Arlene Phillips

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1:53Jessie Ware: Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with Mum looking flat and red. Is my hair flat because of the rain? It's not flat. But it's not as woodsy. Oh, you just shushed it and it's perfect. Okay. How are you, Mum? I'm absolutely thrilled and excited and so pleased we've got this guest on because she is a complete legend. She really is a legend. She's a dance iconic legend. She has choreographed... Robbie Williams. Whitney Houston. Whitney Houston. Aretha Franklin. Elton John. Elton John. Queen. Queen. She choreographed the musical Annie, the film version. Iconic dancers.

2:38Jessie Ware: With the divorce. She is not only prolific and formidable, she's still working. She did the Guys and Dolls production at the Bridge Theatre two years ago, which I saw, which was fantastic. We're talking about Arlene Phillips, who you may know from Strictly back in the day. Hot gossip. I don't know who hot gossip are. Darling, you've missed out there. I mean, not only has she been on the screen, she's choreographed some of the most memorable, iconic scenes in shows, music videos. I just need to know what it was like to work with Whitney Houston. She choreographed the Whitney How Will I Know video and I Want to Dance with Somebody.

3:20Jessie Ware: She did I'm Still Standing for Elton John. Not a DJ. She's even done a bit of river dance. I know. It's about time we had another dame on the podcast. But she's also a genuinely gorgeous person. You met Arlene somewhere. I met her at the Look Who's Cooking Dinner, the Leukaemia Trust, which she has a big interest in because her own mum died of leukaemia when she was quite young. And her story is really fascinating. But we're both Mancunians, Jess. Oh, I can't. From Presswitch. I can't wait to meet her and hear her stories about everyone and every dance and every bevel. I'm cooking today. I'm cooking from, let me get it, from...

4:06Jessie Ware: Simply Two. Ottolenghi's Simple Two. It's his new cookbook. I went to the launch last week. Did you? Which was fab. What are you cooking, darling? I'm cooking quite a lot in it. But actually, it is pretty straightforward. I'm cooking cat's feta frittata because we've got Arlene coming over at 12. So that's just a really delicious frittata with a big block of feta, loads of dill, cumin seeds, a bit of Aleppo chili. I'm trying these delicious butter beans with Urfa chili butter. I don't have Urfa, so you can make a version of Urfa kind of. Urfa's milder on the milder side. Yes, so I've put ancho and smoked paprika together.

4:46Jessie Ware: And I've got bold beans, of course. And then I've also done, this is quite unusual, to be able to do four otolenghi things. And that's not me being an overshiver. It just is quite simple. Did you have all the ingredients in? I mean, I had to do a couple of delivery. I actually had to delivery from Otolenghi's restaurant to get the bieber sal cassie. Oh, I've always had bieber. Oh, no, bieber pepper. Yeah. No, it's different. OK. It's like peppers. Anyway, I'm doing the double chocolate shortbreads with chilli or without. I've only put a tiny bit of chilli in, Mum. Good. There's plenty. My kids will be happy.

5:23Jessie Ware: Jessie, it's already got marks on it, your cookbook. I know. I've really got involved. Yeah. And then I'm doing sumac roasted strawberries. It's all quite straightforward, actually, but it's all delicious. Tolling, I think that I went to this kind of dance class that my parents sent me to when I was probably between 10 and 12. And it was a dance class that you went to to learn how to do the waltz for bar mitzvahs and weddings. And I've got a feeling she might have gone to the same dance class as me. Surely you would have remembered Arlene Phillips. No, she's a bit older than me, Jess. Believe it or not, there are people that are slightly older than me.

6:01Jessie Ware: and I think that she might have gone to the same dance class to learn how to dance at bar mitzvahs and weddings. Dame Arlene Phillips coming up on Table Mammoth.

6:19Jessie Ware: Dame Arlene Phillips, thank you so much for coming over. We are so thrilled to have you. We've got so much to talk about because, well, your career is illustrious and just unbelievable. We were going through some things. Actually, Tully, who works on our team, used to work with you for a bit. Oh, he certainly did. And he showed us something that he did when he was a teenager and it was like a show reel. You've choreographed everybody, but like some of the greatest greats, from Whitney Houston to Elton John to Aretha Franklin, Queen, Freddie Mercury, Michael Flatley. I mean, selfishly, I just need to know about Whitney Houston for a moment.

6:59How was it working with her? It was incredible. And there's this kind of underlying story because when she did her first music video, How Will I Know? It kind of came straight off the back of I Will Always Love You when suddenly she found that the world kind of loved her. But she wasn't ready for it. So she was so shy. She was so shy. She was in the Winnebago most of the time and she would come out and I'd show her the choreography. I was told to make it straightforward, simple. And she has very long, narrow feet and she hated her feet because she felt they were too big for her. So she didn't want any shots of a side angle for her feet.

