Finding Purpose: Why purpose is the answer to uncertainty and anxiety (w/ Arun Gupta) | from Fixable

0:00Hi listeners, it's Madhupe, the host of TED Business. On this show, we talk about the business of business and the why of it all. A sense of purpose is often at the heart of successful, impactful work. And these are the big questions that we're constantly asking on TED Business. How do you seek out meaningful work? How do you locate meaning in your work? What does the word purpose even mean? Well, I'm not the only one in the extended TED family asking these questions. Over on the podcast Fixable, leadership coaches Frances Fry and Ann Morris have done a four-part series on finding purpose, and I'm sharing each part of it with you today.

0:43I just know you guys are going to love it. So without further ado, Frances and Ann are going to take it from here.

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2:40Frances, we are coming to the end of our Purpose at Work series. I have surprised myself by how much I have enjoyed this. We've talked to some really interesting folks about what gets them out of bed in the morning and keeps them going in the face of setbacks and uncertainty. it has been super energizing to include all of these voices in a conversation I feel like you and I have been having with each other for like our whole lives. When people get more in touch with their purpose I don't think it's like an incremental improvement in their lives I think it is a dramatic improvement so I have been unexpectedly surprised at how helpful the series has been.

3:26Yeah. One of the things I realized coming into this episode is that I haven't officially asked you how purpose has operated in your life, at least not in front of our fixable audience. So let me ask for the record, how are you thinking about purpose these days, particularly when there's so much chaos and disruption and uncertainty in the world? It's not a small question. Well, my operations roots will show, I think, in my answer to this, which is I think about purpose in terms of the capacity of people, of other people. And how do I get them in touch with not only their full capacity, but how do we help them dramatically increase their capacity?

4:14And when I'm doing that, I don't even notice time. I don't notice effort. I don't notice anything. And so it's being in touch with the enhancing the capacity of others and then trying to let them live fully into it. First of all, that was beautiful and resonates in my experience of you. Does it feel more urgent for you given the state of the world or where you are in your own life? No, you know, we've said that we need more leaders. And leaders, fortunately, are not just at the top of the hierarchy. They're everywhere. We need more leaders unleashing what's possible in others. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to our guest today is that he, in kind of a similar way, is making the case that purpose is the answer to what so many people are feeling.

5:11in the year of our Lord, 2026.

5:19This is Fixable, a show where we take the problems at work that feel unfixable and prove that they're not. I'm Anne Morris. And I'm Frances Fry. Listeners, before we get to our interview today, I want to invite you to stick around after our conversation to hear our thoughts on our Purpose at Work series. Frances and I have really loved making the last five episodes and wanted to take a minute to reflect on what we've learned from all of our fantastic guests. So hang in there with us. And first, our guest today is Arun Gupta. Arun is a longtime investor and the CEO of the Noble Reach Foundation.

5:55He spent his career helping people find ways to serve something bigger than themselves. He lectures at Georgetown and Stanford, where he teaches the popular course, Valley Meets Mission. He's also the co-author of the new book, The Mission Generation. I am so excited for people to learn about this book. Yes, and join the movement that is the mission generation. Let's bring them in.

6:29Arun Gupta, welcome to Fixable. And thank you for having me. We're delighted you're here. We have been talking to a whole bunch of high profile people for a series about purpose at work. And Arun, we wanted to end with you because we think you're saying something really big and important about purpose. And I'm going to have the audacity to try to summarize it. And then you tell me how close we are to getting it right. Right. So what I think I hear you saying is that purpose is the answer to all of our fears and anxiety, which are at an all time high as a species right now. Is that in fact what you're saying?

7:13We'll start with the punchline and I'll work. How do I get there? But the short answer is yes, is what we're saying. Very exciting. And how we get there, though, is that what you're alluding to, you know, in the world that we're living in, where we've got so much change going on right now, right? And especially for this younger generation, as they look at their post-COVID, you see geopolitical conflict, you see environmental conflict, you see great power competition emerging, you see AI, you know, transforming jobs. That's a lot of swirl. That's a lot of history in a short period of time. And that swirl, it's not clear that that's going to change.

7:51going forward. We're going to be living in a world that's kind of constantly an accelerating change going on. The systems that we've built, however, Anne and Francis, to date, have been built for a more stable world. And so what we contend is that those old scripts were great for looking back, but they're not what we need looking forward. And especially when we start talking about career pathways, the pathways that our careers were built on were really around prestige markers, institutions that we want to be part of or job titles we want to have. Those are getting disrupted real time. And I think that's the anxiety that many people are feeling.

