some of the Premier League results just very quickly. Shouts to Bournemouth. Bournemouth are on a run. And you said, like you said last time, no goals conceded. Again, their defensive record's amazing. Marco Rose is really, really making them click now. And we saw this early on, and I'm repeating what I said last week, but the Man City game, the Everton home draw, when they conceded that goal late, the signs were there in those first few games that Bournemouth were really, really good.

48:02And now, look, he inherited a really good team that Iriola did really good stuff in, but I think it was unbelievable that they've managed to maintain that level from last year and actually improve in terms of getting results. And going into Europe as well, man, shouts to Marco Rosa.

48:19Musa Okwonga: The City defeat, weirdly enough, this is the hot take, was a good thing because it allowed them to go under the radar a bit. If they'd won that game, it would have been like, oh my God, all eyes on Bournemouth. but because they got that defeat it kind of allowed things to settle down and they could just quietly build and quietly cook the Chelsea defeat was a big one and they lost those back to back games where they lost at home to Liverpool and then they got hammered by Chelsea at Stamford Bridge that's a weird it was just a weird one though right also Chelsea scored some bangers in that one exactly like the actual game itself didn't really feel like a 5-1 but yeah amazing result for them Brentford with 2 against Forest missed, two deflected goals.

48:59I'm lucky for Forrest. Coventry beating Sunderland 3-1, Sunderland down to 10. Another good win for Coventry though. They're now above Manchester United, which is frankly wild.

49:09Musa Okwonga: They've done so well to pull that round. I mean, I always thought they would because they play really good football. They're kind of doing a lead. Some of them are like leads, they just didn't draw games. Yeah, yeah. Hole two, Ipswich two of the battle of the two teams that came up this year. Spurs beating Palace 2-0 as we mentioned Mateta got sent off quite early for that foul on van der Veen but Spurs turned it around man yep definitely looking good now after that early season wobble Villa held it home to Fulham who were actually pretty good I thought error from Zion Suzuki but you know still a great keeper so yeah exactly you won't get many of those from him right we have gone extremely long in the Premier League so let's let's go elsewhere Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet.

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50:50Musa Okwonga: have to work the classica let's do it bayon munich 2 barista dortmund 2 a game full of intrigue and as you said the top i think or maybe before we started recording it's nice to have a classica that is has not decided the league early in the year and i thought by barista dortmund's um performance in this game was summed up by maybe the most fabulous silver goal you will ever see which is the triumph of persistence and then technique and it was funny because fabio silva the late equalizer to make it to all and he'd like you saw it was almost like watching someone drafting you know those um those novelists where not every novelist is like this where each draft gets closer and closer so the first one is kind of like just an impression and like a sketch and then you see him like tidying up his finishing so by the time he actually scores the winner he's locked in and the first touch to turn on this is what makes this goal the late equaliser and credit to them because they really hung tough against Bayern who if Kane doesn't hit the bar at 1-0 up they could have really like not run away with it but they could have booked clear water I mean 2-0 at that point I don't think Bayern I don't think Dortmund get back into this I want to have just a quick word of commiseration for Joe Bellingham who scored the opener in the Classica but he gets pulled back for an offside.

52:12Musa Okwonga: I mean, I mean, Chukwemeka was crawling over the keepers over Urbic's head. It was such a funny foul. It was so funny because he's trying to get out of the way but by trying to get out of the way he essentially jumps into Urbic while being in an offside position. When I saw the reply I was like, yeah, they're not giving him that. But he was really good, Joe Bellingham. And it was so nice to have them both scoring the Bellingham brothers on the same weekend. We'll talk about Jude's goal in a minute because Jude's performance. Anyway, let's go back. We'll talk about Jude in a minute. let's talk about this game let's do it I was really impressed with Dortmund I was I was especially coming from behind twice because that period where Bellingham's goal gets ruled out and then Bayern basically go and score right with a Connie Lima do you know what Connie Lima he's getting he's getting more and more mischievous Connie Lima he's the ultimate I'm leaving here with something Connie Lima well actually no it's funny what is that what is with like rampaging fullbacks to be honest it's quite it was quite Urian timber-coded that was very timber-coded there was someone's one described was it one of the Gallagher brothers described Gary Neville as busy he said it he meant it as like an insult such an accurate way to describe Gary Neville he's busy he's a busy man he's busy Connie Lima was busy in this game Connie Lima was always busy and that's why you know I think he's just we need to do a busy 11 We need to do a busy 11.

