The fleeting euphoria of success | Debbie Millman

0:00Debbie Millman: Mod.com is changing the way people battle excessive fatigue. Ever hit a wall in the middle of the day and a third coffee just doesn't do it anymore? Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Modafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Modafino works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate, and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy.

0:43Debbie Millman: To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider, and if approved, ModAlert ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M-O-D dot com.

1:25people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen. Hi, this is Becca Moore from For the Girls and this podcast is sponsored by Aerie, where you can find the right bra in 59 sizes, soft fabrics and good fits. If your bra strap is digging into your shoulder right now, it's the wrong bra. We get so used to being in pain as girls that we forget it doesn't have to be this way. Your clothes should not hurt. I got the point where I stopped wearing bras altogether. And now my life has changed, you guys. The only bras I have in my dresser right now are Aerie, and I'm not kidding.

1:59Aerie's on a mission to make you feel good, and that starts with your bra. Your bra should hold you in, not back. Visit aerie.com to find the right bra for you.

2:08Debbie Millman: In 2021, I was presented with a pretty unique opportunity, which was to be the stress coach for Chris Hemsworth, yes, Thor, on a National Geographic docuseries. And it was a true whirlwind. We prepped for days and then we taped for three days. And it was all very lights, camera, action. Let me tell you, it is not a normal work day for me to have a makeup artist attending to me. And then it was over. The filming wrapped. I went back to the hotel. I was alone. And I thought, what was that? It wasn't that it was a bad experience. it was just that the culmination of it felt so anticlimactic. And a little bit of depression set in, a little bit of confusion, like, what happens now?

3:00Debbie Millman: I'm Madoop Akinola. This is TED Business, a podcast from TED. Our speaker today, multi-hyphenate Debbie Millman, has interviewed hundreds of creatives on her podcast, Design Matters. In all of those conversations, she discovered a common thread. The feeling of accomplishment after a project is done is fleeting. And what really sustains a person is the act of creation itself. In this talk, she tells us to stop chasing external validation and to learn to enjoy the work. Then after the talk, I'll give some other tips on beating back post-project despair. But first, a quick break.

3:48Debbie Millman: This episode is brought to you by Paka. You know those pieces you'd wear every day if you could get away with it? For me, it's my Paka hoodie and crew sweater. Made with the same care and unmistakable softness, Paka creates outdoor and lifestyle apparel from alpaca fiber, one of the most sustainable natural fibers on the planet. Their signature hoodie is unbelievably soft, warmer than wool, yet still breathable enough to wear throughout the day. Each one is made from start to finish in Peru and comes with an Inca ID hand-woven by artisans. A little piece of tradition connecting you closer to where your clothing comes from.

4:29Debbie Millman: And guess what? More than 250 ,000 people have already picked up theirs. Once you feel the quality of PACA, you'll understand why people keep coming back. To grab your PACA hoodie, go to www.pacaapparel.com. That's www.pakaapparel.com.

4:55Hey, this is Elise Hu, host of TED Talks Daily. This episode is supported in part by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

5:35Debbie Millman: And now Debbie Millman takes the TED stage. For the last 20 years, I've interviewed hundreds of people about their motivation to create, their ambition, and what it feels like to be whole and at home in the world on my podcast, Design Matters. in one episode several years ago i interviewed a famous painter about a recent exhibition a show that had taken years to create given the magnitude of the accomplishment i asked her how long the feeling of pride lasted after opening night she looked at me she smiled sheepishly and stated, about 11 minutes. I thought she was joking, but she wasn't. Since that interview, I've come to realize she's not the only one whose achievements feel ephemeral and fleeting, not by a long shot.

6:45Debbie Millman: Over the past four years, in addition to my interviews, I've conducted my own version of a Proustian questionnaire for print magazine. Hundreds of creative people have answered the same 10 questions about their life and their work. Given the response I had with the famous painter, I included this question. How long does the feeling of pride and joy at accomplishing something last for you. As I collected my responses to the questionnaire and reviewed all of my transcripts of my interviews and conversations, I saw how up close for so many people, the pride and joy of accomplishment dissipates almost as quickly as it manifests.

7:39Debbie Millman: I heard it in the words of a poet who shared that the high of publishing a book lasted until she sent in her final manuscript. I heard it in the voice of a designer who admitted he felt restless the very night of an awards ceremony. And I heard it in the plaintive confession of a musician who told me, The only time I feel at peace is when I'm in the studio. Not on stage, not after. Only while I'm making. Another confession. I've felt this way my whole life. After publishing a book, after mounting an exhibition, after a TED Talk, after what should feel like I've reached the pinnacle, moments I've dreamed of for decades.

8:34Debbie Millman: The joy evaporates within days, sometimes hours, and once terrifyingly within minutes. And then, for so many people, what happens next? The quest to create, to make something bigger, more ambitious, or more challenging begins again. I found this all utterly confounding, and I became consumed with the question of why. Why does the feeling of creative achievement slip away almost as soon as we grasp it? Why are we in such a rush to want something more? Is it ego, ambition, addiction to attainment? We're living in a culture now obsessed with achievement. And we measure that success with metrics, likes, views, followers, awards, trophies, sales, and we celebrate the hustle.

9:37Debbie Millman: We glorify the grind, and we equate visibility with value. Now, after 20 years of interviewing more than 1 ,000 people, I've come to believe that something else is at play. When I look at the creative people I admire most, I see people answering a calling. A calling that says create, shape, build, imagine, express. Not necessarily to be seen, but to be. What if the actual reward is not accomplishment, but the act of creating? Think about it. The finished products and trappings of creative accomplishment are often seen as the goal. And if we haven't yet reached mastery, we're told we have to fake it until we make it.