7:47She didn't want them, you know, anyone to see. So everything was sort of choreographed. So that she was always walking in the right direction for the camera, that she was always dancing, moving. And she was amazing. And then a few months later, when I went to New York to do I Want to Dance with Somebody and a really different Whitney, she realized the world loved her. She wanted to try everything, like I want choreography, I want me to make me move, I want to dance. and it was so different from the shyness of that first moment to Whitney being full-on Whitney. Could she dance? She's a really good mover, really good.

8:32And once she gets dancing, you believe that she's doing the greatest piece of choreography in the world. Actually, it was the boys that surrounded her in the original video. but she just came to life and she has perfect lip sync. You would have no idea that she was not singing live. Everything about her was real and she attacked the choreography and the more I gave her, the happier she was. And, of course, that song has been all about dance ever since Whitney first sang it.

9:07Jessie Ware: I mean, we're going to go back into so many different things But let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up? Who was around your dinner table and what were you eating? Okay, well, I grew up in North Manchester. Actually, a place called Hightown, which no longer exists. But it was off a street called Waterloo Road, where the famous thing about it, there was a shop called Titanics. Of course. Oh my God, the deli? Yeah. Of course. It's not there anymore. No, nothing is. That whole area where I lived. High town was a lot of manufacturing. Yeah. Handbags, clothing. It was where all the Jewish people had manufacturing.

9:51Jessie Ware: Are you Jewish? Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up within this area that was very much a Jewish area. There was, you know, the bakers, the bagels, the… Titanic. Titanic, smoked salmon. And the thing about smoked salmon, we didn't grow up with very much money. but you could get this smoked salmon that was cut fine but they also had salmon pieces which were the bits so you could scrape off the skin and eat and and there was always it was always there so it's like everybody no matter where they came from could afford to eat the smoked salmon um and that yeah that's where I grew up well you know it well yeah yeah yeah I was wondering Arlene whether we do you remember there was a dance class that you got sent to by your parents so you could learn to dance at the mitzvahs and weddings and I used to go to this dance class and I wondered if you had gone to it too no no my dance came from a different place but I know the dance class okay you men okay everybody's taught everyone was taught how to hold someone because you still did the waltz at the mitzvahs and weddings.

11:11Jessie Ware: So you had to learn how to do it. Did you have a bat mitzvah? No, no, no. I lived in a kind of difficult situation of a father that really didn't own the religion. And my mother, again, was part of a religious community, but no, it didn't kind of feed down to us very much at all. Just kind of growing up was hard. You know, I wanted dance lessons. We didn't have money for dance lessons. It was a kind of life of not haves. Like one of the girls that lived down the road had black patent shoes with a strap. And I think I must have dreamt of having that patent shoes for as long as I could remember.

11:56And I never did get them. We just had one pair of shoes and you wore them for school, for parties, whatever. So the thing that, you know, you would go to a formal dance class, you could do it. I struggled. An uncle paid some, but I really struggled. All I wanted to do was dance. So where did you learn to dance? Eventually, an uncle decided to pay for my lessons. At first, we'd moved to Presswich and there was a dance class close by, but in a church hall. And for me, it was never a proper dance class because in my books that I was getting from the library, there was always a studio that had ballet bars and this didn't.

12:40So I nagged and nagged and nagged till I went to a very, very big dance school on Dean's Gate, up 89 steps up to the studio at the top. And that's where I wanted to live, breathe, stay. It was my life. I love that.

12:59Jessie Ware: And what were you eating around the dinner table, apart from the bits from Titanic? Yes. What's a memorable dish? My memorable dish is my mum's chicken soup. It was so delicious. It had a sort of an earthiness to it, but it was so fulfilling. So yes, mum was an amazing cook. And what's interesting, she left me all the recipes in the book. She got ill. We didn't know what it was, but it was leukemia. And so she did know that it was bad. And so she wrote all the recipes out for me. And I still got that book. How old were you when she got ill? 15. Yeah. Yeah. and it was like three months from knowing, you know, to passing away.

13:55I'm so sorry. And that was, it's absolutely life-changing. I missed school to look after her. I never thought of myself as a carer, but actually looking back, I missed school, so getting back to my school, I was at Manchester Central High in Wickfield Street and it was a very state school but very academic and so when you fall behind you kind of don't have the courage to make up that time so I left school early and managed to get Manchester County Council pay for me for a scholarship to the ballet school that I'd been training at to go full-time and that was that

14:45Jessie Ware: was it for me life was made but did you have more responsibility once your mum had died at home yeah almost can't even go into it my dad got very ill because for him this was devastating he was kind of the outsider he was a really lone wolf if you like so my mum was everything and he got ill, blood clots in his arm and didn't really know how to function. So it's my older brother, Ian, and my younger sister, Karen. We all worked out who was going to do what. He left school to earn some money. My younger sister was doing the cooking, the washing up. I was all around general help and dancing. I could not have survived without dance.