53:40He's like, yeah, he's extremely busy. Extremely busy.

53:46Musa Okwonga: It's a right back trait. It's a full back trait. They're busy people. They can't help themselves. When he scored that follow up finish, I'm like, you can't help yourself? You couldn't help yourself? Oh, you got given a defensive assignment, but you had to burst forward and you had to follow up with that finish. You just couldn't. Connie Lima, you know, is the kind of person that if you had, if you were pitch side, I can imagine him running past just being like, he's like Paulie he's like Paulie in Sopranos but just like just like the whole week as he goes fast was he just laughing was he cackling running down the week it is spooky season mate you know maybe that's why they're cackling I was you know he reminds me of so I was at a friend's place for Halloween the other night yeah did you dress up oh my goodness the sweets I got so one of the did you go trick or treating oh my god can you imagine So we were hanging out with the kids.

54:39Musa Okwonga: So we were hanging out and the kids were coming back. So we went out to hang out with the parents and the kids were coming back in. And one of their daughters, right, she goes around the neighbourhood. This is like sort of down in Rudolf, like south of Berlin. She goes out twice, twice. And the first time she comes back, she has an absolute like all-time haul, an all-timer. And the second time she goes out, she goes back to like drop off on her mates' parents at the station. They walk back together. And she just, she spins the block, where she comes back one last time. Does she go in another outfit?

55:08Musa Okwonga: She goes in another round. Get this. No way. It's the most Connie Lyman thing ever. And this is what I imagine he must have been like this as a kid. He goes around like this angelic face, like smiley, like, oh, look, like a little ruffian. But this mix between like, like this mischievous angel type energy, right? And she goes out, dude, apparently these, the, the Omas and the Opas, the grandparents, which they took one look at her and they just emptied buckets of sweets. And she came back. She came back with a sweet surplus. everyone basically left with like a bounty because it was like she can't eat all these.

55:39You were like, oh, you can't eat all these.

55:44You can't eat all these.

55:45Musa Okwonga: There was a jar in my line of sight right now. It's like stuffed with Haribo. And I just imagine like Connie Lima being the ultimate trick-or-treat kid. Just like, oh, like Connie, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just like this angelic face. And the German grandparents just like, there you go, take it all. So anyway, that was my Halloween evening. but this game I think great great great confidence builder for Borussia Dortmund a fix they've struggled in loved the equaliser Chukwemeka a player that I've always loved and I just think look I said this before when a club is in chaos they lose a gem every now and again and Chukwemeka leaving I think was it Villo in the turnover I think Emery had just got there and he was already out the door and he left Chelsea in chaos and I think he's found a place where he's happy.

56:33Musa Okwonga: There were some question marks about his inclusion as a starter, but I think he answered all of those. The way that he bursts forward, I mean, that's going to be so good for his confidence, providing that assist to Gerasi, who, and I've said this many a time, the only number nine I'd want to see, and I don't want, I don't want Dortmund, I don't want Dortmund to sell Gerasi. I'm just saying he's the only number nine that I would be excited to see playing with the other forwards at Barcelona, because I think that he has, he's the one of the few nines in the world that has the skill set to combine with complete fluidity, leads a line, drops off, and the finish is just so good.

57:08Musa Okwonga: Like, it's one of those, you know, every so often, like, you know, when we're doing writers' house, you might send Ian, like, look at that striker's goal. This is one of those ones I think I'll be like, look at this, look at the first touch here and look at the immediacy of the finish. I think both of them. Both of them are just, absolutely. Dolman Duran, like a pretty decent run at the Allianz, especially after they went on that run that just felt like just horrific yeah yeah horrifying they've only lost one of the last four at the Allianz in the league it's really good you know there's a thing as well there's something about you know like in the same way that Arsenal got over the hill by beating Liverpool Anfield what that would do for what that does for Arsenal we don't know yet but I will say this like Solis looked fantastic actually in patches in that game and I think it's just knowing you've been part of a performance like that it can it can help you kick on I'm intrigued slash excited to see how Dortmund kick on from here.

