Unlocking Your Power at Work: The new rules of power

0:00With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.

0:33This episode is sponsored by Perplexity AI. How much of your workday actually goes toward making decisions? Now, how much goes towards just finding the information you need to make them? If you run an e-commerce business, your mornings probably start by bouncing between platforms, digging for data, and trying to figure out how it all fits together. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Perplexity Computer. It connects you to the tools you already use, giving you a complete picture of your business. Before you even wake up, it can send your team daily performance reports, pulling revenue, ad spend, margin, inventory, and more.

1:19And it doesn't just tell you what's happening. It gets to work. Rebuilding your CRM, creating your next ad campaign, or drafting your creator outreach. Perplexity Computer runs all the leading AI models and chooses the right one for each step of the project. For a limited time only, our listeners can try Perplexity Computer for free. Head to pplx.ai.tedbiz. That's pplx.ai.tedbiz to try computer today. Most AI tools are still answering questions, while Perplexity Computer is completing full projects. This episode is brought to you by Founders Mentality, a podcast in partnership with Bain & Company.

2:10If you listen to Ted Business for conversations about leadership, navigating change, and unlocking innovation, I have another show for your rotation. It's called Founders Mentality, the CEO Sessions. It gets into the real decisions behind some of today's leading executives and companies. Not just what a CEO should do, but who a CEO has to become to do it. In their recent episode with Laura Burrow, Group CEO of The Economist Group, you hear how she walked into a divided organization and a transformation project that had already cost the company millions and made the call to scrap it. Instead, she pushed for a new approach, one that could fund itself and bring the business back together.

3:00She and host Jimmy Allen break down that choice, how customer data reshaped the company's priorities, and how The Economist is thinking about transformation now in the age of AI. Follow Founders Mentality, the CEO sessions from Bain & Company, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey listeners, we're dropping another playlist this month, and this one is a new series from our friends over at Fixable. It's all about how to unlock your power at work. And if you're looking over your shoulder and thinking, power? Me? Well then, yeah, this series is exactly for you. Anne, Frances, and their esteemed panel of guests talk through all the ways you might be underestimating your own power.

3:47And you may be surprised at what they have to say. This playlist is a primer on how to get what you want, how to feel financially empowered, and how to empower others. I'm excited for you to listen. Anne and Frances are going to take it from here.

4:11This is Fixable, a show where we take the problems at work that feel unfixable and prove that they're not. I'm Anne Morris. And I'm Frances Fry. Frances, we are officially at the end of our Unlocking Your Power at Work series. what a ride. I've learned so much from all of our fabulous guests, and I am craving a beat to process it all. So I thought today you and I could reflect on what we're taking away from these conversations.

4:41Frances: You know, when I watch you coach people and you're always bringing them through their reflection, I see how beneficial it is to them. I'm really glad that we and our listeners can also go through a guided reflection. Yeah, I thought this was going to be a show, not just tell episode, and that we could create some space for reflection to get at what we've learned and to increase the chance that these conversations actually change our thinking and behavior going forward. And if history repeats itself, it will contain things that we never thought of before. Yes, that is part of the value of this.

5:18So let's talk, honey. This is a good time to mention that if you're listening and you haven't tuned in to the previous four episodes, we encourage you to go back and listen. Our fantastic guests included the iconic tech journalist Kara Swisher, Stanford power expert Deborah Grunfeld, financial guru Haley Sachs, better known as Mrs. Dow Jones, and former Best Buy CEO and current HBS professor Hubert Jolie. I mean, I don't even know what to say other than that quartet is it's so wonderful to visit with them and to learn from them. Yeah, it was a fantastic lineup. They were all a really good time and they challenged our assumptions about how power at work works.

6:10So let's get into it, Frances, and figure out what we learned.

6:24All right, Frances, I'm going to pull out a couple of themes that really stood out to me. And then I want to invite you to react.

6:32Frances: This is my favorite way to do reflection.

6:37Okay, Frances, I'm going to do all the work in this conversation.

6:40Frances: I prefer to call it guided reflection. You're just guiding all of us. And I'm really just, I'm just standing for the audience. Exactly. Okay, let's try it. So the core truth, the headline when I look across all of these discussions is this idea that in most situations, we have more power than we think we do. And in some ways, this is the premise of this show from day one. It's the premise of all of the work that we do to show up and not just convince people, but reveal to people that they have a tremendous amount of agency to change their experience of work, change their experience of teams, change their experience of the organization, their relationship with their boss, the meaning they get from work.

