More Old Trafford drama

0:00Ryan Hunn: Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini.

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1:58Musa Okwonga: Hello and welcome back to the Stadio Podcast. I'm Misukwanga. I'm Ryan Hun. Ryan, how are you doing? Doing all right, thanks, man. How are you doing? A lot better than I would have been if there had not been six minutes of injury time. I'll tell you that much. Oh my God.

2:14Ryan Hunn: Do you know what I thought of afterwards? Mateus Cunha did a post-match interview and he just said, I'm so tired. Like, I'm just so tired. That is hilarious. And I just thought, ain't we all, Matthias? Ain't we all?

2:26Musa Okwonga: We'll get to this, but they're not a stereotypical team in trouble. No, they're not at all. They're not at all.

2:32Ryan Hunn: They're almost a bit too interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I am not a Manchester United fan. And I am tired. Yeah. Welcome to our world. Anyway. Anyway. We hope everyone's staying safe and well wherever you are. A very, very quick bit of admin. If you want to go and get tickets for our South Bank show in January, the next one's in January, January 23rd. Link is in the description. Go and get them. And also, patreon.com forward slash stadio if you want to sign up to get every single episode ad-free in full. We'd love to have you. Patreon.com forward slash stadio. Sign up as a podcast member if you just want the podcasts or if you want the podcast plus the stadio social club discord and a bit more stuff.

3:11Ryan Hunn: Sign up as a social club member. And that is all the admin, I think. So today, we were thinking about how we wanted to frame this a little bit. And I think that there are a few things this season that have felt a little bit of a surprise. So I think we're going to use that as a bit of a theme to talk about a couple of things. We're going to talk about Manchester United and Villa, but we are also going to shout Bournemouth. And we're also going to talk about Real Madrid because where they are now compared to where

3:40Musa Okwonga: they were maybe after the derby is a massive surprise. Oh, to me, it's a huge surprise. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, yeah.

3:47Ryan Hunn: And it was quite a big weekend in La Liga with Atleti Barsa. So we'll talk about that a little bit as well. And that will probably do us for today. So let's get into it. Let's do it. Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

4:22Ryan Hunn: Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's$2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it. So you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

5:05Musa Okwonga: But there is only one place to begin, Musa. Well, it's not at Old Trafford, but... It could be. It could be, it could be. I think it should be because frankly I've never seen a game of football like this I've never seen a game of football like we saw Old Trafford actually

5:22Ryan Hunn: I feel like we have I feel like we saw one a few days before to be honest it's the comeback twice from two goals down we're actually going to shout the Osaka derby first one of the season Serrazo Osaka beating Gamba 3-2 away any celebrations to police? well this is the thing Right? So, unfortunately, the camera cut away from Jackson Irvine when Serrazo got their second. But there was not only some cupping of the ears towards the home fans. No way. There was also some shushing from the substitutes. I was like, where is Jacko?

5:59Musa Okwonga: Be your own people. Be your own people.

6:03Ryan Hunn: Where's Detective Chief Inspector Jackson Irvine when you need him on the scene? Woo-woo. Big week for Jackson. He became a dad. shouts to him and Jamila his wife they had a baby boy last week congratulations to them what a week wonderful but no of course we're going to start at Old Trafford because Manchester United 4 Aston Villa 4 is frankly a ridiculous scoreline and a ridiculous rhythm to the game if you think about it

6:29Musa Okwonga: yeah because Manchester United were really good for stretches of it like really good Michael Carrick alright well no it was so weird it was no no point being I'm just kidding. The wildest outcome, so Villa go 2-0 up and Manchester United, it was so early in the game that then you have time to play badly. Although there's a weird thing about the opening goal. The opening goal is like a microcosm of Manchester United right now where it's like, everyone is like half a second late to a challenge. Then it ends up with Diogo Dallo who is like a right-footed left-back playing where he shouldn't be playing and can't get across to it because the ball's on his wrong side.

7:10Musa Okwonga: And then you have Lomans who is an elite goalkeeper, but who is looking unfortunately like late era De Gea, where there are so many shots on target. It's like a load bearing. It's like a roof that's like not meant to bear load. That is Lomans at this moment in terms of like the fragility of that defense. and he just looks, he just doesn't look confident and this is a brilliant goalkeeper and Manchester United are slowly ruining him. And I don't mean the captain or the squad or I mean the club and the recruitment because what's in front of him, that front line, if you look at the four defenders in front of him, arguably three out of four don't start in those positions regularly for another Premier League team, arguably.

7:53Musa Okwonga: And that is not even on those players. It's like, Like, Dallo is playing left back because Luke Shaw is out. Like, he's sacrificing himself. It's like when Castamere played centre-back at Crystal Palace, who got destroyed 4-0, and everyone rocketed him afterwards. I was like, he shouldn't even be playing there. He could refuse, but he loves playing there so much, he will take it. And he took the hit and moved on. And Diogo Dallo has been absolutely screwed over because this is a player, and I said this before, when he left Porto, he was rated as arguably the best young right back in Europe. That was the scouting report.

8:27Musa Okwonga: And maybe that was unfair, but if you look at him now and what he's developed into and how he's been developed, it's a failure. Like it's a failure of young players. I can't, and that was just the opening goal. Like, so anyway, you know, I had to go two goals down and they just, In four minutes. In four minutes. And at that point, I thought it was going to be six. And they played their way back into it. I think partly because Villa were like, okay, we're going to cook them. So I think Villa eased off, I think, to be fair. There's also that. I think Emery will be, we'll get onto this, but I think Emery will be absolutely fuming.

8:59Musa Okwonga: I got a shout to Kobi Manu because Kobi Manu was an absolute titan.