58:03Musa Okwonga: Because that is a fixture they go into and they don't normally come out of. Even the late equaliser, that's something that doesn't normally happen for Dortmund, actually. No. I have to admit, when Uppamacano scored the goal, I just thought, oh, that's it. I was really, really impressed by how they came back into this. Yeah, I agree. Loads of other games we're going to talk about quickly. Super Classico. Wow. Oh my goodness. Bocca beat River in the Super Classico. River plate. were down to nine. They were down to ten very early on. Quarta got sent off after ten minutes. Then Montiel got sent off.

58:36Musa Okwonga: May I say something about this fixture? It's one of the few fixtures in football where you look at it and think, is this game actually being played in a volcano? It would explain so much if they were actually running on lava because they come into this game so hot. What did someone say? Like, if Paredes is the voice of reason, then... Yeah. You're in. these games are so loaded. Even look at the pass completion, right? So Bocca complete 440 passes. Rear plate complete 144. In a team like, in a game like that, you're like, it's, it's spoiling. River plate knew the only way through it was to spoil.

59:17Musa Okwonga: Yeah. I mean, when you're down to 10 away at Bocca, at the Bombonera, you just. And 10 so early as well. Yeah. After 10 minutes. And it was a deserved red, actually. A deserved red. Like it was true. were like Montiel like Montiel man that is going to be one of those things that I think he's going to look back at at some point and be like what was I doing no I think he's going to look back and reflect with pride actually do you think he's going to be one of those things where he's in his 70s he's going to get that tape out of family occasions like look watch should we watch the tape from when I got sent off against Bocca and didn't leave the field I will be amazed if I see a more existential Red All season do you know what's my favourite though Raphael Borre afterwards getting booked for dissent brackets, not on pitch.

1:00:02Musa Okwonga: Who was the one? Who was the player that got sent off? The unused sub who got sent off. I can't remember that in the Champions League. Oh, that needs to be one of those. You know, the kids are doing the memes about my dream is to be me and my mate to be sat on the bench because we were out in the club during a relegation battle. That would be it. We're waiting for the one being like, I want to be sent off as an unused sub. I have a hot take. I think Montiel was trying to complete the set, right? Score the winning penalty in the World Cup final, right? It's a side quest. I get sent off in a Super Classico.

1:00:35Musa Okwonga: I just think he wants the moments. You know, like Ismail Assar has like... You're saying he's stat padding. Yes. No, it's worse. It's the opposite of stat padding. It's like he's completing... It's like the Infinity Stones. It's a quest. Winning penalty in the World Cup final, sent off in a Super Classico. I mean, he's done it all. I mean he's really this is for the after dinner circuit he is man he's collecting anecdotes at this point yeah I mean really like what a track record but him getting sent off and him like whirling his finger to the crowd he's scorted off by police and then he was kind of like hiding in the tunnel he didn't even fully go down the tunnel he should still be hiding how do you get a man out of a stadium like that how do you in the kit like when Mourinho had to when Mourinho was smuggled in in the kit box or whatever it was.

1:01:24Yeah, he just had a game out of there. Still looking for him, yeah. Let's go to another derby. We're going to go to La Liga. We're going to go to San Mamez. What a game. Athletic Club almost took the lead after a matter of seconds, it felt like. They probably should have scored. Beating Real Sociedad 2-1 in the derby. And it was a good game. Again, with two great coaches, Edin Terzic and Pellegrino Matarazzo, who are good pals I think they had a friendly in the international break and it was the first time they'd met each other since being at their current clubs so it was the first time they'd met since the Bundesliga days and you could tell that there was real respect there and this is what makes the Bass Derby so special is that there is a respect between the two clubs but good game