8:26What we contend is the stabilizing force then going forward is going to be purpose. It's going to be what problem do you care about? And that's what we need to be building our careers around, around those problems. And then more importantly, as things get disrupted, how do you navigate and create fluency around those problems across different institutions, across different sectors? And I think that's the transition that we're in right now. And so we argue that stability actually is the new risk. Like it's riskier to go do the stable thing. And yet that's what our systems have been built for because we as humans are wired to want stability and security over happiness.

9:02Yeah. And so your point seems to be that we now have to generate our own internal stability as opposed to outsourcing it to these now wobbly institutions and roles. It's not only our own stability, but our own sense of meaning and purpose. We've outsourced meaning and purpose to the institution. You tell me what the career pathway is, I'll go do it. And then hence we have shows like Severance making fun of that. Like we create this duplicitous lifestyle. We're now moving into a world where that contract is broken, where we can't expect the institution to be providing us stability. With that means that agency is falling back onto the individual.

9:43And while that can feel disconcerting to many, because it's the first time you're actually having to think about, like, what do I really want to go do? We contend also, though, that it can be very empowering once you get on the other side of it. Yeah, there's a whole bunch of agency in this approach to the world. Just to ground it for people listening, when you see somebody doing this well, what does it look like? You know, what it looks like is someone that has focused their career on a problem that they care about and then have moved across different sectors and solving it. That could be doing it as an entrepreneur.

10:15It could be doing it as an academic. It could be having worked in a large corporation. It could be working at an NGO. But they're stabilizing force around it as a certain issue that they care about. And those issues could change over time. But they're not, as a Neanderer would say, like, I need to be part of this institution because that gives me my identity. Let me take a skeptic's role on two pieces of this. So you are coming into this conversation as a man with Stanford, Georgetown, Harvard Business School, all these institutions attached to your name. for people listening who are like, sure, Mr.

10:50Gupta, like you're at a place in your life where you can dismiss these things as kind of icons of the past, but you also have the safety and security of having checked all these boxes. Yeah, no, I think that's an important thing to address. A few things have changed. You know, when I came out 30 years ago, it was a more stable environment. And those prestige markers could provide you that stability to allow you to go create those career pathways. I'm just contending in the world that we're in today, if I were coming out, and look, I've got two boys coming out of school. I've got a daughter that's a sophomore in high school.

11:25We're not directing them down a pathway that says, hey, go do X, Y, Z, because then here's how you're going to map out the next 20 years. We're recognizing and having those conversations that the world you're walking into is like, find the things that you care about. But look, the other thing in this is that when my dad had one job for 40 years, I had one career. That was the way I was raised. These kids going forward are going to have four to six careers going forward. That's the scaffolding that we're trying to bring to them. Like when I was coming out of school, I felt like I had to get on one conveyor belt and that conveyor belt was going to take me through for 30 years.

12:01What we're arguing today is that those days have gone. And coming in today, like the jobs that I'd go after thinking that they were stable, those are the exact jobs that people are getting disrupted with. And that's what's creating the anxiety because you have a group of people feel like I did all the right things and now I've gotten here and now those jobs are not materializing in the way I thought they should. And so your point is that the North Star in this environment is an internal sense of purpose and meaning. Yeah, but it's also aligning it not in isolation from being able to do well. Let me push on this a little bit.

12:41So why can't my purpose be to create the financial security that I didn't grow up with or to keep my family safe? I think sometimes these questions of the pursuit of wealth or the pursuit of prosperity get dismissed as this superficial, ego-driven drive that we often have. But often it comes from a place of security and safety. And I know a lot of people who find deep meaning in the challenge of creating a sense of safety that they didn't necessarily inherit. What you just described there is totally fine and is perfectly acceptable. It's going through that thinking of like, is this my purpose?

13:26What we're contending is a lot of folks just follow the herd. A lot of folks just follow the current. And they're externally motivated without doing that thinking. What you just articulated there is very thoughtful. There's a reason of why you're doing it. And so when we talk about purpose, it doesn't need to be, again, altruism. But it is a sense of being thoughtful about the why you're doing what you're doing. Right? What we're saying is the prestige markers, as they get disrupted, the only thing that's going to be stable then is, you understanding why you're doing what you're doing. When that disruption takes place, that why will be your stabilizing force.

