Unlocking Your Power at Work: Why you underestimate your own power with Deborah Gruenfeld

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2:10If you listen to Ted Business for conversations about leadership, navigating change, and unlocking innovation, I have another show for your rotation. It's called Founders Mentality, the CEO Sessions. It gets into the real decisions behind some of today's leading executives and companies. Not just what a CEO should do, but who a CEO has to become to do it. In their recent episode with Laura Burrow, Group CEO of The Economist Group, you hear how she walked into a divided organization and a transformation project that had already cost the company millions and made the call to scrap it. Instead, she pushed for a new approach, one that could fund itself and bring the business back together.

3:00She and host Jimmy Allen break down that choice, how customer data reshaped the company's priorities, and how The Economist is thinking about transformation now in the age of AI. Follow Founders Mentality, the CEO sessions from Bain & Company, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey listeners, we're dropping another playlist this month, and this one is a new series from our friends over at Fixable. It's all about how to unlock your power at work. And if you're looking over your shoulder and thinking, power? Me? Well then, yeah, this series is exactly for you. Anne, Frances, and their esteemed panel of guests talk through all the ways you might be underestimating your own power.

3:47And you may be surprised at what they have to say. This playlist is a primer on how to get what you want, how to feel financially empowered, and how to empower others. I'm excited for you to listen. Anne and Frances are going to take it from here.

4:09Chickens are very hierarchical. I don't know if you know this. And people have studied higher. Yeah. Scandalous. Pecking order comes from chickens. And there are also studies that show that when there is a clear hierarchy within a group of chickens, they produce more eggs. The same is true in organizations, if you think about it, because when there's not a clear hierarchy, there's a lot of energy and resources being channeled toward haggling, jockeying for position, chasing one chicken away from the food because it's not their turn. You know, so I think the same thing applies to individuals.

4:53This is Fixable, a show where we take the problems at work that feel unfixable and prove to us all that they are not. I'm Anne Morris. And I'm Frances Fry. We are back with another installment of Unlocking Your Power at Work. Today, we are demystifying how power actually works at work. We like to think we're not that sensitive to status and hierarchy, but the human animal is sending and reacting to power signals all day long, trying to figure out who's in charge and where we fit, often without even realizing it. Yeah, it feels like power is the hidden software that's operating just beneath the surface in all of our interactions.

5:36I agree totally. I feel like it's a huge factor in our experience of work, and yet it's this strangely forbidden topic. So we're going to try to bring it into the light today and talk about how power actually works, how to identify and work with your true power in any situation, how to figure out which power levers to use depending on your goals. And I'm guessing that the rules aren't like totally simple. Well, there would be no point in making this episode. They're not simple, but they are learnable. And we have the perfect expert to teach us how this all works. I am talking about the wonderful Deborah Grunfeld.

6:16She's a professor at Stanford University, a social and organizational psychologist who studies the psychology of power and powerlessness. Deborah is also the author of the 2020 book, Acting with Power, which is also the name of her wildly popular course. One of the things I'm really excited about for this episode is that Deborah shares our belief that most of us have more power than we think we do. Yeah. And the thing about Debra is she's a real academic. You get to say that. I don't get to say that. But she really is. No, because she not only does all of the research and all of the cerebral stuff, she also does amazing experiments that are just clever enough that it breaks open insight.

7:03Like my favorite experiment that Debra has ever done, I affectionately refer to as more cookies, more crumbs, which is intriguing. Say more. If you bring in a plate of cookies and randomly assigned to a group of people to be the leader, like randomly assign them a position of power, that person will eat more cookies and leave more crumbs. Just the random assignment. And it's just as we all suspected. I know, it just gets to the essence of it. And that, to me, is Deborah Grunfeld, like super insightful, super clever and makes it accessible to the rest of us. All right. Well, I cannot wait. Let's let's bring her in.