7:34We have all of this power to change tomorrow, whatever it is that we're feeling and experiencing today?

7:42Frances: You know, I find that we're in touch with our power when times are good, and we're really disconnected from it when times are bad. And so I love the reconnecting with it. So I think that is the wrapper for our entire conversation today. And I think the thread through all four of these conversations. So one thing that surprised me and that I'm still thinking about is this idea that a particularly strong power move is to tell the truth. And the reason this is exciting is that anyone can do it. Yeah. Because we are all experiencing reality. So Kara Swisher is, you know, a cool person to have in this conversation.

8:35She's got her own swagger and power in the world at this point in her career. But the scene that I keep going back to in her life is when she is just a young pup reporter and she starts looking around the office and is like, hey, this sexual harassment stuff isn't cool. Why don't you stop that? Why don't we talk to some people about it? Why don't we make this discussable? And this idea that when you tell the truth, it can have an impact and you can show up in that space with the power to make a difference. is then a thread she takes with her for the rest of her career.

9:12Frances: It's understanding the truth and then being the person to say it aloud, because somebody's got to say it. And we are usually in a hierarchy at the bottom of the hierarchy, see cub reporter. You know, it's such a surprise when even the cub reporter can be the one who does the telling. Yes. I'm still thinking about when Kara said, I used to think, what are they lying to me about? And one of the things I learned, and I think it's really a profound difference in being the better reporter, was what are they lying themselves about? This is the line that I think across the four episodes, I know this is one that's going to stay with me.

9:55It is such a powerful reflection tool for the world, but also for ourselves.

10:02Frances: I hear snippets of your coaching and one of the lines that I hear you say pretty regularly is we need to interrogate the stories we're telling ourselves. As someone who is very good at telling myself simple undiagnosed stories, it's really a big deal to go ahead and to tell ourselves the truth. But it does beg the question because it sounds like hard work. It is hard work. And it is hard work. So what do you win? But one of the things you win is power. Well, now that actually that would make the value proposition a lot more palatable. And this brings me to our conversation with Mrs. Dow Jones.

10:46And there is a core part of her message is the power of looking at our financial situation with clear eyes. It's so much about just switching your mindset and stopping to realize that no one has more going on than you. It's not like they, you know, were born with some sort of Warren Buffett gene that you don't have. You are all starting from zero. Like that is the starting point of the road to power.

11:17Frances: It's truth. Which is just astonishing to me because I waited so long to look honestly at my financial situation. I just like the amount of energy I spent not looking at it is incredible. It's incredible. It's less energy to look at it, but it does take that leap of faith that a good thing is going to happen on the other side of it. Yeah. And you get to move through the world with so much more agency when you are operating in reality. You and I are writing a book right now. Part of the writing process is figuring out what a chapter wants to be called. And yesterday I just renamed this chapter we're writing, Tell the Truth.

11:59And it was operate in reality. You know, like we've been playing with a bunch of different, but when you get it right, one of the things that's fun, when you get it right, it just fits you. You're done exploring. And it is tell the truth. And part of it is about designing organizations for reality. Like, how do you scale this idea of looking at your situation with clear eyes into the capability of teams and organizations? Well, then the organization looks a lot different. We're not surprised by volatility and disruption and uncertainty because we've designed the organization to absorb all of those conditions.

12:34We're not surprised when people are complex and they can't work 24 hours a day and they can't behave heroically every minute of that 24 hour today. We're designing for the reality and they have feelings. And when we send signals that they are less valuable to us or today than they were yesterday, they're going to react. You know, like we just we operate in reality. We tell the truth and we're no longer surprised. There's something really powerful about this pivot. Yeah.

13:03Frances: When I go for walks on the beach, I sometimes see the people with the metal detectors. They're just doing looking for the things. I actually think there is they're looking for a distortion field. I think that's one of the things you can do in your organization is just bring your version of the reality. Like, where are we denying reality? Just as a heat map, you don't even have to solve it. Just do the heat map. Where are we, you know, designing jobs for employees we wish we had as opposed to employees we actually have? Like just go through where are we denying reality and come up with that list.