14:01In fact, I say this in my class, like, hey, if you want to go do the traditional thing, go do it, but just know why you're doing it. Right? And so that's really the point. It's not about having judgment around my purpose is greater than your purpose. It's just about knowing what your purpose is. So I want to get into kind of the how of how to do this. Frances, anything you want to jump in with here? I've been at the Harvard Business School for, I think, three decades now. And in all three of those decades, we have been encouraging students with exactly what you're saying now, which is know why you're doing it.

14:37Don't just follow the herd. So what I'm trying to tease out in my mind, I believe there is something about this moment that makes it even more poignant, but I don't yet know what that is. Yeah. Frances, I'll take a shot at maybe trying to answer what's different about the moment we're in. And I do think it goes back to the conversation with Anne around just the confluence of events as creating this uncertainty and anxiousness. When it gets really unstable, like in the world that we're in right now, I think people reach out to others to want to be part of something bigger than. I think that's where we are right now.

15:13When I talk to young folks, there's a real resonance around like, I want to be part of something. I want to feel like I'm having some level of impact. In a way that I, pre-COVID, I was not seeing that, honestly, in the same students I was teaching. What's different about this moment is I think where students' heads are, or young folks are, is they're looking to embark on their careers. I think when I was graduating, there was a sense of like, your life had thirds. Your first third was you learn. Your second third was you took what you learned and you go earned. And then your last third is when you return, you give back.

15:47That was something you did at the end of your career. And I think what we're seeing as a disruptive force right now is that people are realizing this idea of like monetizing what I've learned, the shelf life of that has condensed. I can't go learn a skill and monetize it for 20 years. In fact, it's obsolete after one or two. But also the idea of purpose being something I do later is being pulled in. Arun, I'd love to get into some of the way you describe the how of this more entrepreneurial approach, which really resonated for me in the book. It has a very venture-infused kind of lean philosophy, and you're transferring that to the unit of a life or a career, which feels really right to me.

16:35Talk to us a little bit about this process, what it feels like, how you recommend people approach this. So one of the things that we talk about, you know, when you go around and ask folks, you know, what's your net worth? They're going to probably write down a number that's some probably summation of their savings account, investment portfolio, and real estate assets. And we define net worth in our society in a very financial way. So we shouldn't be surprised that our systems then are built around that and support that. And then how people make decisions, you know, feed off of that. And I saw this firsthand, you know, teaching at a business school where students would be making job decisions based on, you know, what the signing bonus was and the expected salaries were.

17:22And you'd say, look, close your laptop and let's talk about the big picture here. And so what we talk about are the hidden capitals. What are the other capitals that really matter? And we use capital intentionally because we believe, like financial capital, that if you invest in them early and consistently over time, not equally, but consistently, they will compound. And that compounding has a value to you. And so those other capitals that we talk about include mission capital, like finding impact and purpose, meaning ultimately, as I tell my students, you will have a reckoning. You can go so far without having any meaning.

18:00That could be five years, 20 years, or 30 years, but at some point, you're going to feel like hollow. And so identifying what that could be like. The second, you know, we talk about is learning capital. You know, not in the context of skills, but in the context of curiosity. What are the right questions to ask? You know, and in a world of AI, that's going to become incredibly important. Experiential capital. In a world where AI goes after IQ over EQ, you know, the experiences that you have, The diversity of experiences you have is what brings you unique human judgment to it. It's not going to be the skill that could get automated.

18:35Trust capital, the relationships you've built. Arguably in a world of AI, you know, trust capital will be incredibly more important. And then finally, health capital. One of the things we're writing about, our systems are currently set up for 20, 30-year careers. We're walking into a world where we're going to have 60-year careers. I mean, young folks are going to be living longer. So the idea of doing one thing for 60 years is also kind of a daunting activity. And again, when you say mission, I don't know that we've established this because the name of the book is Mission Generation. You're not talking about a single generation as we typically understand it.

19:10Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that, Anne. And we're absolutely not. When we talk about the mission generation, and we debated this, like we call it mission generations. But we talk about the mission generation not being about age, but about agency. It's a group of folks that really want to combine personal ambition and civic responsibility as they build their careers out. At any age, at any life stage. At any age. That can be early, mid. What we realized as we were writing it, it's the same questions, the same frameworks apply. They just manifest themselves differently. If you're 25, getting, starting your career, late 30s, early 40s, maybe two kids and a mortgage, or, you know, late 50s and about to be an empty nester, thinking about like what's the next 20 years look like.