7:46Deb Grunfeld, welcome to Fixable. Thank you so much. It's a thrill for me to be here with you. The subtitle of your terrific book, Acting with Power, is Why We Are More Power Than We Believe. So let's start there. Why do we tend to underestimate our power? We come into the world fairly helpless with needs. We need to figure out who's going to help us with things. We need to figure out who's going to protect us. And I think that feeling for most of us never really goes away. And what we know from research on power and perception in social context is that attention follows power. So we're all looking for the person in the room who has control of the rest of our fates.

8:36And we tend to associate power, I think, for those reasons with other people. We think of it as something that exists only in other people. And it's very hard, I think, for those of us in positions of power, especially to be able to see ourselves through others' eyes. because we don't have feelings about our own power. We only have, I think, the feelings about our own insecurities and our own needs tend to be stronger. So I've heard you tell a story about working for a PR executive who was representing Jan Weiner, the famous Rolling Stone editor. And it was one of your first vivid reactions to power in the workplace.

9:19So take us through that story. Sure. So, yeah, I mean, the story is that this was before I was in graduate school. I worked for a brief period as a writer and journalist and a public relations consultant. And Jan Wenner was one of the clients of the woman that I went to work for. And we had a meeting with him in his office at Rolling Stone. I believe it was in the morning. And she brought me with her. And it was a very exciting day. in the life of a young professional. My eyes were like gagoon, you know. And we started to chat with him. He was lovely. And while we were talking, he reached over to the side of his desk and opened up a small refrigerator and took out a bottle of vodka and a bag with sliced onions is the way I remember it.

10:15He just took out the baggie and he took shots right out of the bottle and, you know, ate raw onions while we were chatting. And, you know, I can imagine like fly on the wall what I must have looked like. I'm looking at my boss, like what's happening right now? But like I say, she didn't react. He didn't offer to share anything with us. I mean, it's just, you know, it was unlike any experience I'd had before. And yeah, and then later when, you know, my colleagues and I started to talk about this idea of power being kind of a source of disinhibition, that story came back to me as a kind of a very vivid example.

10:59In the modern workplace, at least in the U.S. in 2026, we tend to think of hierarchy and power differences as a bad thing. But you make the point that not only do we need them, We also often crave them. Hierarchy allows us to get things done as a group, and it also makes us feel more secure. So do we just need to own this instinct? I think the most important thing is just to accept the reality that hierarchy is a fact of life and it exists everywhere. And when we pretend that it's not there or we pretend there aren't good reasons for it, we get in a lot of trouble. So the first thing I think is just accepting that, you know, if you observe groups organizing themselves, pretty much regardless of the situation, one of the first things they'll do is form a hierarchy.

11:59They'll come to an agreement about who's in charge, who has more influence, who's following, who's helping others. And it's a way of creating rapport and security because once everybody understands their place, they know what the script is. They feel like they belong and like they're part of things. We're obviously not having this as a explicit conversation. So what does this conversation look like? Most of it happens through body language. Some of it happens also through props and theater costumes, who's sitting where, whose turf we're on, who acts as though shared resources belong more to them than other people.

12:50so it's yeah i mean it's a lot of non-verbal signaling i would say you know in the same ways that animals when they're forming hierarchies um rarely fight about things but they just kind of remind one another who's in charge who gets to eat first um who's acting out of place you know, who's violating the norms. A little nip here. A little nip there. A little nip here. A little nip there. Exactly. We have chickens at home. Chickens are very hierarchical. I don't know if you know this. And people have studied higher. Yeah. So pecking order comes from chickens. And there are also studies that show that when there is a clear hierarchy within a group of chickens, they produce more eggs.

13:43The same is true in organizations, if you think about it, because when there's not a clear hierarchy, there's a lot of energy and resources being channeled toward haggling, jockeying for position, chasing one chicken away from the food because it's not their turn. So I think the same thing applies to individuals. And you don't want to overstate it, people in positions of power do take advantage of their position because they forget it's not just for their own personal advantage. Power is a part of a system. A hierarchy is a way of organizing and coordinating cooperation within groups. It actually helps avoid violence.