15:33Dance for me was about living. everything else was too difficult to even contemplate.

15:40Jessie Ware: Was it a particular sort of dance? Was it ballet or modern dance or tap or flamenco? What? It started off with ballet and wanted to be a ballerina and wanted to go to London and get a scholarship. But that fell away. There was no chance. So I taught ballet, studied ballet for four years at my old dance school. And then Miss Tweedy, the teacher, asked me if I'd like to stay on and teach. And I thought, well, this is perfect. I can keep looking after my sister. I can make things work, you know, because I've got some money coming in. It actually started at£5 a week. Can you imagine? £5 a week was really important.

16:25So I was living this life of teaching. And that was obviously about dancing. and then one day Miss Tweedy said, I want you to go to London. There's a new dance school open in Covent Garden and you don't have to pay for a whole term. You can go into any class and you can take any class you want. Go and take classes. Go for a week. I'll pay all your expenses and then come back. And when the new term happens in August, you've brought new work because they did contemporary dance. Is that pineapple? No, it's pre-Pineapple. The dance centre on Floral Street was the place to go. And I did everything.

17:10I did modern jazz. I did lyrical jazz. I did every style you could imagine and just worked and worked and worked. At the end of the week, I went in to a class that said, modern American jazz, Molly Malloy. And I thought, oh, that sounds nice for my last class. and then my life changed. I went into her class and it was so beautiful. It was a real combination of contemporary dance, classical dance and lyrical jazz. And every move, it was like ballet, but it was more than. And at the end of the class, I'd fallen in love with this style of dance. And there was a table like this that everyone could sit around at the dance centre when they'd finished class.

18:01There was a jug of Kona coffee and everyone, the teacher, Molly Malloy, was sitting around and everyone, and I thought, well, why not go and sit down with everyone? And she turned to me and she said, nobody has ever come into my class and just known what to do. Have you trained before in jazz? And I said, no, I haven't. basically it's a classical base she said I'd like to offer you a scholarship and I went oh I'd love it but I can't I've got to go back to Manchester I've got family commitments how old were you at this age 23 okay I was a grown-up proper grown-up time to make my own decisions and she said well how if you love the class so much what would it take for you to move to London I said I couldn't you know I don't I've got a job I've got and then she said well sometimes I think if you want something enough there's a way to make it happen and what do you think you would need if you came to London I said well firstly not going home because if I did go home I'd never I'd never come back but also I need a place to live to earn some money and then I could be here and she said well, there's a cafe across the road and I know they're looking for help.

19:23And I have a really good friend looking for someone to live in, help with the household stuff, help babysit his little son. And that person was Ridley Scott. Oh, my God. Your life, Arnie. And that changed everything. So I told Miss Tweedy, I can't come back, but I will pay her back every penny. I talked to my family and they didn't understand. And I said, if I come home, even for a day, I'll never leave again. And I will take care from a distance. My sister was grown up now. And my dad was much better and stronger. How did they react to it? Not good. Oh. But, and my brother, but all that changed when I truly got the chance to explain that I couldn't walk away from this.

20:22It's everything I've dreamed of. And there I was with a place to live, dance classes every day. And then because Ridley was a director of TV commercials and he knew this girl was a dancer, he said, I've got a tiny little commercial I'm going to make. It's for lion's made ice cream. I think it's very simple. We've got a milkmaid and a farmer. And, you know, if you could just do some little steps, I said, well, why not? I thought, I can do some little steps. Funnily enough, the milkmaid in the commercial was Miriam Margulies. Good God. And, you know, we just did a little, you know, dancey step and the farmer did a step and then a two people cow came along.

21:14So I made this commercial and I never thought of being a choreographer. Those words didn't come into it until four weeks later, Ridley said, I've got a commercial being made here. It's an American product called Dr. Pepper. We didn't have Dr. Pepper in the UK. And they did the biggest dance commercials for years. Dr. Pepper had big dance commercials. And he said, asked me if I would do a commercial for him, for Dr. Pepper. Well, I thought it would be a bit like the other one. It wasn't. It was at Elstree. There were 42 dancers. And I made this commercial with him. And so my career became a choreographer.

21:57And that's where I had money to put my dance group together called Hot Gossip. Hot Gossip.

22:04Jessie Ware: Well, whilst I sort out the food, mum does want to talk about hot gossip She's, because I You won't know anything about them I didn't, but I feel bad because I think I should know about them No But mum said they were the hottest thing That you could possibly imagine But I'm just going to go and sort out the food And you wore very little Very little Very little And you had gorgeous girls And male And male Yes, all black mixed race, which is very unusual. But they were the dancers that weren't getting jobs at that time. So how many people were in Hot Gossip? There were nine. Nine. There were nine because we were offered from a photograph, actually, of Hot Gossip to do a once-a-week gig at a club called Monkbury's in the West End.