19:51And so all of that can be part of the mission generation and the way we define it. All right. Once we find our mission, you suggest steps for turning purpose into action. You call it the mission flywheel. It starts with, you know, recognizing what are the problems that you care about? What are the things that give you energy that you light up? The second piece of it, and that ties to your mission capital. And hopefully over time, you've been able to accumulate something that gives you a sense of like, what are the things you care about? The next step then is reframing and thinking about what have I learned?

20:19Like, what skills have I built? I think the biggest thing many times for folks, especially in the mid and late career stage around identifying, you know, pivots, is this idea of like, I'm starting over again. Like, oh, do I really want to like, I've invested all this time here. Do I really want to start over again in a new space or sector? We haven't given language to all the accumulated experiences, skills, and people that you've built. You're really not starting all over again. Like, in some ways, you have a beginner's mindset, but you're applying a wealth of of accumulated capitals to bear in this new domain, right?

20:52To your point, you know, I think the piece that's very venture-y entrepreneurially is like you've got to run experiments. What's a good experiment in purpose and mission? Yeah. So, you know, look, in a world that's changing really rapidly, it's not good enough to just sit there and think about like, what do I care about? Because clarity doesn't bring action. Acting will bring you clarity. I really like your advice to be in motion, take action, reflect as you go, but keep moving. And I think that's a really powerful part of what you're saying. Yeah, but it can happen by, you know, whether it be a side hustle.

21:26It could happen by taking a new class of something that you care about. It could happen by volunteering on an issue that you care about. For me, it started with even guest lecturing at universities to think about if teaching is something that I care about. Then I went into, started teaching, and I thought, like, oh, maybe I want to be part of an institution. And then I sat through meetings with academics, and I was like, oh, this isn't me. So, like, I was able to find where in that construct where I would get energy from and what part of that was, like, energy that wasn't for me. And so it's those kinds of experiments that you can run.

21:59Once you identify that, you've run these experiments, you know what you want to double down on, then double down on it and resource the scale. And, you know, think about, like, how you sustain that over time.

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23:36people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

23:51I want to get into kind of some of the threats to this way of living. You call them forms of resistance. You've written that being stuck is not failure, which I think is a really important part to underline because I think there are points we can get stuck in this evolution. It's a signal. So what's the signal in being stuck? The signal in being stuck is that there's a gap growing between what you're doing and who you're becoming. And I say it in that context because it's who you're becoming that's creating the gap, not the decision you made five years ago or 10 years ago. I feel a lot of times when people feel stuck, they're like, oh God, I wish I hadn't done X or I wish I hadn't done Y.

24:34Now I'm stuck. and then they're left looking backwards and they're left not moving. When you think of it as a signal, it's saying like, hey, I'm just becoming someone different. You know, Carl Jung, as we talk about it, you know, it's called an individuation. I mean, there's terms for this, right? So it's not like we're inventing it. People talk about this. And this is just maturity and growing. Like, hey, look, maybe what I'm doing today was based on what people's expectations were of me. But like as I keep doing it, like I'm realizing like what I really care about is X. And that's just through a shared level of experiences, people I've met, things that I've done.

25:14And that's what we're trying to highlight, right? These emotions are data. Yeah, emotions are data, but also that like look forward, not backwards, right? I think there's a posture element to this as well. and that, you know, the intrinsic thing is to, as soon as you feel stuck is to say, why do I feel stuck and what decision led me here? Like I took the wrong road. And all we're saying is like, maybe you took the right road at the time and maybe now you're at a crossroads of saying like, you want to do something different and that's fine. And then think about like, how do you fill that gap? And so that's what we mean by that.

25:53Yeah, I love your framing. It's a gap between where you are and who you are becoming. So you mentioned forms of resistance as threats to this way of living around. So the first is is psychological resistance, which you define as the voice inside telling us that we're not ready or we don't belong. In your experience, kind of coaching young people, just starting off on their careers, how do you tell the difference between like healthy, clear-eyed self-awareness and psychological resistance? I'm not ready for the NBA. Because I'm not ready for the NBA. This is a big one. Look, I think part of the inner resistance that we talk about here is the notion of, am I prepared?

26:47Can I do this? And implicit in that is a level of self-awareness of what is it that I can do and what is it that I can't do. But I also think it's somewhat around how do I frame doing it. And I'll explain what I mean. I think many times we as individuals when we're making a decision like this think about like, well, if I do it and, you know, what if it doesn't work? What if it doesn't go right? And so we focus on what could go wrong with a decision. That's the inner resistance, like to focus in on the downside. And I think that's very natural. It's very human. But I also think we overestimate risk.