14:31I'm blown away by this in so many ways, but I have more cookies, more crumbs, more eggs. But also more eggs. Also more eggs at the system level, more eggs. I love that so very much. And having, I see this in dogs with a pack leader, right? That you can, it's chaos that will fill the allotted amount of energy. And when there's a pack leader, it just, it's so calm. Yeah, that's right. These invisible structures are actually quite helpful. And you called this form of acceptance grace, which is such a powerful word choice. Why did you choose that word? And am I characterizing where you are on this correctly?

15:20I think, you know, I spent a lot of time in my career studying power, documenting how to use power badly, you know, how power gets used badly and trying to understand why that happens. And the upshot is really that when people are using power to gain and maintain personal advantage over others, they're kind of missing the point that it's a responsibility. It's an outcome of a set of relationships. You don't just walk around with power. You know, when other people need you more than you need them, you have power. It's not something and it's not something you can carry from one situation to another either.

15:59It depends very much on your relationships with other people. So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to categorize or name the alternative. You know, if we're not fighting to maintain the upper hand at every opportunity, and if we're not feeling the need to demonstrate our power at every opportunity, what's kind of the alternative? And I don't know, grace came to me, I guess, in thinking about people in positions of power who are very intentional about when not to use it. Grace in particular is known among people who study it as a kind of mindset that is characterized by this notion of acceptance.

16:48So in some contexts, it's self-acceptance, it's comfort with your own power and authority. It's the ability to find a part of yourself that can put your insecurity in a corner and show up as the person in charge for the benefit of other people. These are just accepting realities that make you uncomfortable, but need to be accepted in order for the group to thrive. Sometimes grace is associated with tolerance and acceptance of other people, unconditional acceptance of other people. And then sometimes, you know, it's associated with this physical way of moving through space and time. that's characterized by lightness and fluidities.

17:32Beautiful. In Christian theology, the idea of grace is very much related with unearned love. And I think there's something, there's some connection that I can't find the poetry for, but something about not having to fight for this thing all the time. That's right. I mean, in the book, I described it as this is before the idea of grace came into my head. I described it as benevolence, which is I think what you're describing, which is just when you're in a position of power. You should recognize and be grateful for the gifts and abundance that you have. And this should make you very generous, extremely generous, open, trusting, not needing to control things.

18:26I mean, you know, if you watch a silverback ape playing with other, you know, in their troop, I don't know what a troop of gorillas is called. If you watch them, they're kind of lying around eating bananas with their bodies open, all their private parts out. They have no fear. Nothing bad is going to happen to them, in part because no one will let anything bad happen. Because they're a silverback. That's exactly right. And it's not just that people are afraid of the silverback. If you read these amazing books on, you know, there's Franz De Waal's book on chimpanzee politics, where he described in great detail how the alpha chimp in this in this troop that he was following gained its position and then lost his position based on the coalition of three female chimps that elevated the alpha, defended the alpha against attackers and chimps.

19:25challengers. And then when the alpha lost value to them, ran the guy out and brought someone else in. And I think this is, again, it's something that we think - This is everybody's fear, Seb. This is everybody's fear. Listen, fellas, a little grace. This is just how the world works. I just think we really miss the boat when we don't understand that power is a responsibility and that it depends on your relationships with other people, you can maintain the upper hand through fear and force for a time. But that shit runs out. I'm not the academic on the call, so I'm just going to summarize it in the language of the people.

20:07I think that was perfect.

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21:18Okay, now that we have a better understanding of how power works, let's get into how we use it, how we perform it. So a couple of things I just want to share with you because they may turn out to be useful. So in, you know, in the language of like acting with power, I talk about the things that people can do to play their power up if they need to be more dominant, more authoritative. And I talk about the things people can do to play their power down. almost everyone who comes into my classes or who reaches out to me for advice is worried about having more power more dominance being taken more seriously more gravitas once we've worked things through what they tell me later is that the most valuable thing was understanding the power of giving power away of plowing playing your power down and what people find when they leave and try to use these things is that that's a stealth tactic, actually, that the ability to disarm other people by showing vulnerability, by showing others respect, by building trust, by letting other people know you're in their corner and you want them to be successful, it just opens doors that are not open when you're coming at things from the point of view of control.