1:02:14Musa Okwonga: It's a cracking game and I look I just Nico Williams as a ceiling there's an intensity to which he raises that team that almost no other... You know, it's like, and this is a high praise, I can hit it. You know the way that like Lamin-Yemal elevates Barcelona? The way that when Nico Williams is on, Athletic Club are like almost untouchable. When they went on that like Copa del Rey run and they were just cooking teams when the Williams brothers were just going off. Williams brothers, Williams sisters, you know, great dynasties. When those two go off and just like tireless running Inaki with a really nice finish could have put a bit more sauce on the chip on the lob but you know it's still good enough for purposes when they're flying it's something else and Unai Simone two of those saves that he pulled off were just out of this world the one in the first half that he deflects over the bar and the second one that he gets round tips around the post I mean there are statement fixtures and there are statement saves but yeah Unai Simone brilliant Ayah Tharbal again your man coming off the back of the Ballon d 'Or disappointment.

1:03:23Musa Okwonga: I'm not even sure he's disappointed by it. He looked really good in patches. Yeah, just a great game of football. Great game of football. Elsewhere. Well, before we go elsewhere, can I just literally and figuratively flag something from this game? Because it was a really lovely moment before the game where Jose Angel Arriba and Onixio Cortabarria, former captains of both clubs, walked out carrying the Icarina 50 years after they did so for the first time in a derby. Oh, wow. So it was 1976 where they carried the Basque flag on December 1976. Obviously, the Basque flag and language was banned while Franco was in power.

1:04:03So it was a real act of defiance when they did that. And it was just really cool seeing those two captains lead the teams out with the flag 50 years after they did it for the first time. And I think that's one of the reasons why the Basque derby, I think, holds such a special type of rivalry and there's like a solidarity but a rivalry. I was saying to you wasn't I was saying like you look how

1:04:28Musa Okwonga: intense that game is and how it didn't boil over and how actually how good those derbies tend to be generally speaking those derbies are like if I look at Basque derbies in the context of they're entertaining right? They play with passion and also freedom whereas other derbies where let's say like Boca River is like more of a class rivalry or historically a class rivalry and there is just there's more needle and I would say just animosity whereas these derbies it's like did we compete fairly it's almost like that's what you want to see did we compete fairly was there high energy was there some good football and at the end people just kind of go home and it's fine yeah both teams want to win but also you see like for example there was a Real Saucy that fan just sat in with the Athletic Club fans there's like a different thing there it reminds me a little bit actually to Bayern Dortmund Bayern Dortmund you will see Dortmund fans like I remember going to the Allianz a few years ago and there was a few rows in front of me there was just one Dortmund fan sat in with the Bayern fans whereas for example if you had one Spurs fan in the Arsenal bit or one Arsenal fan in the Spurs bit or Liverpool Manchester United it would just kick off Yeah we're not so good at that but I think that's because of there's a big historical context there to it right which is just like Can I say no no no no you're right the historical context and I'm sorry to jump in but it reminded me talking about like fans collectively fans coming together in moments that are quite touching I wanted to talk about the Toledo train crash because there was some some beautiful pre-match honouring and remembrance of the victims I thought that was really it's so powerful particularly with I mean and that's that's been a couple of times this year already they've had that in Spain so horrible there but yeah in relation to the football just quickly jumping around you mentioned we mentioned Barca and Real Madrid at the top big wins for them Yeah, yeah.

1:06:19Musa Okwonga: Real against Rathin Santander, really impressive because they're really strong at home. And Real were basically the three up in what? Three up in basically half an hour. And looked brilliant. Brandi Amande with another absolute banger. That man is just basically, the application for the full-time role on that left flank continues. It just looks so well-balanced. Mbappe, again, brilliant. Some of his hold-up play was excellent. And Bellingham, Bellingham walked through for his goal. Bellingham's goal was so good. We didn't really shout out the Morgan Rodgers walking through the Manchester United defence either.