27:27Now think about what if it goes right? And this is where I think most people underestimate and spend the least amount of time is really thinking about what happens if it goes right. And if it goes right and you go like, I'm marginally better than where I am, it's probably not worth the risk. But if it could be transformative to where I am, why not? Yeah, I think that's all really good practical advice. OK, let's do relational resistance. So this is friends, families, loved ones telling you to slow it down or throwing flags that you're making the wrong choices. It often comes wrapped in genuine love and protectiveness.

28:09It's not always wrong. We have an 18-year-old kid we're launching into the world right now. Now, when I ask him to slow down or make good decisions or think carefully kind of about risk of reward of his decisions, if we take his perspective now, how does he handle how does he handle that input and also handle me and the other voices around him that are coming from such a well-meaning place? Having kids slightly older, this is hard. And it's hard as a parent, probably hardest as a parent, when you're thinking about your child because you're trying to protect them and you're trying to provide them stability.

28:53I think that the person getting the input needs to bring the folks giving the input into their thinking and bring them into their why. Why is it that you want to do it? What is it that you want to go do? Have them be part of the journey. Have them be part of the thinking around that. Yep. All right. So let's say I'm a manager listening and I want to bring more purpose and meaning to the work of my team. What advice do you have for me? I think the way you bring purpose doesn't need to be only in the outcome of the work that you do, right? It could be in the how you do your work during your coffee break, et cetera.

29:40Like, you know, ask if two of them want to just sit down and ask them about how they're doing. Like, peace. You know, take them out to lunch. You know, make your team around you feel better. Make them feel heard. Make them feel part of something. You know, let them into you with a sense of vulnerability. Because, you know, even though you're spending all this time with individuals, much of that time is alone. It's not really opening up and getting to know one another. So acts of kindness can go a long way. If you're a more senior person, you know, how you mentor folks. And back to the point that we were making, you know, like I do this with my team of trying to ask them, what are their aspirations?

30:20And then like, are there people in my networks that I can connect them with? And so that they could go have coffee with. To me, that's all a sense of purpose, right? Is the idea that we're all looking out for each other. Frances, I want to go back to the team question and ask you this because we have seen teams and organizations getting in touch with their noble purpose in an authentic way. Do you have any advice for people who hear that it resonates? They want to bring their team or organization closer to it. Just practically how you do that. Yeah, the word that comes to mind to me is co-production.

30:58So I want to make sure that my team, that they're really like satisfying the Thomas the Train useful engine, not towards profits, towards purpose. so that I can demonstrably see that I'm making, let's call it the customer or the client, better off. That's the first one is understanding. So in healthcare, am I helping make my patients healthier? So I think it's the agency, I like the word that you used, of being Thomas the Train useful. and it's also I mean in in my experience people have an unlimited amount of energy for doing things for others and a limited amount of energies for doing things for self so it's you know I find that the other distracted people don't burn out nearly as quickly as the self distracted people.

31:55And we see cautionary tales of organizations moving in the wrong direction. So the Toyota story that we have shared before, but it might be worth just revisiting. I think that's part of Boeing's journey over the last few decades of starting as, you know, and thriving as this purpose-driven organization and then kind of losing their way. Getting distracted by being what I would call self-distracted on profits. By the way, worst way to make profit is to get self-distracted on profit. Like profit needs to be a manifestation of something more noble if you want it to be ongoing. But I think if you can get people in touch with the other part of the distraction, it's going to solve a lot of these problems.

32:44I think it's in Arun's, you know, what problem are you on? I bet if we watched him have conversations with people, it would be solving problems for others, not yourself. Like without, without your saying it, I feel it as, as unsaid. And I think, so that, that to me is getting people other oriented. You know, when we watch our kids and kids our age, the kids, our kids age, they start with problems that they're facing. And honestly, it's where all the first internet companies came in. Right. And, And it's what's wrong with all of those companies is that they never stopped being self-distracted. But the ones with real purpose are the ones that are solving needs for others.

33:26And that's, I think, where it becomes pretty glorious. And it becomes glorious, Frances. I love the way you frame that in that I think what we're also finding is those firms are able to attract better talent. Oh, yeah. Because it's much more sustainable, right? Right. And in many of those things of solving problems for others aren't simple problems. And so you need these folks aligned for not like a two year quick flip, but like a seven to 10 year like, you know, product run. And they're there. Yeah. And Arun, to that point, I think this is your world. But the best venture capitalists approach these problems with that kind of patience and that kind of timeline.