10:35Debbie Millman: Pretend. But I don't think people should have to fake anything. Instead, I'd rather make it until I make it. You see, I believe that the act of making is like oxygen. When the making stops, it becomes hard to breathe. Now, I admit I still struggle with this. I crave recognition. I still measure myself by external markers of success. And I'm still racing towards multiple finish lines. But I'm learning, albeit slowly, that these moments will never, ever be enough. They can't be, because in the end, they represent a certain scarcity, while making is the actual abundance. Several years ago, I interviewed David Lee Roth, the swashbuckling former frontman of the rock group Van Halen.

11:37Debbie Millman: I first became a fan of the band in the mid-1980s after the release of their five-time platinum album 1984. The record sold over 12 million copies, produced four singles, peaked at number two on the Billboard charts, and was only held back from the number one position by Michael Jackson's thriller. I interviewed David Lee in 2019 and asked him what it felt like to reach the peak of the tallest mountain in his storied career. He paused and was reflective as he recalled the experience, and what he said next really surprised me. He told me, you have to be really careful when you reach that peak, as it's always cold, you're often alone, and there's only one direction to go.

12:36Debbie Millman: And it occurred to me right then and there that I didn't want to peak until the day before I die. And I wanted to take my time slowly walking up that mountain, making new things all along the way. So the next time you finish anything, a book, a poem, a song, a painting, try not to despair. That fleeting feeling of accomplishment isn't a flaw. It's part of the creative condition. Instead, heed the calling, continue to make things, and maybe, just maybe, take your time becoming the creative being that you want to be. Thank you.

13:40Debbie Millman: Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded, and you crash. Modafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Modafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate, and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy. To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider, and if approved, Mod Alert ships straight to your door.

14:23Debbie Millman: Go to mod.com to get started. That's M-O-D dot com. If you've got a teenager, it's time to have the talk. You know, about investing. With the new Schwab Teen Investor account, teens can gain hands-on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com slash teen. Hi, this is Becca Moore from For the Girls, and this podcast is sponsored by Aerie, where you can find the right bra in 59 sizes, soft fabrics, and good fits. If your bra strap is digging into your shoulder right now, it's the wrong bra.

15:03We get so used to being in pain as girls that we forget it doesn't have to be this way. Your clothes should not hurt. I got to the point where I stopped wearing bras altogether. And now my life has changed, you guys. The only bras I have in my dresser right now are Aerie, and I'm not kidding. Aerie's on a mission to make you feel good, and that starts with your bra. Your bra should hold you in, not back. Visit Aerie.com to find the right bra for you.

15:31Debbie Millman: That was Debbie Millman at TED 2025. I'm struck by what David Lee Roth told Debbie about reaching the peak of your career, how it's often lonely and cold up there. In my experience, the best way to fend off the post-project blues is to celebrate with the people you worked with, to share the win with the people who followed your creative journey. After we wrapped shooting with Chris Hemsworth, the whole team had two nights of dinners together. We laughed, we reminisced, we vented. We just weren't ready to say goodbye because we had shared this intense creative experience together that even our friends and partners couldn't fully understand.

16:14Debbie Millman: I take the same approach in my academic work. When a paper we've toiled over for years finally gets accepted at a journal, my collaborators and I planned some kind of celebration together, a festive meal, a walk in the park. One time, we even had a spa day. That type of gratitude and celebration is directed outwards, but there are also quiet ways to show it for yourself. Like when I got tenure, I put that day, February 23rd, in my calendar as a recurring event. That way, each year on that day, I can be reminded of my past self and all the meaningful experiences I've had, even as my present self keeps looking ahead.

16:59Debbie Millman: And there's nothing quite as creatively inspiring as that. That's it for today. TED Business is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Hannah Kingsley Ma, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact-checked by Julia Dickerson. Special thanks to Maria Ladeus, Farah DeGrunge, Daniela Balarezo, Tansika Sangmanivang, and Roxanne Heilash. I'm Madupa Akinola. Thanks for listening.

17:32Hi, this is Becca Moore from For the Girls, and this podcast is sponsored by Aerie, where you can find the right bra in 59 sizes, soft fabrics, and good fits. If your bra strap is digging into your shoulder right now, it's the wrong bra. We get so used to being in pain as girls that we forget it doesn't have to be this way. Your clothes should not hurt. I got to the point where I stopped wearing bras altogether. And now my life has changed, you guys. The only bras I have in my dresser right now are Aerie, and I'm not kidding. Aerie's on a mission to make you feel good, and that starts with your bra.

18:00Your bra should hold you in, not back. Visit Aerie.com to find the right bra for you.

18:04Debbie Millman: This message comes from Jackson. Taxes aren't something you can only think about once a year. With investments, planning for tax days year-round. Fortunately, Jackson offers tax-efficient products. Visit Jackson.com for more information on how our products can make your tax bill a little bit less painful. Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Incorporated, Jackson National Life Insurance Company, Lansing, Michigan, and Jackson National Life Insurance Company of New York. Purchase New York. If you've got a teenager, it's time to have the talk. You know, about investing. With the new Schwab Teen Investor account, teens can gain hands-on investing experience and build positive money habits.

18:41Debbie Millman: It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com slash teen.