22:34All right. So we're going to come back to this. We're going to, we're going going to go in the order that people, including your students, can come to this subject. So let's start with, I want to power up. I'm nervous about giving a presentation or I'm walking in the room and I'm the only X in a room full of Ys. Like there's lots of reasons why we might want to power up. Tell us how to do that, Professor. So being the only person, the only person who, let's say the only woman, the only person of color, the only person from your country walking into a room can feel very lonely. It can make you feel very insecure and like you're going to be underestimated.

23:14Oprah Winfrey has a great tactic for this. I don't know if you've heard her talk about it before. She describes spending time before going into a room like that, calling to mind all of the women and people of color who have walked into rooms like this before her. And she imagines that they're with her when she goes in. So she doesn't go in as one person. She goes in as part of an army. So she's not alone in them. Oh, I love that one. Yeah. So that's a mindset thing. On a more tactical level, if you're looking for ways to communicate gravitas and authority and be taken seriously. The general principle is to focus on taking space.

24:00So taking more space. So physical expansiveness is something that I think a lot of people know about there, the power moves that Amy Cuddy and others have written about. Yeah. So I think what's lost in some of how that's understood is just recognizing that it's not like necessarily using your body in an intimidating way, but it's being open, physically open, open chest. It signals relaxation and that communicates comfort with yourself and comfort with your circumstances. So physical expansiveness is great. Slowing down is very important when we rush. Part of what we're communicating is that the things we're saying aren't worth the time we're taking.

24:48So speaking more slowly, also moving more slowly, entering a room without being in a rush, giving yourself the time to sit down in your chair and put your things down and settle in before you start speaking. Just being comfortable owning that time is a great way of communicating that you're at home and you own the space and you own the time. So taking your time is really important. I often talk with people about using their arms and hands and how they use their arms and hands. So when we allow our limbs to leave our body, it's a signal that we have weapons. We have tools of agency and it communicates a very different type of energy than sitting with your hands folded in your lap.

25:43So there are a lot of great examples of hand things. You know, people ask me often, what should I do when I'm being interrupted in a room? I think the natural instinct is people will sometimes try to raise their voice to like win that context. And I often advise people to just hold up a finger. Oh, you just changed your marriage. Oh, my God. I interrupt all the time as a sign of affectionate enthusiasm. You're excited. You're excited. This happens a lot. But I would respond to this immediately. We're taking this for a test drive today. So what's fun on this call is I think Frances and I move in terms of power signaling.

26:26We move through the world in very different ways. So this is going to be fun to play with a little bit. Deb, before we do that, tell us about the invisible headdress. Because when I heard this, it was immediately helpful to me. Yeah. We talk about this idea of going into a room where it's important to be viewed as the person in charge and the idea of imagining that you're putting on a headdress before you go in. So like a big, heavy, like a crown. You know, I have images in my slide decks of like Las Vegas showgirls, you know, the biggest, the biggest, heaviest headdress you can imagine. And if you imagine what that feels like, it changes your posture immediately.

27:12So your shoulders drop down, your chest expands, your head has to stay still and centered between your shoulders. And you have to carry your head with your chin tilted just slightly up. Yeah. So again, it's just a cue to put on your headdress before you go in. All right. We're going to talk about powering down now, which because some of the stuff is counterintuitive, including why to do it. You you've you mentioned very helpful for building rapport. And very tactical advice you give is if you want to make a positive impression in a new situation, signal that you're an equal but not a threat. There are a lot of ways to do this.