34:07Like if we're taking a big enough swing, this isn't like a three to five year run. That's exactly right. Like if our ambition is big enough in terms of the worthiness and nobility of problem we're solving, then it looks a little bit different than the traditional venture model. If someone's listening and tomorrow they want to make their current job more purposeful, more meaningful, what's one step they can take tomorrow? I would really, on day one, really take an inventory of your capitals and just think of one thing on each of those that you can do differently. So on trust capital, what's one relationship that you can go reach out to?

34:47On health capital, what's one thing that you can invest in for yourself? Because self-care is important. On experiential capital, what's one thing that you can do to give yourself just a different experience, something that you haven't done before and get yourself out of your comfort zone? Learning capital, you know, like what's one question that you hadn't really pondered that you just want to think about, you know, to really get your curiosity going? And think about your mission capital. Like what's the one, you know, what's one group? What's one other that you want to impact, as Francis was just saying?

35:18You know, I think using that as a framework, I say one in each because I think all of those are important over time. Again, all of them aren't going to be moving in the same direction and the same quantity consistently. but I think it starts getting you moving in a more holistic manner. And those are all things that are totally within our control. It's a really nice part of it. Yeah, they're all within your control and they're all very human. Okay, finally, a question we ask all our guests. What are you currently fixated on outside of work? Oh, gosh. You know, outside of work right now, you know, I think it's really family, honestly.

35:56I feel like for my wife and I, we're in this new phase where we've got two boys that are now adulting. We've got a daughter that in two years will be going off to college. And so I think what I'm fixated on is it's enjoying this transition period. I'm thinking about what that looks like for us even going forward. It's one thing to be talking about it for others. But, you know, if I'm being honest, you know, we're celebrating our 30th anniversary this year. Congratulations. And so there's, you know, I think for me, there's a lot of that all coming together, you know, in August. And so I think that's where a lot of share of mind has been.

36:33Arun, what advice do you have for us? We have two boys who are starting to adult. What advice do you have for us? It's daunting. It is daunting. I think my daughter will be able to adult sooner than they will coming out of school. We have no comment.

36:52I'm shocked to hear you say that. Yeah. No, I don't. Look, I think the only advice I've started to really, you know, hold on to is just let them figure it out because they will. And it may take a bit of time, but they ultimately get there. The other thing, you know, with our kids, you know, I do say, like, you know, separate out what matters from the noise. and like the big decisions that you got to get right, like it's who you want to be with, you know, on the journey of life. Not like, oh, what job did I get here? Or what did I, you know, like, so focus on, make sure you get the big ones right and the noise stuff will kind of fall.

37:33Arun Gupta, thank you for coming on Fixable. Thank you for having me. This is a great conversation. I really enjoyed it.

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40:01Frances, we made it. All of our episodes of Purpose at Work are out into the world. I'm feeling a sense of achievement on this one. I want to do just a quick recap of who we talked to, and then I'd love to get into some of the lessons that you and I are together and separately taking away from these conversations. How does that sound? It sounds great. So we kicked it off talking to Molly Graham about the risk-reward of really pursuing a purpose-driven career. One of the things that is so remarkable about Molly is just her own tolerance for fear and uncertainty and not knowing the answer before she takes these really big and interesting swings.

40:53And, you know, one of the things I took away from that conversation is that this is going to require a stronger stomach than a more traditional path. Yeah. It will feel like we're jumping off cliffs a little bit more. So we have to build the resilience to do that and, you know, wear good clothes so that, you know, bumpers and the like. Yeah, we don't have to grow wings. No, no, no, no. But we do have to be able to survive a couple bumps along the way. A couple bumps along the way. A couple bumps. So then we talked to Emily, the recruiter, about many things, but also about not outsourcing your purpose entirely to work.

41:34You weren't able to join us for that conversation, but I know you listened to it word for word. I loved that episode so much. I feel like if I were looking for a job, it was just expert hands for guidance. And if I was the parent of someone looking for the job, really good insight into the job market today. And so just the practicality of it, but then also the spirituality of it. I don't even know what else to call it. That about where do you derive meaning? And, you know, she has a beautiful architecture of where meaning can come from. And spoiler, it's a stack of things, you know, and work is only one of them.

42:15And so if work is doing it, great. And if it's not, there are other ways also to do it. So it was really inside a very practical thing. It was how do you construct a life? And I was just deeply moved by the conversation that the two of you had. Then we got to talk to our old friend Jodi Cantor, which was such a fun reunion about the urgency of meaningful work. and then what it takes to go out there and not just find it, but create it. To be in touch with our agency in building our lives around that kind of meaning and impact. And of course, what an astonishing messenger she is for that. She is an aspiration for the agency that you can take and the can-do spirit.