22:59And it was a small club, but everybody who was anybody, from actors to the arts to TV stars, everybody came to that club on German Street. It was a real 70s club. And we danced there.

23:17Jessie Ware: But you were also on TV. Well, the TV happened, actually, after I'd had the group for a good couple of years. Really? And just doing our once-a-weeks. But then Ritz magazine, which was a very, like a newspaper, that came out once a month and again landed with all the beautiful people. Yeah. And they had asked if they could take a photograph of Hot Gossip. And Hot Gossip was on the cover. A director called David Mallett saw the photograph. He was about to make the Kenny Everett video show. Yeah. And he wanted dancers. and he said to his PA, Jackie, get me Arlene Phillips, get me Hot Gossip and that's who's going to be on the show.

24:07And she said, well, you've never seen them dance. He said, I don't care. They're hot, yeah. I want the, this will make the Kenny Everett video show.

24:18Jessie Ware: But did you dance in the background of other people's videos as well? Not well. gossip or did you appear on top of the pops already steady go we did we it was all after kenny everett video show he was the one that broke the group for tv and not just in any ordinary way but but because and it was for us lucky we thought it would be a disaster um mary whitehouse a sort of so cool yeah i mean she was she was like a woman that complained about everything everything that was sexy sexy or modern yes and um she was a she hated self self-appointed carer of people's morality morality on tv yeah she was a bore but well but because she complained it got you more it went literally i'd say viral would be the word you use it didn't exist there yeah but we were everywhere we found ourselves after our first kenny everett video show the front of every newspaper they're still at home all those newspapers it was crazy how angry she was and how, like, a revelation to the press, to the world of dance, because most dance on television prior to hot gossip was, I mean, really good dancers, but you always had a smile.

25:58It always had something.

25:59Jessie Ware: Yeah, it was a bit like, yeah, you were on variety shows. Yeah, on a variety show. Whereas in the streets, discos were thriving. Yeah. The whole freedom to be who you were was happening on the streets, but not on TV. And for me, it was like breaking those boundaries. It was the 60s. Yeah, well, it was late, very late 60s and early 70s. Was Flick Colby in Hot Gossip? No, she was in Pans People. Pans People. Yes. So those were your competitors? Well, we came in after them. Oh, you were after them. And then we kind of broke a barrier that they were lovely and they were sweet, but we broke a barrier on what we wanted to do.

26:47Yes. And that was, it was so different. There was nothing sweet about it. And they were all beautiful girls, but it didn't have the progression in a way that Hot Gossip had, where we were allowed to go into a film studio and every week had one whole day with phenomenal scenic designs to create what was pre-music video. Yeah. But MTV hadn't started yet. So we were making music and dance videos. We had a pop group in every week. And you were dancing with them. Yeah, and we had amazing scenic design.

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29:50Jessie Ware: so i have got otolenghi's new cookbook which is called simple two otolenghi simple two and i it's lunchtime yes i thought about to ask the same question is it really simple otolenghi simple otolenghi simple yeah yeah it's you know you i definitely didn't have the right chili and so I've had to improvise a bit earth for chili I need to get because it seems to be in every dish that I made today but we've got in the cookbook cat's feta frittata loads of um spinach so we should all look out for stuff in our teeth loads of dill and feta these are like baked beans that have been done with a earth for chili butter that's um and actually I didn't have preserved lemons which I'm not mad about preserved lemons so I kind of improvised a preserved lemon on the top and then just a green salad.

30:40Jessie Ware: Right. And you put a wedge of lime with the frittata. Oh, nice. I can put some, do you want toast as well or not? No. I don't need. I'm fine. Okay, fine. Sorry. I'm fine. I'm really fine. But whilst, well, whilst I serve up. Yeah. Can you start thinking about your last supper? You're going to a desert island. Oh, a desert island. I'm not going to die. You're not just in the middle of the day. Okay. and you have a starter, a main, a pud and a drink of choice. Aha. Okay. Okay. Where do I put the lemon juice? I think it's for the frittata. Okay. Your choreography is just some of the most memorable.

31:23Jessie Ware: I mean, Annie. How old were you when you did Annie? I always have to work it back to my... Alana, my oldest daughter. who came everywhere with me, travelling, you know, sort of travelling the world until I had my second daughter, Abby, and then getting... She came quite, you know, not for as many years as Alana did, but they both came for trips. So it was 1983, so 40, no, 30-something. And it was just the most incredible experience. I mean, you still work very, very hard. You're about to go to Manchester to do a Sondheim musical. Is that Sondheim? Yeah. And I saw your production of Guys and Dolls.