13:41Frances: And then I think it will be a pretty fun experiment to go pick them off one by one. And by the way, that goes for you as an individual, too. Yeah. What are we lying to ourselves about in this company? And then I think of Uber turning around Best Buy and his first move is going to the front lines and finding out for himself what is really happening in this organization and then building from this foundation of truth. My job as the new CEO was super easy. Show up in several of the stores, ask these questions, listen intensively, make notes and do as I was told. And then I went back to headquarters and, of course, had a lot of intensive listening session with the different members of the team.

14:30And then we workshopped the diagnosis and then the plan. And as a result, you know, we had something that we all believed in. And it was a very people centric, people led approach.

14:41Frances: And what I love about it at the organization level, it's tell the truth. But before that is learn the truth. And Huber went to the people he could learn the most about the truth from. And that's the front line of an organization. And you and I know that that is not the place where we typically see the C-suite. They're learning, but not from the front line. And Huber went there first to find out what to do. Before we take a break, I want to leave listeners with some reactions from people out in the wild on what they think about power and work. Our producing team recently went out into New York City to ask a wide range of people about their relationships with power.

15:22Here's what they had to say. When you think of someone at work who you think uses their power well, like what are the qualities that they exhibit or what do they look like in those instances that you like look up to? Yeah, I mean, when I think of my boss, just being able to manage so many people at once, that's a lot of really good organizational skills you have to have. So making sure everyone else is happy and that you're not overwhelmed. I liked when someone that was successful that I looked up to that led by example, that wasn't bullish or wasn't leading by fear. That was really leading by example and wanting to guide me and make me better at what I was doing.

16:10They just keep themselves together, and they're able to keep their emotions without exploding or getting angry, things like that. Being self-assured, like having the confidence in yourself. When I think of people who are successful in their workplace, I just think they're not afraid. They're not afraid to ask for what they want, but work hard to get what they want as well.

16:56He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. State Fair food is getting smaller. And pricier. We'll have room for fried cookies. Okay, you never overspend on food. What's your deal? What's his deal? He went to Metro and got$450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free. And no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling.

17:36Only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate$40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days.

17:53All right, Frances, theme number two. I'm still thinking about the tension between personal power and freedom, the human need for personal power and freedom, and the human need for safety and security. So Deb Grunfeld comes at us with this provocative idea that my ego doesn't like. Power is a part of a system. A hierarchy is a way of organizing and coordinating cooperation within groups. It actually helps avoid violence. There's some part of me biologically that's actually craving hierarchy and the comfort of hierarchy and the idea of this strong PAC leader. But I also am very in touch with my need for agency, freedom of movement, and the power to create whatever future I want to create.

18:50And I'm still reconciling with this. And I think she gives us an interesting way to resolve it in the form of Hubert Jolie. so uber might be the punchline for all of these for every one of these but he is this strong wise benevolent pack leader yeah who has more power than me but he's not using it for himself he's using it for the greater good but then he also gives away power but there are rules for earning that power. You know, you have to qualify for it on some level. And then I think Deb circles back with this extraordinary word for it, which I still have not totally resolved based on previous definitions.

19:47And that word is grace. Yeah, that one's right up. That word is right up your alley.

19:50Frances: And we have thought about it and written about it before. You know, when Deb was talking, I was thinking of the kingdom of grace, and you are only allowed to enter the kingdom of grace if the power is not selfishly used. So if you have power and you use it for yourself, and we all know people who have power and use it for themselves, you get to do many things, but not claim the mantle of grace. Grace is when you have that and you are using it for others. And that's the starting point. And I think Hubert Jolie is a perfect example of that. You know, I watched in that conversation, you get triggered in a really wonderful way by her use of the word grace.

20:36Frances: The part that just totally activated me was pecking order and that chickens lay more eggs when there is a clear leader. We lay more eggs because we can relax into it. I don't have to waste all of these emotional calories wondering where am I? And I can just get on with the business of making the eggs. And I would like to say that that is my experience as a co-host of Fixable.

21:06I know, but what if I don't want to make the eggs?

21:11Frances: I actually don't think your power is in the manifestation of eggs. I think you can, any of your varieties, you can serve anything you want for breakfast. I don't think it's dependent upon the meal. I think, so you get to still do all of that variety seeking, but it is taking the responsibility for everyone else calming down, which just means we know there's a pack leader. You seem to be pretty good. Yeah. And I do think there's there's something about the strong, benevolent pack leader who sees their role as being responsible for the well-being of a pack. I do think that is a big unlock in teams and organizations and allowing people to relax into their roles.