43:07I loved how she not only has it, But she's really thinking hard about how to cultivate it in others. Mm hmm. Well, I had the privilege of going out to Vancouver for the TED Talk and talking with the amazing Yara Shahidi and her mom, Carrie Salter, about what a purpose driven, creative life looks and feels like. and I know this part of it was very resonant for you too, Frances, what it looks and feels like to bring your loved ones with you. I mean, it was so cool to talk to both of them and not just see and hear the story of their deep collaboration, but really, you know, be in the room and feel it.

43:55You know, what I really appreciated about that conversation is that we can bring our loved ones along in traditional way. You and I, like we work together. That's one way to do it. But we can also... AnneandFrancis.com. Right. AnneandFrancis.com. But we can also bring our loved ones along when we have very separate things that we do during the day. And I thought that was a very poignant message. Yeah. And of course, part of their story is that they did that informally. You know, They collaborated informally for a long time, playing distinct roles in the creative process, and then finally realized, oh, we could formalize this collaboration.

44:36We could start a production company. We could start a production company. I think not enough families work together. I know. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I just, I believe it. Yeah. Not enough loved ones work with one another. I think I have to endorse that. And finally, we just had the pleasure of talking to Arun Gupta and how purpose can create an internal stability, even when the world is feeling unstable and really guide a life and career. And I just love that he, you know, put words to that and underlined it because I think it's a message people really, really need to hear right now.

45:16So when we put all of these conversations together, I want to try to pull out a couple of meta lessons. And we'll just see if we get somewhere interesting here. My first one is from everyone we talk to, I heard some variant on the idea of paying attention to what brings you to life. so the the power of your own vitality as a metric to pay attention to as you kind of explore this idea of purpose and meaning what are you doing who are you talking to what are you experiencing what are you looking at where are you in the world when you feel most alive and that was very resonant for me. I always hear you say some version of, you know, if an anthropologist...

46:11That's exactly what I just wrote down. Yeah. Exactly what I just wrote down. If an anthropologist followed you around, what would they observe? And to your question, when would they observe you were at your most vital, your, you know, your vitality score? And actually, I like to know it for the highs and the lows. I think learning happens at the extremes, both extremes. And as you have coached me, you know, what are you seeing? What are you smelling? What are you doing? Who are you with? What are you hearing? All of it. But if you take that perspective and you're curious, not judgmental about all of it, you're just curious about narrating it, then you can bring intentionality.

46:56Then everything is fixable. That's like our premise. And so, but golly, do you need an accurate diagnosis before you go in and change things? And so have your inner anthropologist help you with an accurate diagnosis and pay deep attention to the extremes. So, Frances, I'm professionally obligated to ask, what are you doing, thinking, feeling, eating, experiencing when you feel most alive? I feel most alive when I am pursuing, so cousin of purpose, when I am pursuing the act of democratizing access to education. And I think I would gnaw off a limb to do that. So I've spent my career providing access to education to a few people.

47:48And what now brings me alive is to keep doing it for the few, but to do it for many, many more people. And so the anthropologist would see a spike when I'm in front of thousands, whether it's online or in very large classrooms, trying to unleash the capacity of people, try to both build the capabilities of people and to unleash them in the world. Now, the ways in which I do it and the urgency with which I do it is heightened now. I have a deep sense of time and a deep appreciation of time. As you know, the last year has been, I've been on my own health care, my own health journey. I'm recovering from cancer.

48:38I'm fine. Everybody went through the gruesome parts of the treatment. I'm now on the lovely parts of the treatment, but it really has left me with, I don't want to waste time. I don't want to waste time. And so I feel more directness and more urgency in getting after it. And so if there's any listeners, I would say, don't wait to the aftermath of a health diagnosis to get after it. To urgently, to get after it. I think to the extent that you can marshal the urgency of what you're supposed to be doing. And it's so clear I'm supposed to be removing the obstacles that I see as pebbles and people experience as boulders.

49:25And my job is to point them out and help them sweep them away. The irony is I've been a teacher for three decades and I feel like I now understand what it means to be a teacher. And I that's what I, you know, I could do anything I want. That's what I choose to do. And that means try to serve as an inflection point in people's lives. What's really interesting about this conversation is where you started in describing your purpose has evolved into the language I would use to describe my own purpose. Almost exactly. But I feel like we are very different people on overlapping, but sometimes parallel mission.