32:17Jessie Ware: Did you enjoy it? Yeah, I loved it. It was brilliant. It felt really fresh, actually, with the way, the direction and all of that. It was brilliant. I loved it. Yeah, it was such a success. I loved the effect it had on people. The effect it had on people was quite extraordinary. People with depression, people seemed to be able to find, like, and everything's okay, having watched Guys and Dolls, finding their spirits lifted. And it seemed to have that, you know, talking to the people that went 62 times, you know, 68 times. People came over and over again because of what they found. And being able to be close to it, somehow you feel like you're part of it because we had all of the immersive and the standing.

33:10And it really did strike a chord with me on our closing night with some of the people who had depression and life changed after seeing Guys and Dolls and knowing they could always afford a ticket to go and stand when they needed help. I mean, you sort of help create that with, you know, the amazing team on that show. And you realise that it helps people change their lives. So it's very special to me, that show. Have you had time to think about your last supper? Yes. OK. Yes, I have. Come on then. I would definitely go with sushi. Okay. As a starter? As a starter, yes. Because I love it, but I know what I want for my main course.

34:02Okay. So, and that, you know. You don't want to fill up too quickly. Yeah, I don't want. And also. Can I take that? I like. Yes, yes, thank you. No worries. Yeah. I like rhythm. I like sort of something that leads to something. and people say, oh, no, you can't do that because you've just had your fish. I like rhythm in my life. So what's your favourite sushi? My favourite sushi was I was in New York recently and they did the most incredible sushi. Like there was this heart-shaped sushi and the outside was seaweed and inside it had tuna and salmon. and they were in this heart and it was just, the way they just slightly softened the tuna and the salmon, it was like eating the heart of heaven.

34:57Oh, the heart of heaven. I loved it and I could eat any sushi, any day, any time. And what do you drink when you're having sushi? I love ginger beer. Absolutely love ginger beer. I love the taste. I love ginger. I love ginger too. Do you put lime ever with your ginger beer? Only if they offer it. I wouldn't think of adding it. You wouldn't think of adding it. But if I'm out and I always drink ginger beer because I'm not very big on alcohol.

35:27Jessie Ware: You don't drink much, but you've probably been with people that can party quite hard. So are you the sensible one, Arlene, when you used to be out with maybe Elton John and after the I'm still standing video? Well, that's why she's still standing, darling. so I'm the only drinks I like and have always liked are extravagant cocktails I mean I had one in Toronto and it was vodka based and it had candy floss in it oh my god and it was the most divine alcoholic drink I've ever had if I could go back to that hotel and have another one I would I love that everything you described like whether it's with candy floss I can imagine these visuals I feel like everything like the the heart-shaped sushi everything has to look quite delightful am I right or maybe not I mean I'm sure it has to taste good too it does I have to like I was feel things like patterns or rhythms or what food I would eat with what food or it all has to have a a line through it you know so what's your big main course my main course That you're saving yourself for?

36:39Anything with lobster. I love lobster. So that's why I was like a little afraid of saying about the sushi because here I go again. Okay. But I love lobster. It feels... How do you like it? Just grilled? I like... I don't like it cold. I like it just grilled with a little bit of butter and nothing else. Okay. Just the lobster and the butter. No sides? I would eat sides, but I wouldn't mind whether they were chips or mashed potato. I love mashed potato. Okay. What's your pud? Ah, my pudding is definitely like meringue and cream and fruit, whipped up almost like a Knickerbocker Glory, but in a bowl.

37:27Like an eat-a-mess? Lots of... Yeah, more than. I want more than eat. I want a nickel book of glory and, yes, I eat and mess together. You know, get the ice cream, get the meringue, get the cream, pop in the fruit and be extravagant with it. And then I can just dip the spoon in and just love every mouthful.

37:53Jessie Ware: Arlene, when you talk, you come across as such a warm and generous person. How were you ever a judge on any kind of competition because you'd give the benefit of the doubt to anybody, I imagine. I think I came from, at the start of Strictly, a very different kind of era, a very different way. Kind sort of didn't really come into it. It didn't really come into it. It was about how powerful it can be and how, for me, the way I was teaching then, I would never teach that way now, but it was disciplined and everyone had to find, you know, in dance, everyone had to work really hard. They had to find strength in their body.