9:05Ryan Hunn: Right, do you know what? I was at the Roma game on Tuesday and a similar pattern played out. Roma scored two early goals. Manchester United need a penalty to get back into it really. And the only real positive that I felt from Manchester United, especially in the first half against Roma, was Kobi Manu. He was the only one who looked like He had the composure, put it this way, I think I mentioned it on Thursday's show, that the difference, the contrast between the two teams in terms of, let's say, how clearly well drilled they were in terms of what to do was quite evident. it was quite obvious especially when you could see the whole pitch as soon as Roma got the ball as soon as the defenders got the ball their attackers were moving into kind of and you could tell the whole team just moved into a pattern they played through United's midfield super super easy but Kobe Kobe mainly was the only one I felt in that game who really looked like he had a real like real composure patience knew what was going on and I think this was the same thing in this game.

10:14Ryan Hunn: You know, I just think that it's wild to me and we talked about this before that it was a little bit better under Amarin before he left than people maybe give him credit for. But the Kobe Mani thing was just so big. It's so bizarre. It's so, so wild to me still.

10:27Musa Okwonga: Especially because the kind of, if you look at the openness of the football Amarin was trying to play and the spaces which Mani was supposed to occupy. I mean, look, again, the spaces he occupied here against Villa and the kind of formation that Mani that Amarin put him in, he was thriving. I mean, look, I was just looking across the numbers now as you were speaking. The eye test is matched by the numbers, what he produced. Five tackles, two interceptions, eight ball recoveries. He was always moving. He was always moving. And for a guy who's not particularly quick, right, or muscular, the amount of space he covers, it's a little bit like Pedri.

11:04Musa Okwonga: Pedri's slightly different as a profile, but it wasn't that far off. In terms of the vital nature of what he did, in terms of the vital contribution, I compare it to Pedru's performance against Atletico Madrid, like just covering all this room that he had no right to be. And he had to be that good because, frankly, this game could have absolutely tumbled away from United. And the wild thing is they pull themselves back into it and then they have to do it all over again in the second half. And this is the thing. It's very rarely you can see a team where the psychological aspect is one of the major problems.

11:39Musa Okwonga: But to see a player like Leni Jorreau, who was chased by every major club, making a rushed clearance against, I think, well, it's powered onto his own bye-bye Lomans, right? To see Lenny Oro doing that, and again, this is not me going after these players at all. It's just, at a club like Real Madrid, he would have Militao mentoring him, right? You'd have a player who was, as long as they were healthy, you'd have Alaba in the crop when he got there. Or Rudiger. Or Rudiger. You'd have all of those players, like senior players. And who is like mentoring Lenny Oro? like who where is the the professional path forward because harry mcguire is struggling a lot with his own form so he's not in a position to do that he just can't you know it's not even a knock on mcguire either it's this team is so strange because it feels like watch man's united uh at the weekend it felt like it felt like i'd won the midterms and lost the midterms in the same in the same 90 minutes i mean you kind of did yeah like it's it's a team that's so interesting because it's like, it's like, it's half really quite a good team.

12:43Musa Okwonga: Like for example, I think that Brian Mbumo would be in the squad. You know, those great Manchester United teams, right? I think Brian Mbumo would make it into one of those great squads. He'd be in a squad. As a squad player. Like he would be a player that would come off the bench. He'd be like a Quentin Fortune or Luis Saha. Like he was that good. Like in terms of what I think he can bring to a team that is like operating at an elite level. And because also he just never gives up. He's one of my favourite United players because there's a fearlessness there. And there are other players who just, I mean, when the recruitment is being put together and the squad's being composed, you're like, this is not a load-bearing squad by any stretch.

13:21Musa Okwonga: And it's so weird because it feels like half and half. I can't remember a team like it at this level of football. It's so strange. It's so strange.

13:30Ryan Hunn: It is weird because I think that it's such a confusing team because Villa are, they're a work in progress and they've started slower to the season. but this is a team in a rebuild but it's also a team that is under a manager who has been there for a long time who has been heavily linked with Manchester United and who is about to sign a new contract at Aston Villa and I think that is the best move for Villa and the best move for Unai Emery if you look at him I think apart from Valencia this is the I'm not sure if he's overtaken the amount of time he was in charge of Valencia yet but he's either almost there or he's just gone past it so it's the longest stint that he's had at a football club and if you look at what happened to Emery post Sevilla finding a home like this where he could really

14:15Musa Okwonga: build something

14:16Ryan Hunn: build yeah build something have a lot more power in terms of who comes in oversee a rebuild have the full full faith of the board and not really be under pressure especially when they start the season the last two seasons how they have right I think that's really important but in theory drawing a game at home to Villa shouldn't really be a big deal for Manchester United however it's the pattern of it that is the really concerning thing right because this just isn't sustainable anymore no no no and it's not been sustainable for a while it's almost as if this team isn't really feeding off tactics or systems or patterns it needs the emotion and the moments to fire them into action yeah and that's just not you cannot do that you can't you can't and And Kunya's comments afterwards where he even alluded to that just being like, I don't know why we can't do it until we're about two goals down.