22:01and you know i don't know enough about hens to to to do a proper proper metaphor here but let's there's a fat happy queen hen and i'm gonna brutalize this for all our animal lovers out there but here's what i want to believe that if that hen is really good at her job then they're gonna be a lot of... She gets weekends off. I suppose she gets weekends off. But not all the chickens have to be doing the same thing. Like, yes, a lot of chickens can relax in their job and we're going to make more eggs. But on those days when I want the cinnamon toast, she's going to be fine with it. Yes, I think so.

22:42She's going to be fine with it. And you know what we're going to call that? Grace. Yeah. I'm going to call everything Grace.

23:02Listeners, I'm sure you know someone who is struggling with how to take up more space at work or having a hard time rallying their team or colleagues. There's so much wisdom and actionable advice from each of our guests in this series. So share these episodes. All right, that's the end of my Fixable PSA. We'll be back in a moment.

23:24With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier. We'll have room for fried cookies. Okay, you never overspend on food.

24:02What's your deal? What's his deal? He went to Metro and got$450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free. And no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling. Only on Metro by T-Mobile. Free your number and activate$40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days. Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go.

24:40On this show, my expert guests and I explore how careers really unfold. Through change, through doubt, through the decisions that shape who we become over time. Because those moments aren't the exception. They are the work. Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcasts.

25:04Okay, Frances, we're going to pivot now to the third theme. In most of our everyday experiences of power, there can be a benefit to bringing a lightness and fluidity to these questions of who's up or who's down and where do I fit? If I go back to that conversation with Deb, She used the expression power up is appear more powerful and appear less powerful. Yeah. Depending on the goals. Yeah. And I was thinking of that scene where it's a big dude. He has a lot of authority. He's frustrated because he needs his people to take up more space and give him more information and give them give him all of their good ideas.

25:47But he has taken all of the oxygen in the room. Because they're better than his, but they're being so deferential because he's this big dude. Yeah. And he's the guy in charge. And we're acting like, you know, the human animal acts in those situations, which is we are saying nothing. So I was thinking. The stakes are too high.

26:04Frances: Yeah. What I loved about her power up and power down, it's essentially not saying I have one gear. I have like a whole array of gears and I'm going to select which one is best for the circumstance. And by the way, it's not which one is best for me to our earlier point. It's which one is better for the pack and the context. So if we go back to our big dude who's trying to get his team to actually tell him what they think. I keep going back to the moment of imagining Deb coaching this guy and he's trying different things and the class is giving him advice. You know, he was pulling up a chair and leaning in and scaring the shit out of everybody.

26:46The answer was for him to sit next to his team. He made himself physically smaller in that moment. And it wasn't a big deal. You know, this is also sounds like a leader, very comfortable in his own skin. Inviting the people around him to be more powerful does not diminish his value or intrinsic power himself. there's something about the the lightness around even workshopping okay what's my next move here that i think is instructive and that we can bring some lightness and oxygen and an experimental mindset to it yes okay last one francis the rules of power are not universal meaning identity matters, gender matters.

27:44And I'll just give you an example. I'll give you two that I keep thinking about on this and maybe we can figure out what we take from it. But Hubert's currency converter, when he was talking about evaluating his team for promotion, and he kept saying boys and girls, or he said it once. I don't know. It was so charming. I think there's something about this Frenchman who can get away with that. But he basically said, so the boys would come to me and tell me all the reasons they should be promoted. And then the girls would come and tell me all the reasons they shouldn't be promoted. And he's like, you know, you just have to use the currency converter.

28:20I loved it so much. The metaphor is so charming. And again, there's like a light, like there's just this practical lightness to it. Like our experiences of power different. The rules are different depending on who we are walking into the room, who we think we are, the story we have in our head, but also the story someone else has. But also my experience has been, yes, that's the starting place. And then 15 minutes in, we're into a different story because the human animal also adapts. And I really liked, I don't know, there was something about that moment that felt hopeful to me. It felt hopeful to me.

28:56Yeah.

28:56Frances: It's so good. And by the way, the currency converter, it doesn't just go on gender or race, national status or race. I, you know, whether or not you're neuro spicy, whether or not you're an extrovert or an introvert, like there are all kinds of things that we just want to account for. Like, imagine if you always promoted the person who spoke first. It'd be crazy, except for most conversations are influenced most by the person who speaks first, unless you have a currency converter. I loved when he said it. I find that to be very handy. The currency converter, in my mind, lets you get much closer to a meritocracy than whatever uniform we're wearing when we walk in the door.