1:06:57Musa Okwonga: And this is No Knock and Rodgers, obviously, a fantastic player and someone who, a gem that Chelsea have got there. an absolute gem and what an acquisition he was. And now I think people are seeing why they clambered so hard for a signature. I still think Arsenal missed the trick there because I think he would have been superb to them. Stop it. It's too soon. Just saying, but saying in the context of what a gem of a player Rodgers is, but Bellingham just, he eased and his defensive contributions. I was talking in the chat about this and I know I drew the De Stefano comparison and people might have laughed or wrought their eyes and that's fine.

1:07:28Musa Okwonga: it's just that his complete skill set what he's delivering week after week I mean I have this sort of it's like a running it's a meme with me really where he will score and assist but I will highlight the defensive contribution because it's incredible to me that somebody can get through that much defensive work and still initiate the attack Look England are in an era when you have two of arguably the most complete midfielders they've ever had at that level genuinely and I know that a lot of people say well hang on a minute whoa whoa whoa Lampard, Gerrard these kind of players. Like, I get it. And I'm not saying, but I mean, in terms of at the same time at that kind of level.

1:08:04Musa Okwonga: Do you know, England are actually, there's an argument they're unlucky because they are facing, unfortunately, a historically great Spain team. This Spain team is historically great, right? And there are World Cup winners that have not been historically great. Where you've looked at them and they're like, you know, they're very, very good. They're not like lights out. You're not going to remember them 50 years from now. Whereas this Spain team, the ability to manage games will go down as... one of the great tournament teams, right? And I think England are just unfortunate. They won't get the credit.

1:08:32Musa Okwonga: And what they're producing with that midfield, with those, I mean, right, what Declan Rice did at Anfield and what Bellingham does is doing every week. Yeah. You can't, I can't, I currently, I currently cannot praise it enough. No, this podcast could easily be 20 minutes talking about Drew Bellingham every week about how good he is. Yeah, it's unreal. And it wouldn't be enough actually probably to do it justice because he is just that good. just a quick shout for jose mourinho who i genuinely thought when i switched on this game had come dressed as my dearly departed granddad just a thing that my granddad used to rock all the time that jacket but undone on like right until the bottom like so there's a bit yes i was like what is that like how is he doing this i was just like holy shit like actually made me kind of go jose has come dressed as my granddad i think he's trying to embody the different phases of man stages of man i think he's literally deliberately trying to be an archetype now i think i've worked it out i think there's actually this is an art project do you know what i think's happening what's that i think he doesn't expect to last that long at real madrid so what he's trying to do is is get as many different looks in as possible so that when the photos come back it looks like he was there for a bigger period of time that's what i think i will say this i will gladly say this he is doing so much better in that job.

1:09:56He's doing a lot better than I thought he would be. He's doing so much

1:09:58Musa Okwonga: than I expected and I will always give credit where it's due. They just look like a team, Real Madrid. Yeah, they do. Yeah. And again, Santander had a really good home record before Madrid turned up there and they just turned them over. And this is, look, you look at this starting XI with the exception of Trent coming for Valverde but he had a good game and I think maybe him and Valverde can just alternate because it's, you know, good squad depth. but this is really as close as possible to their starting 11 it's something else right quickly Barcelona against Deportivo Alaves they just absolutely cooked them how much did they hate conceding that goal oh yes oh my god but this is like the duality of man so like Rodri completes a hundred and what thirty passes but then gives away like what makes the error leading to the goal and this I think this is Barcelona I think I think this is Barcelona yeah But again, brilliant against Deportivo Alaves, Laminio Mar, superb, Rafinha.

1:10:57Musa Okwonga: All the usual suspects. Lopez too, just outstanding. Loved it. Atleti beating Levante 2-0 away, which means that they are still second. So the top three, Barcelona, Atleti two points behind them. Real Madrid three points behind Barcelona. Charles Abetis who beat Malaga. and because of Real Sociedad's defeat, that now means that they've opened a four-point gap on Real Sociedad in fourth. Right, we haven't even done the Derby della Madalina yet, so let's quickly jump to Italy and do that because Milan again winning the Derby. They've got a really good record in the Derby. I think it's something like, is it their last, I think they're unbeaten in their last nine?