15:15Ryan Hunn: It's because you don't have a plan. But the thing is that thing there, that kind of lack of a stable nucleus is the knock-on effect for everyone else's deterioration in form or underperformance, right? the fact that there isn't really a solid back four in front of Lomans has made him a little more anxious and I think especially after that mistake in the World Cup that I think that there's a bit of a hangover from that when the back four is anxious it's the two feed each other right the back four needs to instill confidence in the goalkeeper but the goalkeeper also has to instill confidence in the back four and when both are stable it becomes greater than the sum of its parts but when they're both anxious or lacking in confidence it's the same but the other way and that feeds its way through the team because if you know that you're not secure and you can go behind at any time it means that the moments that you have in attacking situations have to count double almost because you don't know how crucial they are Manchester United cannot keep clean sheets so every time for example Amadiyalo has a chance where he doesn't square it to Bruno Fernandes and Bruno you can see Bruno is stressed he's a pretty animated guy anyway I cannot remember seeing him quite as stressed on a sustained basis as much as he has this season

16:38Musa Okwonga: because this is a relegation bound team I think the schedule's taking its toll on them

16:43Ryan Hunn: again as well I just think that there was a little bit of a reality check going back into the Champions League and losing their midweeks especially after how few games they played last season it's all of that is just triggering this anxiety through through the team and through the crowd understandably but but saying that and this isn't going after the fans at all because there are few stadiums that sound like old trafford when it's on this is kind of loud when the comeback is on yeah well there's another moment that said that you know the fans consensus is is to be had there are a few places like it but it's just not sustainable on a long-term basis and the thing is now we kind of touched on this a little bit a couple of weeks ago I think after the Como game maybe it was after the Bournemouth game actually it was in the midweek we did a Patreon episode about it but picking the first thing to do or the first thing that needs to be fixed is almost impossible now especially when you have an ownership structure there who are just so removed from having seemingly having a clear idea about what they need in the clear vision for the club

17:53Musa Okwonga: One of the Glazers recently made a comment at a conference. I think it was an investment conference and he said, on-pitch performance doesn't affect the commercial part. And I thought for that to come out of an owner's mouth, I mean, it's an absolute detachment from any kind of unfilled reality. And it's someone that doesn't really care. doesn't really care. And that's clear. So when you look at that lack of care, it's a lack of oversight. So it then means that the executive team being employed don't feel the scrutiny from above, right? So they're managing horizontally and downwards. And you end up in a situation where, you know, we've mentioned Barada and Cox before, these people are just not, they don't have a track record of excellence in the jobs that they are currently in, they don't have that.

18:42Musa Okwonga: They don't. Like, for Barada, it's new, and for Wilcox, this specific role, again, the track record is not a world-class one. It just isn't. And when you look at Manchester United's squad, it absolutely looks like one that's been assembled by seven different hierarchies.

18:59Ryan Hunn: It's also one who should in theory be doing a lot better than it is, though. They're in the relegation zone.

19:04Musa Okwonga: There is also that. So, again, it's been assembled by all those different people, and Michael Carrick is he is a superb assistant coach to a world-class manager. I fully believe that if Michael Carrick was in as a number two and overseeing midfield work primarily, but also some other organizational work alongside a world-class manager, then I think this is a very different picture very quickly. And I think Manchester United end up with this current squad, I think may end up low mid table. Like low mid-table, like I think 11th, 12th, because I think there's just too much above them and they can't really control midfields with the current configuration.

19:45Musa Okwonga: But I think it's good enough. And I think actually a world-class coach would fix the midfield, but would struggle to fix the centre defence and the full-back positions. Because at the moment, Manchester United, when you watch them, you know they're not going to hurt you really on the flanks from the full-back positions. You know that's not going to happen. And so you can actually attack them at your leisure through those areas. so again like multiple issues with that team and they're primarily structural but yeah uh a great listen it was really enjoyable i do feel a little bit for the fans who left early the home fans i'm not judging them for that because i think it's important it's important to show the protest but it was fascinating because even though old trafford had thinned out a bit by the end it was still really loud it was still really loud for the comeback which i was impressed by

20:33Ryan Hunn: there'll be another one of course there will that's the thing right there'll be another one so I mean I think that the takeaway from this is that I didn't necessarily think Manchester United were going to win the league or anything I'm surprised that it's this disjointed or this all over the place and I'm very surprised that we're going into the second international break and the men's international break in November with Manchester United in the relegation zone because I thought we'd I thought we'd gone through the banter

20:58Musa Okwonga: I'm not going to name names but I saw Manchester United fans in the chat like developing coping strategies. And it's really bad when you're watching your own team and you're developing coping strategies. Oh, I'm not going to pay full attention to it. I'll come back in a bit. We're not having to tune out.

21:12Ryan Hunn: But this is the thing. You could do that with nil-nils or one-ones. You can't be doing that with four orls against Villa. It's true. It's true. It's true. Let's flip this to a Villa point of view quickly just while we're here. Unai Emery must be

21:24Musa Okwonga: absolutely livid with this. And I'm pretty sure that Unai Emery on the way to Trafford was like, just don't get caught up in their chaos. They're going through it. United don't get good on the chaos. They're going through a toxic situation. Don't get caught up in it and we'll be just fine. And then the dressing room afterwards, it's like, what did I tell you? But yeah, Emery, when a game goes out of a coach's control, some countries like it. And I mentioned this before with Arteta and Pep. They used to love it because it gave them a problem to fix. Emery's not in that place, right? He's like, look, you know what?

21:54Musa Okwonga: Like we had a slow start to the season and now the idea is to start motoring. This is a major hiccup for us. Because we're trying to get a sense of momentum and a sense that we can pull this together. I think that to be critical of Villa at any particular point, I think at 4-2, your inability to close out the game in the central areas, that is inexcusable. It's not even about the late equaliser, right? That you can kind of, those things happen. It's the ZXA. It's allowing him the space on the penalty spot to do what he does. That I think was the issue. The fact that Dahlgren gets the equaliser is so funny because he came on looking ready I don't know has he always been hench I don't know but he came on he's his main character energy when he walked on good winner good player an equaliser that felt like a winner yeah totally totally

22:42Ryan Hunn: the sweet spot exactly the sweet spot of nobody's happy elsewhere in the Premier League somewhere else we need to shout out Forrest very quickly who scored their first league goals at home this season scored three of them against Man City were absolutely unbelievable against Man City and yeah a very very very important win for Forest and a massive statement win. Manchester City's third defeat in a row in the league. Again not sure how important that is from a Manchester City point of view. Massive for Forest because we also don't know what is going to happen with the games that Manchester City have played this season.