29:47Yeah, I love that. It's kind of where do we set the goalpost in this moment? And maybe we get to set the goalposts differently in a different moment, but it seems like it is awareness, which maybe brings us back to kind of operating in reality or telling the truth. So awareness of self in that moment, but also awareness of the other person and their experience of power that they're bringing into the room. I was thinking about Kara's observation, which we have also observed that there are a lot of incredible women in COO roles in Silicon Valley and beyond Silicon Valley, but that pattern is particularly pronounced there.

30:25And I think part of what Deb is here to teach us is that that's a very rational pattern. You know, and it's not just a story of oppression. You know, it's also like, that's a pretty liberty, pretty awesome place to be in a hierarchy. You get the story of liberation, almost all the status with farm and all the agency and all agency with much less exposure

30:54Frances: and risk attached to it there's no snipers to the CEO for the most part you were you know far fewer yeah and these rules are going to change all the time and these categories are going to become less meaningful all the time and we're going to get to this beautiful state of meritocracy because it's in everybody's best interest and we all want it and in the meantime you know and you and I have some version of this conversation all the time. In the meantime, how do we navigate these dynamics? And there's some of these dynamics, they are literally cellularly embedded. These are like rules of evolution that we have inherited from our ancestors.

31:38And, you know, we just got to account for them. We got to account for them in our own behavior and the behavior of other people. And maybe it's not that deep, as our son would say. Maybe I just got to get out my handy pocket currency converter and like run my experience through the currency converter. And maybe I have one that I use on myself before I like do something impulsive.

32:04Frances: And I do think, you know, people want to be fully considered, but we don't want to be fully considered in the same way as one another. And that is. What do you mean by that? I don't want somebody to consider me with the same set of techniques that they consider you. Like I just taught a beautiful case on the Golden State Warriors and Steve Kerr is the coach and he's such a great coach. One of the reasons is because he coaches Draymond Green very differently than he coaches Steph Curry. He gets the best out of both of them, but he doesn't use the same pattern of techniques. It's naive to think we should be using one set of techniques because here's what I know.

32:37Frances: If you use one set of techniques, it benefits some disproportionately. So using the same set of techniques is in and of itself unfair. And sometimes we do it out of fairness, but it turns out it's to consider everyone fully is the only true fair thing to do. I got a word for that, Frances. Grace. All right, Frances, to close this out, what is one thing you are doing differently because of these conversations? well obviously acting with more grace and then i get to define grace in 87 different ways but on this podcast you do yes i will tell you one the one subset of grace that i'm doing differently which is i have been sheepish about having power lately just you know people relax in the presence of a PAC leader.

33:37Frances: And so it's not the power per se, it's who are you pointing the power at? And so if you're, as long as the power is on behalf of others, have at it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And not pointing the power at, but what are you using the power for? Yeah. And maybe that's the same thing. Maybe that's that. No, I think it's the noble. You're Right. We're using it for something bigger than ourselves is what you teach me a lot. And we're doing it on behalf of our team. Yeah. I love that unlock for you. That's really exciting. How about you? The one I have used is the imaginary headdress. Oh, yeah. Imaginary headdress.

34:24If you're walking into a room where you do, it is your goal to project more authority. and it's, I think about it once a day at least. Ladies and gents, just put that - Very heavy. Put that very heavy Vegas headdress, feathered showgirl headdress on, lift that chin. You got this. All right, that's it. Thanks everyone. And if you're enjoying this show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

35:06Fixable is a podcast brought to you by TED and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris. And me, Frances Fry. This episode was produced by Trina Menino. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloreso, and Roxanne Hilash. Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard.

35:55Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free and no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling. Only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate$40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs.

36:28Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. It's easy to know you want to make a change in your life, but it is hard to actually do it. How to be a better human from Ted is a podcast for when self-help feels too daunting or maybe even unrealistic or just not for you. I'm Chris Duffy, the host of How to be a Better Human, and trust me, I do not have it all figured out. But join me as I talk to experts about actually attainable ways we can try to improve our lives, whether it's facing fears, setting boundaries, cleaning your house without feeling like a failure or all sorts of other topics.

37:12Find How to be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.