27:58You know, there tends to be very subtle negotiations around it. One has to do with who smiles first. So smiling is an act of deference. It's a way of meeting the person at their level, but showing eagerness as opposed to reticence. You can also think, you know, there are interesting dynamics with eye contact. So we know from research that a signal of power is to hold eye contact a little longer than normal when speaking to someone, but when being spoken to, to look away. So the idea is you're, yeah. So good. And so the opposite applies for powering down, which is to be careful about how direct your eye contact is when speaking to someone.

28:53So you can look down and look away. We're narrowing in on my problem. Perfect. But to keep your attention very wrapped when being spoken to. Another really simple thing that people can do to like just stay slightly under someone else in a situation like this is to stand in a way that takes your body off of the square. So if you think of dominance as using your body in a way that reminds people of all the weapons you have and all the things you could be using, Playing your power down involves, you know, it could be like shifting your weight onto one hip, for example. So you put a little curve in your body or instead of standing squarely in front of someone, could be taking a step backward, could be turning a little bit to the side.

29:50A trapezoid. Exactly. Just a little bit to the side. And, you know, there's an interesting example of playing power down as a demonstration of how useful this can be. I was working with a student once who was a former Marine, wonderful person, very physically intimidating. I had a group of employees that were really afraid of him and couldn't figure out how to break through that. They just he couldn't get them to really talk to him and share all the information that he needed, let him know how things were going and share mistakes and all that. So we were in a class where he was kind of role playing over and over again, walking into a room with someone in a situation like this.

30:31And we were experimenting with different things. The thing that ended up finally working, I mean, his initial instinct was to was to pull up a chair as close as he could get and lean in and grab her hands and say, how's it going? You know what I mean? I'm already afraid. I'm already afraid. Right. You can see how it comes from such a beautiful place. And it's just so overwhelming. Right. And also without realizing it, like a violation of so many boundaries. It's just it's not raw onions and vodka, but it's like, yeah, it's directionally that. It's like who chooses who gets to touch someone else, who chooses who gets to move the furniture closer, you know, all those little things.

31:13So we found that when he came in and sat next to her. It changed everything. so this is that point of being off the square that somehow there wasn't a sense of him being physically imposing he was kind of with her yeah um and because he was sitting sideways he also had to kind of cross his legs and shift his shoulders and um it just completely relaxed her felt much less intimidating so this idea of getting physically off the square is a really really powerful one. I've seen people do this also, like temporarily deferring power, like in a brainstorming situation to, you know, to get more information or to get better ideas.

32:00I mean, you just reminded me of a case that I encountered in advising. There were a group of venture capitalists that I've done some work with who were struggling to get the junior investors to speak up in meetings and share their ideas. And it was very frustrating for the senior people because they had chosen, you know, handpicked these incredibly intelligent people with so much information about what's really going on close to the ground in these industries that are just emerging, and they couldn't get them to really speak. And we see versions of this all the time. All the time. Yeah, it happens everywhere.

32:37And, you know, from this point of view, it was very, very interesting. You know, they had talked about like calling on people or letting them speak first. All those things are nice. What I suggested was, you know, when I'm watching the senior people at this table, it's a little bit like what you described with Francis interrupting. What I see is people who are dying to jump in. They're just sitting in a way with energy, like at the starting block of a race. Coiled. Exactly. Coiled. You know, arms way out on the table. You know, and again, it's they're excited they can't wait i said you know just try push scooting your chair back from the table crossing your legs and putting your hand in your lap come on have you ever done that honey yeah not yet but i'm gonna today

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35:03Okay, we'd love to throw some scenarios and listener questions at you. Let's start with our 24-year-old from Chicago. My name is Celine. I started working at a financial services startup a few years ago and today run our operations, which involves being in charge and leading some huge technology and process improvements. As a first-time leader, I don't always feel like I have enough experience or education to help me do the best in my job. What's your advice on how to make the case for new, more efficient processes to coworkers who have significantly more experience in the industry than I do and are used to doing things their own way?