23:23Ryan Hunn: And I think if you were going to kind of throw in something that I'm surprised about with regards to Manchester City. I'm surprised that it's kind of

23:29Musa Okwonga: not more of a thing still. It makes the Premier League's job easier. People are just kind of... It's a bad run of form. Yeah. No one's talking about it. But if they were cooking everyone, it'd be worse, the Premier League. But now actually, because they slipped back into the chasing pack, six points behind Arsenal now, with some unimpressive performances, it's not just they've lost, they've been unimpressive. I mean, Nottingham Forest absolutely cooked them. I don't think they've been massively impressive at all this season though. You said this though, against teams that are better organised that have a clearer plan they've really, really struggled.

24:05Ryan Hunn: It was only really against Liverpool when Liverpool went down to 10 that they really turned it on against Liverpool and looked way better but that was a Liverpool that was almost like a threadbare Liverpool team as well.

24:14Musa Okwonga: I mean Brighton even though they were up against it after the first 15 minutes of the lead, Brighton handled them, managed them for the best part of two games.

24:23Ryan Hunn: They probably should have got I mean, they should have got at least a point probably from that game, but still.

24:26Musa Okwonga: They should, but Brighton, yeah, closed it out. And again, well, they're just the better side, to be honest, at the moment. Yeah. Well, should we shout out Brighton very quickly? Can I? I want to talk about one particular thing that I saw against when Brighton defeated Brentford. Brilliant, brilliant opening goal by Diego Gomez. The goal was so good. I actually took a screenshot of this. Four Brighton players spontaneously put their hands to their heads. Whoa. it's unbelievable like you literally from the top of the screen to the bottom you literally see them all raise their hands just like what the hell have we just seen this man only scores bangers this man makes a Fede Valverde scream at it like a tap-in because the thing about the way this man strikes the ball right Diego Gomez hitting this one you know like some players when they hit it there's like no back lift and it's almost like Leroy Sané did this Leroy Sané would rip it from distance and he wouldn't seem to hit it particularly hard.

25:23Musa Okwonga: Diego Gomez, and this is not a criticism of either of them, puts his entire body behind it. It's actually like watching a soul singer. It's like watching someone cover Aretha Franklin, right? And you can't, there's no half measures in that. And the soul singer is literally like, everything is coming out of the mouth. Everything. Like, years of history, the ancestors are in communion with them, all of that. Diego Gomez releasing a banger is like he strikes a football like it's his first striking session back from injury or something like he he really it's it's unbelievable this goal it's as good in its own way as the one that he scored from distance because he takes on the turn he comes like it's like he's coming it's like a catch and shoot in basketball when you're coming off a screen you know yeah yeah unreal so

26:14Ryan Hunn: So yeah, shout out to him. Actually, shout out for the two goals in the Ryan Cherky and the second Liam DeLapp goal in the Forest game.

26:21Musa Okwonga: The Cherky goal is out of this. Like when the Cherky goal is so good that when Cels dives for it, you almost see the resignation in the dive. You're like, I've got to do this, otherwise I'll get fined. But it's like Cherky hits it. It's one of those ones where those amazing strikes where they hit it and it's off the ground. like it rises like 10 feet in a split second it's high immediately it's a fighter jet take off yeah exactly the ones with the vertical take off on the charts yeah but yeah unbelievable goal and yeah shout out to De Laat because that one too some of his hold up play was just

26:59Ryan Hunn: quick shout out to Liverpool who got their third win in the last four away at Palace it looks like Piers Sarge I'm not sure if he's still going to be in the job by the time you hear this some rumours that Thomas Frank might be

27:12Musa Okwonga: heading to Palace. Not a bad shout there. We'll say on this, Florian Witts, I know it was Palace, but Witts looked great and Barker, that combination. And Isaac scoring again.

27:21Ryan Hunn: First game back after the international break is Liverpool-Manchester United at Anfield. This game is either going to be a Manchester United win or I've seen some people throwing around the 7-0s again. Which means that it's absolutely going to be nailed on to be 0-0 now.

27:34Musa Okwonga: I don't see the 7-0. I'll tell you why, because there's no player in the Liverpool squad who is currently the way that Mo Salah was moving.

27:41Ryan Hunn: I don't think it's going to be quite like that. Do you know what? Genuinely, it wouldn't surprise me if Manchester United went and won at Anfield because this is just what will happen. I think, yeah, because they're such an emotional team. Yeah, they're a team where

27:53Musa Okwonga: I think it's with the 7-0, we're dreading the 7-0. We're dreading a possibility because there were players in the Liverpool team who were absolutely locked in and had been for a while. Whereas I think Liverpool, they're still assembling the Death Star. Like, I will say this on Bradley Barco in particular, like that cutback for the Vietz goal is, like, you know, Barco playing at his like most efficient best. If that version we see, and we're seeing it actually, to be honest, we're seeing it like increasingly in the short space of time, like Barco is clicking. If we start seeing like a confident Vietz alongside that, I don't fancy that at all.

28:33Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I think that trio is going to be really good. Yeah. Yeah, quick shout for Sunderland who beat Chelsea 1-0. at home. That's a great win. Great win for them. Leeds beating Spurs 1-0. Love that for them. Arsenal beating Hull 1-0. That's a really good win. Yeah, I mean it kind of felt pretty it just felt like one of those games you get a few of these a season where Arsenal probably should have been outside. I'd be more worried as an Arsenal fan if Arsenal weren't creating anything. They just need to get a lot more efficient at their finishing.

28:58Musa Okwonga: Which can happen.