38:41They had to work for it. We danced on concrete floors, eight hours. You'd never do that now. Every floor is sprung. So I went through the harsh times. So I offered the harsh times for anyone to improve on Strictly. But gradually that faded away and it became heartwarming and helpful and to this day now I am such a different teacher choreographer the whole way even my daughters have taught me to be kind and my granddaughters who live to be kind to the point that you know they talk to me about like the races in school being in the school races and how you know it's about taking part i know it drives me mad it's not winning it doesn't me i love it and actually in starlight express in bochum in germany which has been running now for 38 years we have just brought in a swiss train because it's the slowest train in the world and it's about this train taking part and picking up those who crash and bring them along and there's a whole new warmth in this the races in starlight express are everything every nation racing against each other and suddenly you bring this train in the applause the the kind of the love that the audience give to it is a new thing so that's me

40:20Jessie Ware: a new thing let's talk about starlight express you choreograph the original star yes jesse's favorite well to be honest i never saw it the first time around and i feel like you really denied me sorry darling but i took my kids to the recent one in uh wembley but it has never come off in germany no 38 years sold out it is i mean it's it's quite bonkers it is utterly and totally bonkers i mean we're all trains but we're talking you know it's not a matter of if it's a matter of and then i was like everyone yeah but but this is how deep i am to musical theater into musical theater with my children at the moment i spotted hydrogen as a rum tugger in cats yes and i was like yeah that's hydrogen kids that's hydrogen it absolutely is i swear there were a few starlight express um there were a number of yeah ex-star lighters it made me laugh so much I was like wow I'm really an MT if I'm spotting the rum tugger.

41:21Jessie Ware: Did Andrew Lloyd write Starlight Express as well? Yes he did he wrote it for his two children Nick and Imogen at the time sadly Nick passed away and he was also a writer music of music but he wrote it for them because he was absolutely in love with trains and the little engine that could and you know Thomas the Tank Engine. Those were his loves. You did Saturday Night Fever? Yes. The original one in London. The original one in London. Can I tell you, I loved Adam Garcia so much that I wrote to him and he sent me a picture, a signed picture. I fancied him so much. Oh, yeah. So did everybody. He was so handsome.

42:07And the stage door at the Palladium was packed.

42:11Jessie Ware: Oh, I bet. You know, everyone thinks he's only got packed when Evita was on. when Adam Garcia was on and he walked out. He's so gorgeous. Generally, he had a beanie on and his head down. A lot of people would miss him. Such a beautiful human being. So wonderful and such a great actor and dancer. He is one of the top dancers, tap dancers in the world.

42:42this is sumac roasted strawberries with greek yogurt and actually otolenghi granola on the top

42:49Jessie Ware: so it's you know it's not your nicole bocca glory but it's nearly close that's nice delicious this is super delicious oh my gosh i need to know more about some of these greats that you've worked with. Are there any memorable meals that you had with Aretha Franklin? Did Elton John take you out for dinner? Many times. Oh really? Always. He is the most generous of human beings I've really ever worked with. Always dinners, always the best time. I don't think he really liked making music videos. Right. There's a lot of persuading going on. but a wonderful Aretha Franklin, and I was working with her, she was very agoraphobic and couldn't come out of the house.

43:45And they had the whole way tented to the car and the same when we got into the studio.

43:52Jessie Ware: That's why she didn't perform anymore. But how did she sing at the inauguration of Barack Obama? Probably with a great difficulty. Probably it was very difficult together. I didn't know that. Because she believed in Barack so much and I don't know. So what, it would have to all be covered? That's a shame. She's like dynamite when she's there singing. Oh, Freddie Mercury. Freddie. Tell us about Freddie Mercury. Freddie, my love. Oh, my God. Don't. What was so beautiful about Freddie is, like, Elton was, you know, music videos, he would do them. He was not in love with it. Freddie loved every second.

44:35From the moment he decides on the track, you're gathered. He had a little flat in Earl's Court, not too far away from where he lived, and that was his working place. Freddie was involved with every moment, everything he wanted, the detail, and he was also this most incredible human being. And after meeting him, I think doing two or three videos, I was then invited to the house, to the parties, the wild parties, the incredible bedroom that, you know... What happened in the bedroom? ...contagonal. Well, just to have a look at it, it's all mirrored, and the ceiling is mirrored. It's just wonderful and extravagant.

45:19Was that the place at the house party

45:20Jessie Ware: where everyone would go for a deep and meaningful? Would you go into Freddie's bedroom and everyone would have a chat? Like, you know how when you're at a house party, you always find the bedroom and you have a sit-down? Yeah, he was happy to sit on the bed and chat, yeah. And you're drinking ginger beer. I know. I think it was a little wilder at the time. Anything goes. But working with him was just unbelievable. And the things that he wanted to do, you know, wild and wonderful, stand on top of the mountain, fly down, you know, it's just incredible. I had the most interesting life. I mean, I was there and back on aeroplanes.

46:00you know I don't know I was making you know videos in LA and then I would come back and do two in London and then I go you know off somewhere else south of France or um so ever on an airplane and ever traveling and they were you know the the whole MTV thing which I was one of the choreographers there right at the start the whole storytelling within those three minutes was worked on and they would be up and down in a day. They would start building at 6am, they'd build the set, they'd build the design, you'd go in, you're doing shot after shot after shot after shot and you'd finish at midnight and everybody just got on with it.