50:12The language that our listeners have heard in this series and that I think is most resonant for me now is to play a catalytic role in the evolution of someone else. Yeah. Here's where I would say we're different. I have a max 15 minutes one-on-one with somebody. One time, 15 minutes. Hope it works. Otherwise, I have a strict one-to-many philosophy. You, yes, you can do one to many, but you're just getting started in the 15 minutes. Like you can do the layers and layers of intimacy. So I'm sweeping away the pebbles that they're misperceiving as boulders. You are changing the wiring. I think we probably, we appreciate each other so much because we can see what one another does.

51:04That's very gracious framing. It brings me to another lesson on my list of lessons from these conversations, Frances, which is bring other people with you. Do not attempt this alone. You know, Jodi's astonishing career has involved deep collaboration with other people. There's mentorship from her grandmother. You know, Yara and Carrie just kind of revealed it in their own deep collaboration. But there's a piece to this that is about the social creatures that we are. And also like what's possible in terms of realizing our purpose and ambition and the possibility of impact just goes up exponentially when we go together.

51:58I love it. And it is a learning by doing sport to get better at it. In the beginning, expect the collaboration to not only not be one plus one is 10, one plus one might be zero in the beginning as you're learning it. Because collaboration, I think it's a skill that we can learn, but it's not a skill we appreciate. We just kind of think, oh, it worked because of magic or not. I don't believe that. I actually think we can be great collaborators, but we haven't been given the secret memo on how to learn how to do it. So I would say give grace in the early stages of collaboration. You know, you and I have grown into being magnificent collaborators, but it was, I don't know if you remember back in the day, I was not a very fun person to collaborate with.

52:49I do remember back in the day. I think I remember that moment well, because I said to you, I cannot collaborate under these conditions. I remember this vividly. Totally visceral. I go back to the exact same inflection point. And because it was at that point where I realized, I just thought collaborate, it either was or wasn't. And at that point, I was like, oh, it's a skill and I suck at it. But I'm going to now, I vow to now learn how to get better at it. beautiful all right I'll give you my last one and you know Molly got us started on this but this idea that our tolerance for risk uncertainty and instability is a major factor in our ability to do this and then for me what it what it motivated is to bring some of that beautiful curiosity to those questions of how do we define safety?

53:50How do we define security? What is it that we think we need? What is it that we actually need? Security is a core human need, but we default to these things that I think we learn at a very young age that do not necessarily serve us into adulthood and middle age and stages beyond. And so the power of really interrogating it and understanding it and bringing that stuff to the surface as part of this search for meaning and impact and mission, to me, they're very intertwined. And then I think so many people we talked to, for me, Jodi was the one who most directly really challenge that just back to our anthropologists just looking at like our own definition of safety with clear eyes so we understand how it's operating in our lives and how it may be getting in the way of of this variable that creates so much meaning and vitality in a life.

55:02Without dealing with the safety stuff, you can't really lean in to some of these ideas. You know, as someone who has, in my history, I've had too much safety and security, like an overabundance, so I was too cautious. And I've had too little safety and security. And so I feel like I have an appreciation for both sides of it. But wow, is it good to interrogate and take action And a surplus of safety and security is not actually a very good thing. And a deficiency is for sure not a good thing. And we go about closing those gaps very differently. All right, Frances, we're going to leave it here. We had a great time.

55:45We hope you, our listeners, also enjoyed this. We're going to do another series in the fall on power and influence. And if you're wondering, will all of our series begin with the letter P? If I have any say in it, they will. Just soothes me.

56:03My wife's brain is a pattern-seeking machine. Indeed it is. And you love a good alliteration. So from now on, all series shall begin with the letter P. There it is. You heard it here first. Thanks, everyone. If you're enjoying this show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

56:35Fixable is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris. And me, Frances Frye. This episode was produced by Trina Menino. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloresso, and Roxanne Hilash. Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard.

57:10This episode is sponsored by Toyota. There's something powerful about momentum, that feeling when things are moving forward, when you're not stuck, you're not waiting, you're just going. That's true in life, and it's true in how we move through the world. Toyota's new all-electric vehicles are built to support that kind of momentum, Whether it's the quick acceleration of the CHR, the versatility of the BZ, or the capability of the BZ woodland. And with access to a growing network of chargers, including Tesla superchargers, it's designed to keep you moving, not slowing you down. Because capability isn't just about power.

57:43It's about removing friction. Learn more at Toyota.com, the new all-electric family. Toyota, let's go places. Hey, this is Elise Hu, host of TED Talks Daily. This episode is supported in part by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast, or wherever you listen.

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