28:59Ryan Hunn: They can start running hot. But yeah, 100 % league record for Arsenal since the last international break. So, I mean very, very, very good indeed. Shouts to Everton beating commentary 3-1 on Friday night Everton kind of Everton are

29:14Musa Okwonga: level on points with Chelsea Cooking Their direction travel is upwards and Chelsea's is trending downwards at this point I think But also considering the summer that Everton had And considering that Jack Grealish

29:26Ryan Hunn: is not really a major factor in what they're doing It's kind of amazing that they're keeping pace with that top four I think genuinely And it also shows you though how just all over the place the Premier League's been already this season

29:37Musa Okwonga: if Moyes continues on this track like he's a honourable mention for like one of the coaches really getting it done yeah

29:46Ryan Hunn: yeah shout out for that commentary away kit which is just beautiful might be one of the best away kits in the league this season final shout out for the Premier League and I think one of the biggest things we've been surprised about so far this season is Bournemouth they won again on the weekend Evan Nelson became the first Bournemouth player to score in five successive Premier League games and the thing that is wild about Bournemouth is that we expected them to be good this season but we I think understandably were a little bit we love Marco Rosa, great manager how are they going to be after Andonio Riola point behind Everton three points behind the Champions League spots after that start to the season where they didn't win a game and again just another very very impressive win 2-1 away at Ipswich kind of had a late-ish comeback after the penalty.

30:39Ryan Hunn: But Bournemouth just looked they looked like a they looked like a team that goes into every game expecting to win now. Which I think just if you compare and contrast that to Manchester United to loop it back before we wrap up on the Premier League. How much confidence and security that gives a team throughout the entire team is

31:01Musa Okwonga: so evident with them. Well, I think it's also, it starts in the front with Bournemouth because they have Evan Nielsen doing a huge amount of defensive work. Like the defensive work he does at the top of the pitch is comparable to a very, like a pretty good or good defense midfielder. Right. And he does that alongside all his other duties. And he gets, you know, there are like some strikers who they'll score like 20 goals a season and they'll always have like seven tap-ins because their positioning is so good, their anticipation is so good. he is like an elite defensive striker and that's where it starts from we talked a lot about their ability to keep Bournemouth's ability to like keep hold of some key players in the summer which is absolutely huge I'm glad they held on to like Rennes for example because I think that he needed another year in this setup but Marco Rosa too like I was talking to you before the podcast about how he just fits Bournemouth and I think there's a big enough sample size now in the clubs that he's coached at to see which is a Marco Rosa Club and which one isn't.

32:02Musa Okwonga: And, you know, glad back absolutely that point and Marco Rosa Club. Bournemouth, great youth talent, great place to develop talent, where there's an executive board that knows it at once, that will recruit you. You know, sometimes you go to clubs where you've been headhunted for your specific skillset, as opposed to you've been headhunted because you are a name that people feel you should have. And I feel like Bournemouth very carefully were like, they had a philosophy right and you can see in contrast to other clubs in the Premier League that Bournemouth have a philosophy and he is the next iteration of it and it's great because although Iriola as brilliant a coach as he is and was at Bournemouth Rosa has his own style and they're responding to that I think really really well One of only three teams

32:49Ryan Hunn: in the Europa League with maximum points Love that for them I mean they're

32:52Musa Okwonga: they're a giant though if you look at the the profile of players

32:56Ryan Hunn: even still The budgets and also where those players will end up.

33:01Musa Okwonga: Like there are players in that team now that four years from now are going to be playing for like clubs with bigger incomes. Like that's clear to me.

33:13Ryan Hunn: Yeah, no, massively.

33:14Musa Okwonga: Yeah.

33:15Ryan Hunn: All right, man. I'll do it for the Premier League. Yep, yep. Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

33:50Ryan Hunn: That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini.

34:24Right,

34:26Ryan Hunn: let's go to La Liga because it felt like a massive, massive weekend at the top. This was huge, yeah. And I would go as far as to say I would include Real Betis' 2-0 win over Elche in that because it closed the gap to Atleti for Betis to just two points. Atleti losing at home to Barcelona 2-1 it was their first defeat in the league since the Athletic Club defeat away at San Mames at the beginning of September

35:00Musa Okwonga: this felt like I've got to say this felt like a Champions League like a dress rehearsal it did didn't it felt like a knockout dress rehearsal and I want to talk about it in that context of semi-final first leg exactly and the reason exactly and the reason this felt so big for Barcelona right they've now beaten Betis and Atleti. It's a big deal. Like, they've had some tests this year in the recent weeks. They started the league campaign with not the most challenging of fixtures and they came through as you'd expect. And after this first half, the first 35 minutes, Barcelona did not get their rhythm and they looked really open and Atleti could have had a couple.

35:37Musa Okwonga: And they were really cutting them apart at will. And I was like, I'm a bit concerned for them because they're not passing the stress test. I will say this, the comeback began in the middle of the pitch. Pedri, I have to shout out, Femi Lopez will get a ton of headlines, but Mark Bernal, you come in for Rodri, right? Like who's out. And in that context, the youngest midfielder of a relatively young three, we know Pedri's experienced and he's like an 80 year old in some ways, but still, the role that Mark Bernal had in steering that comeback, that is an absolutely elite performance. And when they took the lead, and Pedri was incredible, to get Ferman Lopez in position for the equaliser.

36:16Musa Okwonga: But in that second half, when Barcelona turned it on, Atleti could do nothing. I think the first half, their XG is like 1.4 and the second half is like 0.2. I mean, in midfield Barcelona, it was like watching the old school Barcelona of like 2011, 12, when they would just take the life out of games. It was incredible what they did in that second half.