46:47That's the way it was because particularly with superstars, they were going somewhere else the next day. But it was just a wild and wonderful time, the whole MTV thing.

46:58Jessie Ware: I wanted to know, you've taught so many people, you've helped people with their career, and you've given so many artists so much to their careers with your dance. Is there any artist that stands out that's taught you something? I think if it was any artist, I would say Freddie, because with Freddie, there was no way that something couldn't happen if he wanted it. Even to the point when I was doing a music video he did, I Was Born to Love You. We had a couple from Belgium, two dancers that I'd hired, who were really, really frenetic and dangerous. and, you know, one of the male dancers had a knife.

47:48The younger dancer was dressed in, like, fiery clothes. And we started to do a dance that create this piece that had a feeling of danger, but then the male dancer started taking it like... There was a slide along the floor, which was that you push her, you know, sideways on her knees, and that slide is taken on your hip. But he literally threw her. And at the end of the catwalk in which she was on was a large sort of mirror and she cracked her head against the mirror. The head was bleeding. So she was taken to the nearest hospital by Freddie, who said, let me go, let me go. Lifted her up like it was King Kong.

48:37And he turns to me and said, I'll be back very quickly because they're going to do this very quickly because I'm going to go in and sign autographs all the time running to the door. And so we'll continue when I get back. And he actually did. He took her to the hospital, got his way into A &E, stitched up, brought her back, and we continued. And it was just unbelievable. But in the moment and the time that he was away, one of the carpenters and they they all did sort of everything you know they built sets they whatever one of them came over to me and he said that was your fault I think you should be fully responsible for her cracking her head I said but what do you mean he said well I was watching that And each slide got more energy into it than the one before.

49:36And you were saying one more, one more. Oh, you thought you were encouraging him. And he thought that, yeah, that I was responsible. How did that make you feel? I was furious. I said, no, this was carefully composed. It was an all-out mistake. And, no, I think you're actually in the wrong. Anyway, we started talking. We've never stopped talking. And he is still my partner. And my daughter's dad. Oh, how funny. Maybe he was like, what's it called, negging you?

50:12Jessie Ware: He was basically being like... Oh, so he was chatting you up, really. He was chatting you up. Was that, wow. I don't know. But anyway, we've been together ever since. How funny. That's brilliant. All because of Freddie. Did you ever work together again? We worked together a lot after that, you know, because he worked in music videos and I worked in music videos. So, yes, we did. We're trying out some new questions in this series and we want to do one that's called So Wrong It's Right. But I feel like you won't think anything's wrong. But is there any interesting combinations that Arlene Phillips likes to eat?

50:46I love sweet and savoury. A lot of people do not like that. You know, I would eat a pickle cucumber with jam on it.

50:55Jessie Ware: um yeah have you in a bagel oh my word okay yeah why not why not you know i i love that feeling i think abby started me off on it my daughter she loves sweet and savory this is interesting because we're going to try all these things so arlene phillips is a pickle what kind of pickle Mrs. L Wood, but sweet and sour. Okay, so. Yeah, what kind of jam? And the jam, I love strawberry jam. And then I would add some cream cheese into it. Sure, why not? And why not? And then actually that ting you get when the pickle hits the jam. I love it. Are you going to try that one later? No. Yeah, you will, you will.

51:43Jessie Ware: Okay, well, that was a perfect answer, so great. If we were coming round to your house for dinner, would you be cooking? Absolutely not. 100 % I don't think anyone would or has ever eaten my food. No, it's too odd. But my partner is a brilliant, brilliant cook. The carpenter. Yes, the ex-carpenter. Yeah, brilliant, brilliant cook. And he makes the most delicious meals. And I am so lucky because I'm always out working and there's always a meal ready of delicious food. And who could want anything better than that? No, you couldn't. So if we were coming around to yours, what would you be asking him to make for us?

52:29Jessie Ware: And what would we be listening to? OK, I would probably be asking him to make his spaghetti bolognese because the sauce, I don't know what he puts in it, but everybody in my family, the children, the grandchildren, absolutely love his Bolognese sauce. It has such a tinge to it of so many flavours bedded in this gorgeous Bolognese. Does your daughter know what the secret sauce is for her? What is it, Abby? Cinnamon. Cinnamon? Yeah. I've got cinnamon in mine. Okay. Because in Greece they put cinnamon in. Yeah. Yes. I love that. Yeah. What's the sweet and the salty, you know. Yeah. And then what would be playing at your dinner party?

53:15Well, if I had my way, it would be musical theatre tunes. It would 100%. Heaven. One after the other, after the other, after the other. But if people object to theatre tunes, it probably would be 80s. 80s. 80s anthems. Yeah. Belt and loud.