35:43So, Deb, we hear a version of this a lot, which is people who have formal power on paper, but don't yet feel powerful and confident in their roles. Often, you know, first time managers or they're reporting to people who have more experience or suddenly they've been elevated over their peers. What advice do you have for people in those situations? First is to lean into the reality that they have more experience than you do and indicate your comfort with that by asking them for time to explain to you everything they think you need to know. So it has a couple of advantages. One is that it shows respect.

36:25It shows acknowledgement of the things they know that you may not know yet. And it also gives you the opportunity to get up to speed before you have to start asking people to do things a new way. So I think that's it's not intuitive. I think it's it's a win all around. It's it's gaining respect by giving respect. Like until you give that respect, that person is not going to defer to your authority. They're going to fight you on it. Absolutely. Yeah. Again, it's, you know, this notion of like acceptance of reality as it is. just comfort with the fact that I've been put in this position. It wasn't my decision.

37:03Here we are. Let's just acknowledge the fact that I'm in this position and you have all the experience. So let's have a conversation, see if we can figure out how to make one another successful. All right. Let me throw you, let me throw another scenario at you. So So what's your advice to someone who wanted the top dog role, got it, but now feels out over their skis just directionally? They're feeling a tremendous amount of performance anxiety now that they're finally in the seat. What general coaching would you give them on moving through and metabolizing those thoughts and feelings? it's probably going to sound similar i think the thing that's very challenging in situations like that is the desire to prove yourself and i think it's the wrong instinct the better instinct is to just do nothing you know it's just um listen pay attention get comfortable with the fact that you're in a new position and don't try too hard to do too many things too quickly it's not what comes to most people instinctively.

38:20But a lot of the mistakes people make come from trying to prove yourself to get through your own insecurities about whether people think you can handle the job. And you make mistakes because it takes time to grow into these roles. So yeah, slow down. Again, it's a power move, actually. Just slow down. Don't feel like you You need to have the final word on every decision. Take your time. Watch and learn. Beyond the workplace, you have studied power dynamics within marriages and long-term partnerships. What have you learned from looking at how power works in these dynamics and in these non-traditional spaces that you didn't learn in the workplace?

39:09Let's see. Well, one of the most interesting things I think is along this theme of getting comfortable with the idea that there is power and hierarchy in all relationships is the idea of like an equal marriage is maybe not really. A myth. Maybe unrealistic. realistic, but I think the closest we get to equality in a marriage is this trade-off of power across domains. So you can think of it that way. I'm not sure hierarchy ever goes away. You still, it's still nice in a marriage to have agreement about who the decision maker is in certain domains, who the expert is, who the decision maker is, you know, who cares more about this versus the other person.

40:07Because if you don't have that agreement, you're constantly haggling over everything. Part of what keeps things peaceful is just knowing when to give the power away and trust that at other times, in other situations, it will be your turn to be in charge. I think this is how good marriages work. I mean, I hesitate to put myself out there as a marriage expert. But and I feel like this is true even in workplace relationships where there are formal power differences that there's give and take. That's part of what makes the relationship work. And will say to me often, and I believe we have a great marriage, at least it's great for me.

40:50The inside of my ring says I'm a lucky shit. I get a vote, but not an equal vote. I actually think that's one of the keys to our successful marriage. Yeah, you get a vote, but it's not a democracy. I think I forget the phrase. Yeah. Yeah. I love this, though. And you know what? It's true in workplace relationships, too, that, you know, with power, it often feels risky to let other people tell you what they want, as though you're going to have to do something with that. But again, it's just you. It's part Part of what makes the relationship consensual is the person with less power knowing that their point of view is at least being considered.

41:33It's part of the conversation. Yeah. So, Frances, correct me if I'm not, if you disagree with this observation, but I feel like, and first of all, listeners, for the record, I also believe I'm in an excellent marriage and that things are good. Um, I experience you moving through many spaces out in the world, uh, signaling a lot of power. Yeah. Not always at airport security. But, you know, like, you know, you headdress is on, you're taking your time, no extraneous movements. And then you come into the home and you signal that you would like no power. Absolutely. And so I know these aren't accurate terms, but like alpha in the wild and then aggressively beta as soon as you walk through the door.