36:38Ryan Hunn: Yeah. And I think the fact that they went in level at half a time is massive because Atleti genuinely could have been two up as you mentioned and that's such a key swing in the game where because the goal I think comes against the kind of against the run of play yeah it does it does totally and the timing of it as well I just think was so

36:57Musa Okwonga: the amount of stuff I know we can I know we talk about Pedri on this podcast but they knew what this was Pedri's ability to take the ball perfectly on the outside of either foot like when you watch Pedri receive the ball in midfield traffic if you've never watched Pedri before for an alien that's come down from like space and someone goes, based on Pedri's first touch with the outside of either his left foot or right foot, you wouldn't know actually. It's just, it's otherworldly what he's doing. And in a game when Lamin, Lamin Amal was heavily policed, where Rafinha was not getting the kind of looks that he often gets, the fact that Fermin Lopez can step up and this is the, this is the beauty of Barcelona's attack.

37:36Musa Okwonga: You can't keep them all busy at once. You can't. Anthony Gordon will just pummel away at that flank. a thankless task in this particular game. You'll keep Rafinha and Laminio Malt quiet, but then Fermin Lopez will pop up in those gaps. And he's such a good finisher. It's like those Real Madrid days when they would run the counter-attacks and you look left and right and you've got Ozil, Benzema, Cristiano Ronaldo and Kaka and you're like, what do I do with this? Because they can all finish and if they can't finish, then Modric is there. So yeah, this felt like it was 2-1, but Diego Simeone at the end no complaints because I think it was an overwhelming 2-1 in the end actually yeah yeah I think that's a good really impressed by it because Aleti were good they were like again they were really good for the first half they were brilliant I would say for the bulk of that and Barcelona in a game when they were really challenged where Real Madrid doing what they're doing at Valencia and looking like a really solid team they're looking really good all of a sudden Real Madrid this is a title race well yeah

38:41Ryan Hunn: Yeah, let's go there because it meant that Real Madrid overtook Atleti and they are now two points ahead in second, three points behind Barcelona. It makes you realise now how just key that Classico result was a few weeks ago. But since the Madrid derby, Real Madrid have looked super comfortable and have been getting more cohesive, way less dramatic.

39:03Musa Okwonga: They've just fixed the key elements. Look, we talked about Diamande up on the left side, Goulet tucking in alongside Valverde. Chiromene, Bernardo Silva in midfield. It just works. It's the perfect blend of their gifts, right? It's the perfect blend of their gifts. You have a defence that's happy. Mbappe is scoring freely. Jude Bellingham is just putting in, again, another player putting in defence and midfield numbers from the number 10. There's very few number 10s that can do that. And we say about Bellingham, don't we, like every game he adopts a different role. And here at one point, he was just like a brilliant left winger.

39:46Musa Okwonga: Almost scored a great individual goal. But Arda Goulet, Arda Goulet's pass for the final goal. So good. And Mbappe was like, I'm not taking any credit for this. Mbappe like, so Goulet looks up before the ball is played in. And then he does this beautiful like spin and pivot. He has a beautiful pivot. It's like Rajon Rondo, Pete Rajon Rondo, like for the Celtics, pivoting from the point guard position and slinging out for three. I mean, it's such a gorgeous pass that like as Mbappe takes the first touch, you can see him like his mouth is watering as he takes that. It's so, so good. And they're doing this thing, Madrid, where they're hitting teams early than conserving their energy.

40:29Musa Okwonga: It's actually, ironically, it's what Flick was wanting people to do. You know, when he was talking at Barca going, it doesn't always have to be like five, six nil and like blowing teams away. Actually, Sunder was a lot more control. and what Real are doing really well is that they're like hitting teams early and then just like okay calmer so so good also can I say as well beautiful tributes throughout Spain to Jesus de Miguel yeah these were really really like so sad man

40:55Ryan Hunn: we mentioned it on Thursday as well because there were many silences ahead of the Champions League games and all the games in Europe but yeah horrific yeah just quickly on Real Madrid before we move on. Vinicius returns after the international break to league games. Suspension's done. They host Celta Vigo in the first game back at the Benavid which I think even though that's not going to be an easy game by any means. Facing the side that's 11th in the table at home is a good game to reintegrate Vinicius Junior. Agreed, yes. But do you think this is going to be the potential next headache for them because it hasn't really affected them much in the Champions League but I think that the Champions League stuff is

41:42Musa Okwonga: it's not the business end yet it's the knockouts when is Vinicius and how is he going to be used in the knockouts

41:48Ryan Hunn: because that four has developed a real

41:51Musa Okwonga: chemistry

41:51Ryan Hunn: yeah like I think that they look they look the part they look legit I think the thing I found really interesting about Diamande as well is that when he's not scoring he's not just running at people his link-up play has been brilliant since he's been

42:04Musa Okwonga: there it reminds me of Adamolo Luckman when he came into Atleti and like the amount of extra work that he does and his ability and it's an underrated ability to get out of the way actually.

42:13Ryan Hunn: Yeah, yeah. Actually, I know you're right. Yeah. Especially because you've got a lot of people in that team who want the ball and a lot of people in that team who feel like they should have the ball and we've seen it before, right? Do you remember when Mbappe first went and there were literally times when him and Vinicius would bump into each other out on that left flank?

42:30Musa Okwonga: Whereas Diamandis, he's a catch and shoot player, right? In terms of like, he does the defensive work he's someone who's he's very very like efficient right he gets a shot off quick and he'll shoot even in this game like he skied one right but he just got it off quick no fuss it was a sensible decision it was the right choice to make and what I like about him is his demeanour is so good like and this is this is an underrated aspect of it but just a consummate team player and a selfless player and look he's not it's not an angel de maria like nobody is but in terms of the selflessness and the willingness just to kind of do a lot of dirty work out on the flank you see why he's such a great signing he's a key pillar of this but the beauty of that real madrid forward line is that everyone does slightly different things it's the everyone compliments everyone right and this was do you remember barcelona had messi and griezmann and if you looked at like the heat map for griezmann before he was signed you're like oh my god he occupies exactly the same spaces to the point where it's not even his fault that he's like treading on Messi's toes and vice versa.