53:41Jessie Ware: Or as your children call it, eighties. Eighties. Eighties. Eighties. Eighties. Yeah. I love that. Can you tell us a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere? Oh, I've already mentioned chicken soup. 100 % my mother's chicken soup. but another taste that would absolutely make me travel anywhere to it is caviar with sour cream. You have lived a life, Arlene Phillips, and I'm here for it. Go on. Okay, caviar. Yeah, caviar, sour cream, lots and lots of lemons squeezed in and pepper on the top. What do you have it on, a cracker? I prefer to have it on a cracker than I do on a blini. Okay.

54:30Because sometimes those blinis don't toast well. No, they don't. You're eating this flavourless...

54:35Jessie Ware: Spongy thing, yeah. I think Goldie Hawn in Overboard has it on a cracker. Does she? I think she does. If Goldie Hawn can have it on a cracker, so can I. I just want to know, did you ever go to Studio 54? I did. Was it amazing? It was unreal. Funny enough, I saw Rocky Horror Show there two weeks ago. Oh, did you see Luke Evans? Luke Evans. Oh, he's so fantastic. I love him. I'm so happy for him. It's going so well. He was brilliant. I think possibly the best I've ever seen. Oh, really? Oh, he was absolutely brilliant. And when that voice comes out, you know, suddenly you... He has got a voice. A voice, a beautiful voice, tone.

55:19but I went to Studio 54 and the first person to take me to Studio 54 was Bianca Jagger and why? Because I used to teach occasionally Mick but mostly Bianca Jagger to a class to dance class I used to go to their house in Shani Walk what were they wanting to dance? Well Bianca wanted to learn to dance for exercises to keep her perfect body and just Mick she pushed him to do a bit of dance. God it's all down to you then Arlene.

55:53Jessie Ware: He's still moving. Well isn't he an enigma crikey you know but I was teaching her and she was going to be in New York and she wanted me to continue teaching her so I went to New York and was taken to Studio 54 with Andy Warhol Bianca Jack I mean it was just life unbelievable. Can you remember what you wore? Yeah what did you wear? I don't know, but interestingly, there's a photograph of me and Bianca Jagger dancing together that was double page of the Daily Mirror. And we were just dancing like arms wrapped around each other. So somewhere what I wore will be in that photograph. What's the table manner, the worst table manner you observe in other people that drives you mad?

56:38The worst? Yeah. people not putting their knives and forks back properly just leaving them anywhere anywhere at all I don't get it

56:49Jessie Ware: and you don't know if they've finished or not no no it's sort of lying no no it's well it's like me no you're fine I feel like when you finish a meal you're closing the door you know you're not leaving the door open to continue make your decision and finish and on that note thank you so much for coming over it has been so fantastic hearing your stories and I'm sure there's about a whole series worth of stories from you. I'm so impressed and inspired by you that you carry on just with this joie de vivre of just passion and creating and it's so exciting but also the formidable work that you've already produced so thank you so much for everything that you've given us and you continue to give us Arlene.

57:36I've loved it.

57:51Jessie Ware: Dame Arlene Phillips loved having her. What amazing stories. Such a delight. She was fantastic. I thought the food was really nice. I thought, yeah. No, I thought it was delicious. I thought the beans were exceptional The beans were fab And I thought that pudding was lovely Oh my god, that pudding So easy as well Where was that from? Ottolenghi, simple too Oh that was delicious So easy as well Did you make the granola? No, it's Ottolenghi's one You bought it? I bought it because I needed to buy the bloody Biber Salcassi thing So I was like, oh sorry, I may as well bring some Where did you buy it from?

58:37Jessie Ware: Delivery oh but where from what you yeah they had to schlep from the middle of London well I did pay for it so don't worry I know and it was extra because they were going further but whatever it was worth it because it's delicious fantastic granola that'll be gone by tomorrow but I'm sure there's a recipe for that granola no it's in that book as well he's got an everyday granola yeah anyway delicious you should go and get the book it's great delicious and Arlene Phillips just wonderful wonderful guest so lucky to have her I mean, how old is she? 83. 83. And she's still... Dancing. But not even just dancing.

59:15Jessie Ware: She's creating... She's creative. It's unbelievable what she's still doing and what she's already achieved. What I loved about her was her warmth and generosity. She just kind of sees the world in a very positive light and sees people positively. And it's kind of nice, isn't it? I really think she could have a biopic about her Yeah I saw it when she was in the dance studio and the person's like I want you to move to London So you're going to play her? I don't think I can play her And also, you know, meeting her husband on set Everything's like a movie When he told her it was her fault It's so good So the woman smashed her face Thank you today, Marlene Phillips for coming on Table Manners and we'll see you next week for more Table Manners

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