1:11:39Musa Okwonga: For Amarim specifically, this is so impressive. It is. Coming off that defeat against Bologna last week, which was it was a banana skin let's be real this was so so impressive from Milan it is nine by the way nine in all competitions and friendlies I think it's well one friendly so last eight in competitive derbies Milan are unbeaten the key to this was getting off to the fast start Pulisic Hedder feels quite rare that yeah Pulisic Hedder and I think I mean Marrera as well is the star of the show here he was absolutely brilliant I think maybe because Inter are known for their sort of like slow starts and like great comebacks I don't know if there was an instruction from Amorim he's a smart enough coach he might have done this an instruction to get out in that early lead and really hit them hard early because there was a note there was a really marked intensity to them the the set piece for Rabiot's goal is just unbelievable the short corner that he flicks into the far post and then Moreira with a great, great free kick himself and they just gave in to too much of a deficit to come back from.

1:12:48Musa Okwonga: Mike Mignon, Money Mike was brilliant and just a great smash and grab victory for Milan. Like, just high intensity throughout. And Amorim at the end, his demeanour was really interesting. He wasn't like giving it the big one. But they were superb in this game. They were absolutely brilliant and this was the level. Modric again, Modric masterclass. Yeah, still doing it, man. So 41, ridiculous. Wild. Lazio three points just clear at the top after their 2-1 win against Cagliari they're looking really good they are and they've got Napoli next week which is going to be interesting right Gattuso returning to a former club but he's done such a good job so far they're the only unbeaten team in the league along with Roma who also won on the weekend they beat Udinese 5-2 we mentioned Juve Juve beating Napoli 2-0 not a great game but two great goals and Como beat Venezia 1-0 Venezia is still bottom of the league they've only won one of their 10 games they've lost the other 9 God they're really going through are they yeah is there anything else you want to oh do you want to do a quick shout for the WSL Arsenal drew again which is yeah but the real I think the best game I think was the London City Lionesses yeah showpiece game yeah losing 2-1 to Manchester City and they London City Lionesses were so much better in the first half, it should have been 1-0 or 2-0.

1:14:12Musa Okwonga: Maybe even 2-0. But City do what City do. Barney Shaw and Lohan Hemp get it done. I mean, this is really a victory for muscle memory, actually. Like, and it's not that the Lionesses played with their food, right? It wasn't that. It was more like, you really have to seize the occasion, actually, because they gave City so many looks and Evanderdonk could have put them ahead. And again, They should have had like at least two. They get it back to 1-0. And then City had the Succupines. They've just got the institutional memory in that team, actually. And they should have put them away. It's still very encouraging though for Lionesses who are, they're kind of, we talked about Iriola's Liverpool being in the process of building and they're establishing chemistry.

1:14:58Musa Okwonga: Mary Earps came in really good immediately for them. And the speed at which the Lionesses are getting it together, this may be just a season too soon for them to really mount that title challenge. Three Champions League spots as well. The third one's the qualifier. Now, I mean, I'm not even sure if they'll be able to go in it because of Michel Kang also owning Lyon. If they won this game, they would have gone level on points with Man City. They're a major player. That's for sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, especially with Arsenal's just weird form. Scored eight, conceded nine. Only two wins after their first eight.

1:15:28They're already 12 points behind Chelsea. Their title challenge is done. Strange, strange season. And it's really weird. Yeah. They drew one all with Villa on the weekend. but yeah man right we've gone quite long today so should we get out of it and leave everyone to it Thursday I suppose we'll do Champions League because it's Champions League back this week we hope everyone's staying safe and well wherever you are if you are listening to us on the free feed please consider becoming a Stadio member on Patreon go to patreon.com forward slash Stadio sign as a podcast member or a social club member we massively appreciate the support and you get every single episode ad free in full plus other perks and members we'll be back with you on Thursday where you get the Champions League episode and until then don't forget to check the Stadio Archers players on Spotify and playing out on this one the instrumental of Ocean to Ocean by Model 500 rest in peace Juan Atkins Detroit legend anything you would like to add Musa Okwonga?

1:16:23Musa Okwonga: nothing further alright everyone much love have a great week back with you on Thursday see you then

1:16:35Thank you.

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