43:37Musa Okwonga: Similar with Vinicius, like just the heat map of Vinicius and Mbappé at that point was so similar. And even though Mbappé is a very good central striker, he still likes that channel. And Diamandis has found a way to give it to him. So yeah, when Vinicius gets back, the challenge is not going to be even the next few months. The challenge is going to be at the business end of the season, Champions League run-ins, Classicos, who gets the nod? because that is absolutely what is on Vinicius' sort of spiritual calendar as in, will I get the major ranking? But at the moment, unfortunately, he's not the first choice 10, 9 or 7 in that team.

44:17Musa Okwonga: I'm going to say though, but before we move on, one more quick shout for Arda Gula, who I just want to say, to be fulfilling your potential that soon at that age in that team, I can't praise it enough. it's incredible what he's doing there it's incredible

44:33Ryan Hunn: Are there any other results you want to shout out around Europe quickly before we move on I suppose

44:37Musa Okwonga: I just want to have a quick nod to the Serie A title race was extremely interesting because Lazio undefeated still yep I think what played 9 drawn 2 after 11 games and that is maybe one of the surprise packages of Serie A season that whole race is shaping up so so well like I just cannot no idea where that's going to end up I mean enter beating Como 2-0 extremely impressive and almost the kind kind of like throwing down a Gortnett to the young pretenders. But yeah, that title race.

45:08Ryan Hunn: Interesting, isn't it? Two points separate Lazio, Inter and Roma. Roma also unbeaten. So the two sides from the capital unbeaten this season in the league. I was checking when the first derby is. I don't think it's till December.

45:20Musa Okwonga: It's going to be one of the most important derbies in recent years, actually. Yeah, which is really something.

45:25Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I mean, you look at Lazio, best defence in the league, third best attack yeah East Exxon's flying there yeah really impressive just in Germany quickly Dortmund and Bayern both won as did Freiburg

45:42Musa Okwonga: on Dortmund shout out to Joe Bellingham getting the England call up

45:46Ryan Hunn: yeah after we were talking about this on Thursday right with Seb Seb was talking about you know maybe for England they'll do it and we actually I think we said not yet but then literally the next day Thomas Tuchel named him in the squad.

45:59Musa Okwonga: He has absolutely like just, he's not jumped the queue, like he's risen to prominence. That Bayern performance, I think that was, that's a defining performance. Absolutely.

46:11Ryan Hunn: I think it's great though that players can get called up for performances like that or sustained runs of form like that, even if they're around squads because he might not throw Deitcher a huge amount, but if he does,

46:19Musa Okwonga: amazing. And the experience, the taste of it, of going up there, especially to be called up to the England squad in this generation of England players in midfield. In midfield. I can't praise it enough, man. It's amazing. It's amazing.

46:33Ryan Hunn: Yeah, it is amazing. I would like to just shout the WSL very quickly. Yes, yes. Chelsea dropped points on the weekend. They drew to Everton, won all, which meant that Manchester City went top of the WSL again. And what is happening next weekend? Chelsea host Manchester City in a top of the table clash. London City Lionesses bounce back from their defeat the week before to beat Birmingham 4-1 and they go to Arsenal next week who won at the weekend they won they won a game that's two wins of their last three in the league they beat Liverpool 2-1 away but can we just shout Manchester United because while the men's side of everything is chaotic Ivo Oled again we've talked about this before but doing an unbelievable job since she's come in as Manchester United manager they are a point behind Spurs who are in fourth and they're four points off the Champions League qualification spots but yeah a 1-0 win away at Villa on the weekend another really impressive result for Manchester United.

47:37Ryan Hunn: Fantastic. Right before we go, a few days ago Cristiano Ronaldo announced his retirement from international football and I was just looking at some updates on this which I found quite interesting George Jesus said that he found out when we all did about this. Cristiano Ronaldo made the Instagram announcement on Thursday, not long after we'd put the podcast out or after we recorded. And he said, Jesus said, I found out when we all did. Until then, I knew nothing about it. He was playing, scoring goals. He was one of the players on my squad list. Ronaldo was available again. This is from a BBC article.

48:14Ryan Hunn: Ronaldo was available again after serving a 30-day suspension from international duty. Jesus became visibly annoyed on Friday as journalists press... George Jesus became visibly annoyed as journalists pressed him about the dispute he said all my decisions were made with the team in mind quite a sorry end to an era really isn't it and I think that unfortunately I think one that I mean I think Cristiano Ronaldo has kind of brought on himself

48:44Musa Okwonga: I think when you are a multiple Ballon d 'Or winner and you've won everything I mean everything you could pretty much want to win in the game game, with the exception of a World Cup, which is frankly a crapshoot, right? And that eludes even the game's greatest players, of which Cristiano Ronaldo has won. With that track record, you can stage manage your departure perfectly. Like, it's not the hardest thing to choreograph a beautiful farewell. And I think timing is everything. You look at Tony Crowe stepping away from the game and how he did it. Like, there's a way to do it. But Tony Crowe's left and everyone knew he was leaving and still managed to make a draw together.

49:22Musa Okwonga: So I suppose the problem is, it's like when you, when you have like a band playing a huge gig, there's a reason they play the bangers at the end, because it's the feeling that you leave the show with. What's that MF Doom lyric? Folks leave out the show feeling truly enlightened, right? It's that you, you want people to feel truly enlightened at the very end. And I think Cristiano Ronaldo just didn't manage this well. He didn't manage the end of the career well in terms of international career. And he wasn't thinking when was the Swan song. It was almost like I keep fighting, but the fight leaves me.