42:35That's amazing. It sounds like a dream. It sounds like a dream. We have never spoken of this arrangement. but we have never spoken and I'm not sure anyone else is going to hear it but for sure it's perfect yeah so the first thing is you know I would agree with Anne's characterization of you and I don't know that I've ever encountered anyone who is as clear as you are and I find it incredible and it is very very powerful it's like you're there's no hesitation there's no wishy-washy there's no wind up to the point you know it's just like it's right there for you and I just love that are you aware that this is how you are?

43:15And how are you feeling inside? So does it fit with you that you kind of feel powerless too or not? No. So I don't often feel powerless. I will say on the clarity point, my first draft is my best draft. I am very confident in the first thought that comes to mind. And I also teach people how to understand something deeply and describe it simply. It's a gift, really. I admire it so much. So I think Deb's observation of you is 100%. In this conversation, I'm trying to work through my own power signals and relationship with power. It has been my experience. I've been a CEO. I've been in that top dog slot.

43:58It was, I was fine with it. I love being out in the world. I love being Robin to Francis's Batman. Back to where we started this conversation. the the this creates no friction for me like where am I who's in charge how am I relative to like zero friction which I think has given me psychic freedom of movement that I just I don't feel like some of the people to my right and left are enjoying no it's fun to be in charge it's really fun not to be in charge. And I don't attribute any meaning, any deep meaning to either one. I think this is how it feels to be comfortable with yourself. So congratulations.

44:49You know what I mean? And there's, you know, there's, there's an element of maturity in it too. And I think, you know, we, we, we all talk to a lot of people who are just kind of getting there, but yeah, I mean, that's amazing. That's the ideal. It frees you as a leader to be intentional and do whatever you have to do in order to have the impact that you want to have. You know what I mean? And I think power is a tool and it's a context. For me, thinking of it as a goal is a little misguided. it's obviously a goal for a lot of people but I think the important thing most of what most of us care about is impact and most of us care about is respect and we care about trust and so what really matters is being clear on your intention and then being able to show up in a way that gets you closer to what it is you're trying to accomplish I think worrying about power can be a real distraction Deb what's one thing our listeners can do tomorrow to start using the power they have more skillfully.

45:51Recognize that your power is a part you play in someone else's story. Your feelings don't have that much to do with it. Think about your responsibilities to other people and try to do right by them. I got goosebumps. It's like quite literally, I got goosebumps when you said that. Your power is the part you play in someone else's story. That is good stuff. Great. And an excellent to-do list. I tried. An excellent to-do list. We have one final question we ask our listeners, which is, what's one thing you are fixated on right now outside of work? I am doing drop-in acapella singing, and I'm obsessed.

46:40What's the drop-in part? The drop-in part is that nobody auditions and there's no performance. So it's just people who like to sing, who are looking for a community and want to engage in like an art that's been an important part of their lives. We get together at different venues across the Bay Area. I'm on the lists now. We find out what the song is going to be. We get the music a couple days in advance. We try to do a little preparation. We get together for three hours and, you know, rehearse the parts and then try to bring it together. And at the end of three hours, we hug each other and cheer and go back home.

47:26And it's incredibly fulfilling, a huge, tremendous source of community. There's something very spiritual about singing with other people. Oh, yeah. And yeah, I'm hoping to devote as much time to that as I can now and in the future. That is an outstanding answer. That's an outstanding answer. Deb Grunfeld, thank you for coming on Fixable. My pleasure.

48:01If you're enjoying this show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

48:12Fixable is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris. And me, Frances Fry. This episode was produced by Trina Menino. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Ban Ban Chang, Daniela Baloresso, and Roxanne Hilash. Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard.

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