49:57And that,

49:58Musa Okwonga: that is the tragedy here, actually, from that perspective. It is the tragedy because like, again, if Cristiano Ronaldo had stepped away from international football X years ago and club football, even not saying he's stopping club football, but a certain perspective, I think if he stepped away from the sort of the center stage, just a few years earlier, it's a completely different conversation about his legacy which is the conversation that he cares about

50:24Ryan Hunn: that's the thing that's why I just don't get it

50:26Musa Okwonga: you know

50:26Ryan Hunn: yeah I mean the whole thing is about legacy for him yeah why he constantly refers to how many goals he's scored how many games he's played for Portugal how you know it's numbers because his name is going to constantly be there on these leaderboards or list of players who have achieved the most whatever and I think that's the thing with him right whereas actually what he should have done to achieve what he I think has set out to achieve was in my opinion done what Tony Kroos did Tony Kroos could have played for a lot longer and still been at the highest level different players obviously so I'm not saying that the same rule should apply for everyone but the reason why Kroos retired was just because he said look I want to exit when I'm at the maximum him and i think what cristiano ronaldo has done has it's kind of basically it's a lesson it's a lesson actually yeah but i mean is it you know i mean like at the end of the day i think that he's it's been hanging over that portugal national side for a long long time it doesn't mean he's not their greatest ever player i think that's i mean again but these but you can still two things

51:33Musa Okwonga: can be true right yeah yeah i think i mentioned this before you know those action movies where you have the like the main character who just gets older and older and it's like still beating people up. And the one thing that's interesting with this, you know Denzel Washington, right? You see the equalizer, like how his fights get shorter as he gets older, because it's the understanding that someone who's a bit older, they can beat you as long as the fight is short. And I think Cristiano Ronaldo did this thing where he's still trying to fight like a 22 year old, right? And that is the problem. Age comes for us all.

52:00Musa Okwonga: And the failure, the refills to accept that. If you look at young Cristiano Ronaldo, it haunts the older one. You see it with a lot of the tech guys, the tech bros where they see pictures of themselves jumping on stage you know with the earpiece and they're 25 years old and they've created this incredible product and they're like in their mid 50s now 60s trying to do it again it's like you don't have to do it again actually like there are steps don't have to retread the legacy is secure just leave it alone you don't have to do that like you don't have to go for the high notes like no one's asking you to like literally no one's asking you to you can just be a you can come off the bench 10 minutes at a time like Xavi was you remember like Xavi came in as the closer in those games for like Barcelona and just shut games down and everyone loved it and even like you know not to compare him to the other guy but the other guy you know in certain games would come in and like one of my favourite Barcelona teams is when Leo Messi won the Copa del Rey with the young players and you could tell they loved playing with him and it was vice versa this mentoring role you know and I think if you're chasing legacy that's something you care about then this is the stuff you pay more attention to and look again maybe we're just like talking out of our you know talking out of our necks and look all the highlights are there you can go and watch I mean I think Rembrandt did a compilation of like all the goals he scored for for Real and it's just it's absolutely unbelievable what he did there actually and even like his international record it's 150 goals almost and 240 national appearances I mean bear in mind we started watching football you and I at a time when playing 100 games for England was otherworldly

53:35Ryan Hunn: yeah

53:35Musa Okwonga: and like 240. The numbers speak for themselves, absolutely. But unfortunately, so do the tributes. So do the tributes. And I just think that there should be an outpouring. For what he's achieved, there should be an outpouring. And unfortunately, the fact that there wasn't to the same level, that's in his corner, actually. That's in his corner. There's a novelist, right? Well, my favourite novelist, Elif Shafak, who was always a finalist, right? Like always nominated, always nominated. In the last few years, couple of years, Elif Shafak has started like winning awards and like achievement awards and that.

54:14Musa Okwonga: And if you, if you go to Elif Shafak's Instagram, you will just see like all the comments of like, people are just bursting with joy. Like that is a beloved, beloved artist. And I think when you've got to a certain point, right? And you're in a sense like you're you're you're selling well and you're you're comfortable in a different context it's about the love actually and i don't know there's a sadness to there's a yeah legacy is about that and there's a sadness to it to be honest there's a sadness to it

54:45Ryan Hunn: all right man let's roll let's do it let's do it and we hope everyone's staying safe and well wherever you are don't forget if you want to go and sign up to study on patreon you get every episode ad free info including extra episodes that are available on the free feed and uh help support Stadio. So we'd be very grateful. So go to patreon.com forward slash Stadio if you want to sign up. There'll be another episode coming up later in the week. And until then, don't forget to check the Stadio outro's playlist on Spotify. Speaking of which, we're playing out on My Whole World by the New Age Steppers.

55:13Ryan Hunn: Anything you would like to add, Musok Wonga?

55:15Musa Okwonga: Thank goodness Manchester United are not my whole world. Thank goodness.

55:23Ryan Hunn: Hated. Adored.

55:25Musa Okwonga: Never ignored.

55:28Ryan Hunn: Much love, everyone. Have a great week. We'll be back with you on Thursday. See you then. My whole world is dying. Then I'll be free from crying. My whole world is dying. Then I'll be free from crying My life was so divine And everything I have was mine You found a way, came inside Take away everything I have Even though I'll always be true In everything you asked me to do Now I'm lonely all the time Since you went away My whole world Was dying Then I'd be free From crying My whole world My whole world My life was so divine And everything I had was mine You found a way I came inside I'd take away everything I had Even though I'll always be true In everything you asked me to do Now I'm lonely all the time Since you went away My whole world Is dying Then I'll be free From crying My whole world My whole world

58:12Ryan Hunn: way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's$2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving call 1-800-GRAINGER click ranger.com or just stop by grainger for the ones who get it done